Ihedinobi:

Lol. Another "God I want you to answer me and it must be on my terms!" What else is new? If you want God, you must take Him on His terms. That's where the humility alexleo spoke of comes in. Who are you that He should come to you? What do you think you are worthy of at the hands of the Almighty? Assume that there is indeed a God and tell me why you should be important to Him. My friend, God owes you absolutely nothing. He may love you, but He doesn't because you are so lovable, He does because it is just Him to love.

And what kind of believing person gives up?

\

i really find this kind of quotes disturbing. why shuld we b the ones seeking for God's face? someone created me, said he loves me more than anything. he is all powerful, all knowing. above all puts me in a tight corner, yets its all my duty to seek his face, again, i dont have a chioce cos if i dont seek him i will die in hell... pls imagine the Giod u are painting for someone to follow

Uyi Iredia:

ANd didn't God respond to Gideon when he set the terms down. Isn't it the same God who responded to the stuttering Moses when he asked for signs, the same God who rewarded Elisha's determination. If I want God to answer me in a particular way -especially for a good reason, to avoid confusion- I think an answer is deserved. A loving and humble God isn't so high-handed to answer the doubts of one of his children. A RESPONSIBLE human father wouldn't, talkless of God. I'm disappointed that you are even asking this questions because I always thought God made man precisely because of His love. In fact, I fear we are deviating from the issue I'm interested in which is a rebuttal to my points.

With reference to that last sentence, I have asked you, why should I be bothered with you and your points? Until you can answer that satisfactorily, I don't care to rebut anything.

I think it's rather funny though that you compare God to a responsible father. Sorry, when He says that He is much more than the parent that cares the most for the children, He meant even in kind. The beauty of God's love is that it is not a response to obligation at all. He doesn't owe you love, my friend. He owes you as much love as any carpenter owes a chair he made. So stop playing the responsibility card. If there's anyone in debt here, my friend, it is so you, all you, ever and only you. You can't answer for your responsibility, that's your problem, not His.

As for all that stuff about how He answered all those people, did you note that they were, at least in type, His children by birth more than children by creation? While you howl about God owing you response, He speaks to and with me everyday, guiding me and showing me the most stupefying things and at my request too, though He does that even without my asking. Why the difference? Because you see, I have the faculty, the facility, the equipment to discern His voice. Do you? Where did you get yours from? How does it work?

frank3.16:
\

i really find this kind of quotes disturbing. why shuld we b the ones seeking for God's face? someone created me, said he loves me more than anything. he is all powerful, all knowing. above all puts me in a tight corner, yets its all my duty to seek his face, again, i dont have a chioce cos if i dont seek him i will die in hell... pls imagine the Giod u are painting for someone to follow

Indeed, why should you be the one? And you say He should be the one? Why? Because He loves you? Or because He has more power and knowledge than you? So He should do all the work? Or because He put you in a tight corner? And how exactly? By being more powerful and knowledgeable than you? Or because you don't have a choice? Just what in the world were you trying to say up there? You guys really need to start thinking before you post.

@InesQor: I've read ur post. Would like to post a more detailed reply but on my mobile now.

@Uyi: You'll have to understand where the other guy's coming from to understand him. He believes God is not obligated to love us. He only chooses to, and like beggars, we must play by his rules. He's not a genie that will assent to our every wish.

Alfamann:

Lol. Is it heaven you want to go to? Where the God you hate is King? How smart!

Ihedinobi:

With reference to that last sentence, I have asked you, why should I be bothered with you and your points? Until you can answer that satisfactorily, I don't care to rebut anything.

I think it's rather funny though that you compare God to a responsible father. Sorry, when He says that He is much more than the parent that cares the most for the children, He meant even in kind. The beauty of God's love is that it is not a response to obligation at all. He doesn't owe you love, my friend. He owes you as much love as any carpenter owes a chair he made. So stop playing the responsibility card. If there's anyone in debt here, my friend, it is so you, all you, ever and only you. You can't answer for your responsibility, that's your problem, not His.

