[quote author=Ken4Christ]frosbel, you did not comment on the scripture that says that Jesus soul was not left in hell. How did his soul got to hell if man is completely unconscious after death in the realm of the spirit?
Hell is Hades or Sheol which is the same thing as the grave.
When a MAN dies , he dies 100% otherwise death becomes a laugh.
God told Adam, " In the day you eat of this fruit , You shall die," , he did not say your body will die and your spirit or soul will be floating somewhere.
You are unknowingly propagating Greek Myth which infiltrated the early church , and was one of the reasons why the apostles warned the believers to be on guard.
“For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:25-31)
And truly Jesus did not see corruption, he was raised to life on the third day.
It is very dishonest, and this is not directed at you , to suggest that a MAN is dead yet alive , when the bible calls DEATH , total DEADNESS.
To form such an important theology on one scripture in the entire bible , which was really just a parable , is not rightly diving the word of truth, it is rushing to a rash judgement without the facts.
Just because something has been parroted a doctrine for centuries does not make it true, after all the church has been in some degree of apostasy over 2000 years, hence the bible talking about a falling away, a falling away from sound doctrine from real truth.
You also did not answer the question- how did Jesus took the keys of hell and death if his soul did not go to hell? Before I continue to enlighten you, I want to give you the basis for correct scripture interpretation
Jesus Christ has the Keys to the Grave which is called Sheol in the new testament and Hades in the Old.
All those who are DEAD in their graves will be called out of their graves ( Jesus unlocking their graves ) and granting them eternal life ( to free from the pangs of death ). That is simply what this means.
"But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him." - Acts 2:24
Reading the above verse , two things to note :
1. Jesus died 100% 2. He was released from the agony of death by the Spirit of GOD.
There is nothing in this scripture to suggest what happened after Jesus died, be careful not to add to the word of GOD.
In the same way, Jesus will free all his followers from the hold of death which is in the grave , hence the phrase, he has the keys of hell ( hades ) and death.
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." - John 6:40
This PAGAN Myth of MAN having 3 distinct parts is FALSE and a LIE , it has nothing to do with the bible. Tradition is a real blinder and if people will throw away their man made creeds, dogmas and tradition to read the bible sincerely the truth will be revealed to them. Our problem, especially in Nigeria, is that our so called MOG have programmed us to be almost totally incapable of applying our own independent thought and analysis of scripture.
We take what they say regarding scripture as infallible almost like to catholic do with their pope.
honourhim: @ken4christ, Thanks for this beautiful exposition you made and may God bless you. The way Frosbel is busy gathering scriptures here and there to drive his point, obviously tells me he is just wrong. This exactly is the way pastors who deceive the congregation into parting with their hard earned money go gathering bible quotations anyhow just to convince us to give. One thing I cannot do is to joke with the message of my eternal destiny and as such I can't believe frosbel. Those who likes sweet messages can believe for all I care. What shall it profit me to believe him only to see when I die that his message is false. How then do I get chance to come back to life and change the false believe. And I lose my soul to hell just like that? God forbid.
If you have a problem with people quoting scripture which refutes false doctrine, you need a reality check.
@frosbel, Your answer to ken4christ does not hold water at all. It still sounds like those desperate attempts you pastors make to deceive us. See the way he addressed all your issues. And when someone is dismantling your points you people will quickly bring in pagan myth accusation. Una dey try. As for your reply to me, you just said nothing meaningful than the same desperate attempt.
I am simply a 'small fry' who has recently decided to examine the scriptures for MYSELF not according to Pastor A or Pastor B or any particular church's doctrine.
frosbel, you did not comment on the scripture that says that Jesus soul was not left in hell. How did his soul got to hell if man is completely unconscious after death in the realm of the spirit? “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:25-31)
You also did not answer the question- how did Jesus took the keys of hell and death if his soul did not go to hell? Before I continue to enlighten you, I want to give you the basis for correct scripture interpretation
1. Not everything in the Bible is truth but everything is truly stated. Yes, the scripture says the Bible is inspired by God but the entire content is not all God’s word. I will give you examples. a. The devil spoke and his words were recorded. The fact that it is in the Bible does not convert his words to God’s word b. The donkey also spoke. Is the donkey’s word the word of God because it is in the Bible? c. Some men spoke their minds. Are those words also the words of God? For instance Job during his afflictions said so many things that are not in consonant with God’s character. “And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. (Job 1:21) Job implies in this verse that both good and evil comes from God. So if someone dies, it is the Lord that is responsible. This is why so many religious leaders till date use this verse to console themselves during death. Job was only speaking his mind and what he said is not God’s word. When Jesus came he let us know that the devil is the one responsible for all evil – “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10). Even James confirms that only good things comes from God. “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17).
So, you see why you cannot just use any scripture you see to buttress your point. Even God himself rebuked Job for his wrong comments - Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? (Job 38:1-2). The Lord told Job here that most of the things he said are words without knowledge. Even David that wrote most of the psalms did not know it all. They all had limited knowledge. So all he said cannot be used authoritatively. The only authority you can rely on is the authority of Jesus and his Apostles. Jesus came and gave us better understanding on spiritual matters. So if you will continue to use any scripture to argue your case, I am not ready to debate with you because we will never agree. Try and focus more on the New Testament. It is the new light that God has given to us. Having said that, I will now begin to throw more light on the issues I raised earlier on.
1. You said the torment will not be forever. Your proof is not based on scripture but on reasoning. The word says there will be no more night in the new world. Yes that is correct. But it was not referring to the lost world. Those that are thrown into the lake of fire will be in another world. You are not the one to decide how long the Angels will supervise their torment. Besides, there is no time in the spirit world. If you are saying the torment will not be forever, it means those in the lake of fire will come back to God and serve him. You also know the devil will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Are you saying that God will stop tormenting the devil and the devil will be free again to fight against God? “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10).
