₦airaland Forum

SapeleGuy:
They don't have a choice, if they don't want the country to scatter then they need to forget power for the next 16 years. If the country scatters the north has the most to lose, in order to survive they need to embrace fairness and equity.

Area, I hail O!

Who will scatter the country? the south east or the south south?. Because the Yoruba are still savouring the sweet eight years they just had. If June 12 could not break the country, then i wonder what will.

naijaking1:
I agree with you on most of your points, expcept the one about choosing Yar'dua. There is no intelligence report that could have accurately foretold who would die first: OBJ or Yar'sua.

Well thanks for agreeing with me. But on the issue of yaradua's health, believe me most people close to him were aware of his health complication, an inlaw of mine who knew him from college days told us that he can bet that yara dua would not make it through his four years. Remember most Nigerians were apprehensive of the health of Yara dua, during the campaigns. He was even hospitalized a few days to the elections.
It is relatively easy to predict someone mortality probability given  his medical conditions (especially the person has a terminal disease) couple with the stress the person is expected to be subjected to.

mekusxxx:
Did Obasanjo really do the North's bidding when he got into power? The answer is NO. What makes you think Ekueme would not have even been the real northern stooge?

How can you say that OBJ did not do the bidding of the North?. Although OBJ got ambitious after his first term and attempted to wrestle power from Nigeria's main power block, he essentially accomplished what he was selected to do.

The followings were the demands of the north on OBJ

1. To make sure the defense ministry remains in northern control; I cannot remember appointing any minister of defense from the south or east

2. To keep the Petroleum ministry in Northern hands; OBJ was smart here, he refused to appoint any minister of petroleum during his tenure.

3.  To make sure finance ministry is controlled by Northerners: Here I must admit OBJ reneged, because after the first term, he brought in an easterner with intimidating credentials. But after a little bit of political maneuver during his last year, the ministry returned to the North.

4. To hand over power back to them after 4 years ( after which the heat of June 12 would have died down): But my man OBJ got ambitious and fought and got a second term and even attempted a third term.

After OBJ's terms expired he dutifully handed power back to where it belonged. But i suspect he was cynical and mischievous by identifying the sickest among them and handing over to him. I am sure he had security reports detailing the health condition of Yara dua. it was public knowledge that Yaradua was terminally ill even when he was governor.

So we are in a dilemma  today, if yara dua is unable to continue, with the owners of power (the north) allow any other region to rule?

We should pray that somehow Yara dua some how makes it to 2011, so that the owners of power in Nigeria can perform their magic of selecting a replacement.

viaro:
I guess the very same thing about you and some other atheists - you think far too much of yourself than you realize. That is not a smart way to discuss your ideas, especially where you are only sounding words and making very little meaning, if at all. I just would have hoped that your readers were not that gullible to swallow your musings so uncritically!

When i said theists think too much of them self, i do no mean it in a derogatory way. If you read the sentence in context of the paragraph, you would see i was referring to the egocentric views of theists that believes themself or their religion or their race or their specie or their planet is the reason for the universe.

viaro:
However, I should have been silent and not wish to even show face in this thread. Much of what many people are applauding here is awful! The moment I saw the musings about the brain and all its complexities, I sensed many people would just trail off with assertions that are all too often taken for granted, because nobody cares to check them out!

Here is one such awful statement to your credit:

What?!? Where have you been as to make such unguarded statements? The "10% use of the brain" is pure myth - please retire that cheap and redundant tale. Google is your friend - use it, and you may surprise yourself about the 'common knowledge' to the contrary! [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10%25_of_brain_myth]Wikipedia[/url] states it simply: "10% of brain myth".

I would please beg you to go back and reread my post on this subject, because i try to explain my assertions as plainly as possible, giving examples to illustrate my points. If you have any disagreements  with my postulations or examples, point them out, so i can review it.

Let me go into some technical details of the complexity of the brain and why i say that we cannot even use up to 10% of it capability.

Neurobiologists believe that neurons are the active elements in brain function. For every neuron in the brain there are approximately 10 glial cells (from the Greek word Glue), which provide support for the neural structure. An average neuron has between 1,000 - 10,000 synapses which are links or connection to other synapses. If each synapse behaves digitally, to a single on and off or yes and no respond to a simple query, the total number of 0n/0f answer or bits of information that the brain can contain is approximately 10¹⁰ x 103 == 10¹³ or 10 trillion bits.

If the human brain had only one Neuron having only one synapse, we would capable of only two states - like on and off, maybe asleep and awake only. If we had one neuron with two synapses, we would be capable of 4 states, that is 2² = 4. So three synapses would be 2³ = 8 states. But the human brain is characterized by millions of neurons at lest 1013 synapses. So the total number of state possible by a human brain is at least (2¹⁰) ¹³ ( 2 raised to the power 10 raised to the power 13). This is an infinitely large number far, far greater than all the elementary particles (electrons and protons) in the entire universe, which is roughly (2¹⁰ )³ ( 2 raised to the power 10 raised to the power 3).

It is because of this immense number of possible configuration of the human brain that no two humans can have similar state of mind or consciousness. Also all possible mental states can not be attained , and in fact there must be an enormous number of mental states or consciousness that had never been attained in the history of mankind.

It has been demonstrated again and again that most people cannot utilized the information storage (memory) capability of the brain even up to 10%. It has been demonstrated by hypnosis that a person is capable of remembering everything that had ever happened to him or her since birth and hypnotists and psychologists have used hypnosis to bring back some repressed childhood memories which the person had forgotten but still somehow affect the individual psychologically. But how many event in our lives do we actually remember? If we could remember up to 10% of our brain capability, we would never fail an exam in our life.

