Jarus

You should be hiding the posts from non-participants.

Only the discussants, judges, moderator and coordinators are allowed to post pls.

When it's question time, viewers can post their questions to the debators. For now any other person that posts risks 2 hours ban.

Tank you

Never mind! I get it now

Carry on!

It is important to highlight the fact that introduction of state police does not amount to an abrogation of the federal police: What we are highlighting here is the need for the shrinking of the federal police to limit it to functions bordering on human rights and inter-state crime, while leaving local policing to individuals who are indigenous to the states and understand the terrain better. This will aid specialization with regard to policing functions, and can also be used to entrench a system of checks and balances where the federal police's mandate will include prosecution of cases involving human rights abuses (This can help put a check on governors who may be wont to abuse the policemen under their control).

Sisi_Kill: When do we get to ask our questions?

In approximately 8 minutes.

Judges,

Please get ready to post your questions in approximately 6 minutes.

[b]Like everything in life there are Pros and Cons to “STATE-POLICING”, fortunately for us as a Nation, we have witnessed the practice of regional policing and now the National Police structure, with a command structure that is only answerable to the Inspector General of Police, whom is only answerable the President of this Nation
As highlighted by “Deep Sight” and quoted: “ …that I am forced to wonder exactly how Nigeria has somehow managed to remain in existence for the period of time that it has. I say this because, all that leads to war is injustice; all that leads to disintegration is imbalance: and all that leads to decay is inertia. My friends, injustice, imbalance and inertia are all very present and alive in Nigeria today.”
Perhaps, one of the reasons this country has remained in one piece is because the armed police has been directly controlled by the man at the centre and that there exists no other legally armed authority controlled by any state or region. What would have been the fate of this nation, if the Igbo man had his own police force loyal to the Ndigbo, the Kogi man also had her own police force loyal to the Igala/ Igbira, how would territorial disputes have been resolved Nigeria is a unique country, where very citizens first recognises his or her tribe before He sees his or her Nation. The fact that state police works in other climes does not imply it will work here. Proponents of state police should realise that the failure of the current police force is as a result of institutional failure which is a characteristics of every institution in Nigeria, whether at state level or National level and not peculiar the Police force alone.
In fact one of the strongest institutions in this country remains the Nigerian Military Force, which is by all means a National body
[/b]

Judges please put your questions to the participants.

Mr Deep Sight, this question is for you: you mentioned in your presentation of the activity of what you branded ‘virtual State Police’ in the form of the Hisbah as well as the OPC vigilante groups which are well known in the West. Don’t you think that the creation of state police will further legalise and constitutionalise the possibly brutalities that could be carried out by these bodies?

JaaizTech: My Name is Folarin, a Yoruba man from Ogun State, I live in Kaduna state in the Northern part of Nigeria, I neither speak Hausa nor Fulfude. What do you think will be my fate if I enter a dispute with a Hausa man, with the Hausa police force to be the judge Or you are an Adamu who is living in Anambra state and you enter a land dispute with a Chukwuma, and the case arrives at “Ndigbo Police Force”. What will be the fate of Adamu, whom cannot speak Igbo. Will He get a fair hearing.[/b]

1. Are you of the opinion that the current structure will ensure "fairness" for Folarin or Adamu?

2. The structure I propose will retain federal police bureau offices in every state of the federation and retain control over issues relating to human rights abuses. Therefore should the situation you envisage ever occur, Folarin and Adamu will have a legal recourse.

Mr HNosegbe, I’ll like to refer you to your post below:

HNosegbe: The current police structure has given rise to inefficiency, corruption and a general disconnect from the average Nigerian for the very reason that in every given community, in every state, policing is being handled by people who have absolutely no knowledge of the environment, cannot speak the language, cannot relate to the people resident in those areas and are so disconnected from them that the popular inscription in a regular police station

Some people would opine that a non-native police officer can also learn the ethos, norms and values and adapt to his posting environment. The same school of thought is also of the opinion that a native police officer will be biased in matters concerning his state if posted there especially if one party is a close relative. What is your say on that?

I will now proceed to deal with what I consider (as laid out in my previous posts) could form the only reasonable and logical objections to regional policing in Nigeria today - - - >

1. Abuse of Power – namely that the State Chief Executives may abuse their authority with respect to the command of the Police Institutions.

With respect to this issue, I must ask the question: where is there greater likelihood of abuse – in a situation whereby one person – i.e: the president – subsumes all policing powers – or a situation such as that which is herewith recommended: namely that policing powers are devolved amongst constituent units?

Which scenario provides for checks and balances?

I don’t think I need to answer that question: the answer is self evident!

In any scenario in which we may raise the question of abuse of powers: that danger is only amplified where the policing powers of the Federation are subsumed in one human being only: as obtains currently: the President.

From a dialectic point of view thus; this could not possibly form an argument against regional policing because it rather points in favor of regional policing to the extent that it reduces the extent and possibility of the abuse of power by devolving the policing powers of the Federation amongst constituent units.