So, please the word of God is very clear on this. If he says it is forever, then that is it. That is why we urge all to repent now. The Angel of God warned, “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11) The book of revelations warns us not to add or subtract from the prophecy given. “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19). Subtracting from it can cost you your salvation. Please, you must not will all argument even to the detriment of your salvation
2. You said that the Bible says there is one judgment. I agree but I am only explaining to you the process of the judgment. If the dead does not continue to live after death, why did Jesus promised the thief that he shall be with him in paradise that very day. Was Jesus drunk when he gave that promise? And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43). I know that many Bible scholars have attempted to rephrase what Jesus said as meaning that he was making a promise that day of a future event. You can always twist the scripture to suit your preconceived opinion.
When Paul was about to end his ministry, he told his disciples that he is in the valley of decision. He is trying to chose between staying with them a while or leaving them to be with the Lord. Paul knew when he has passed on from here; he will be with the Lord. “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:23). He did not say it as something that will happen on the resurrection day. He said it as someone that knows that as soon as he dies, he will be with the Lord. Paul won't call it a better option if he was going to wait till resurrection day.
Now Jesus said Abraham saw his days and he his happy. If Abraham is unconscious, how did he see the day of Jesus? “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (John 8:56). I gave a simple illustration. When a police arrest you for a crime, you are detained until you are either proved innocent or guilty. Hell is a place where all those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus gets detained until the judgment day.
3. You said a soul refers to the complete man. I do not know whether you read English in school. I guess you did. It is very wrong to give one single meaning to any word. Haven’t you used dictionary to check out the meanings of words before? If you have, you will notice variance usage and meanings from the same word. Sometimes a word can have up to 7 different usage or meaning, So, what determines the meaning of a word is the context in which the word is used. Yes, there are sevaral scripture were the word soul is used to mean the person as a whole. But it also used in another sense. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23 ).
Paul here talks about our spirit, soul and body. This is what makes the complete man. In another place, he says that it is only the word that can separate the soul from the spirit. That means, they look like the same thing but they are not. “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12 ). Our Lord Jesus also distinguished between body and soul. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28) In this context, the word soul does not refer to the whole being. If it does, Jesus would not make the distinction.
4. You said Jesus did not speak without a parable. So all he said was parables. Even John 3:16 is a parable. Please, let us be honest with ourselves. Read all the parables of Jesus and compared them with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You will see the marked differences. Winning an argument should not make you blind. If you read most of Jesus parables, you will see consistency in the presentation. He usually starts with ‘The Kingdom of heaven is likened unto….in most of his parables. No specific names are mentioned in parables. No one will even need to tell you he was speaking in parables on those occasions. But on the story of the rich man, let’s look at it again.
“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:19-24)
Go and ask any English student. When you say there was a certain rich man, the word certain makes it a definite article and not generic. If he had said, there was a rich man, we would have been tempted to believe it is a parable. Now he went further to say that there was a certain beggar. Another definite article. Even if he had stopped there, it would still convey the fact that he is referring to a particular person. But he went further to give his name. I don’t know what more to say. Jesus is narrating an event that took place several years before that time. The fact that it does not agree with your theology does not mean you can call it whatever you want to call it. Even if it was a parable, you can only make parables with things that are practicable. So, it still conveys the massage that after death, there are two destinations you go to instantly. Heaven or hell.
5. Yes Sodom and Gomorrah does not exist but Jude 7 says the inhabitants are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire currently in hell. “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7). 6. You quoted Eccl 9:5 which reads; “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. This was Solomon talking and not God. Like I said earlier on, not everything in the Bible is God’s word. There are even times Paul will say I and not the Lord in his statement. 7. When Jesus says Lazarus is sleeping, it did not say he was unconscious in the realm of the spirit. He later told his disciples that he meant Lazarus is death. When you sleep, don’t you see yourself in places in dreams. You look exactly the way you are in the physical. Did you carry your physical body along with you? Many a time you will not know it is a dream until you wake up. This is how death is. In the physical, you are lifeless, but you will find yourself somewhere else in the realms of the spirit. Have you ever asked yourself which part of your being was involved in the dream. It certainly is your soul. You can still feel yourself, touch things, interact like in normal life. There is life in the spirit world. Paul said once that his spirit was caught up to the third heaven. He was not too sure if his body was carried along. There are people whose spirit have left their bodies to visit the realm of the spirit and they come back and enter their body again. “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Paul knew it was possible for his spirit to leave his body. Your spirit is the real you. Your body is just a case housing your spirit. Death simply means your spirit has been separated from your body and it leaves on either in hell or in heaven. We use the word soul for unbelievers because their spirit is dead.
I know you will want me to clarify why the Bible says we shall rise on resurrection day. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
If we say that when we die, our spirit goes to heaven, why then does the Bible say that the dead in Christ shall rise first? Those that died in Christ are with him with their spirits and not with their bodies. So, when Jesus comes to take us home, the spirits of those that are dead in Christ will come with him and they will be re united with their physical bodies. Look at the underlined phrase above. ‘Even so them also which sleep in Jesus God WILL BRING WITH HIM. How will God bring them with Jesus if they were not with him? This is the mystery if life. How do you think your dead body will rise without the spirit? It is your spirit that gives your body life.
Whatever disposition you take on this article, if you don’t accept them now, I pray that one day, God will give you an understanding heart.
God bless all the readers and if you have any questions on any subject you can reach me on kenmacaulay@ymail.com. Thank you for the opportunity to share with you the truth of God’s word.
Good job. I thank the Lord for your life that we still have bible believing Christians who have not compromised the truth on this forum. Frosbel and his ilks should be left alone because they have joined themselves to idols like Ephraim.
"Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).
YEAH. BUT I ALSO HAVE TO ADVISE THAT YOU DON'T ALSO FOLLOW CHURCH TRADITIONS STRICTLY. NOT EVERY PRACTICE IN DEEPER LIFE IS CORRECT, SAME WITH MY CHURCH APOSTOLIC FAITH. DEVELOP AN OPEN MIND WHEN YOU ARE HERE AND LEARN, AFTER LEARNING SUBJECT IT TO THE APPROVAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND IF ITS RIGHT BEGIN TO RE-ORIENTATE YOUR MEMBERS. NO CHURCH IS PERFECT. WE KEEP LEARNING AND GROWING. DE-COLONIZE YOUR MIND OF DEEPER LIFE COLONIZATION. ITS ALL ABOUT JESUS AND NOT CHURCH. THANKS MY BROTHER.
