I had this talk with a Muslim school mate and the discussion drifted here and there and landed on the crusades. I was surprised at the pained farcade she put up. She was angry almost, and ranted a while about this and that and this. I could have believed the stuff happened yesterday If I hadn't known better. I couldn't help but educate her on the build up to and what actually caused the crusade. She sobered up.

This got me thinking. Why are Muslims raw about the crusades? Is it lack of historical background to the actual events or just another convenient fuel to the anti-west/christian fire?

In the mind of an Islamophobe a single persons action equates the unobserved actions of billions, . . . Offcourse in statistics that is being gravely ignorant of reality, for something to constitute the opinion of a majority, u must have sampled their opinion in its entirety or sample a representative sample of the population, u did neither rather like an a typical Nigerian fanatic, u simply invented a tall tale to sell! The real question should be why do Nigerians typically allow fanaticism to cloud their judgment? Better still why do NLanders allow fanaticism to cloud their judgement?

tiarabubu: I had this talk with a Muslim school mate and the discussion drifted here and there and landed on the crusades. I was surprised at the pained farcade she put up. She was angry almost, and ranted a while about this and that and this. I could have believed the stuff happened yesterday If I hadn't known better. I couldn't help but educate her on the build up to and what actually caused the crusade. She sobered up.

This got me thinking. Why are Muslims raw about the crusades? Is it lack of historical background to the actual events or just another convenient fuel to the anti-west/christian fire?

Please, tell us the story of the crusades as you know it.

Vedaxcool is correct, what is her sample size for such a generalization? One person

Mac, By now you should know tiaraburu only sees one side of the picture... waste of time... As devastating as the crusades were in the east, they were heroes in europe... Which side do you tiaraburu is on? What story is she going to tell?

tbaba1234: Vedaxcool is correct, what is her sample size for such a generalization? One person

Mac, By now you should know tiaraburu only sees one side of the picture... waste of time... As devastating as the crusades were in the east, they were heroes in europe... Which side do you tiaraburu is on? What story is she going to tell?

I value intelligence a great deal and she is intelligent even if she seems to be off-colour these days. It should be interesting to read what she thinks/knows of the crusades.

^ Anyone can summarize her side for you, it does not take intelligence to write about the crusades. All you need to do is google 'crusades' and you will get as much information as you need. To get Tiaraburu side, just look for the one that makes Islam look the most evil.

tbaba1234: ^ Anyone can summarize her side for you, it does not take intelligence to write about the crusades. All you need to do is google 'crusades' and you will get as much information as you need. To get Tiaraburu side, just look for the one that makes Islam look the most evil.

LOL, oh dear! Tiarabubu is something of an outlaw here. That is the problem, the lady has consumed too much antiislamic propaganda and enjoys presenting them as unquestionable facts. Patience my people, show her patience.

Hey hey guys! Chill! Why y'all rushing at me like this.... One at a time, your questions shall be answered.

vedaxcool: In the mind of an Islamophobe a single persons action equates the unobserved actions of billions, . . . Offcourse in statistics that is being gravely ignorant of reality, for something to constitute the opinion of a majority, u must have sampled their opinion in its entirety or sample a representative sample of the population, u did neither rather like an a typical Nigerian fanatic, u simply invented a tall tale to sell! The real question should be why do Nigerians typically allow fanaticism to cloud their judgment? Better still why do NLanders allow fanaticism to cloud their judgement?

Single persons action? Really? This is what Vedaxcool himself had to say about the crusades just 10 days ago. Na so you dey forget?

Christians are here down playing the deaths of muslims and shias are here backing them up very and even labeling it a terrorist cry! Truly need dua this sort of thing is not new it was witness in crusades, the mongol invasion, Iraq, etc https://www.nairaland.com/1221369/srebrenica-massacre/1


Did I hear tbaba123 agree with vedaxcool? Really? this is what tbaba123 himself had to say about the crusade a couple of months ago;

Do not tell me you want to defend the crusades, you will just commit suicide here.... If you believe the nonsense you wrote, all i can say is that it is quite sad. Murderous western christians killing women and children and fellow eastern christians in the name of God... https://www.nairaland.com/1053141/5-examples-outstanding-muslim-tolerance/5#12271978


So I dont clog up reading space, there are several Muslims on this forum who have made reference to the crusades to suggest it was some form of gross injustice (my personal stance is that religiously and scripturally, it was unjustifiable despite the circumstances Europe found itsself at the time, and have stated so before and now).