As for all that stuff about how He answered all those people, did you note that they were, at least in type, His children by birth more than children by creation? While you howl about God owing you response, He speaks to and with me everyday, guiding me and showing me the most stupefying things and at my request too, though He does that even without my asking. Why the difference? Because you see, I have the faculty, the facility, the equipment to discern His voice. Do you? Where did you get yours from? How does it work?

it seems that u are talking about someone u have created in ur mind, but not the God in the bible. but i will really like u to break down what u think God's love is, because ur xplanation above just got me confused.

bside i think if God answering our prayers must be on his terms 9in your words) then why do we pray? why do we ask? Jesus said "would a father give his son stone of he asks for bread? how much more our heavingly father" what are u then trying to say? is there anoter meaning to this that i dont see?

if i am sick and i pray for health, what term would God want? for me to suffer extra days? or for the sickness to get much worse(at the xpense of my suffering) so the more glory will b given to him when he eventually decised to answer?

Ihedinobi:

With reference to that last sentence, I have asked you, why should I be bothered with you and your points? Until you can answer that satisfactorily, I don't care to rebut anything.

You should because its your duty to answer the doubts of a Christian brother. I remember the Bible saying Christians should exhort themselves.

Ihedinobi: I think it's rather funny though that you compare God to a responsible father. Sorry, when He says that He is much more than the parent that cares the most for the children, He meant even in kind. The beauty of God's love is that it is not a response to obligation at all. He doesn't owe you love, my friend. He owes you as much love as any carpenter owes a chair he made. So stop playing the responsibility card. If there's anyone in debt here, my friend, it is so you, all you, ever and only you. You can't answer for your responsibility, that's your problem, not His.

Not if He (or the carpenter) says He is a loving God. If He says He is loving He has to live up to that responsibility. He can't be excused from it simply because He is |God. It should even apply more since he is an all-good God. And what am I in debt for.

Ihedinobi: As for all that stuff about how He answered all those people, did you note that they were, at least in type, His children by birth more than children by creation? While you howl about God owing you response, He speaks to and with me everyday, guiding me and showing me the most stupefying things and at my request too, though He does that even without my asking. Why the difference? Because you see, I have the faculty, the facility, the equipment to discern His voice. Do you? Where did you get yours from? How does it work?

What an inane reply. God didn't give birth to those people I mentioned. If you even mean born-again you are in error since the born-again concept came after Jesus' ordainment. We are not talking about your relationship we are talking about my points.

musKeeto: @InesQor: I've read ur post. Would like to post a more detailed reply but on my mobile now.

@Uyi: You'll have to understand where the other guy's coming from to understand him. He believes God is not obligated to love us. He only chooses to, and like beggars, we must play by his rules. He's not a genie that will assent to our every wish.

So where did you get the part in emphasis from or did you just make it up to suit your antagonism?

@Uyi Iredia

FYI https://www.nairaland.com/1223552/q-jesus-problem-evil#14737450

Trust me, you'll never be the same after watching the whole series

musKeeto: @InesQor: I've read ur post. Would like to post a more detailed reply but on my mobile now.

@Uyi: You'll have to understand where the other guy's coming from to understand him. He believes God is not obligated to love us. He only chooses to, and like beggars, we must play by his rules. He's not a genie that will assent to our every wish.

Neither am I saying God is a genie. But if I'm given the picture of a loving and caring God and I note something that contradicts that then its my duty to come to the relevant conclusion. I gave reasons why God is not loving. Instead of rebuttals I get 'He needs prayers' and 'God is not obligated to love you'.

amdatam: @Uyi Iredia

FYI https://www.nairaland.com/1223552/q-jesus-problem-evil#14737450

Trust me, you'll never be the same after watching the whole series

What's the series about. Please summarize it.

Uyi Iredia:

I did ask in humility and faith. And there was no reply. I don't mean some reply through a voice in your head which is you. I needed a clear reply like the ones seen in the \bible. God's reply to Elijah's request for fire, God calling out to Moses from the burning bush.[size=16pt]A clear unmistakable voice of God.[/size] I didn't get that. And yet you have the balls to put the blame on my so-called lack of faith. I'm still waiting for replies to THE POINTS I RAISED - the ones in the OP. So far, I'm not impressed with your response, or the others.

I sh1t you not!!!! that is so gangsta Mr. Uyi Iredia; at this rate, you shall soon turn HARD CORE like


BTW pls try and read that link @Ooman sent; you might need that!

frank3.16:


it seems that u are talking about someone u have created in ur mind, but not the God in the bible. but i will really like u to break down what u think God's love is, because ur xplanation above just got me confused.

bside i think if God answering our prayers must be on his terms 9in your words) then why do we pray? why do we ask? Jesus said "would a father give his son stone of he asks for bread? how much more our heavingly father" what are u then trying to say? is there anoter meaning to this that i dont see?

if i am sick and i pray for health, what term would God want? for me to suffer extra days? or for the sickness to get much worse(at the xpense of my suffering) so the more glory will b given to him when he eventually decised to answer?