What has the doctrine of hell got to do with tradition? And why do you have to type in uppercases, what are you angry about?
With deep interest,I read through all the comments you all made so far on hell. frosbel is right.I will give my reasons.
The scripture talks about eternal torment. Here are some of them,
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11) This passage refers to the era of the anti Christ and the punishment that will follow those who worship the image of the beat. Notice it says, they shall have no rest day nor night.
When one dies, there is an instant judgment. Those who reject the gospel or Christians that not live right will be held in the custody of hell until the final judgment day. It is like when you arrest someone, until he is taken to court, he is kept in detention. But after he is convicted, he will be thrown into cell to serve his punishment. Hell is a place of detention for offenders.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. No specific names are mentioned in parables. The fact that the rich man's name was not mentioned does not make it a parable. Jesus deliberately withheld his name. Two specific character where mentioned- Lazarus and Abraham. Tell me, name any parable that Jesus gave that he called specific name. There is none. This one is not a parable. Jesus was recalling an incident that happened years before now by the Spirit of God. The rich man died and lifted up his eyes in hell. But Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom. If this does not convince you, I will give you another proof.
When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, the book of Jude revealed to us that they are currently suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7). Note the word suffering is used in present continuous term.
When man dies, his body is buried in the grave but his soul goes to hell if he doesn't know Jesus. His spirit go to heaven if he is born again the very day he dies. The soul of a man has complete features as the physical body. Our physical body is just like a house. The very essence of life comes from the soul or the spirit. So, death is not a cessation of existence. Your soul is even more sensitive without the body. How do you feel when you are without a clothing? Your body becomes more sensitive to weather conditions.
How do you think Jesus won his victory? The victory was not won on the cross. Jesus went to hell during the three days his body was in the grave. It was in hell he defeated the devil and released Abraham and all the Old Testament Saints that where in his bosom. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. {let me: or, I may} Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Acts 2:25-32)
Jesus said in Revelation 1:17-18; "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. How did you think Jesus got the key of hell?
When you die, you are still fully yourself as you were in your earthly body. The only difference is that you cannot function on the physical world. But in the spirit world, you look exactly the same.
In the final judgment day, hell will release those detained there for judgment. "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Revelation 20:13)
I have many more proofs but I will stop here to know if the explanation I gave is clearly understood. Otherwise, I will give more in my subsequent post. I am well acquainted with virtually all the scriptures that refers directly or indirectly with eternal judgment.
If you want to have revelation about any subject, dwell more on the New Testament. The Old Testament in most cases hveE limited revelation on certain subjects. That was why Paul calls it. 'types and shadows' of the new. Jesus came to give us clearer picture on many subjects. Try and read all that Jesus taught about hell in the gospels. You will know that he is talking about a literal place of punishment. He calls the lake of fire, furnace of fire.
May God give us the grace to overcome every temptation that will cause us to go there. It is a most terrible place to be.
Can you please explain where exactly you think frosbel is right as highlighted above?
Read the bible , not through Mr.Phd or Mr.Deeper life , but through an honest interpretation of scripture.
Your 'cult' cannot be right on all matters
Ken4Christ answered all your objections but your obstinate mind would not or could not comprehend it. Here are more Scriptural passages to back up what our beloved brother lectured you with and also for those who are getting confused by your lies. As for you it is better to let you be unrighteous still.
"I am He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death"
(Rev. 1:18) The Evidence Bible.
There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture:
Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6)
Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)
Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)
There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.
However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to:
"go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched"
(Mark 9:43–48 ).
The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:
"Shame and everlasting contempt"
(Daniel 12:2)
"Everlasting punishment"
(Mathew 25:46)
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth"
(Matthew 24:51)
"Fire unquenchable"
(Luke 3:17)
"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish"
(Romans 2:8,9)
"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"
(2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever"
(Jude 7,13)
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner:
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
As for frosbel let me leave you with this verse:
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still"
I am simply a 'small fry' who has recently decided to examine the scriptures for MYSELF not according to Pastor A or Pastor B or any particular church's doctrine.
.
I like your humility though but you cannot also claim that your own research outcome is very correct. I ll rather believe the outcome of the studies of the churches you are condemning because I believe they ll have forums where they delibrate on biblical issues with everyone making input than the outcome of your one man study which may at one time or the other be propelled by your whims and caprices. If soul and body are the same how come Acts 2:31 seperated them? Jesus too seperated them when he said do not fear him(man) who destroys only the body but fear him(God) who can destroy both soul and body in hell? How come you use the biblical portion that says that there will be no night in the new heaven and the new earth to cancel the portions that says that the angels will watch satan and his cohorts in the lake of fire? Did the bible say that the lake of fire will be in the same new heaven and the new earth. Each of those places and the events that will take place in them shows that of different environment so why do u talk as is lake of fire is just like a large container in the new earth where whatever that is happening in the new earth prevails there too. Or did the bible tell you that the lake of fire will be in this earth so that when God shall wipe out the heaven and earth to create a new one then the lake of fire is wiped out? Again how come you people are placing a limit on the word "forever" when it actually has no limit? These are what I call desperate attempts. Hope u know am not arguing with you. We are just rubbing minds on the scriptures so keep it going that way but also bear in mind that am a learner.
honourhim: @ken4christ, Thanks for this beautiful exposition you made and may God bless you. The way Frosbel is busy gathering scriptures here and there to drive his point, obviously tells me he is just wrong. This exactly is the way pastors who deceive the congregation into parting with their hard earned money go gathering bible quotations anyhow just to convince us to give. One thing I cannot do is to joke with the message of my eternal destiny and as such I can't believe frosbel. Those who likes sweet messages can believe for all I care. What shall it profit me to believe him only to see when I die that his message is false. How then do I get chance to come back to life and change the false believe. And I lose my soul to hell just like that? God forbid.
chinedumo: Frosbel follows the path of jehovah's witness on this.
