OLAADEGBU: (Hebrews 10:31) The Evidence Bible.

If as you say, death in the grave is the end how will it be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God? If death is the fate of the likes of Adolf Hitler, OBL and those who committed less crimes why should we be preaching the gospel if every sinner is just going to end up dead in the grave?

frosbel:

I have news for you my religious friend :

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." - 1 John 4:18

OLAADEGBU:

It is rather a cause for concern when compromising Christians join ranks with pagans in attacking the infallible word of God. You should rather fear the right kind of fear instead of compromising the faith because of the fear of man:

"Be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" (1 Peter 3:14-15).

frosbel:


If the dead are with Jesus Christ NOW , what is the point of him coming back to take them to be with him forever ?

Remove your religious cap for a moment and think .

OLAADEGBU:

If you are really putting on your thinking cap you should be wondering why we should be wasting our time preaching the gospel in the first place (and that's if you even preach the gospel at all). Since in your opinion the sinners who die wouldn't necessarily be punished but only fall asleep not to be woken up again for all eternity.

frosbel:

If the dead are with Jesus Christ NOW , what is the point of him coming back to take them to be with him forever ?

Remove your religious cap for a moment and think .

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

OLAADEGBU:

This is the kind of thinking that robs you from seeing with the eyes of eternity. The body is like a handglove that gets buried in the grave while the spirit and soul goes to be with the Lord.

(2 Corinthians 5:.

Intellectual assent will miss this truth.

alexleo:

Here is my own little submission to what you asked, feel free to raise your objections(as long as its in a discussion mode rather than attacking mode).

Death is never our hope but the resurrection.
Let me start by making some points about sleep (which the bible also used to describe death).
1. When someone is said to be sleeping it means there will be a time the person will wake up.
2. someone that is sleeping is not totally out of activity rather he is inactive in one environment(physical) and active in another environment(the dream).

Now the bible describes death as sleep or those who died in christ as being asleep(as you rightly quoted in the scriptural passage) because of the fact that there is going to be a day they ll resurrect. That day, when the trump of God sounds they which are asleep in Christ will rise first(which is the first point i made about sleep). In other words, death in this sense is not a permanent end rather a temporary thing just like sleep. Again as i stated in my point two about sleep, someone who is said to be asleep is not totally out of activity rather, he is out of activity on one side of the divide and active on the other side. In other words, sleep takes one out of activity in one environment and bring him active in another environment. Therefore in this case where sleep defines what the bible means by death, the issue of what went on between Lazarus and the rich man when death took them away from being active in the earthly environment to be active in another environment(which is my second point about sleep) cannot be said to be false. Again that story did not tell us that Lazarus was in heaven but rather in the bosom of Abraham(the bible did not say it is heaven and we are not also saying that) Again there is nothing in that passage that suggests that Lazarus will dwell there forever. Rather what we see there is someone who is resting in the bossom of Abraham.

Here is another case to buttress this point in Revelation 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

The highlighted supports the fact that in death the soul is still active somewhere.
Resurrection remains our hope because it is at that time that our bodies will be changed to a glorious one which we will put on to go and be with the Lord forever(both the dead in Christ and the living).
And of course if there is no resurrection, those who are asleep in Christ perish because what else is a child of God worth without the hope of seeing Jesus and being with him forever.
YES I AGREE WITH YOU DEATH IS NOT OUR HOPE.

alexleo: @frosbel, here are my replies to the issues you raised. I had to separate it this way because nairaland quote couldnt work here. I seperated it in three parts- My post, Your reply and My response(to your reply).

My Post- 2. someone that is sleeping is not totally out of activity rather he is inactive in one environment(physical) and active in another environment(the dream).


Your reply or question:- Can you support this with the bible.

My response-You and i know that when we are sleeping we are no more conscious of what is happening around us but in the dream we still find ourselves doing things and still thinking we are doing it in the physical. I mean this is a general experience everyone of us have when we sleep. In the bible too people slept and had dreams. One of them was Jacob in Genesis 28:11-12. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.




My Post- Again as i stated in my point two about sleep, someone who is said to be asleep is not totally out of activity rather, he is out of activity on one side of the divide and active on the other side.


Your reply- How can this be ? sleep in the natural context implies a static position of rest, why should this be different with death ?

And which side of the divide are the righteous in this context ?