As things are: the President may singularly, and according to his whims and caprices inflict grave damage on any Government within the Federation in the exercise of this power alone. We may recall in this regard the following incidents which occurred during the Obasanjo Presidency –

- The abduction of a sitting Governor of a State (Chris Ngige) in the presence of Federal Police – which was clearly conducted by Politicians affiliated with the Presidency

- The removal of Governors of States under Declarations of State of Emergency – even where the Constitution does not provide that the declaration of a State of Emergency should lead to the removal, even if temporary, of a Governor

- The unilateral appointment of Administrators of such states by the President – under a Federal Democracy!

These are only a few incidents which make it manifest that the concentration of Policing powers of the Federation in one man alone, presents a far greater risk of abuse of power than the scenario of Regional Policing.

2. Conflict of Power – namely that there could be potential competition and conflict in exercise of powers in political circles via the agency of Police Institutions.

Now with respect to this issue, I will have to say that the only problem I see is that of a complete lack of exposure and imagination on the part of the Nigerian establishment: or else’ a deliberate dishonesty of purpose with a view to consistently centralizing power.

I say this because regional/ state policing is not a new animal or a strange concept in Federal Democracies across the world and there are well established protocols to be borrowed from if necessary (just as we borrowed our entire presidential system from the United States) in terms of setting clear distinctions of the jurisdictional competence of respective law enforcement agencies. Now this is with respective to legal issues alone: and I say straight away that this is a matter which can be very easily set forth in terms of the enabling laws for regional policing in the first place.

In the United States, although every state has its own Police force, there remains the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and there are clear protocols and regulations governing the jurisdictional competence of the Federal Law Enforcement as well as those of the regions.

Nevertheless, I must point out that the core of this particular objection is not legal; it is rather political: namely the fear the rival politicians may utilize their police forces as instruments of intimidation and coercion against political enemies.

In response to this, I say that a proper legal framework is sufficient to deal with this. All that is required is that the respective regional police forces are sufficiently insulated from individual political control through the establishment of a process for Police appointments and Disengagements through the Police Service Commission, which may be appointed, say, by the House of Assembly of State and the Judicial Service Commission.

This, I must point out, is critical, regardless of whether State Police is implemented or not: there remains a necessity to insulate the Police from Individual Political control in the same way as the INEC, the EFCC, and the CBN should be isolated from individual political control to prevent abuse of power.

As such, in re-evolving regional policing in Nigeria, only a little thinking is required to deal with the possibility of conflict and abuse of powers.

Constitutional Issues

All of the foregoing suggestions need not detract from the supervisory powers of the Governor. These provisions will only serve to ensure that the Governor does not have an over-arching power over the Police Force such that he is able to abuse the institution.

For what reason are Governor’s constitutionally recognized as the Chief Security officers of their states, if they can have no supervision over the Police? They should. And I should mention that in this regard, a Federal High Court has already ruled that the Commissioner of Police of a State should take directives from a State Governor.

This judgment only shows the lacuna in the policing structure set forth in the Nigerian Constitution of 1999.

As I have said, setting in place a process for appointment and removal of Police Officers which is independent of the individual political control of the governor, is hardly rocket science.

3. Fragility and possible Federal Disintegration – namely that the existence of regional Police Forces could form a platform for the evolution of state/ regional armies which may eventually crystallize civil-war or dissolution of the Federal Republic.

I will make only two quick comments on this.

First, if the suggestions made above are adopted, then the possibility of this scenario is mitigated.

Secondly, there are myriad possibilities for dealing with this. Such as a limitation on armaments for State/ Regional Police Institutions. Light armaments could be prescribed, and it is even conceivable to limit such forces to the use of no fire arms – namely the use of objects such as tazers, batons, etc, and perhaps only very light firearms for incidents of armed crime. This could reduce police brutality.

Overall, I need to emphasize that thinking is required; and in so thinking, we can see that there core objections against regional policing and easily be dealt with once we are legally imaginative enough.

In my next post, I shall deal with Judicial Issues.

Question for HNosegbe

Given the widely accepted view that Nigerian office holders abuse their positions for various reasons and in many ways, how will non-state citizens lives and properties be secured, when states in which they reside in or visit, maintain their own forces?

@Deepsight,
The central plank of your argument for the introduction of police forces at state level is predicated on "our cultural and linguistic differences".
Why do you think the outcomes derived from the Nigerian experiment are so different from Tanzania's?

Tanzania
Over 120 ethnic groups
45% of the Tanzanian population are Christians, with Muslims making up approximately 38-40%. The remainder of the population are Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and atheists. Most Christians are Roman Catholic, Lutheran or Seventh-Day Adventist, though a number of other Pentecostal churches, Anglicans, and Eastern Orthodox Christians are also represented in the country. Most Tanzanian Muslims are Sunni, though there are also populations of Ibadi, Shia, Ahamadiya, Bohora, and Sufi. Muslims are concentrated in coastal areas and in mainland areas along former slave routes.