Hence the disbelief in eternal torments is also tradition and feel good' emotionalizm
Am just seeing feel good emotionalizm in his teaching. Never seen a convincing presentation inspite of the numerous quotations that laced his defence/teaching. For now his stand here is false, false and false until otherwise proven.
Very real my brother. Forget about the scripture quoting jamboree that they are engaging in just to satisfy their feel-good emotion that eternal punishment is not in the bible. Running from old testament to new testament is not what makes a teaching biblical and correct. Thank God for Ken4Christ. I believe God brought him here to set these biblixal quotations in the right perspective. Now this is another manifestation of God's love for us whereby he will not allow anybody here to perish out of ignorance. If frosbel is sincere in his bible research he should take a second look at his stand on this issue because ken4Christ threw in more light here. Thanks.
Very real my brother. Forget about the scripture quoting jamboree
Indeed, let us forget about the scripture quoting for it is not a godly thing to do
Do you know this is how the catholic church stopped people from reading the bible for themselves , so as to hold them in bondage to false doctrine, their organisation and indeed their POPE.
Scripture validating scripture is rightly dividing the word of GOD , not to do so is to be left in a brain washed or ignorant state.
MOG ( small Popes ) and their churches , with conflicting creeds and dogmas , are not and never will be my yard stick for the measurement of truth.
frosbel, I will not argue with you on this issue again after this post since you have refused to learn. I thank God there are people that understands my expositions on the subject. You are just joking with your life. You think you know but you are very ignorant.
The word hell is translated from the Hebrew word Sheol in the Old Testament 31 times. It is an unseen world of torment and is not the same as physical grave. If you try to substitute the word grave for hell in the verses you find them, it will certainly not make sense. Why Hell (Sheol) cannot be grave 1. The Bible talks about souls been cast into hell (sheol) but bodies are buried in graves I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. (Ezekiel 31:16)
2. Hell (Sheol) is never located on the earth’s surface. Grave is located on the earth’s surface.
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. (Isaiah 14:9) 3. There is not a single scripture where man was quoted as putting anyone into Hell (Sheol). But man buries people in grave. God alone puts people in Hell 4. There is nowhere man is said to have dug hell (Sheol). But man digs grave 5. Hell is a place of sorrows. There is no activity going on in the grave The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me (Psalms 18:5 ) 6. Hell is a place of fire. There is no fire in the grave. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deuteronomy 32:22) 7. Hell is a place only the wicked goes. Everyone that dies is buried in the physical grave. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17) 8. Hell is a place that can be avoided. Everyone that dies cannot avoid the grave. Your body must be buried in the grave. The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. (Proverbs 15:24) 9. Men cry for pain in hell. No one cries in the grave. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jonah 2:2) 10. Hell is a place of full consciousness where conversation takes place. There is no consciousness in the grave. The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. (Ezekiel 32:21)
I can go on and on. I deliberately did not use most of the familiar scriptures that is point clear in the New Testament. You refute the story of the rich man and Lazarus and call it parable. Please also tell us that all the scriptures above are parables. If after all this infallible proof, you still want to argue, I will strongly recommend you to visit a psychiatrist. It certainly is another degree of madness. I do not mean to insult you but anyone that denies the teachings of Jesus is working with the devil. Paul even placed a curse on anyone that teaches or preaches anything other than that which they have taught. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)
Any translation that puts grave for hell is in error. They are not the same.
My friends, please don’t mind frosbel and all who share his views. This are the last days. There will certainly be false prophets and teachers. If he is honest, let him comment on every single contrast I made between hell and grave.
May God deliver his children from false Teachers and Prophets
Ken4Christ: frosbel, I will not argue with you on this issue again after this post since you have refused to learn. I thank God there are people that understands my expositions on the subject. You are just joking with your life. You think you know but you are very ignorant.
The word hell is translated from the Hebrew word Sheol in the Old Testament 31 times. It is an unseen world of torment and is not the same as physical grave. If you try to substitute the word grave for hell in the verses you find them, it will certainly not make sense. Why Hell (Sheol) cannot be grave 1. The Bible talks about souls been cast into hell (sheol) but bodies are buried in graves I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. (Ezekiel 31:16)
2. Hell (Sheol) is never located on the earth’s surface. Grave is located on the earth’s surface.
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. (Isaiah 14:9) 3. There is not a single scripture where man was quoted as putting anyone into Hell (Sheol). But man buries people in grave. God alone puts people in Hell 4. There is nowhere man is said to have dug hell (Sheol). But man digs grave 5. Hell is a place of sorrows. There is no activity going on in the grave The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me (Psalms 18:5 ) 6. Hell is a place of fire. There is no fire in the grave. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deuteronomy 32:22) 7. Hell is a place only the wicked goes. Everyone that dies is buried in the physical grave. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17) 8. Hell is a place that can be avoided. Everyone that dies cannot avoid the grave. Your body must be buried in the grave. The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. (Proverbs 15:24) 9. Men cry for pain in hell. No one cries in the grave. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jonah 2:2) 10. Hell is a place of full consciousness where conversation takes place. There is no consciousness in the grave. The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. (Ezekiel 32:21)
I can go on and on. I deliberately did not use most of the familiar scriptures that is point clear in the New Testament. You refute the story of the rich man and Lazarus and call it parable. Please also tell us that all the scriptures above are parables. If after all this infallible proof, you still want to argue, I will strongly recommend you to visit a psychiatrist. It certainly is another degree of madness. I do not mean to insult you but anyone that denies the teachings of Jesus is working with the devil. Paul even placed a curse on anyone that teaches or preaches anything other than that which they have taught. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)
Any translation that puts grave for hell is in error. They are not the same.
My friends, please don’t mind frosbel and all who share his views. This are the last days. There will certainly be false prophets and teachers. If he is honest, let him comment on every single contrast I made between hell and grave.
