TroGunn:

That's a question for Anony and co.

My belief is that man is a soul and as such soul dies when man dies. The bible affirms this. Thoughts, desires, feelings are obviously from the brain, not from an "undying soul" that flies away.

That's clearly a waste of time. Rather than say 'I don't know', many would give up a nut to say 'because god!'. Usually out of some fear or the other. Through history no less, and they've constantly proven wrong. We don't claim gods cause droughts these days anymore, do we?

Ah, wait, we still do in many parts of this country. In fact, I remember a case of riots ensuing because of a drought. Mallam at mosque blamed teh gheys, xtians and beer parlors. My mom had dragged me to to her hometown. There were only indian films, the champions league and some good ghey cooking in that town, so without alcohol the ordeal was a tad more unbearable. Of course, mallam got away with inciting violence with a fair amount of praise. Not that I can fully blame him when sheeple behave like sheeple

Oh, yes. Ignorance = 'god did it', sometimes even despite education (heheheheh). The ones that disgust me personally the most are the ones clearly motivated by fear. Either ways, again, a waste of time.

Mr_Anony:
Asked and answered

OK. . .

Is there a part of the brain that we can remove that will make a person lose his self awareness?

Self awareness is the exchange of information between brain functions. I don't think the brain has a single region that is devoted to self awareness, but rather, the complex phenomenon likely emerges from the distributed interactions between multiple brain regions. . . .

Please stop stating as fact something you don't know to be fact. Your argument is similar to saying that a Oliver Twist is a function of ink and paper because without ink and paper there'll be no Oliver Twist story.

So what are is responsible for thoughts if not the chemical reactions that occur in the brain?. . .Tell me pls. . .Your Oliver Twist analogy doesn't make any sense. . .If you give me the book, I will tell you that with out ink and paper the book will not exist not the story. . .Oliver twist story is not a book, its a story that exist on its own independent of a book, it can be told with words of mouth. . . so your analogy with ink and paper makes no sense. . .

You people are not tired about this soul matter ? Na wa o, me am warming up for this weekend pool party, no one should put me in a psychic mode oh.

mazaje:
Self awareness is the exchange of information between brain functions. I don't think the brain has a single region that is devoted to self awareness, but rather, the complex phenomenon likely emerges from the distributed interactions between multiple brain regions. . . .

This is a poor answer and you know it. So far you have been ranting about how removal of one part of the brain can affect memory and another can affect motor skills while yet another can affect cognitive skills e.t.c. How come there is no part of the brain you can remove to effectively turn a man into a robot? The tools for thinking will still be very much intact. You don't need to be self-aware in order to think (have a memory and make calculations) computers do it all the time without self awareness.

So what are is responsible for thoughts if not the chemical reactions that occur in the brain?. . .Tell me pls. . .Your Oliver Twist analogy doesn't make any sense. . .If you give me the book, I will tell you that with out ink and paper the book will not exist not the story. . .Oliver twist story is not a book, its a story that exist on its own independent of a book, it can be told with words of mouth. . . so your analogy with ink and paper makes no sense. . .

Actually it does because the story itself is non-physical but I have reduced it to ink and paper in the same way you are trying to reduce non-physical thoughts to physical chemical reactions.

Mr_Anony:
This is a poor answer and you know it. So far you have been ranting about how removal of one part of the brain can affect memory and another can affect motor skills while yet another can affect cognitive skills e.t.c. How come there is no part of the brain you can remove to effectively turn a man into a robot? The tools for thinking will still be very much intact. You don't need to be self-aware in order to think.

This is rather a poor reply. Self awareness is not one thing. You can be aware without memory. There are many things affecting self awareness, so to ask what part of the brain we should remove to self-awareness is a foolish trick question

Logicboy03:
This is rather a poor reply. Self awareness is not one thing. You can be aware without memory. There are many things affecting self awareness, so to ask what part of the brain we should remove to self-awareness is a foolish trick question

Would you mind telling us these things that affect self-awareness in the sense that a person will lose the ability to distinguish between himself and other objects in existence.

Mr_Anony:
Good, so your point was false. Thoughts cannot be created in the lab and robots can't think.

It's why I put the thought in quotes- robots can't think like man, but can process data and act based on it. Basically robots cannot think like man because their processors are not as complex or powerful as the human brain, and chances are that man may never be able to make something as complex as the human brain.