The Commissioners of Police Zanzibar and Dar es Salaam Special Zone are responsible for management and administration of the force in Zanzibar and Dar es Salaam Special Zone, respectively.
For the purpose of administration and command of the Force, the country is divided into 28 regions, 23 of which are on the mainland and five in Zanzibar. There are also 119 Police administrative districts on the mainland and 10 in the isles. The Force has also established 13 operational / specialised units which carry out special duties depending on the purpose of their establishment.

DeepSight
Given that the central plank of your argument rests on the inappropriateness of the political structure in Nigeria (Centralist Vs. True federalism), how do you hope to implement State Police within the current structure without introducing significant additional problems?

@JaaizTech,

Would your fears be assuaged by a state police force which is representative of a state's ethnic makeup?

@Deepsight
You seem to be asserting that since Nigeria is one of the most diverse regions in the world, that every part should have their own police with a great deal of local content. What is your own definition of local content considering the fact that a lot of Chukwumas are resident in Ibadan,a lot of Adamus are resident in Owerri and a lot of Abimbola's are resident in kano. What will be the fate of these people.

Question for HNosegbe

In continuation of my previous question to Deepsight, given the agitation for regionalism/secession in some regions, how do you prevent the State police forces in the same region from being used as a standing army? Either to check a sitting or president or to secede?

HNosegbe: It is important to highlight the fact that introduction of state police does not amount to an abrogation of the federal police: What we are highlighting here is the need for the shrinking of the federal police to limit it to functions bordering on human rights and inter-state crime, while leaving local policing to individuals who are indigenous to the states and understand the terrain better. This will aid specialization with regard to policing functions, and can also be used to entrench a system of checks and balances where the federal police's mandate will include prosecution of cases involving human rights abuses (This can help put a check on governors who may be wont to abuse the policemen under their control).

Mr HNosegbe, If I got you right, you are advocating for both state police and a federal police structure with each having their roles well defined. Please if I may ask whoose responsibility will it be to fund the state police? Is it the FG via the monthly allocations or the state govt via their internally generated revenue?

TO ALL
Can you please define clearly your understanding of STATE POLICE? Do you define it by GEOGRAPHY or ETHNICITY?

To Deep Sight, you wrote - that are properly empowered to pursue an internal security policy unique and suitable to their culture, linguistics and ethnic as well as social identity.

Are you of the opinion that crime and punishment differ ethnically and culturally? That A Hausa man theft of goats is different from a Yoruba man's theft of the same thing? That how one person is punished should be different from another because of his tribe? And Security - How can that be made to order? I guess your use of the word UNIQUE and SUITABLE is throwing me off a little.

@Cheddarking
Are you implying that there hasn't been any case of federal police brutality in Nigeria? You seem to be of the view that abuse of police can only happen under a state police.

Lets give the participants time to respond to the questions that have been asked of them before we pose any more questions. Thanks

Jarus,

Please hide any questions after this post for now. Thanks

afam4eva: @Cheddarking
Are you implying that there hasn't been any case of federal police brutality in Nigeria? You seem to be of the view that abuse of police can only happen under a state police.

Cheddarking sent his submission ahead of time; he is not present.


Judges,

Please take this into consideration.

Katsumoto: Question for HNosegbe

Given the widely accepted view that Nigerian office holders abuse their positions for various reasons and in many ways, how will non-state citizens lives and properties be secured, when states in which they reside in or visit, maintain their own forces?

It is in recognition of this problem that I recommended that the federal police be maintained, albeit with a smaller size and scope, in each state of the federation and issued with jurisdiction over issues bordering on human rights. Another check is the suspension of the immunity clause over a state governor when the case involves the misuse of state police for inappropriate ends. Another avenue could even be to make state police heads directly elected by the populace and responsible to them through the state houses of assembly.

The UK has elected police commissioners and the US has elected sheriffs. Who says we can't?

Obinoscopy: Some people would opine that a non-native police officer can also learn the ethos, norms and values and adapt to his posting environment.

That may be true, but the question is: Over what period of time? I don't know about you, but I can't estimate how long it will take a Bassey Ekpeyong from Akwa Ibom state to adapt if he is posted to Hadejia in Jigawa state or Biu in Borno state. How long will it take him to understand the terrain, the culture, the way of life and the best areas and avenues to patrol in keeping the community safe and miscreants at bay? "Pretty long time" would be my best guess.

The same school of thought is also of the opinion that a native police officer will be biased in matters concerning his state if posted there especially if one party is a close relative. What is your say on that?

"Biased" in what way exactly? I don't see the policeman acting as a judge in this case: Besides policemen do not take up cases, they are ASSIGNED cases.

Obinoscopy: Mr Deep Sight, this question is for you: you mentioned in your presentation of the activity of what you branded ‘virtual State Police’ in the form of the Hisbah as well as the OPC vigilante groups which are well known in the West. Don’t you think that the creation of state police will further legalise and constitutionalise the possibly brutalities that could be carried out by these bodies?

Like legalizing prostitution or marijuana, you get to control and regiment in proper fashion, something that is currently expressing itself anyway, out of hand: as opposed to giving it free reign into anarchy.