May God deliver his children from false Teachers and Prophets
[quote author=Ken4Christ]frosbel, I will not argue with you on this issue again after this post since you have refused to learn. I thank God there are people that understands my expositions on the subject. You are just joking with your life. You think you know but you are very ignorant.
I do not agree with your exposition on this topic and no, I am not joking with my life
The word hell is translated from the Hebrew word Sheol in the Old Testament 31 times. It is an unseen world of torment and is not the same as physical grave. If you try to substitute the word grave for hell in the verses you find them, it will certainly not make sense.
If we take your meaning of Sheol, we will then conclude that people like David, Job, Jacob , Solomon etc are all in HELL burning.
Jacob: "All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him." - Genesis 37:35
" I will ransom them from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave (sheol) is your destruction?" - Hosea 13:14
Job: “But mortals die, and are laid low; humans expire and where are they? (11) As waters fail from a lake, and a river wastes away and dries up, (12) so mortals lie down and do not rise again; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake or be aroused out of their sleep. (13) Oh that you (God) would hide me in sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath is past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! (14) If mortals die, will they live again? All of the days of my service I would wait until my release should come. (15) You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the works of your hands.” - JOB 14:10-15
Solomon: "Whatever your hands find to do, do with all your strength, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going" - Ecclesiastes 9:10
Hezekiah: "The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness: , I said, "Must I leave in the prime of my life? Must I be consigned to the control of Sheol? Bitter are my years!" - Isaiah 38:9-10
You see the Jews knew quite well what Sheol meant , both the wicked and good died and went to Sheol.
The only difference being that the good have a hope of resurrection unto life.
Those who do not believe in the doctrine of eternal torment are often accused of being 'liberals', or 'heretics'. In our day, evangelical and fundamental theology defends the doctrine of eternal torment as part of the 'faith once delivered to the saints'.
Those who reject this teaching are often accused of 'twisting the scriptures'. The following questions are designed to show the utter fallacy of the contention that eternal torment is a scriptural doctrine. It is those who believe in eternal torment who must twist the scriptures, all the while accusing others of doing the same. We ask those who believe eternal torment to answer the following questions honestly and scripturally!
I. On what scriptural authority is the Greek word Gehenna, literally 'the valley of the sons of Hinnom' and the city garbage dump in the time of Christ, translated as 'hell'?
II. Are those you teach ever made aware of the fact that Gehenna is a proper noun and the title of a literal place which exists on earth to this day?
III. On the basis of what you believe concerning Gehenna, could you please explain Jesus' words in Matthew 5:22; that saying 'Raca' made one accountable to the council, but saying 'Thou fool' was punishable by torment in flames for all eternity? Why the drastic difference in punishment?
IV. Could you please explain why none of the twelve New Testament references to Gehenna mention physical torment of any kind? If Gehenna is the word which describes the place of eternal physical torment, isn't this a bit odd?
V. Do those who teach the doctrine of eternal torment make clear to their hearers that they really believe in two hells; one temporary (Hades) and one permanent (Gehenna)?
VI. When you teach the doctrine of eternal torment, are you honest in instructing your hearers that Hades and Gehenna are two very different things although both are translated as 'hell' in the King James Bible?
VII. Are you willing to admit that even if 'The rich man and Lazarus' (Luke 16) is not a parable, it still has no bearing on the doctrine of eternal torment? The Rich man clearly went to Hades which you teach is not the final abode of the wicked but a temporary condition. How is it that this temporary condition is preached as if it is an eternal one? Is this honest? Hades must be emptied so the dead may be judged (Rev 20). Are these facts made clear to your hearers when you attempt to use Luke 16 to teach the doctrine of eternal torment?
VIII. When you quote Jesus' words that 'the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched' (Mark 9) in reference to hell, do you also make clear that Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24, where in that passage the fire and worms feed on dead bodies and not immortal souls for all eternity?
IX. If you insist that Mark 9 is referring to the torment of souls by 'fire' and 'worms' for all eternity, then can you please explain also how fire and worms torment a dead body in Isaiah 66:24? If you insist that the dead bodies of Isaiah 66:24 are also immortal souls then by what rule of interpretation is this determined or even allowable?
X. Scripturally speaking, is an 'unquenchable fire' one that never goes out? (Jer 7:20, 17:27, Ezek 20:47-48) When you preach that Hell is an 'unquenchable fire' do you also quote these verses to show the Biblical use of this phrase? Aren't we supposed to let the Bible define its own language?
XI. Please explain why 'everlasting punishment' (Matt 25:46) must refer to eternal torment? Please explain why eternal death could not also be an 'everlasting punishment'?
XII. Please explain on what basis you use the phrase 'in the day of judgment' (Matt10:14-15, 11:21-22, 11:23-24; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:10-12, 10:13-14) to teach that there are degrees of punishment in Hell? In what way does 'in the day of judgment' mean 'in hell'?
XIII. According to your logic on the above question, why then do you teach in Matthew 12:36 that 'in the day of Judgment' should be taken literally instead of meaning 'in hell'?
XIV. If the verses listed above concerning the day of judgment mean what they say ( 'IN the day of judgment' ), then do they have any bearing at all on events which follow the judgment?
XV If Hell is torment for all eternity, then please explain how Jesus' reference to 'many stripes' and 'few stripes' (Luke 12:46-48) teaches degrees of punishment. Do 'many' and 'few' have any meaning at all in eternity? Why didn't Jesus use the terms 'less severe stripes' and 'more severe stripes' if this is what he had meant?
XVI. In Revelation 14:10-11, does the warning 'and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name' apply to mankind in general or to a specific class of people ('if any man worship the beast and his image')? When you use this verse in support of eternal torment, do you make clear that the warning is directed toward a specific group of people at a specific time?
XVII. Does Revelation 14:10-11 say that the torment of these goes on forever, or that the 'smoke' of this torment arises forever? Wouldn't there be a difference? If not, why?
XVIII. Does the smoke from the destruction of mystical, symbolical Babylon (Rev 19:3) literally rise up forever and ever also?