A good example is your PC, A lot of us posses dual core Pentium M with a processing speed up to 3 Gz, with a hard disc of between 120 - 250 Giga bit and 1024 RAM, and the only use to which we put all that power is word processing,chatting, basic internet operations like emailing, downloading music, etc. The operations a basic Pentium 3 with 512 Ram and 60 Gig hard disc can handle well. If i say most people do not use up to 50% capacity of their PC, would the argument in your web link hold?

viaro:
And that up there you have about "thought wave hypothesis" may sound interesting; but it is quite another thing from "extra sensory perception", ESP. Many people who talk about thought wave hypothesis tend to see things only in terms of a materialistic spectacle, in which case it is hardly surprising that you would have re-defined ESP to mean 'an extension of the physical'. That just eases things off so that it then becomes even easier to not deal with the original issue (in this case ESP), because no one would have to remember calling your attention back to let ESP be ESP and not what you want to turn it into!

The thought wave hypothesis, while interesting to those who applaud it, has a basic flaw. From what you talked about with mention of electromagnetic waves, it is apparent that you may not have carefully considered the wave-particle duality in light. In the developing technology of neurofeedback/biofeedback and EGG (electroencephalogram), these stuff are often talked about, with all the paraphernalia of electrical activity of the brain. However, (and perhaps this is where you ought to slow down), ESP is a different matter altogether!

ESP, extra sensory perception, is commonly understood as 'perception or communication skills that are beyond ordinary human senses, supernatural insight', in which case some sources (such as Skepdic) extend it to include telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, and, in recent years, clairaudience. The question that some are wondering about is this: where does your "thought wave hypothesis" fit into what is precisely ESP (and not re-defined as you did with the 'extension of the physical')?? Where does "wave" come into ESP?

People should be careful when they talk in a public forum. You don't jumble identities and meanings so in such a slapdash manner, re-define terms that are far removed from their precise meaning in order to draw unrelated illations upon them. Doing so is to gull your audience - many of who just go along with your hypothesis uncritically.

By the way, I thought I should leave you a link to a popular work by J. B. Rhine which tried to establish ESP as a scientific fact - http://www.williamjames.com/Science/ESP.htm. Enjoy.

Now about Extra Sensory perception. I would like to first thank you for the sight you provided, it was very informative. I had done extensive studies in the past about people like Uri Geller, but there are others i had not been aware of.

I think your link is in agreement with my "thought wave hypothesis". The make use of words like "altered state of consciousness as a means of gaining psychic information", how does that differ significantly from what i am saying? They also talk about ESP signals and about telepathic senders to send telepathic messages and telepathic receivers to receive such messages.

When i talk believe me i talk from personal experience and after much thought and research of such experience. When i was in IFE, i was know to conduct such telepathic experiments and i had above average success most of the time. I was even thought of as a crank.

Most of us have had telepathic experience one time or the other in our lives, and i would be surprised if you had not had one (although most people might attribute it to one religious experience or the other). It usually occurs among people who are emotionally attached.

I had explained some of the details of my "thought waves", but if you want more details, then i would have to take you through the field of pure physics.

Our main disagreement is the term "extra sensory perception" While you think it has to do with spirits and souls and ghosts, i see it as perception above the range of energies we are accustomed to. Let me use one more analogy; the ears of children less than 16 are able to perceive range of frequencies a bit higher than adults, there is a particular frequency that is clearly audible to teenagers but completely silent to adults, so Nokia has used that knowledge to make a phone only children can hear its ringtone. so the children's phones can be blaring in the class room without their teachers being aware. Now that is a crude example of Extra Sensory Perception, especially if you get the occasional adult that can perceive that frequency.

you will also see from your link, that extra sensory perception occurs at particular state of mind or consciousness, which most of us are able to attain normally, so hypnosis is used to alter the person to the required state of consciousness.  

I still implore you to read my post thoroughly and compare it to the ESP site and tell me if you notice any contractions.

Brother viaro,

I am in trouble as i seem to have drawn your wrath, and i know you are heavy weight in terms of intellectual capacity, So i would have to take time to respond appropriately. I would have to study your arguments and the sites you provided before i can offer an appropriate response and I am a indisposed now. so my response would come in later in the day. But i still stand by my assertions, namely;

An average human uses less that ten percent of the potential of the brain and that the brain is capable of detecting energies outside the normal range we are familiar with, and that is what i term ESP!

Will be back later.

@ Deep sight,

Since you allude that "Physical things do not in themselves possess the quality of being and cannot be an end in themselves for any purposes" then you should please tell us what the end and purpose of physical things is.

The thought wave hypothesis is my personal hypothesis to explain " extra sensory perception". By extra sensory i do not mean any thing beyond the physical, it means an extension of the physical. 

As i explained earlier thought waves is similar to very low energy electromagnetic waves. Our brains function mainly by employing electricity and electricity under specific conditions can produce electromagnetic waves (that's how radio waves are produced), and another brain that is receptive to those energies can detect them. It is similar to the heat energy your body produces by the action of metabolism of glucose and oxygen, a very sensitive (receptor) instrument can detect that heat from miles away

When you asked what organ act as receptors to these energies (thought waves), i tell you that certain parts of the brain itself can act as receptors and other parts act as processors. A good example is the astronauts that ventured into the high energy radiation belts - The Van Allen Radiation belt, they report seeing flashes of light even with their eyes closed. So which organ would you say is transmitting the high energy radiation to the brain, except you propose that the radiations are not physical.

Have you heard of birds that can navigate to specific locations after flying through thousands of miles of featureless oceans, they seem to posses an inbuilt compass. Now are you saying that the magnetic waves followed by such birds are not physical and can you identify the organs responsible for the ability. The salmon has the unique ability to locate its birth place after living its entire life in oceans thousands of miles away. It also goes back to its birth place to die. Even insect like bees posses such abilities to some extent, and there are reasons that the human brain posses some of that ability although very weak.  I am only trying to make you realize that the brain due to its infinite complexity has not been fully explored or exploited.