But to conclude that full thinking (feelings, desires, emotions, forming judgments, etc) are not brain functions but come from some "undying soul" is stretching it and not-biblical. Just because we can't explain how the brain does it doesn't mean it's not done by the brain - it's said we understand only about 10% of how the brain functions.

Mr_Anony:
This is a poor answer and you know it. So far you have been ranting about how removal of one part of the brain can affect memory and another can affect motor skills while yet another can affect cognitive skills e.t.c. How come there is no part of the brain you can remove to effectively turn a man into a robot? The tools for thinking will still be very much intact. You don't need to be self-aware in order to think (have a memory and make calculations) computers do it all the time without self awareness.

I have not been ranting I have been stating FACT, removal of some parts of the brain affects speech, thought, reasoning and motor fucntions, they are facts not rants. . .Self awareness is the exchange of information between brain functions simple. . .

Actually it does because the story itself is non-physical but I have reduced it to ink and paper in the same way you are trying to reduce non-physical thoughts to physical chemical reactions.

If you are talking about the story then you are not talking about the book. . .So your analogy remains senseless. . .The story can be shown to exist on its own and does NOT require a book for it to be told. . .The book is only paper and ink. . .

TroGunn:

It's why I put the thought in quotes- robots can't think like man, but can process data and act based on it. Basically robots cannot think like man because their processors are not as complex or powerful as the human brain, and chances are that man may never be able to make something as complex as the human brain.

I can bet you that even if you upped the processing power of a robot to infinity, it will not become conscious. It will only get faster in doing sums.

But to conclude that full thinking (feelings, desires, emotions, forming judgments, etc) are not brain functions but come from some "undying soul" is stretching it and not-biblical. Just because we can't explain how the brain does it doesn't mean it's not done by the brain - it's said we understand only about 10% of how the brain functions.

The brain is more or less like a computer processor with electricity flying through it. For you to claim that physical reactions can create a non-physical awareness is as bad as claiming that something can come out of nothing.

Mr_Anony:
I can bet you that even if you upped the processing power of a robot to infinity, it will not become conscious. It will only get faster in doing sums.


The brain is more or less like a computer processor with electricity flying through it. For you to claim that physical reactions can create a non-physical awareness is as bad as claiming that something can come out of nothing.

For you to claim to know what the brain cannot do with very limited knowledge of what is" the most complex thing in the universe" is presumpteous, and all this just to support a non-biblical crap. Clearly, without the brain, man is incapable of thoughts, feelings, desires, etc..

mazaje:

I have not been ranting I have been stating FACT, removal of some parts of the brain affects speech, thought, reasoning and motor fucntions, they are facts not rants. . .Self awareness is the exchange of information between brain functions simple. . .

Lol, so the exchange of information is now self-awareness abi? you haven't even explained how those chemical reactions happen to be non-physical information but you are already jumping to telling me that this non-physical information is actually aware of itself. Great.

If you are talking about the story then you are not talking about the book. . .So your analogy remains senseless. . .The story can be shown to exist on its own and does NOT require a book for it to be told. . .The book is only paper and ink. . .

Lol, the story can be shown to exist on its own? Where?
I put it to you that you cannot show me one example of non-physical information/knowledge that doesn't have a physical bearer but yet you are sure that the non-physical aspect is very different from it's physical carrier. It is only when it comes to the brain that you want to marry the two. Why?

Mr_Anony:
Would you mind telling us these things that affect self-awareness in the sense that a person will lose the ability to distinguish between himself and other objects in existence.

Anonyism at play. When you have lost the argument, try asking more questions to cover the facts.

Awareness needs
-reasoning
-memory
-consciousness

These three things use up a lot of different parts of the brain. I wonder how you can easily choose a part of the brain and say "this shutdowns awareness"

TroGunn:

For you to claim to know what the brain cannot do with very limited knowledge of what is" the most complex thing in the universe" is presumpteous, and all this just to support a non-biblical crap.

I didn't make the claim but your post lacks validity anyway. I'll show you how: For instance I know that the brain cannot fly, swim or jump over a pole vault. Am I therefore being presumptous? That we know little about something does not automatically mean that we know nothing about it.

Clearly, without the brain, man is incapable of thoughts, feelings, desires, etc..