What about the ummah worldwide? the examples are plenty; The frequent reference to the west as crusaders, and a major outrage about George Bush's slip up in that "crusade" speech of September 16, 2001. Many in the Muslim community claimed outrage. It will serve no useful purpose to paste many links here, but condemnation poured in from the Muslim world in torrents. Its all online. You get the gist?


Why the raw edge? And, more importantly, the miseducation about the events leading to the crusades? Maybe if many Muslims knew that particular history without embellishments, the term "crusades" will not evoke so much emotion that contributes to the sometimes strained relationships between Muslims and Christians. Another good reason will be to free up the word "crusade" from the dark cupboards of political correctness for the world to enjoy it in its truest form and meaning.

tbaba1234: ^ Anyone can summarize her side for you, it does not take intelligence to write about the crusades. All you need to do is google 'crusades' and you will get as much information as you need. To get Tiaraburu side, just look for the one that makes Islam look the most evil.

Hahaha!

And you look for the one that makes Islam looks sooooo good......! just one example....

https://www.nairaland.com/1053141/5-examples-outstanding-muslim-tolerance/5#12271978

To me, no one on Nairaland embellishes history like you do. And thats what i find dissapointing about you. You sweeten the tales too much. Coming clean doesnt hurt.

maclatunji:

LOL, oh dear! Tiarabubu is something of an outlaw here. That is the problem, the lady has consumed too much antiislamic propaganda and enjoys presenting them as unquestionable facts. Patience my people, show her patience.

With you am covered!

Seriously, sir, I have not consumed too much anti-Islamic propaganda. You can see from my posts, I do not insult the Prophet nor Islam or say the really silly and nasty stuff some say here. Do I?

I. That people mention the crusades in statements does not mean they are 'raw' about it. It was something that lasted for centuries and certainly would get mentioned time and again. The truth is that there is nothing to get 'raw' about, the crusades were a massive failure militarily apart from the first one(to a much lesser extent the third one). Most of them were suicide missions and failed miserably. The fourth crusade took Constantinople and Byzantine Empire was never the same again. It is no surprise that the Muslims finally succeeded in taking it.

The taking of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade had been just short of fatal to the Byzantine Empire, and it cast a blemish on the movement in the West, where there were critics of the whole concept of armed Crusades. While Constantinople was not taken by the Turks until 1453, the Byzantine Empire after the Fourth Crusade was but a shell of its former self. http://history-world.org/crusades.htm

It had economic and trade benefits but it failed in its major aims. It would get mentioned because it was a major event but that should not be misinterpreted as rawness.

2. I am a muslim, I love Islam because it is an absolutely incredible religion. I have been blown away by my study of the Quran. That i talk good about Islam is hardly surprising and should be expected, it is the way i see it. I rarely go to christian threads to say things about their religion, i am hardly interested . But you are always here trying to attack muslim threads even innocent threads like the srebrenica massacre. You have consumed a lot of anti-Islam propaganda, you just do not use foul language that's all.

tiarabubu:

With you am covered!

Seriously, sir, I have not consumed too much anti-Islamic propaganda. You can see from my posts, I do not insult the Prophet nor Islam or say the really silly and nasty stuff some say here. Do I?

That is why I say you are intelligent. However, not insulting does not equate to not consuming propaganda. I observe critically and know what I speak of. So, where is my story?

maclatunji:

That is why I say you are intelligent. However, not insulting does not equate to not consuming propaganda. I observe critically and know what I speak of. So, where is my story?

You are quite right. But let me assure you, I have not consumed propaganda.

Before I lay me down my points, I still want to know why the Crusades invokes such emotions. May be if I know, my points will not be necessary anymore, who knows. Maybe merely laying down historical facts from my side will not address the issue. Let us understand ourselves. I want to know.

tbaba1234: I. That people mention the crusades in statements does not mean they are 'raw' about it. It was something that lasted for centuries and certainly would get mentioned time and again. The truth is that there is nothing to get 'raw' about, the crusades were a massive failure militarily apart from the first one(to a much lesser extent the third one). Most of them were suicide missions and failed miserably. The fourth crusade took Constantinople and Byzantine Empire was never the same again. It is no surprise that the Muslims finally succeeded in taking it.