XIX. The language in Revelation 14 is taken from the description of the destruction of Edom (Idumea) in Isaiah 34:10 where the smoke is also to arise 'forever'. In that passage it is the land which burns with fire and brimstone, and it is the burning of the land which 'shall not be quenched' and from which the smoke would arise 'forever and ever'. Why is it that when this language is quoted in Revelation 14, all these passages are applied to 'hell' when the passage and language they are taken from clearly refers to an earthly condition and earthly judgments?
XX. If the warning of Revelation 14:10-11 is a reference to torment in the 'Lake of Fire' then why in Revelation 19:20-21 when the lake of fire appears are those who were thus warned not cast there but simply killed?
XXI. If the warning of Revelation 14:10-11 is a reference to torment in the 'Lake of Fire' then why, according to popular evangelical theology, is the execution of this punishment separated from the warning contextually by six chapters and chronologically by over 1000 years?
XXII. In reference to the 'lake of fire', why is it that what is said of the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet, 'shall be tormented day and night forever and ever', is not said of mankind in general? Are you careful to not apply this language where the Bible does not?
XXIII. Throughout the book of Revelation symbols are explained in a consistent manner; fine linen IS the righteousness of the saints, the candlesticks ARE the churches, the ten horns ARE ten kings. Why is it that when we are told 'the lake of fire IS the second death' this logic is reversed to mean 'the second death IS the lake of fire'?
XXIV. How do you cast death and Hades literally into a literal lake of fire? (Rev 20:14) If this is symbolical then why is the next verse 'and whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire' not also symbolical?
XXV. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that Hell is a lake of fire?
XXVI. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that Jesus died to save mankind from hell?
XXVII. Could you please provide one verse of scripture which states that 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' takes place in hell?
XXVIII. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' is an eternal condition for the unsaved?
XXIX. Can you please provide one verse of scripture which states that there are degrees of punishment in hell?
X.XX. If you cannot provide scripture for the five previous questions are you willing to stop preaching these things as though you're quoting the Bible directly? Are you at least willing to admit that these are based only upon your own assumptions and not on the Word of God?
Now u quoted me wrongly by cutting out part of my sentence to nail me why leaving the concluding word that completes the statement. I said let us forget about the bible quoting jamboree. Why did u leave out the word jamboree? Friend you see the same thing you do with the scripture is what u ve done with my sentence and it is this cut and join scripture quoting that you do that am against. The Ken4Christ that I supported and others, didn't they quote scriptures. Friend, its better u don't quote scriptures at all for me than quote it and deceive me. Get the gist sir.
There are many on this forum who get angry when you quote too many scriptures.
And why would you be deceived when I quote scripture, wow , you should be able to test the spirits yourself. If you think it is false, that's your opinion.
"Eternal torment of the wicked is the greatest lie in the history of Christianity.
Basically, those who preach that the wicked will not die, but rather suffer eternally, do the same as the devil did in Eden, and call God a liar. Perhaps this has something to do with the road to everlasting life being narrow? Hundreds of millions of Christians repeat this slander against the Father."
Matt 7:23 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Ken4Christ: frosbel, you did not comment on the scripture that says that Jesus soul was not left in hell. How did his soul got to hell if man is completely unconscious after death in the realm of the spirit? “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:25-31)
You also did not answer the question- how did Jesus took the keys of hell and death if his soul did not go to hell? Before I continue to enlighten you, I want to give you the basis for correct scripture interpretation
1. Not everything in the Bible is truth but everything is truly stated. Yes, the scripture says the Bible is inspired by God but the entire content is not all God’s word. I will give you examples. a. The devil spoke and his words were recorded. The fact that it is in the Bible does not convert his words to God’s word b. The donkey also spoke. Is the donkey’s word the word of God because it is in the Bible? c. Some men spoke their minds. Are those words also the words of God? For instance Job during his afflictions said so many things that are not in consonant with God’s character. “And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. (Job 1:21) Job implies in this verse that both good and evil comes from God. So if someone dies, it is the Lord that is responsible. This is why so many religious leaders till date use this verse to console themselves during death. Job was only speaking his mind and what he said is not God’s word. When Jesus came he let us know that the devil is the one responsible for all evil – “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10). Even James confirms that only good things comes from God. “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17).
So, you see why you cannot just use any scripture you see to buttress your point. Even God himself rebuked Job for his wrong comments - Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? (Job 38:1-2). The Lord told Job here that most of the things he said are words without knowledge. Even David that wrote most of the psalms did not know it all. They all had limited knowledge. So all he said cannot be used authoritatively. The only authority you can rely on is the authority of Jesus and his Apostles. Jesus came and gave us better understanding on spiritual matters. So if you will continue to use any scripture to argue your case, I am not ready to debate with you because we will never agree. Try and focus more on the New Testament. It is the new light that God has given to us. Having said that, I will now begin to throw more light on the issues I raised earlier on.
1. You said the torment will not be forever. Your proof is not based on scripture but on reasoning. The word says there will be no more night in the new world. Yes that is correct. But it was not referring to the lost world. Those that are thrown into the lake of fire will be in another world. You are not the one to decide how long the Angels will supervise their torment. Besides, there is no time in the spirit world. If you are saying the torment will not be forever, it means those in the lake of fire will come back to God and serve him. You also know the devil will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Are you saying that God will stop tormenting the devil and the devil will be free again to fight against God? “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10).
So, please the word of God is very clear on this. If he says it is forever, then that is it. That is why we urge all to repent now. The Angel of God warned, “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11) The book of revelations warns us not to add or subtract from the prophecy given. “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19). Subtracting from it can cost you your salvation. Please, you must not will all argument even to the detriment of your salvation
2. You said that the Bible says there is one judgment. I agree but I am only explaining to you the process of the judgment. If the dead does not continue to live after death, why did Jesus promised the thief that he shall be with him in paradise that very day. Was Jesus drunk when he gave that promise? And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43). I know that many Bible scholars have attempted to rephrase what Jesus said as meaning that he was making a promise that day of a future event. You can always twist the scripture to suit your preconceived opinion.