My response to you- Yes you are correct with your definition of sleep and the static position of rest makes you not active in that environment as i said, yet somewhere in the dream which is another environment, you are active- doing something, walking, running, talking or working etc and even think you are doing it in the physical like i earlier mentioned. Relate this to what happens in death(which is described as sleep). Right here in the physical you are no more active, but in the spiritual or supernatural realm your soul is active(which is supported in the scriptures with the lazarus story and the revelation 6:9-11 that i quoted).



My post- In other words, sleep takes one out of activity in one environment and bring him active in another environment.


Your reply- But this is not the definition of sleep in the natural sense and the bible does not support this position.

My response- Your definition of sleep is still same with what i gave there but not with exact words as yours and i agree with your definition too like i said.



My Post- Therefore in this case where sleep defines what the bible means by death, the issue of what went on between Lazarus and the rich man when death took them away from being active in the earthly environment to be active in another environment(which is my second point about sleep) cannot be said to be false. Again that story did not tell us that Lazarus was in heaven but rather in the bosom of Abraham(the bible did not say it is heaven and we are not also saying that) Again there is nothing in that passage that suggests that Lazarus will dwell there forever. Rather what we see there is someone who is resting in the bossom of Abraham.


Your replies- 1. How do you reconcile this to the verse in the bible , where Jesus said he will come back to take his saints to be with him after he prepares a place for them ? What is the point of him coming to take his dead saints to be with him if they are already with him ?

2. Paul said if there is no resurrection the dead in Christ have perished, surely he is wrong, the dead in Christ are with Christ , why should they perish ?


My Response- If you read my post well, I didnt say they are already with Jesus or in heaven. The two passages I mentioned did not also say that the souls are in heaven neither did it say they are with Christ and i leave it at what the scripture said.



My post- Here is another case to buttress this point in Revelation 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.


Your reply- This is an allegory similar to what we have recorded in Genesis 4:10

"The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." - Genesis 4:10

Are we to suggest here that Abel's blood was literally crying out ?


My response- I may agree with what you said here that its an allegory(because there was not statement that was made by the blood of Abel). God just said that the blood cried out. But the one i quoted in revelation 6:9-11 shows there was a communication going on so its quite a different case from that of Abel. In revelation the souls asked a question- how long will...... and there was a reply that they should wait a little longer..... The two cases are not the same.


My post- The highlighted supports the fact that in death the soul is still active somewhere.


Your reply- Where ?

My response- The bible did not say its heaven and since its obvious that its also not on earth then we could say its in the supernatural realm(Not heaven)



My Post- Resurrection remains our hope because it is at that time that our bodies will be changed to a glorious one which we will put on to go and be with the Lord forever(both the dead in Christ and the living).
And of course if there is no resurrection, those who are asleep in Christ perish because what else is a child of God worth without the hope of seeing Jesus and being with him forever.


Your reply- But how can he perish ? He is not really dead , he is already living with the Lord in Abraham's bosom located in Heaven , no ? and the resurrection is just a formality , death has already achieved the Christian's hope of being with the Lord in heaven.

My response- Again i did not say he is not dead rather i related it to sleep which the bible used in describing death. we did not also say that Abraham's bossom is heaven or a place where we ll be with the Lord. Even those passages didnt make mention of those places as a permanent place of stay or a place of stay with the Lord. We are all looking for that day that the trumpet of God will sound and all saved souls(both dead and alive) will be taken up to heaven to go and be with the Lord forever. May God help us all to be there. Amen.



This is the little submission i can make now to the issues you raised. God bless you.

frosbel:

Jesus made the following statement to his disciples :

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am - John 14:3

Jesus has not come back yet , we all know this, how can they then be with him ? Was Jesus contradicting himself ?

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise"

[quote author=OLAADEGBU]

Since you have turned a deaf ear to all answer given implies that your mind is already made up and you simply don't want to be confused with the facts and this case the truth that will make you free.

frosbel:

I agree.

But God does not contradict himself, something is wrong when we have 2 or more views on the same truth.

What has helped me after leaving deerperlife and Apostolic faith , is an independent ability to reason through scripture without the interference of other people's opinion or the creeds and dogmas of their organisations , which in most cases are held as infallible.

Ayomivic:
please oga frobel keep your reason to your self and stop misleading people.we need that thing you call 'fear of hell' if it will help us strive to enter heaven.

Be careful of what you are preaching bro.

frosbel:


My reasoning is based on scripture.

I am worried that none of you can answer my question, this is the sad state of Christianity today in Nigeria.

OLAADEGBU:

Ken4Christ for instance answered your question but you are far gone to see it.

frosbel:

He did not, are you scared of implicating yourself or too proud to admit your error ?