How perfectly silly. My friend, if God is all-knowing, would it not follow that He should always answer us according to what He knows is best for us rather than what we think is best for us? Consider Hezekiah in the Bible as an example since it is the Bible God we're indeed discussing. Did God not grant what he asked for and extend his life for another fifteen years? What was the direct result of that? Judah was invaded by the same nation to whom Hezekiah opened all his wealth when they sent emissaries to congratulate him on his recovery and led into captivity. You seem to assume that you know perfectly well what is good for you, why then do you give a damn about God and trouble yourself about people who willingly give themselves over to a God they believe knows what's best for them?

frank3.16:
\

i really find this kind of quotes disturbing. why shuld we b the ones seeking for God's face? someone created me, said he loves me more than anything. he is all powerful, all knowing. above all puts me in a tight corner, yets its all my duty to seek his face, again, i dont have a chioce cos if i dont seek him i will die in hell... pls imagine the Giod u are painting for someone to follow

So unfortunate!!!!

People like Ihedinobi and the nonsense they keep posting here will continue to be the reason why people will continue to leave christianity. . . Ihedinobi PLEASE read the nonsense you have been typing and see if it makes any sense to you. . .Even your fellow christians here are seeing through your nonsense. . .If you don't have any sensible thing to post just watch. . .You must not post by force. . .

Ihedinobi:

How perfectly silly. My friend, if God is all-knowing, would it not follow that He should always answer us according to what He knows is best for us rather than what we think is best for us? Consider Hezekiah in the Bible as an example since it is the Bible God we're indeed discussing. Did God not grant what he asked for and extend his life for another fifteen years? What was the direct result of that? Judah was invaded by the same nation to whom Hezekiah opened all his wealth when they sent emissaries to congratulate him on his recovery and led into captivity. You seem to assume that you know perfectly well what is good for you, why then do you give a damn about God and trouble yourself about people who willingly give themselves over to a God they believe knows what's best for them?

I once narrated a story about some christian missionaries that were on an evengalism trip but had an accident in adamawa state that left 3 of them bedridden for the rest of their lives. . .Pls what good does your god have in leaving people that called out to his name for journey mercies on his own project(evangelism)?. . .How does being bedridden and becoming a problem unto your self and your family have a better reason or cause?. . .STOP lying to your self and to others. . .You are not even ashamed of trying to speak for a being that is alleged to be all knowing, all powerful and wants to have a personal relationship with them. . .You think if your god truly exist he will allow people like you to do his bidding for him?. . .The fact that you are the one telling people about your god and how he operates shows that he is imaginary and exist only in your imaginations. . .

Uyi Iredia:

You should because its your duty to answer the doubts of a Christian brother. I remember the Bible saying Christians should exhort themselves.

Excuse me! Oh, but we all of our family have a birthmark and it is faith and you have suddenly said that yours is actually cosmetic or carry-on, not really part of your system. Er, Christians never doubt who their Father is even if they don't always comprehend Him. They always only question what He might mean, they never never paint Him for a liar. See? That's why I don't see you as one. In any case, I acquiesce, I will answer you exactly like I would a Christian brother, I will even go so far as to actually think that you are really one in a very bad muddle.

Not if He (or the carpenter) says He is a loving God. If He says He is loving He has to live up to that responsibility. He can't be excused from it simply because He is |God. It should even apply more since he is an all-good God. And what am I in debt for.

Believe me, it's better that I ignore this having said the above. Because this is antiChristian as they come.

What an inane reply. God didn't give birth to those people I mentioned. If you even mean born-again you are in error since the born-again concept came after Jesus' ordainment. We are not talking about your relationship we are talking about my points.

Well well well! Ok, I can also let this go. I'll tell you, my brother, Christianity and the 'born-again' or 'born-anew' concept is older than creation itself. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, from the very beginning the terms of the new covenant were in force, at least in principle, for which reason I said "in type". Everyone from Adam to Christ who dealt with God according to the principle of seeking a worthiness greater than themselves, the substitute that is acceptable to God was living under the terms of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was modeled after the New even though we didn't know the New until Christ perfected it before our eyes. I excuse ignorance of this because it is not quite that elementary to the Faith we have received.

---

Uyi Iredia: I no longer believe the Christian God is one filled with love.

Not a good way to start an inquiry.