You have still not answered the question of whether every organ that is employed by every living creature for responding to external stimuli is tool for your substantiate inner being or beings.

Deep sight, you and other theists think too much of yourself. You feel the universe was created just because of you and without you, the universe cannot survive. Well i have news for you all, you are insignificant in the universe. If you die today (God forbid) the nation will hardly miss you, If your specie should become extinct today, the earth will trod along as if nothing has happen as it did after hundreds of thousands of other species became extinct in the past, If the earth with all the living things contained should perish today, the solar system will continue in its normal routine, If the solar system should blow up today, the over 100 billion other suns in our milky way galaxy would hardly notice, and if our entire galaxy should be destroyed, the universe would not notice.

So quit thinking that without life on earth or elsewhere the universe cannot exist.

Deepsite, my subscription expires by 9:00PM, so i could not continue with the debate last night.

You will notice that i do not like going into long drawn out debates on religious or spiritual matters because, often it will be like debating in different languages on different subject matter but i will oblige you on this one.

Deep Sight:
Right. Might i ask you two to re-focus.

You are busy talking about the capacities of the brain. That is very well understood. But you need to respond one way or the other to my suggestion that it is a TOOL which man uses to APPREHEND the world. What say you to that?

There is no argument that the brain is a tool that man uses to apprehend and comprehend the world, just like the leg is a tool for moving around the world. Our point of conflict, is what constitutes a man. So explain to me what is your definition of a man and if it includes something outside his physical being.

Deep Sight:
1.   People who have near - death experiences in which the brain has already shut down (they are classified as brain-dead i.e: absolute zero neural activity and heart stopped for the period) would not be able to return to consciousness reporting visions they had in such a state. You may want to do some brief research on the well-documented cases of such near-death experiences.

This is the problem i have with religious people, you use conflicting terms and contradicting statements. You said near death experiences and in the same sentence you said they are classified as brain dead. Someone is either dead or not dead, and nobody had ever been reported to have resurrected from the dead (outside Jesus). So if they were not truly dead, then it means the person experiencing near dearth experience was unconscious and there was still some level of neural activities. I can explain what death means( at least medically) if you want. Clinical death is a process that usually starts from the brain, caused usually by a shortage of fuel to the brain - oxygen or glucose. If the brain dies every other organ of the body follows suit and the body starts to decompose immediately. The  other organs starts to die one by one and the last organs to die are the hair and the nails. So if a body is not decomposing, it means the the brain is not truly dead.

Deep Sight:
2.   It is also very well documented that some people have dreams about future events, which turn out to play out in startling detail. This has been my personal experience from a very young age right up till today. Might you want to suggest to me in what part of the brain such details of future events were stored?

Please refer me to those well documented sites or other resources where i can get full details, because i have been researching such claims since my teenage years and all i get are "revelation like" predictions. I even went to library in 1983 to unearth the complete work of Nostradamus but you could not make sense of any prediction until an event happens and then they would say the event was predicted by Nostradamus according to some vague interpretations of some hidden passages. Are you saying you dream of the future? is it unique to people like you or is a latent ability of some people or some religion? I dismiss all suggestion that someone can predict the future because most major events in the world or even our individual lives happen without any warnings. Can such people including you predict who will win the world cup, or better still the next direction of the DAX or dollars against the pound or even the next price of oil. Such predictions would be highly welcomed.

Deep Sight:
3.   How would you explain telepathy, psycho-kinesis, intuition and other human paranormal phenomena?

Believe it or not, i have not foreclosed the possibility of telepathy and intuition, but psycho-kinesis - NO.

There was a phase in my life when i could consider myself a deist (even though i did not know it then). I believed in spirituality and read and practiced spirituality as much as i could. I read all the books of Rampa, read works of Carlos costadinos and so many other spiritual books. I practice telepathy (and even had partial success), faith healing, aura sighting, phychometry, chrystal and water bowl gazing, meditation and breathing exercises and even astral travel. So when i talk, i want you to realize i know exactly what i am talking about. All these coupled with my strong science background made be realize the truth the way few people can ever grasp. The brain (along with the spinal cord) is the only organ that can process information, other organ like the eyes, tongues ears, etc are only receptors of information.

now about telepathy and intuition, i know that our brains under certain states can act as receiver and transmitter of thought waves. Thought waves being similar to very weak radio waves. It is similar to the way normal radio waves are modulated, transmitted recieved demodulated and decoded by our radio or Tv. So under certain states of mind a person can transmit thought waves and also under another state of mind someone other brains can demodulate and decode the thought waves and thereby see or hear or feel another person's thought.If you remember a whale can send very week sound waves across 3,000 miles of ocean( which cannot be detected by other animals or even human instruments)and another on the opposite end can sense(hear) and decipher the signal.

When i was younger, i could start a song in my head and my best friend would complete the song aloud, we would look at each other and laugh. I also know there are case where two people seperated by kilometers feel the same pain when pain is only inflicted on one. The effects of this thought transfer is possible through any of the five senses, meaning sight, smell, taste, etc can be felt by someone else miles away. The only problem is that the conditions under which such state of mind could be triggered is poorly understood and so its occurence is highy unpredictable and unreliable. The Russians and the Bulgarians carried out extensive research on such phenomena but discarded it after many years due to its unpredictability and unreliability.

Deep Sight:
Who is tasting that sweet? You make it appear as though the neurons for their own pleasure are tasting the sweet. The man is tasting the sweet through the faculty of the tongue and messages sent thereby to his brain and processed therein.

And who is hearing that music. Again you both make it appear as though the neurons arte having a party drinking wine and shagging babes inside the brain as they enjoy that music. That is absurd of course. Again, we see that the MAN is hearing and enjoying the music THROUGH the faculty of the ear and messages passed to the brain thereby and processed therein.