When Paul was about to end his ministry, he told his disciples that he is in the valley of decision. He is trying to chose between staying with them a while or leaving them to be with the Lord. Paul knew when he has passed on from here; he will be with the Lord. “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:23). He did not say it as something that will happen on the resurrection day. He said it as someone that knows that as soon as he dies, he will be with the Lord. Paul won't call it a better option if he was going to wait till resurrection day.
Now Jesus said Abraham saw his days and he his happy. If Abraham is unconscious, how did he see the day of Jesus? “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (John 8:56). I gave a simple illustration. When a police arrest you for a crime, you are detained until you are either proved innocent or guilty. Hell is a place where all those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus gets detained until the judgment day.
3. You said a soul refers to the complete man. I do not know whether you read English in school. I guess you did. It is very wrong to give one single meaning to any word. Haven’t you used dictionary to check out the meanings of words before? If you have, you will notice variance usage and meanings from the same word. Sometimes a word can have up to 7 different usage or meaning, So, what determines the meaning of a word is the context in which the word is used. Yes, there are sevaral scripture were the word soul is used to mean the person as a whole. But it also used in another sense. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23 ).
Paul here talks about our spirit, soul and body. This is what makes the complete man. In another place, he says that it is only the word that can separate the soul from the spirit. That means, they look like the same thing but they are not. “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12 ). Our Lord Jesus also distinguished between body and soul. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28) In this context, the word soul does not refer to the whole being. If it does, Jesus would not make the distinction.
4. You said Jesus did not speak without a parable. So all he said was parables. Even John 3:16 is a parable. Please, let us be honest with ourselves. Read all the parables of Jesus and compared them with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You will see the marked differences. Winning an argument should not make you blind. If you read most of Jesus parables, you will see consistency in the presentation. He usually starts with ‘The Kingdom of heaven is likened unto….in most of his parables. No specific names are mentioned in parables. No one will even need to tell you he was speaking in parables on those occasions. But on the story of the rich man, let’s look at it again.
“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:19-24)
Go and ask any English student. When you say there was a certain rich man, the word certain makes it a definite article and not generic. If he had said, there was a rich man, we would have been tempted to believe it is a parable. Now he went further to say that there was a certain beggar. Another definite article. Even if he had stopped there, it would still convey the fact that he is referring to a particular person. But he went further to give his name. I don’t know what more to say. Jesus is narrating an event that took place several years before that time. The fact that it does not agree with your theology does not mean you can call it whatever you want to call it. Even if it was a parable, you can only make parables with things that are practicable. So, it still conveys the massage that after death, there are two destinations you go to instantly. Heaven or hell.
5. Yes Sodom and Gomorrah does not exist but Jude 7 says the inhabitants are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire currently in hell. “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7). 6. You quoted Eccl 9:5 which reads; “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. This was Solomon talking and not God. Like I said earlier on, not everything in the Bible is God’s word. There are even times Paul will say I and not the Lord in his statement. 7. When Jesus says Lazarus is sleeping, it did not say he was unconscious in the realm of the spirit. He later told his disciples that he meant Lazarus is death. When you sleep, don’t you see yourself in places in dreams. You look exactly the way you are in the physical. Did you carry your physical body along with you? Many a time you will not know it is a dream until you wake up. This is how death is. In the physical, you are lifeless, but you will find yourself somewhere else in the realms of the spirit. Have you ever asked yourself which part of your being was involved in the dream. It certainly is your soul. You can still feel yourself, touch things, interact like in normal life. There is life in the spirit world. Paul said once that his spirit was caught up to the third heaven. He was not too sure if his body was carried along. There are people whose spirit have left their bodies to visit the realm of the spirit and they come back and enter their body again. “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Paul knew it was possible for his spirit to leave his body. Your spirit is the real you. Your body is just a case housing your spirit. Death simply means your spirit has been separated from your body and it leaves on either in hell or in heaven. We use the word soul for unbelievers because their spirit is dead.
I know you will want me to clarify why the Bible says we shall rise on resurrection day. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
If we say that when we die, our spirit goes to heaven, why then does the Bible say that the dead in Christ shall rise first? Those that died in Christ are with him with their spirits and not with their bodies. So, when Jesus comes to take us home, the spirits of those that are dead in Christ will come with him and they will be re united with their physical bodies. Look at the underlined phrase above. ‘Even so them also which sleep in Jesus God WILL BRING WITH HIM. How will God bring them with Jesus if they were not with him? This is the mystery if life. How do you think your dead body will rise without the spirit? It is your spirit that gives your body life.
Whatever disposition you take on this article, if you don’t accept them now, I pray that one day, God will give you an understanding heart.
God bless all the readers and if you have any questions on any subject you can reach me on kenmacaulay@ymail.com. Thank you for the opportunity to share with you the truth of God’s word.
If you believe in a GOD who sends people to an eternal torment, then he is no better than Hitler or Stalin or maybe worse.
I wonder what kind of GOD you people serve.
The Bible says his anger lasts but for a moment and his mercy endures forever more, while you guys twist this to mean an anger that will last forever , never to be abated, how sick can this doctrine of demons get.
"For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning." - Psalms 30;5
First off, MAN is not a spirit, this is a fundamental and stubborn flaw.
Secondly , the soul that sins shall die or perish etc.
Lastly, death itself will be destroyed in the lake of fire and there will be no more death , forever.
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." - Revelation 20:14
"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." - 1 Corinthians 15:54
" he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people's disgrace from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. " - Isaiah 25:8
You guys also make God out to be a Liar because he said , the soul that sins shall die while your guys says he will live forever, albeit in a torture chamber.
How can death be destroyed and people still dying.
Beloved, use your brains and stop turning people away from the gospel with falsehoods.