No one is disputing this. What we are disputing is that the brain is what we use to do these things not the creator of these things

Logicboy03:

Anonyism at play. When you have lost the argument, try asking more questions to cover the facts.

Awareness needs
-reasoning
-memory
-consciousness

These three things use up a lot of different parts of the brain. I wonder how you can easily choose a part of the brain and say "this shutdowns awareness"

Lol, really? first of all, I'll suggest you follow the argument from the beginning. Secondly, you are putting the cart before the horse. You first need to know that you are distinct from something else before you can begin to any form of reasoning or even remember anything as a human being not the other way round.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, so the exchange of information is now self-awareness abi? you haven't even explained how those chemical reactions happen to be non-physical information but you are already jumping to telling me that this non-physical information is actually aware of itself. Great.

As logic boy has said

Awareness needs
-reasoning
-memory
-consciousness

All there are different parts of the brain that are responsible for all these, when some parts of your brain and tampered with you lose your ability to remember things, when some are tampered with you lose your ability to reason, when some are tampered with you lose your consciousness. . .The totality of it is what makes you self aware. . .Thoughts are not non physical as such cos you can not think of non physical things. . .Even numbers have symbols. when you think of numbers you think of symbols. . .

Lol, the story can be shown to exist on its own? Where?
I put it to you that you cannot show me one example of non-physical information/knowledge that doesn't have a physical bearer but yet you are sure that the non-physical aspect is very different from it's physical carrier. It is only when it comes to the brain that you want to marry the two. Why?

What exactly are you talking about?. . .Oliver Twist story can be told without the oliver twist book. . .The oliver twsit book is paper and ink and story does not depend on the book since it can be told without the book. . .Your analogy remains senseless and very poor in relation to the discussion we are having. . .

Mr_Anony:
I didn't make the claim but your post lacks validity anyway. I'll show you how: For instance I know that the brain cannot fly, swim or jump over a pole vault. Am I therefore being presumptous? That we know little about something does not automatically mean that we know nothing about it.

Crap logic. That the brain doesn't swim or pole vault doesn't mean it can't do other things. We just don't know how it does some things, and there's a good possibility we may never know. It doesn't mean the brain doesn't do those things.

No one is disputing this. What we are disputing is that the brain is what we use to do these things not the creator of these things

Clearly and the bible firms it that these non-physicals die along with the physical body. Man dies when the brain dies, so clearly the brain is at the centre of our abilities.

TroGunn:
Crap logic. That the brain doesn't swim or pole vault doesn't mean it can't do other things. We just don't know how it does some things, and there's a good possibility we may never know. It doesn't mean the brain doesn't do those things.

But then aren't you falling into your own trap because you are suggesting that the brain does what you admit you don't know?

Clearly and the bible firms it that these non-physicals die along with the physical body. Man dies when the brain dies, so clearly the brain is at the centre of our abilities.

Where in the bible does it say this? Secondly what does the bible mean when it uses the word soul?

TroGunn:
Crap logic. That the brain doesn't swim or pole vault doesn't mean it can't do other things. We just don't know how it does some things, and there's a good possibility we may never know. It doesn't mean the brain doesn't do those things.



Clearly and the bible firms it that these non-physicals die along with the physical body. Man dies when the brain dies, so clearly the brain is at the centre of our abilities.

I have to agree.

Which is why , when people have accidents, in some cases they suffer memory loss due to a part of their brain that has been damaged.

What of Amnesia caused by brain damage, were people , in increasing stages begin to forget who they are , where they are and in many cases cannot even recognize their relatives.

The argument brought on by our brothers, will be that this is only applicable to the brain, the soul is still fully conscious, in which case we have to ask them, why is the soul not capable of retentive memory in the absence of the brain ?

I have to insist, that it is only because of the 'breath of GOD' that is in MAN that makes HIM capable of functioning as a HUMAN. Without this breath , as Job , David and Solomon reiterated, MAN returns to dust.

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." - Ecclesiastes 9:10

Mr_Anony:
But then aren't you falling into your own trap because you are suggesting that the brain does what you admit you don't know?

While we may not know the processes through which the brain does it, clearly it does it. Without the brain, these non-physicals cease.

Where in the bible does it say this? Secondly what does the bible mean when it uses the word soul?

Again:
Eccl 9:5-6,10 -- "For the living know that they will die,but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun". "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom".