Who is appreciating that superb piece of art by Leonardo Da Vinci? I suppose the neurons are also art gurus, and are really enjoying the oil on canvass. Of course the man, through the faculty of the eyes, and messages sent back to the brain, -  is appreciating that painting.

Now the fact that the brain works in concert with other body parts proves the point conclusively.

Why do you have a pair of eyes – so that the brain can see – or so that YOU can see?

Perhaps when you have sex, the neurons in your brain are gasping oooo and aaaah, because they just love it? No, the neurons help the man to experience the sensation.

So my trouble is that you guys make it appear as though the brain is a creature of its own, and all the parts of the body are its crutches.

All the senses and the parts of your body are evidence that a being needs to apprehend the world around it. And the brain is the faculty through which we do that.

As such, if you take substances that affect the brain, of course, your mind -state will be affected. Go pour acid into the brain-box of your car – of course the state of the car will be very badly affected. That does not make the brain-box the car, It is a tool vial which the whole vehicle functions.

Thus I make this rational contention to you: wherever a complex system exists and delivers a function or functions, that system is not the recipient in itself of the functions.

Digest this, and then disprove it if you can.

A crude example is this: car = complex system. Car does not exist to drive ITSELF around for ITS own purposes. It exists to ferry MAN around.

Again: A Computer. Complex System. Does it exist to please itself, or process information for MAN?  ? ?

The brain is very much like a super computer – it is the ultimate information processor. For whom, or for what, does it process all that information? For itself?

I hope you are getting an idea of how possibly ludicrous the idea you are advancing is: That the brain does all these things to please itself!

IT IS GLARING that such systems work to support something else: namely the BEING.

Your are disputing my argument that the brain is responsible for every possible human experience but you did not provide you own alternative.

So let me ask you who is the being gasping oooo and aaaah, when you are having sex? Who is the art guru appreciating that superb piece of art by Leonardo Da Vinci? is it your deist God or your spirit. Does the same spirit that need sex, or art, or music,or cigar or even water to survive?
your brain-box example is a poor one, if you poor acid in a brain box you have completely destroyed the brain box, you have to buy another brain-box and your car will work normally and not know the difference, if you pour alcohol in the brain, the state of mind of the person will be altered in one way, if your pour insulin it will be altered in another way and if you poor testosterone it will be altered yet in another way.

Furthermore are you suggesting that this external being is unique to humans or to all living things, because all living things responds to external stimuli, one way or the other. Are you also suggesting that when a cat is having sex, there is a being outside the cat going meaooon purrrrr. Same for the butterfly savouring the sweet smell of nectar.

Maybe the car example will make sense to the creationist who believed we were assembled by a certain super beings or a group of super being to provide service for them. But we evolutionist believe we evolved inline with the ultimate quest of the universe,  first of ensure our individual survival and when that end becomes inevitable, then we strive to ensure our group survival and when that end becomes inevitable, then our specie survival and finally our planetary survival. So i can say we exist; brain and all to ensure survival.

This contrived external being superimposed on us responsible for consciousness, has been the bane of all religions and beliefs of ancient man. One could understand as the full extent of the brain and human anatomy was not understood. It was even thought then like consciousness resides in the heart, some postulated that consciousness was external to us. But after modern medicine has shown that consciousness is as a result of the combined activities of the human body, especially the brain, some people are having a hard time letting go of ancient contraptions.

The human brain as i said is very complex and it capabilities are extraordinary, it is common knowledge that we use less than 10% of our brain capacity and the person that can use up to 10% would turn out a genius.

The human brain has been said to remember every experience it has since birth, but that capacity has to be suppressed to enable the person function normally. This remembering capacity can be let loose in a state of hypnosis.

here is an interesting story on the subject - http://www.newsweek.com/id/136334

Deep Sight:
Now this has always intrigued me: when people say – it’s all about the brain.

I ask you: What is the Brain’s motivation in doing these things? Is the Brain a self-satisfying entity that for its own idiosyncrasies creates these mind states?

To put the question in simpler terms – do those neurons in your brain have a motivation for doing what they do? Because you are making it appear as though true life is all about the neurons and that what we enjoy in the world: love, wealth, pleasure, passion – are only side-effects or residue of the activity of such neurons. You are making the Neurons the only things that have purpose, whereas we, complete beings that we are, are purposeless, and rely on the whims of our neurons, obeying the commands of such neurons in whatever state.

This would mean that we are slaves, and have no will or consciousness, but are mere puppets being controlled by our masters – the neurons. The neurons are now the super race – they control us in absoluteness, and we are irrelevant.

In short, you have made the brain a being all by itself. The rest of you exists only to satisfy that little clump of matter.

Now this to me is just like the statement of that great carpenter: “Is man made for the Sabbath, or the Sabbath made for man?”

Is the brain made for man, or man made for the Brain?

You make it appear as though man is made for the brain.

I would have thought that the brain is a TOOL via which man apprehends the world.

Can the spiritual not also be said to be part of the unknown?

I cannot say it is only about the brain, the spinal cord plays it own part in our consciousness also. But seriously, the brain is part of us, just a your stomach is part of us. The brain is the most complex object (known yet) in the universe. And the brain is not only unique to humans, all animals higher than arthropods has a sort of brain. We can study the evolution of the brain and study how successive complexity leads to a more complex animal and thus a more complex state of mind. The human brain has been so completely mapped that the various states responsible for various state of mind can be manipulated. The brain is very susceptible to chemicals and states of mind can be altered by the use of alcohol. Enzymes and hormones also affects are neurons and hereby our state of mind, Estrogen injected into a person male or female would elicit famine state of mind and features, heroine injected into the blood also alters the state of mind. Fear, love and other emotions produces hormones that alters our state of mind. Even entering into a trance is known to produce certain chemicals in the brain that alters the state of mind.