For I can no longer ignore the brutality of killing a supposed sinless child in order to forgive a people.

Why 'supposed'?

As an atheist rightly asked; why not just forgive ?

A question a Christian would never ask, since the event of the New Birth is predicated on it. The first and possibly most important problem with this question is 'what is forgiveness?' Would you like to try and answer that?

Neither do I agree with the wiping out of villages and cities as documented in the OT or the extremely harsh curse in the garden for a crime.

So there is perhaps some higher moral code to which you appeal to judge these actions wrong. Could you explain this code to us?

A God of love doesn't indiscriminately kill or punish those who had nothing to do with the crime as done in thwe garden or as stated when God said he punishes down to the 3rd and 4th generation of sinners.

Ok. So how do you know what a God of love does or doesn't do?

Put simply, I no longer believe (as I once did) that the Christian God is loving.

Then why exactly do you want Christians to treat you like a brother? Do you accept that there might be a chance that you're wrong right now?

Alfamann:

The christians here are shaking in their faith but most are in denial because of family and social pressures.

Bullsheeit.

mazaje:

I once narrated a story about some christian missionaries that were on an evengalism trip but had an accident in adamawa state that left 3 of them bedridden for the rest of their lives. . .Pls what good does your god have in leaving people that called out to his name for journey mercies on his own project(evangelism)?. . .How does being bedridden and becoming a problem unto your self and your family have a better reason or cause?. . .STOP lying to your self and to others. . .You are not even ashamed of trying to speak for a being that is alleged to be all knowing, all powerful and wants to have a personal relationship with them. . .You think if your god truly exist he will allow people like you to do his bidding for him?. . .The fact that you are the one telling people about your god and how he operates shows that he is imaginary and exist only in your imaginations. . .

Lol. You know that your questions and arguments are premised on the notion that you know better than an all-knowing God, right? Well, do you want to take this opportunity to show us how you do. That you have no conception of the good that can come out of the troubles and evils people face does not mean that there is no good that can come out of them any more than an ignorance on your part of the fact that the Chinese have amazing proverbs does not mean that they don't.

mazaje: People like Ihedinobi and the nonsense they keep posting here will continue to be the reason why people will continue to leave christianity. . . Ihedinobi PLEASE read the nonsense you have been typing and see if it makes any sense to you. . .Even your fellow christians here are seeing through your nonsense. . .If you don't have any sensible thing to post just watch. . .You must not post by force. . .

Lol. People 'leave' Christianity because they were never in it in the first place, my friend. And where is all this insensible stuff you keep referring to? Uh, and where are these Christians who are seeing through this nonsense that you haven't described yet?

Edited.

Ihedinobi:
Excuse me! Oh, but we all of our family have a birthmark and it is faith and you have suddenly said that yours is actually cosmetic or carry-on, not really part of your system. Er, Christians never doubt who their Father is even if they don't always comprehend Him. They always only question what He might mean, they never never paint Him for a liar. See? That's why I don't see you as one. In any case, I acquiesce, I will answer you exactly like I would a Christian brother, I will even go so far as to actually think that you are really one in a very bad muddle.

It makes no sense to believe what you don't comprehend. Your belief is based on your comprehension. In any case, its good you intend to answer me - as you should.

Ihedinobi: Believe me, it's better that I ignore this having said the above. Because this is antiChristian as they come.

You're sounding just like logicboy when in a pit. Start making complaints. Answer them ! Even if they are anti-Christian.

Ihedinobi: Well well well! Ok, I can also let this go. I'll tell you, my brother, Christianity and the 'born-again' or 'born-anew' concept is older than creation itself. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, from the very beginning the terms of the new covenant were in force, at least in principle, for which reason I said "in type". Everyone from Adam to Christ who dealt with God according to the principle of seeking a worthiness greater than themselves, the substitute that is acceptable to God was living under the terms of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was modeled after the New even though we didn't know the New until Christ perfected it before our eyes. I excuse ignorance of this because it is not quite that elementary to the Faith we have received.

No, he wasn't slain from the foundation of the earth. He was pre-destined to be slain. In any case it is VERY CLEAR the people in question weren't 'birthed by God'. They, as I and you, were birthed by their parents.

Ihedinobi:
Bless the Lord for utterance, my brother. I was sure you knew what you were talking about. And this post only proves it. You are right. Our friends really don't think before they come to their conclusions. The philosophical problems they create about God are all quite simply addressed by a more involved consideration of whatever it is they're pondering.