The bible uses the word soul to refer to a person, animal OR the life a person or animal has.
More on the other thread - https://www.nairaland.com/1147695/body-soul

mazaje:

As logic boy has said

Awareness needs
-reasoning
-memory
-consciousness

All there are different parts of the brain that are responsible for all these, when some parts of your brain and tampered with you lose your ability to remember things, when some are tampered with you lose your ability to reason, when some are tampered with you lose your consciousness. . .The totality of it is what makes you self aware. . .Thoughts are not non physical as such cos you can not think of non physical things. . .Even numbers have symbols. when you think of numbers you think of symbols. . .

Lol, you are making the same mistake logicboy made which is putting the cart before the horse. Do you need to remember your past in other to know that you are different from a chair or do you need to know you are distinct before you remember your past. You said earlier that a new born baby cannot internalize has no thoughts and memories but builds them as it grows. Does this therefore mean that a new born baby cannot distinguish between itself and the hospital equipment?

What exactly are you talking about?. . .Oliver Twist story can be told without the oliver twist book. . .The oliver twsit book is paper and ink and story does not depend on the book since it can be told without the book. . .Your analogy remains senseless and very poor in relation to the discussion we are having. . .

Once again, you miss the point. You agree that the story itself is non-physical. It may be in form of a book, a CD, spoken sounds e.t.c. but it is not the book or the CD that is Oliver twist and if they are destroyed, the story still remains. It is the story that validates the book and not the book that validates the story. You agree to this but then somehow when it comes to the brain which has the same relationship to non-physical thought and personhood you want to convince me that the chemical reactions are the person. Why the double standard?

Mr_Anony:
Lol, really? first of all, I'll suggest you follow the argument from the beginning. Secondly, you are putting the cart before the horse. You first need to know that you are distinct from something else before you can begin to any form of reasoning or even remember anything as a human being not the other way round.

Paradox- to know you are distinct is reasoning itself

Mr_Anony:
Lol, you are making the same mistake logicboy made which is putting the cart before the horse.

Mtchew.....there is no mistake.....you are only trying to look for how to save face. Your christian bros are even abandoning your ship

Mr_Anony:
Do you need to remember your past in other to know that you are different from a chair or do you need to know you are distinct before you remember your past.

You need memory. Memory and reasoning go together.

If you have no memory at all, you will keep losing your awareness if even you manage to reason it out

For you to know what a chair looks like you have to have a visual memory of a chair. The first time you see a chair, you make a visual memory of it. Memory is also instantaneous.

Mr_Anony:
You said earlier that a new born baby cannot internalize has no thoughts and memories but builds them as it grows. Does this therefore mean that a new born baby cannot distinguish between itself and the hospital equipment?

You are asking a question that is very difficult to answer if not impossible. No one remembers what he did as a newborn baby. One can both argue that a baby is self aware and not self aware.


You want to drag this discussion away from the false point you made trying to find a part of the brain that stops self awareness

Mr_Anony:
Lol, you are making the same mistake logicboy made which is putting the cart before the horse. Do you need to remember your past in other to know that you are different from a chair or do you need to know you are distinct before you remember your past. You said earlier that a new born baby cannot internalize has no thoughts and memories but builds them as it grows. Does this therefore mean that a new born baby cannot distinguish between itself and the hospital equipment?

You are just running around in circles and asking meaningless questions. . .Self awareness is a function of the brain without which you can NOT be self aware in the first place. . .A new born baby is not self aware. . .Self awareness grows over time. . . http://psychology.emory.edu/cognition/rochat/Five%20levels%20.pdf

From wikipedia it says Self-awareness is widely believed among psychologists to typically develop at about the age of one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_cognitive_development

Once again, you miss the point. You agree that the story itself is non-physical. It may be in form of a book, a CD, spoken sounds e.t.c. but it is not the book or the CD that is Oliver twist and if they are destroyed, the story still remains. It is the story that validates the book and not the book that validates the story. You agree to this but then somehow when it comes to the brain which has the same relationship to non-physical thought and personhood you want to convince me that the chemical reactions are the person. Why the double standard?