In a way we can say we are slaves to our brains, but the connections of the neurons must be connected in a certain way to determine your state of mind. Once these connections are complete it is near impossible to reconnect, that is why a child dies with the accent he acquires before the age of 10, the connections had been complete. Also that is why someone that have strong religious indoctrination from a very young age would find it difficult to think otherwise without some damage to his state of mind.

I hope i am making some sense.

My respected friend Deep Sight,

i know that the atheist state of mind remains a mystery to you and you have opened numerous threads trying to decipher the mind of the atheist. Please permit me to use the Christian cliche; "you can only experience the joy of atheism if you are in it"

Some of the joys include;

The removal of guilt from from your heart and mind, by this i mean the imposition of guilt by other religions on your being even if you have done nothing wrong can be sometimes disorienting. When you throw away that pre-programmed guilt, you feel at peace.

The joy of taking responsibility for our individual actions and decisions. You are more careful with your decisions because you have no body to put blames on - devils or gods, so you take responsibility for your actions - good or bad.

The joy of appreciating the short life we have on this planet and so living it as best as we can, we do not hope of a promise of a better or worse life than this.

The joy of appreciating the universe and everything that is within, the joys of not placing our individual self above other persons or races, or even animals and plants, and seeing ourselves as part of a whole.

The joy of not having any fear of Gods, Devils, mammy water, demons, babalawos, etc ( i still fear snakes though).

There are many others, but these are a few.

now to your main question;

No the atheist mind does not allow for the spiritual but it allows for the unknown. because the spiritual defies definition. Were know of matter and are aware of energies ( some known, some unknown), but the spiritual as currently defined makes no sense.

I know that the possible number of connections by the billions of neurons in a human brain runs into billions of trillions and each compete connection represent one state of mind. This means that the possible state of mind of an average human is infinite and during our lifetimes and we are only able to experience a few of these states. So i am sure some people are able to experience a state of mind that i have never or will never experience. Maybe that is what you call spiritual. But i believe every possible human experience emanates from the brain.

kola oloye:
Point of correction: God never died.
How would I make you understand that Jesus is the son of God.
[size=15pt]John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son,,,,[/size]

Jesus laid down his live so that we can inherit the kingdom (heaven). Pls wake up.

Two questions;

1. If Jesus is not God himself or a part of the three in one God, how is he a son, different from any other creations (male). Can there be a daughter of God because i had come come across such term, and in what context can someone be a daughter of God.

2. What happens if the proposition of inheriting heaven is not inviting enough, meaning you are not interested. Will Jesus's death be meaningless to the person?. Because millions of people are not interested in going to Jesus's heaven, some are interested in going to Mohamed's heaven, some are not interested in going to any heaven at all and some want to come back as another person or animal

modupe01:
Like I said earlier, that the battle is not of the YEC vs. old earth proponents it it between the authority of God's word and fallible man's philosophy. You take man's philosophy as your authority and I take God's infallible Word as my authority. We have the same evidence but we interprete them differently based on our presuppositions.

I do not like going into religious arguments, based solely on faith, but the age of the earth has nothing to do with philosophy, it is pure science. All disciplines of science from Biology, paleontology and geology, to astronomy, physics and chemistry. All scientific disciplines are in agreement that the earth is a few billion years. So if your philosophy based on your theology suggest the earth is a few thousand years, then that is your own faith.

Please show me a scientific evidence from any of the sciences that can be interpreted to mean the earth is a few thousand years old. I can give over a dozen examples showing the age of the earth to be a few billion.

modupe01:
Have you heard about the physical evidence that dinosaur bones are not millions of years old? Scientists from the University of Montana found T. rex bones that were not totally fossilised. Sections of the bones were like fresh bone and contained what seems to be blood cells and haemoglobin. If these bones really were 65 million years old, then the blood cells and haemoglobin would have totally disintegrated. Also, there should not be "fresh" bones if they were really millions of years old. This says so much for your assumptuous dating methods that you use in determining the age of the earth.

That is a very incredible claim, but as someone who is scientifically minded, i am ready to investigate the above claims.Please kindly give me a link to where i can find information on this T. Rex. I await your response with great anticipation.

modupe01:
If you want to know what real science is then watch the videos posted below that gives scientific evidence that determines the age of the earth and not your methods based on assumptions.

That is a laugh, so what is real science. I have watched some of the videos and they are filled with twisted truths and half lies. They said a fish was found in a rock dating back to the Cambrian times when if you pick any book on Evolution you will see that fishes evolved in the Cambrian period. Then they make so many wrong assertions that i got pissed off. They can only convince the scientifically illiterate mind.


I went back to check the site about the blood cells and haemoglobin of T. Rex that you claim was found. And guess what there was nothing in the site to suggest your conclusions. This is the site again
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/01-ask.html

First the person that discovered[b] what seemslike nucleated red cells [/b] did not reach the conclusion that the dinosaurs she discovered was a few thousand years old

Here is what she said when asked if the T. rex may have nucleated red cells.

Well, there are small, red structures within the vessels that look like nucleated red cells. So on the surface, this is a case of "if it looks like a duck…." But after 70 million years, just because something looks familiar doesn't mean that that is what it is. The fossil record can mimic many things, so without doing the chemistry to show that there are similarities to blood cells at the molecular level, I do not make any claims that they are cells.

So i do not know how you reached the conclusion that the dinosaur in question is in agreement with biblical times.

The site did not say that DNA had been extracted from the tissue if indeed it is a tissue, so i implore you to read the site again before jumping into unfounded conclusions.

modupe01,

Modupe i do not understand how can argue about something you do not have a clue about. If you say you believe in the young earth theory and others such ridiculous stories so a world wide global flood based only on your faith, i would understand. But when you tend to argue about scientific arguments you do not have a clue about, it gets annoying.