It had economic and trade benefits but it failed in its major aims. It would get mentioned because it was a major event but that should not be misinterpreted as rawness.

2. I am a muslim, I love Islam because it is an absolutely incredible religion. I have been blown away by my study of the Quran. That i talk good about Islam is hardly surprising and should be expected, it is the way i see it. I rarely go to christian threads to say things about their religion, i am hardly interested . But you are always here trying to attack muslim threads even innocent threads like the srebrenica massacre. You have consumed a lot of anti-Islam propaganda, you just do not use foul language that's all.

No one doubts your love for Islam. I interject in Muslim threads its because of :

(i)misstatements and misconceptions, such as contained in;
https://www.nairaland.com/1009884/why-muslims-think-comforter-jesus

(2)embellishments, such as in ;
https://www.nairaland.com/1053141/5-examples-outstanding-muslim-tolerance


(3) outright attack on Christianity such as in:
https://www.nairaland.com/1137666/surah-maryam-address-christians#13480710


I never interject when you make other threads like "The People of Sound Mind" or "A Journey Through The Quran.... The Amazing Quran Season 1 & 2" etc. You are exploring your religion with other Muslims and its not my biz.

So, I dont attack Muslim threads, I try to correct your innuendos and outright misstatements which you bury within some of your emotional write ups. So, don't get it twisted.

When you misyarn don't expect silence from me. Sorry!

tiarabubu:

You are quite right. But let me assure you, I have not consumed propaganda.

Before I lay me down my points, I still want to know why the Crusades invokes such emotions. May be if I know, my points will not be necessary anymore, who knows. Maybe merely laying down historical facts from my side will not address the issue. Let us understand ourselves. I want to know.

You can't build something on nothing. You have submitted that Muslims are overly emotional about the crusades. I am trying to be objective here and acting as if I have never heard of the crusades. So, I am asking you to tell me about these historical events that you feel Muslims are overly emotional about.

Ofcourse, if you keep it restricted to the christian related threads then no problem. Even though, you sometimes do a poor job at proving these 'misstatements', your contributions are welcome if you stick to the topic.

tbaba1234: Ofcourse, if you keep it restricted to the christian related threads then no problem.

Really. Why should I keep it "restricted" to Christian related thread while you go there as you please? Its a free world in case you haven't noticed.

tbaba1234: Even though, you sometimes do a poor job at proving these 'misstatements', your contributions are welcome if you stick to the topic.

Lol! I didnt expect you to say otherwise!

You are funny. Abeg....stick to the topic, please.

maclatunji:

You can't build something on nothing. You have submitted that Muslims are overly emotional about the crusades. I am trying to be objective here and acting as if I have never heard of the crusades. So, I am asking you to tell me about these historical events that you feel Muslims are overly emotional about.

Again you are right. One can't build something on nothing.

But I am building on something. My questions are as a result of observations of the reactions of some people to an event. That is something. I want to find out why and then take it from there. I want to systematic.

If I allow you to coax this out of me, I might not get to know what I intend to find out; why are some Muslims view the crusades as gross injustice.

If I get no response then I have to conclude that the view has no basis and is therefore unnecessary.

Shei you grab?

i know you can't resist...

Your topic is based on nothing really...

^^^^^

Really? That's your opinion. Its ok to air it!

tiarabubu:

Again you are right. One can't build something on nothing.

But I am building on something. My questions are as a result of observations of the reactions of some people to an event. That is something. I want to find out why and then take it from there. I want to systematic.

If I allow you to coax this out of me, I might not get to know what I intend to find out; why are some Muslims view the crusades as gross injustice.

If I get no response then I have to conclude that the view has no basis and is therefore unnecessary.

Shei you grab?

You are falling my hand seriously. You want to do research and someone is asking for definition of terms. You say 'no o, I can only define terms until I have research findings.' What kind of researcher are you?

tiarabubu: Hey hey guys! Chill! Why y'all rushing at me like this.... One at a time, your questions shall be answered.




Single persons action? Really? This is what Vedaxcool himself had to say about the crusades just 10 days ago. Na so you dey forget?