Oliver Twist is a story. . .Oliver Twist story book is ANOTHER different thing from the story. . .The story exist independent of the book so they are NOT the same. . .The story book is only paper, symbols and ink. . .I can tell you about the story of Oliver twist without reading the book if some one tells me the story. . .You can NOT not show me any thing the soul can do on its own. . .If the soul exist then it MUST be able to exist on its own with out the brain. . .The brain exist on it own and has been shown to do EVERYTHING with regards to reasoning, thoughts, self awareness and consciousness. . .What can the elusive and "soul" do on its own so that we can know that it exist independently?. . .I can tell you about the oliver twist story independently of the book, show me that the elusive soul exist independently of the brain. . .

Anony, we will have more respect for you when you accept that you were wrong on a point rather than trying to change the debate by asking meaningless questions

.

Some of you are not reasoning and thinking outside the box.. you are not your brain.. thoughts Originate from the mind and not the brain.. the brain is a receiver. A transformer.. To put it mildly its a radio. In fact the whole body is a radio.

Behavioral changes sometimes happen during accidents or disruptions to the brain becuase like a radio any sort of damage to it affects its ability to receive a frequency signal.. nothing more nothing less

TroGunn:

Actually "thought" can be created in a lab- it's called AI - cpu- based systems do that all the time, making decisions based of inputs received.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9489002/How-long-before-robots-can-think-like-us.html

Of course, the human brain is much much much more sophisticated and capable that the smartest man-made computing system, so much so that it's an insult to the brain to do the comparo.

It's sad that Christians would reduce one of God's marvel to "useless lump of flesh", all in a bid to prove a non-existent undying being lurking beneath man. You'd think atheists would be the ones doing that. The human brain is an incredibly designed wonder - and it's the source of thoughts, feelings. That much is clear from what happens to brain damaged people. The undying soul theory is not from the Bible.

There is no point responding to this. Sometimes you have to shake your head at how desperate atheists will get to push a false point.

The question was can a human thought be created in the lab by modulating brain chemistry... and someone comes up with the CPU? Amazing.

mazaje:

You are just running around in circles and asking meaningless questions. . .Self awareness is a function of the brain without which you can NOT be self aware in the first place. . .A new born baby is not self aware. . .Self awareness grows over time. . . http://psychology.emory.edu/cognition/rochat/Five%20levels%20.pdf

From wikipedia it says Self-awareness is widely believed among psychologists to typically develop at about the age of one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_cognitive_development

Sight is a function of the eyes without which you can NOT make sense of images around you. Unfortunately the eye (like the brain) is merely a window. Without the brain to process images... the eye is naught but a useless camera. Ditto for the relationship between the brain and the soul.

davidylan:

Sight is a function of the eyes without which you can NOT make sense of images around you. Unfortunately the eye (like the brain) is merely a window. Without the brain to process images... the eye is naught but a useless camera. Ditto for the relationship between the brain and the soul.

BOOLSHIT!!!!

Soul has no physical function. Eye has a physical function- too see things. The brain interpreted the sight/ vision. How is that the same with the non-physical soul and the brain?

Logicboy03:



BOOLSHIT!!!!

Soul has no physical function. Eye has a physical function- too see things. The brain interpreted the sight/ vision. How is that the same with the non-physical soul and the brain?

Again you have put your foot in your mouth. I merely used that as an analogy... there is nothing to say that the soul must necessarily be physical... the point being it simply employs the brain as an outlet to the physical world just the same way the brain uses the eye purely as an outlet to the world.

Take a step back like mazaje and co... sometimes it is not necessarily to respond within 2 secs... you should take the time to think first. Frankly i fear this thread that has been going good so far will be ruined by the senseless rants of immature noise makers like you.

davidylan:

Again you have put your foot in your mouth. I merely used that as an analogy... there is nothing to say that the soul must necessarily be physical... the point being it simply employs the brain as an outlet to the physical world just the same way the brain uses the eye purely as an outlet to the world.

Take a step back like mazaje and co... sometimes it is not necessarily to respond within 2 secs... you should take the time to think first. Frankly i fear this thread that has been going good so far will be ruined by the senseless rants of immature noise makers like you.

Even more Boolshit!


Note the difference between me and Majaze. Majaze is patient and gives you the time to spread your BS. I am allergic to BS- I kill the BS from spreading like an infection.


Now for your failed analogy, the brain doesnt need the eye to negotiate the physical world, there are four other senses. It is a system.


There is no system of the spiritual world