You said "The age of the earth, as determined by sinful man's fallible methods is based on unproven assumptions" Do you know what you are yaking about?. To you know the different methods and evidences that scientist used to determine the approximate age of the earth? Please let me know the ones you are aware of that you term fallible methods based on assumptions, then tell me how old exactly the world is and the methods you employed that is infallible and based on proven assumption?

Like i advised Mr Olaadegun, Stay of Science and concentrate on what you believe instead of spewing scientific nonsense about.

ElRazur:
What are you talking about. I think you will find that you are moving away from the issue at hand. Yes, he is accountable as a leader, however , let the truth be told! His medical history and what not is a private matter. Seriously how hard is it to understand that?

Look dude, you posted a thread to do nothing but mock him. Then when I pointed out that he owns no one any obligation to disclose his medical history or illness [if any], you then turn around and rant about irrelevant matter.

The fact of the matter is this, he may be any of those things you have mentioned, it still do not mean his Medical history should be in the public domain and the unhealthy obsession shown by the nigeria media and people who jump on this train wagon sucks.

Where is this connection you talked about? I suppose it is only in your eyes and those who share such views of prying into private matters?


Again all you've mentioned is not a justification to make his private life - healthwise - public. It also not a justification to mock him. Only a men of small mind mocks and rejoice in this kind of situation.

The irony of all of these is that you will die too. . . . Perhaps horribly? Remember that before you mock people in the president's situation.

I am amazed at somebody with your level of exposure would be talking like this in 2009. Maybe you forgot Yaradua was elected (in other words hired), to lead us and run our country with our collective resources, and you say that his health is a personal problem that should not concern us?

I wonder if you can hire a man to help you run a company, maybe a bank you invested 25 billion Naira in, and the man spends two weeks out of every other months in a hospital, with bills and other expenditure being borne by your company, not to talk of salaries and other benefits. The man refuse to disclose what is wrong and refuses to resign because his health problems are personal. So you would be happy with such a CEO?

The day Yaradua leaves the presidency, his health matters would not concern anybody outside his immediate friends and family.

Nigerians are not praying for Yara dua to die, we only want him to take time off to take care of his complicated health issues. It is not necessary for him to die for Nigeria

C_Ronaldo:
Let me start by saying that all Glory belongs to our Lord Jesus Christ. It will be spiritual stupidity/ignorance to give glory to any man, pastor, evangelist,bishop,emam or whoever. The major impact that these Apostles of Faith make in the life of the people all over the world is through their teachings. For example, I learnt from Bishop David Oyedepo in 1997 how you can leave a holy life through hardworking. Talking about testimonies, I share this testimonies with all humility and with reference the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the doer of great things. All glory be unto our Lord Jesus Christ who is the very source of my life, the reason for my living and the very secret of my success.  I was just an average student before I came in contact with the TEACHINGS of these Apostles of Faith and through their teachings, specifically one tape from Bishop David Oyedepo titled "I MUST WORK"  my academic destiny was turned around through the divine inspiration. I then graduated with First Class and as the overall best student in one of the topmost Federal University in Nigeria.  Following that I was awarded a very competitive scholarship for my MSc in UK when the university had already informed me that I was not successful, I switched on to the wonders on Praise as thought by Bishop Oyedepo and I miracoulosly received the award letter after the heavens had reversed the decision in my favour. When they were constructing Cannan Land, I worked there as Labourer carrying cement to earn some money in 1997 but today,still in my early 30, I have used my money to buy 3 cars with the 4th on the way (2 SUVs). I have visited 5 different continents in the last 3 years including US. Once again all glory be unto our Lord Jesus Christ for he is the doer while I'm just fortunate to be a receiver. People, I must tell you, when I was in secondary school, I never had ambition of even going into University but today, the story has changed. I contacted the truth in the word of God and the truth set me free and it will work for anybody for our God is not a respecter of person. What I have shared with you is just a fraction, I can write a book out the lord'd doing in my life.

I know you will still critize my testimonies despite the fact that you requested for it but our God is a faithful God. You may say people that don't go to church achieved similar feet but again maybe they are just brilliant but in my own case I was just an average village boy!  As many as believe in these testiminies, I advice you to key into the word, seek for the truth and God that did my own will surely do you own. As many as don't believe, may God continue to help you. It is only a fool that doubt proof. Take your destiny in your own hand! May the lord help and prosper you in all your ways. (AMEN) He is a Faithful God!

My quarrel with this new age Christianity is that it is always about me, myself and I. I am blessed and successful because i have a first class,  God has blessed me  because I have 10 cars, a helicopter and a house on Madison square while others around me live in poverty as they are less blessed. All these because i give and give more to God, or is it man of God. You will also here i am blessed because in a plane crashed i was the only survivor because i am blessed while the others are are less blessed, because i gave more tithes and offering. I just do not get it.

I do not think there had been any religion in the history of the world that has been as self centered and selfish as pentecostal Christianity.

Me, i suspect foul play on the part of the regional manager;

1. Why did he allow the money to accumulate to $96,000 before remembering there is EFCC, when the law states that you must report transactions over $10,000 to both the EFCC and CBN

2. How was it that a black Nigerian (dudu) entered the bank with a name "Jerry Finger" enter a bank to collect money without raising any suspicion in the first place. I am aware that loads of "Sean Mc Carthys" collect dollars from the same bank every day. The names that go to collect money from our banks is similar to names on Inec's voters register.

3. Was this particular case different from others, whereby mysterious transactions takes place in our bank every?. I know for sure that all banks including that particular region, are active collaborators in Yahoo Yahoo money transactions, or even money laundering by the politicians. So why this sudden bout of conscience?

I think there must have been a break down of negotiation to warrant the whistle blowing, because such transaction cannot take place without the active collaboration of the bank.