Ahhhhh...my brother, you are mixing up things here. He told you that sheol means hell and not grave as you want people to believe and which you have also been using to promote this falsehood. He went ahead to support his statement with bible portions. Infact the portions you quoted clearly supports what he said that it is human that put people in the grave while God puts in hell. You now came and said that sheol is grave, asking him to throw away his KJV. You are not serious. Is it not you that is sampling bibles that should be asked to look for a better one and make use of it? The truth is that ken4christ has exposed the falsehood in your teaching concerning eternal destiny. Whether you accept it or not is your business. The good thing is that others who have open mind and are not looking for sweet-tongued messages will reject yours and face the reality of the bible. Thank God for ken4christ. I suggest that you re examine your teachings. If you fail to see it that way na you sabi.
Ahhhhh...my brother, you are mixing up things here. He told you that sheol means hell and not grave as you want people to believe and which you have also been using to promote this falsehood. He went ahead to support his statement with bible portions. Infact the portions you quoted clearly supports what he said that it is human that put people in the grave while God puts in hell. You now came and said that sheol is grave, asking him to throw away his KJV. You are not serious. Is it not you that is sampling bibles that should be asked to look for a better one and make use of it? The truth is that ken4christ has exposed the falsehood in your teaching concerning eternal destiny. Whether you accept it or not is your business. The good thing is that others who have open mind and are not looking for sweet-tongued messages will reject yours and face the reality of the bible. Thank God for ken4christ. I suggest that you re examine your teachings. If you fail to see it that way na you sabi.
I also refuted his definition of Sheol, you must have missed it.
Sheol and Hades ( Hebrew and Greek ) are synonymous terms for the grave or place of the departed.
Some examples of the condition of those in this place , contrary to popular opinion.
ECCLESIASTES 9:10 (NRSV) Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in sheol, to which you are going.
ECCLESIASTES 9:5 (NRSV) The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.
PSALM 146:4 (KJV) His breath goeth forth, he (his body) returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
I preach the gospel of repent or perish, if you want to preach repent of burn forever, just make sure your are 100% certain , so that you will not have the blood of others on your hands.
[quote author=Ken4Christ]With deep interest,I read through all the comments you all made so far on hell. frosbel is right.I will give my reasons.
I don't think we agree.
The scripture talks about eternal torment. Here are some of them,
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11) This passage refers to the era of the anti Christ and the punishment that will follow those who worship the image of the beat. Notice it says, they shall have no rest day nor night.
Wrong.
1. They are tormented day and night for a period because the bible quite clearly says that in the new world there will be no more Night.
"There will be no more night....." - Revelation 22:5
2. Jesus Christ and the Holy Angels are not going to watch these pathetic creatures in torment for all eternity , I am sure there are better things to do.
When one dies, there is an instant judgment. Those who reject the gospel or Christians that not live right will be held in the custody of hell until the final judgment day. It is like when you arrest someone, until he is taken to court, he is kept in detention. But after he is convicted, he will be thrown into cell to serve his punishment. Hell is a place of detention for offenders.
LIE.
There is one Judgement, nothing like instant judgement , except you are calling Jesus a LIAR when he said :
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment." - John 5:28-29
Note here, that these people are dead and in their graves, not in heaven or hell, they will be resurrected and judged, this is the same as the white throne judgement.
It is appointed to MAN to die once and after that ( resurrection ) judgement not judgments.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. No specific names are mentioned in parables. The fact that the rich man's name was not mentioned does not make it a parable. Jesus deliberately withheld his name.
Did Jesus tell you that he deliberately withheld the name of the rich man , or is this your assumption ?
Besides what is a SOUL ? The bible never refers to a MAN as a SOUL independent of his body.
For example :
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." - Genesis 2:7
and
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." - 1 Corinthians 15:45
A Soul refers to the complete MAN , for when he dies his body returns to the grave and his life which is the breath or spirit of God returns to GOD.
I am sure Solomon knows far more than us, when he said :
"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7
If we assume that something called a SOUL leaves the body at death , which is the stuff of Greek Pagan Myth, then we have a problem , for a spirit or ghost cannot have a physical tongue to taste with and by implication a head and body etc.
Let us engage our God given brains
Two specific character where mentioned- Lazarus and Abraham. Tell me, name any parable that Jesus gave that he called specific name. There is none. This one is not a parable. Jesus was recalling an incident that happened years before now by the Spirit of God. The rich man died and lifted up his eyes in hell. But Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom. If this does not convince you, I will give you another proof.
It was a Parable.
"He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything." - Mark 4;34
When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, the book of Jude revealed to us that they are currently suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7). Note the word suffering is used in present continuous term.
Sodom and Gomorrah does not exist today, it was destroyed by the eternal fire of GOD.
When man dies, his body is buried in the grave but his soul goes to hell if he doesn't know Jesus.
Wrong.
"The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered." - Ecclesiastes 9:5
The dead do not know anything. In death there are no thoughts, no knowledge, no wisdom, no emotions, no work nor device, and certainly no consciousness, for without thoughts there can be no consciousness.
Death is exactly like a very deep sleep; consequently the Bible frequently refers to death as sleep. When a person dies, he is simply in the grave, where he will remain until the resurrection. He has no thoughts; he is unconscious, exactly as if he were in a very deep sleep.
If the dead are alive somewhere else then the resurrection is a JOKE !!!
His spirit go to heaven if he is born again the very day he dies.
Show us where this is stated in the bible.
Jesus told his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them and when he had completed this arrangement , he will come back for them. hmmm , are you saying he has come back to take them in a secret rapture.
Let's hear what Job thinks about your theology.
"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:" - Job 19:26
See here, Job did not say after his body is destroyed he will see GOD in the spirit or as a soul, nay , he quite clearly said that he will see GOD in the BODY which implies a resurrection of this same body.
David was surely not mad when he said : Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
and Lord Jesus who knew what death actually entailed said about Lazrus when he dies : John 11:11-14 ...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Then Daniel's statement on the resurrection , which implies the awakening of the dead from their sleep, fits in nicely as below : "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12;2
The soul of a man has complete features as the physical body. Our physical body is just like a house. The very essence of life comes from the soul or the spirit. So, death is not a cessation of existence. Your soul is even more sensitive without the body. How do you feel when you are without a clothing? Your body becomes more sensitive to weather conditions.