I don't know the first time I worried at the issue of free will, but I know that I wished many times that I had none. And if you wish for something hard enough, you can start to think it's really there. Free will must go with a God Who loves us but is nonetheless firm in His Purpose for us and wise enough to work around our power of choice without violating it. And that essentially means that the God in question must be well beyond us intellectually and when we compare things, we'll need an entirely different scale to deal with values on His level.

Exactly! The concept of us exerting our freewill against God's desires is quite like you being a nanny for a young, spoilt royal prince who is used to getting whatever he wants. It will take your superior wisdom to know how to handle the child's freewill without violating it. In some cases, the King has allowed you to take some actions with the spoilt child no matter what the child says (this is akin to the things that are impossible to man no matter their freewill). But in the majority of cases, the prince exerts his freewill and will do whatsoever he wants. You may even seem foolish to an observer, with the way you have to go around the spoilt prince's freewill.

This position is where God has placed us, allowing us to make our choices without restriction, whatever it is and yet knowing how to handle things to prevent excesses that can greatly damage the big picture. And, for every decision that we make, there is an end that cannot be escaped. And God knows the end of each and every such decision.

Ishilove:
Bullsheeit.

Did you learn that from your personal lord and saviour?

Uyi Iredia:

It makes no sense to believe what you don't comprehend. Your belief is based on your comprehension. In any case, its good you intend to answer me - as you should.

Now the above makes perfect sense, doesn't it? So you comprehend all the workings of the electronics that allow you to type up your posts, do you? And everytime you click submit, you actually understand how those things you've typed appear on my screen, do you?

You're sounding just like logicboy when in a pit. Start making complaints. Answer them ! Even if they are anti-Christian.

Am I. I don't have to!

No, he wasn't slain from the foundation of the earth. He was pre-destined to be slain. In any case it is VERY CLEAR the people in question weren't 'birthed by God'. They, as I and you, were birthed by their parents.

Um, He wasn't? The Bible's wrong then? So we shouldn't refer to it as authority in our discussion, should we? Because if indeed the Bible's evidence is admissible, my argument holds firm.

---

Maybe it's my eyes, but I can't see the rest of your response. Or didn't you answer the rest of my post?

Ishilove:
Bullsheeit.

Finally, a woman. I need your input.

Uyi Iredia:

ANd didn't God respond to Gideon when he set the terms down. Isn't it the same God who responded to the stuttering Moses when he asked for signs, the same God who rewarded Elisha's determination. If I want God to answer me in a particular way -especially for a good reason, to avoid confusion- I think an answer is deserved. A loving and humble God isn't so high-handed to answer the doubts of one of his children. A RESPONSIBLE human father wouldn't, talkless of God. I'm disappointed that you are even asking this questions because I always thought God made man precisely because of His love. In fact, I fear we are deviating from the issue I'm interested in which is a rebuttal to my points.

And can you confidently say that you ve served God so dedicated and walked before him in holiness as these men you ve mentioned? God is there for us all and he has told us he is holy. The major prayer that God will appreciate much from a sinner is the prayer of repentance and salvation (am not calling you a sinner). Doesnt that tell you that God is much interested in holiness more than anything you ll ask of him. he said be ye holy for i am Holy. The men you mentioned were holy before him and i can assure you that if you can devote your self to God and walk in holiness like Elijah and co he will answer you like them. Again check the new testament, how did God speak to the apostles?

From the book Uyi read:

[size=14pt]We are told that Divine qualities are not of a nature to be grasped by
limited minds. The natural consequence of this principle ought to be that
the Divine qualities are not made to employ limited minds; but religion
assures us that limited minds should never lose sight of this inconceivable
being, whose qualities can not be grasped by them: from which we see that
religion is the art of occupying limited minds with that which is impossible
for them to comprehend.[/size]

InesQor: @Ihedinobi:

Yes! My analogy is overly simplistic but I hoped it will provide a new perspective. The OT and NT are like two sides of a coin, it takes a keen perception to see how one foretells the other and the other fulfills the one.

Also, my usage of "apparent change" in the OT/NT Yahweh is, an apparent difference looking from a skeptic's perception. To me God has never changed one bit.

Sometimes I wonder: some skeptics argue against the idea that God made hard decisions in a bid not to contravene man's freewill; and I'm like, as against what exactly? Was it preferable for God to leave us all no choice in the matter? In which case their clamor would be: why didn't he give us freewill. Oh wait, they won't even be able to complain sef.