That is right. Society is very dynamic, so religion and even civil laws must keep up with the society. One of the reason i believe Nigeria is not making progress is that our laws are archaic, we are still operating with a lot of Laws and structures left over by the British 50 yrs ago.

I remember a particular case, when i was living in Ijesha. It happened in my wife's church to one of the sisters. The sister in question got married to someone that the pastor proposed, as the Man went to the pastor to help convince the lady to marry him, according to the usual excuse of " God showed me in a dream".  So an elaborate wedding took place after a short courtship (no sex of course). Then came the wedding night and the man was unable to perform his manly duties as Mr long was long dead. The lady in question cried and complained to my wife. Well we have since left the area and i do not know how they resolved their problem.

So how does the church help such a couple? If the Lady asked for a divorce would you blame her as she was not aware of the situation before she got married?

The problem I find with religion especially Christianity is it slippery nature. Someone asked a Question whether there is a ground for divorce, and mavenbox answered that divorce is a sin but then went to give an exception on the grounds of infidelity. So in effect, according to Christianity divorce is allowed on the grounds of infidelity.

What i find about Christianity stand on divorce is its failure in adopting to our present situation. If you were talking about two thousand years ago where marriages were often a family affair between two closely related families, we can understand the disapproval of divorces, but nowadays when you meet a girl at work or on holiday and you can get married even before your parents gets to meet your spouse, you will find that most often than not, grievous mistakes are made in choosing spouses and you cannot wish away divorces, even among Pastors and Bishops. I know of a particular situation where a man married a drug addict and during the short courtship, that fact was hidden from the guy. Now a few months after the marriage, the guy realized he had made a mistake and has to deal with the fact that his wife was a drug addict. He later filed for divorce a year later order to regain his sanity. Are you saying he should suffer for the rest of his life because he made a mistake, because he does not want to sin?.

there is a friend that also told me his uncle married a lady who had Multiple Personality Disorder and he was unaware of it in over one year of courtship, their divorce case is still in court but he hardly sleeps at home anymore.

So the problems of divorce is a very complex problem due to our present complex society in which we live.

naijaking1 and all Cecelia's praise singers; Sanusi is[b] foreseen [/b]guilty until proven innocent.

@ Poster,

I am trying to understand your thread. I know the thread specifically refers to Bawomolo & Manmustwac whom are the atheist that catch your attention , but you made a sort of reference to all atheists.

You said "I have heard from many of the Atheists on this forum (though not in decisive or concrete terms)." You did not elaborate what the subject matter was, what was it you have heard from atheists that was indecisive and inconclusive according to you - Atheism or Theism?

Then you went further to state that "The best postulations I have received have come from persons who are not atheists". Still i am still at loss as to what these postulations are. Is it postulation about religion, philosophy or theology?

Some of the others have made some attempts: never exhaustive, but at least setting forth some reasons why they find the whole idea of Deities and the Supernatural. . . . well, laughable or at most, unnecessary. These are Mazaje, Chrisbenegor and a few others.

Some attempts have been based only on snipy extracts against the more ludicrous aspects of the religious nature of man: Think Huxley.

At least here we see you are talking about the belief in deities and the supernatural. I think the Atheist stand is the most simplistic of all world views, it does not need exhaustive and esoteric explanations. It simply state that the universe as we perceive and experience it, nothing more nothing less. We rely on our own experiences, perceptions and knowledge to interpret the universe, not some ancient revelation to an ancient people, and definitely not on revelation received by any other guru, pastor, reverend, imam, etc. We are open to receive information and knowledge from what ever source we can find, but we are not bound by any such knowledge if it is incompatible with our present understanding of the universe.

My favourite quote which encompasses the beliefs of the atheist was one quoted by Siddhārtha Gautama more than 500years before Christ, and it goes;

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

These words are timeless and is relevant then during the time of the Buddha as it is today.

I am just explaining to you the mindset of the average atheist, since you do not understand why atheists reject the idea of Gods, Demons, Ghosts, Angels, etc.

Naijaking1, you really have an axe to grind with Sanusi. I do not understand how you relate the sponsoring of an event that had been going on for years with the removal, arrest and prosecution of certain MDs for corruption and unethical banking practices. I need someone to help me understand the link between the two.

huxley:
Absolutely NEVER EVER NEVER reverting to any form of superstitions. I have been away from NL for many reasons. Suffice to say, I have been thinking about new perspectives of dealing with superstitions, religions, irrationalisms. I have been doing plenty of research in a bid to find a new "voice" or new way of addressing the issues that could be more relevant to modern religionists and people interested in investigating myths/religions/superstitions. Further, I have been thinking about ways of making scientific rationalism and philosophy more accessible or amenible only Africans. To this end, I have been spending plenty of my spare time researching areas such as:

The metaphysics of Culture
Spread of Religion as a meme
Neuroscience - how the brain is materially affected by cultural behaviours such as learning, deprivation, ascetism, etc, etc
Moral philosophy
African religions

Over the last few months, I have been accummulating a respectable bibliography of books and materials on these subjects. SO most of my spare time has been taken invested in trying to give this research some shape and structure. So I shall be dipping in and out of NL and time permits.


One interesting observation - When the atheists are not on NL, the religious mice come out to play, with their hands on each others throads. Not only are there these inter-theistic fights, the overall standard of discussion takes a nose-dive. Looks like this speaks well of the demeanour of the atheists.

I share the same vision as you, I had research also along those lines, except The metaphysics of Culture, and i honestly feel the greatest problems confronting Africans especially Nigerians is a proliferation of Religion. We seem to be a dumping ground for all manner of religions especially all variations of Christianity and Islam.

I feel that until we throw away or at least reduce the influence of those two religions on our national life, we will forever remain backwards. We waste way to much time in Prayer in churches and mosques and less time on productivity, to actually develop. If not for oil, we would be worse of than neighbouring countries.