Christians are here down playing the deaths of muslims and shias are here backing them up very and even labeling it a terrorist cry! Truly need dua this sort of thing is not new it was witness in crusades, the mongol invasion, Iraq, etc https://www.nairaland.com/1221369/srebrenica-massacre/1
.

Lol see me see wahala, do u see the problem with Nigerians generally, even when shown how to be objective they still come back insisting on remaining in the dark, I mean while I understand many christian have difficulty reading within the context of the bible I did not know it also affects people like u ability to read ordinary statements I made, I mean christians like u would interpret a statement like by myself I can do nothing equates to by myself I can do everything etc but when veda write a statement directed at shias became being raw about the crusades? Bush used the crusade as a word of choice in naming Americas war against Iraq, is he also raw about it? In the same statement I made, I made references to mongol invasion, Iraq war that would have suffice to understand the context I was making but well we "trust" you when it comes to engaging in such dishonest tactics of proving ur points, I mean . . . The end justifies the means right? I wonder how true your story is or how twisted it has become? Hmm, but the greatest tragedy so far is that u have refused to learn the simple fact that your claims are illogical and not worth addressing, now u pointed to three people's opinion (1 it seems u made up, 2 u deliberately took out of context) which statistically cannot be used to define muslims opinions generally or otherwise . . . I only hope u when u insist on defending the illogical u also will be willing to accept such 1 person's account as enough evidence in describing christians generally!

^^^^^

maclatunji:

You are falling my hand seriously. You want to do research and someone is asking for definition of terms. You say 'no o, I can only define terms until I have research findings.' What kind of researcher are you?

Definition of terms?

If a person has no idea of what the crusades are, then they are not among my study population. I dont have to tell them about the crusades first. I am not concerned what they think of the crusades after hearing about it from me, but what they currently think about it based on what they think they know.

If they heard it from me first ie I have the opportunity to shape their thinking, how objective would this my little study be, huh?

tiarabubu:

Definition of terms?

If a person has no idea of what the crusades are, then they are not among my study population. I dont have to tell them about the crusades first. I am not concerned what they think of the crusades after hearing about it from me, but what they currently think about it based on what they think they know.

If they heard it from me first ie I have the opportunity to shape their thinking, how objective would this my little study be, huh?

No my friend, when someone asks you to define terms in a research, they are asking you to define what the concepts mean to you not your study population. Why? Your research findings are not for you alone. Anybody reading your report should be able to see things from your own perspective not theirs as their knowledge is not important to your findings.

tiarabubu: ^^^^^

next please!

maclatunji:

No my friend, when someone asks you to define terms in a research, they are asking you to define what the concepts mean to you not your study population. Why? Your research findings are not for you alone. Anybody reading your report should be able to see things from your own perspective not theirs as their knowledge is not important to your findings.

cru·sade (kr-sd)
n.
1. often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/crusade

You have your definition of terms. Can you tell me why some Muslims (don't know about you, but you can include yourself if it applies to you sha) can seem to let go of the crusades?

tiarabubu:

cru·sade (kr-sd)
n.
1. often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/crusade

You have your definition of terms. Can you tell me why some Muslims (don't know about you, but you can include yourself if it applies to you sha) can seem to let go of the crusades?

You had better give a more detailed definition under your conceptual framework. In addition, give us some literature on the matter to appreciate.

^^^^^^

Nice try Mac.....

If you think you can lead me on, forget it. Its as far as it goes.

By this time next week, if I get no response, I will have to adopt my assumption.

tiarabubu: ^^^^^^

Nice try Mac.....

If you think you can lead me on, forget it. Its as far as it goes.

By this time next week, if I get no response, I will have to adopt my assumption.

And how will that change the price of bread?

^^^^^^

The same way your 9 posts above have changed the price of Mama Yekini's garri in your neighborhood market!

Well, after waiting for over 6 months and having no response to why there seem to be consternation and feeling of injustice by some Muslims by the crusades of time past, I have come to the realization that the feeling of anger is borne out of the inadequate knowledge of why and how the Crusades came about. It was, simply, a belated response by Christendom for 4 centuries of unreplied aggression, conquests and subjugation of Christian lands by Muslims in the quests for its (Islams) spread.