Ihedinobi:

Bless the Lord for utterance, my brother. I was sure you knew what you were talking about. And this post only proves it. You are right. Our friends really don't think before they come to their conclusions. The philosophical problems they create about God are all quite simply addressed by a more involved consideration of whatever it is they're pondering.

I don't know the first time I worried at the issue of free will, but I know that I wished many times that I had none. And if you wish for something hard enough, you can start to think it's really there. Free will must go with a God Who loves us but is nonetheless firm in His Purpose for us and wise enough to work around our power of choice without violating it. And that essentially means that the God in question must be well beyond us intellectually and when we compare things, we'll need an entirely different scale to deal with values on His level.

This is case of confirmation bias.You people force reality/facts to meet your God. Your arguments about freewill can only make sense when there is no God involved-

No God = Man is responsible for his actions and should do the best he can while alive.
Omnipotent God = No Freewill, all is foreseen and predestined by God. Choice is an illusion
God is the Creator of everything = God created evil, diseases and suffering

alexleo:

And can you confidently say that you ve served God so dedicated and walked before him in holiness as these men you ve mentioned? God is there for us all and he has told us he is holy. The major prayer that God will appreciate much from a sinner is the prayer of repentance and salvation (am not calling you a sinner). Doesnt that tell you that God is much interested in holiness more than anything you ll ask of him. he said be ye holy for i am Holy. The men you mentioned were holy before him and i can assure you that if you can devote your self to God and walk in holiness like Elijah and co he will answer you like them. Again check the new testament, how did God speak to the apostles?

What did these men do that christians like Uyi Iredia didnt do?

Ihedinobi:
Not a good way to start an inquiry.

Of course you would say that. You don't agree with it.

Ihedinobi: Why 'supposed'?

Why else ? Because Christians suppose Christ sinless.

Ihedinobi: A question a Christian would never ask, since the event of the New Birth is predicated on it. The first and possibly most important problem with this question is 'what is forgiveness?' Would you like to try and answer that?

Here's a definition of forgiveness: to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. And I see no reason why I should ask it for indeed it is not usual to place conditions for forgiveness. And it is rare, if it at all exists, for someone to forgive only after blood has been shed - as God did. I think you're jumping the question since you have no answer to it.

Ihedinobi: So there is perhaps some higher moral code to which you appeal to judge these actions wrong. Could you explain this code to us?

From the sense of right and wrong I have as a human. Not some code.

Ihedinobi: Ok. So how do you know what a God of love does or doesn't do?

Same reason as above. And I would add here that a God of love wouldn't permit evil.

Ihedinobi: Then why exactly do you want Christians to treat you like a brother? Do you accept that there might be a chance that you're wrong right now?

If I'm wrong. Show me how. So far you're failing at it.

InesQor:

Exactly! The concept of us exerting our freewill against God's desires is quite like you being a nanny for a young, spoilt royal prince who is used to getting whatever he wants. It will take your superior wisdom to know how to handle the child's freewill without violating it. In some cases, the King has allowed you to take some actions with the spoilt child no matter what the child says (this is akin to the things that are impossible to man no matter their freewill). But in the majority of cases, the prince exerts his freewill and will do whatsoever he wants. You may even seem foolish to an observer, with the way you have to go around the spoilt prince's freewill.

This position is where God has placed us, allowing us to make our choices without restriction, whatever it is and yet knowing how to handle things to prevent excesses that can greatly damage the big picture. And, for every decision that we make, there is an end that cannot be escaped. And God knows the end of each and every such decision.

Perfect! Very true about that end. I think that what our friends want is the freedom to do whatever they please and have no consequences to face.

alexleo:
And can you confidently say that you ve served God so dedicated and walked before him in holiness as these men you ve mentioned? God is there for us all and he has told us he is holy. The major prayer that God will appreciate much from a sinner is the prayer of repentance and salvation (am not calling you a sinner). Doesnt that tell you that God is much interested in holiness more than anything you ll ask of him. he said be ye holy for i am Holy. The men you mentioned were holy before him and i can assure you that if you can devote your self to God and walk in holiness like Elijah and co he will answer you like them. Again check the new testament, how did God speak to the apostles?

Gideon wavered in doubt and therefore needed a sign from God to be convinced. Moses was a runaway killer. These are the men God used. Never mind we don't know all the details of their lives. In any case, what matters is there is no answer - either from God or the Christians. Maybe you should consider yourself a vessel for God to answer me.