SapeleGuy:
Tippy top - God bless you.

Just because it was done before doesn't make it right or mean we must continue with 'rascality and recklessness'.
CBN has a monopoly in their sector, they do not need to be sponsoring a golf tournament?
How do CBN or Nigeria gain from such an enterprise?

There are clearly several more deserving causes across the country that CBN could channel this money, water projects and desert reclamation projects spring to mind.

So you expect Sanusi who had been there for just less than 5 months to cancel all past obligations of the central bank because you hate certain names. Why are you not using the same venom on Fashola for not renaming Third Mainland  Bridge, or the Governor of Kano for not renaming Sani Abacha stadium.

xtristo:
@WIRINET


I AM SO HAPPY U VE STARTED GETTING IN TOUCH WITH ONE ANOTHER.GOOD!ALSO TRY AND GET IN TOUCH WITH

TUDOR AND OGAGA4LUV.ONCE U HAVE AGREED,LET ME KNOW,OK.

THANKS!

See newborn telling his seniors how their house was built. When you join nairaland to tell us how we started getting in touch with each other?

Yes i am a proud Atheist, been for about 25years and had no problems whatsoever (outside the usual problems of struggling to survive).

Atheists embrace the path of peace? which path is that, had any religion ever brought peace to the world? more people had been killed in the name of God that any other course in human history. Beside i had never known any conflict fought in the name of Atheism.

My brother Huxley,long time no see. How is London? How is your course on cosmology? I was reading a book on Allan Sandage, and he was trying to determine the fate of the universe. What do you think is the fate of the universe? The big crunch or everlasting expansion?

What kind of contest are you proposing? A spiritual one or a physical one. Also is the venue a real venue or cyberspace?

When you say "u shall not leave the place alive", are you threatening to kill all the atheist that come if they do not respond to your hand in fellowship?

Please clarify further.

Ibime:
Isnt it ironic that the CBN Governors Cup (not IBB cup, but hosted at IBB Golf course) has been running since Soludo's tenure, but now it suddenly seems right to stick it on Sanusi.

These journalists are really scraping the bottom of the barrell.

For all sports sponsored by the CBN, including the CBN Governor's cup, click here:

http://www.cenbank.org/CBNcommunity/Sports.asp

Na wa o!!

I remembered that the CBN had been sponsoring the Governors Golf Tournament for many years now, so i was as surprised as you when the tournament was branded with Sanusi, and even more surprised at the twists and spins to it.

Nigerian Press (newspapers) are really hitting below the belt in their war with Sanusi.

Naijaking1, you are taking this Ibru thing to personal and hereby descending to ridiculous arguments to vent your anger.

Now who had been condemned without trial? from available information, Cecilia Ibru was given conditions for bail by the court and i think she had been able to meet the bail conditions. So who had infringed on her rights? Sanusu removed her from the bank according to relevant laws, and that is where his powers stop. It is other government agencies(EFCC) that is prosecuting her. if she feels her removal was illegal, she  has the rights to seek redress at the courts as is being done by Akingbola (although in absentia).

naijaking1:
The principle of equity and fair play dictates that all the above write-up are simply rumors until proven by the court. So, you can continue your rumor mongering with Sanusi, it should have no influence on the outcome of justice.

So what will you call your own accusations? prediction? The allegations against Ibru is in court and you feel that violate the principle of equity and fair play? But you feel your prediction of who sanusi will sell Ibru's bank to should be the most important factor in the case, and that is your idea of equity and fair play? amazing.

I do not know why we only accept what foreigners brand us. If foreigner brand us as monkeys, we accept and also brand ourselves monkeys and ask how to change our face from looking like monkeys. If CNN brands us fools, we accept it without complains. They branded us all drug peddlers and we gleefully accepted, even though not a puppy of cocaine is grown in Nigeria and we have other countries like Columbia and eastern Europe where drug peddling is a way of life there. Most Nigerians including me had never seen cocaine before.

Now we have been branded fraudster, when the most serious fraud in terms of sophistication and real quantum in monetary terms is committed by western hackers from Europe, America and the far east. Meanwhile nobody brands them a nation of fraudsters. Our yahoo yahoo boys, majority of whom collect a few thousand dollars as advanced fee for some bogus illegal business, or posing as a lover to an emotionally unstable westerner, are small fry in the international fraud business.

I agree with airzzee 100% on how to curb internet fraud.

The Sly:
You dont need to write episple.
Deep down inside you, You know public school sucks.

If public schools suck so much, how come most of our leaders, both past and present were products of public schools, how d you also explain the fact that most of our intellectuals, scientists, artists etc, went to public schools. How many of our profs or captains of industries went to any high brow primary or secondary schools?

Do not mind those shouting "public school", the standard of Education is retrogressing genarally- both private and public schools. I have seen many students failing WAEC, NECO and JAMB, from those high brow schools located in the Lekki axis where you pay school fees in millions of naira. Meanwhile year in year out, the overall best students for these exams almost always comes from public schools.

To me the best schools are the first generation of Public schools, like kings college, Queens college and federal government colleges. Command Secondary Schools are also not bad ( you have to know someone in the military though). Model colleges are just there.

I feel Private schools give a better all round education, that those elite schools where your child will only be exposed to a narrow range of people ( People within the narrow range of class the school provides for). Mind you, it would be unthinkable to send your child to most of the state schools unless you are preparing your child for a career as an "Agbero".

Having said these, the most important aspect of child education is parental education. With a good parental guidance, a child in a moderately good school (private or public) will excel, while a child in British - American College but with no parental guidance will likely  perform poorly.

Make una no worry, we go win under 17 world cup as a consolation, after all we are the best in the world (under 17 level). I am sure we go vex thrash the Swiss 3 - 0