I hereunder present a very brief timeline of the events from the time of Prophet Muhammad to Pope Urban (who finally decided to do something about the eminent threat to the west and Christendom). As can be seen, getting emotionally worked up on the crusades is completely unjustifiable in the light of history and facts.

If the tables were turned, would it have taken 4 centuries for a reply to unbridled conquests?

AD 610 - Prophet Muhammad receives revelation to be a messenger of God

AD 632 - Prophet Muhammad dies but not before giving orders for the invasion of Iraq

AD 633 - Muslims invade Syria (then a majority Christian nation) and Iraq unprovoked conquering both

AD 635 - Muslims seize Damascus (an important city of Christian learning)

AD 637 - Muslims seize Persia

AD 637 - Muslims seize Jerusalem and plunder the city

AD 639 - Muslims invade and seize Eqypt, another major Christian country at the time

AD 641 - Muslims seize Azerbaijan, Daghestan, Armenia and Georgia

AD 654 - Muslims seize Cyprus another major Christian stronghold

AD 668 - Muslims lay siege on Constantinople (Istanbul, Turkey), a then Christian City, for 7 years. The inhabitants fought back bravely for their city succeeding only through the use of Greek fire (a medieval instrument of war)

AD 669 - Muslims invade Morocco

AD 674 - Muslim invasion was soon to reach the Indus River (Pakistan and co)

AD 698 - Muslims invade and capture Carthage (Modern Tunisia)

AD 711 - Muslims capture the entire Persian empire including Spain and begin to invade Afganistan

AD 717 - Muslims again unprovoked lay siege on Constantinople with more than 220,000 troops, again Muslims repelled.

AD 719 - Muslim attack Septimania in France

AD 722 - Non Muslims (specifically Christians) begin to fight back, defeat the Muslims at Covandonga and Tours. Charles Martel with 1,500 solders defeats Muslim forces of 60,000 in the battle of Tours saving Europe from invasion and plunder.

AD 846 - Muslims invade Ostia and Rome damaging churches of St Peter and St Paul. Pope Leo IV had to promise a yearly tribute of 25,000 silver coins to the invaders.

AD 849 - Again Muslims attack Rome; a powerful storm (divine help?) and an alliance of Christian forces destroy the Muslim ships

AD 850 -851 - A major turning point in conquered lands starts when Christians led by Priest Perfectus begin civil disobedience to their Muslim rulers. Many are martyred (ie executed by the rulers and NOT killing themselves and others)

AD 880 & 886 - Due to incessant raids by Muslims on his kingdom, Emperor Louis personally travels from Germany to southern Italy to oversee efforts at halting Muslim invasion. Emperor Basil of Byzantine does the same in his kingdom.

AD 902 - Muslims capture the whole of Sicily

AD 911 - Muslim invaders slice France and Italy in half cutting links between the two nations

AD 916 - Greek, German and Italian leaders form an alliance to confront the Muslim incessant harassment of their people

AD 1009 - Muslim leader Al-Hakim Amr Allah order all Christian buildings in Jerusalem to be destroyed. False rumor spreads in Europe that the Jews were responsible for instigating the destruction of the buildings in Jerusalem. This was to lead to reprisal against the Jews at some point in the Crusades that was to come.

AD 1012 - Muslim leader Al-Hakim bi Amr Allah orders the destruction of all Christian and Jewish houses of worship in the land he controls

AD 1070 - Christian pilgrims began returning to Europe with information of destruction of holy places,persecution and oppression by Muslims

AD 1070 - Brother Gerard begins Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. John (Knights Hospitaller) as a force for the protection of Christian pilgrims from Muslim attacks

AD 1088 - Pope Urban II is elected Pope

AD 1095 - Pope Urban II receives ambassadors from the Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos, the Byzantine emperor, asking for aid from the west against the Seljuq Turks, who had overran nearly all of Asia Minor and sieges that has brought his cities to their knees.

In November 27, 1095 Pope Urban makes a passionate appeal for Christendom to rise and assist its brethren in the east. In his speech he acknowledges that due to the invasion none of the Christian empires was now safe for locals, travelers and ordinary folks.

AD1096 - [size=15pt]The crusades begins as a response[/size]

I hope that this information satiates the curious. I hope that we now recognized whose hands were forced to react, and to what threat.



Happy Sallah fellow Muslim compatriots and best wishes for the future.