Ken4Christ:

frosbel, you did not comment on the scripture that says that Jesus soul was not left in hell. How did his soul got to hell if man is completely unconscious after death in the realm of the spirit?
“For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:25-31)

You also did not answer the question- how did Jesus took the keys of hell and death if his soul did not go to hell?
Before I continue to enlighten you, I want to give you the basis for correct scripture interpretation

1. Not everything in the Bible is truth but everything is truly stated. Yes, the scripture says the Bible is inspired by God but the entire content is not all God’s word. I will give you examples.
a. The devil spoke and his words were recorded. The fact that it is in the Bible does not convert his words to God’s word
b. The donkey also spoke. Is the donkey’s word the word of God because it is in the Bible?
c. Some men spoke their minds. Are those words also the words of God? For instance Job during his afflictions said so many things that are not in consonant with God’s character. “And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. (Job 1:21)
Job implies in this verse that both good and evil comes from God. So if someone dies, it is the Lord that is responsible. This is why so many religious leaders till date use this verse to console themselves during death. Job was only speaking his mind and what he said is not God’s word.
When Jesus came he let us know that the devil is the one responsible for all evil – “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10).
Even James confirms that only good things comes from God. “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17).

So, you see why you cannot just use any scripture you see to buttress your point. Even God himself rebuked Job for his wrong comments - Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? (Job 38:1-2). The Lord told Job here that most of the things he said are words without knowledge.
Even David that wrote most of the psalms did not know it all. They all had limited knowledge. So all he said cannot be used authoritatively. The only authority you can rely on is the authority of Jesus and his Apostles. Jesus came and gave us better understanding on spiritual matters. So if you will continue to use any scripture to argue your case, I am not ready to debate with you because we will never agree. Try and focus more on the New Testament. It is the new light that God has given to us. Having said that, I will now begin to throw more light on the issues I raised earlier on.

1. You said the torment will not be forever. Your proof is not based on scripture but on reasoning.
The word says there will be no more night in the new world. Yes that is correct. But it was not referring to the lost world. Those that are thrown into the lake of fire will be in another world.
You are not the one to decide how long the Angels will supervise their torment. Besides, there is no time in the spirit world.
If you are saying the torment will not be forever, it means those in the lake of fire will come back to God and serve him. You also know the devil will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Are you saying that God will stop tormenting the devil and the devil will be free again to fight against God?
“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10).

So, please the word of God is very clear on this. If he says it is forever, then that is it. That is why we urge all to repent now.
The Angel of God warned, “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11)
The book of revelations warns us not to add or subtract from the prophecy given. “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19). Subtracting from it can cost you your salvation. Please, you must not will all argument even to the detriment of your salvation

2. You said that the Bible says there is one judgment. I agree but I am only explaining to you the process of the judgment. If the dead does not continue to live after death, why did Jesus promised the thief that he shall be with him in paradise that very day. Was Jesus drunk when he gave that promise? And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43). I know that many Bible scholars have attempted to rephrase what Jesus said as meaning that he was making a promise that day of a future event. You can always twist the scripture to suit your preconceived opinion.

When Paul was about to end his ministry, he told his disciples that he is in the valley of decision. He is trying to chose between staying with them a while or leaving them to be with the Lord. Paul knew when he has passed on from here; he will be with the Lord. “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:23). He did not say it as something that will happen on the resurrection day. He said it as someone that knows that as soon as he dies, he will be with the Lord. Paul won't call it a better option if he was going to wait till resurrection day.

Now Jesus said Abraham saw his days and he his happy. If Abraham is unconscious, how did he see the day of Jesus? “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (John 8:56).
I gave a simple illustration. When a police arrest you for a crime, you are detained until you are either proved innocent or guilty. Hell is a place where all those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus gets detained until the judgment day.

3. You said a soul refers to the complete man. I do not know whether you read English in school. I guess you did. It is very wrong to give one single meaning to any word. Haven’t you used dictionary to check out the meanings of words before? If you have, you will notice variance usage and meanings from the same word. Sometimes a word can have up to 7 different usage or meaning, So, what determines the meaning of a word is the context in which the word is used.
Yes, there are sevaral scripture were the word soul is used to mean the person as a whole. But it also used in another sense.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23 ).

Paul here talks about our spirit, soul and body. This is what makes the complete man. In another place, he says that it is only the word that can separate the soul from the spirit. That means, they look like the same thing but they are not. “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12 ). Our Lord Jesus also distinguished between body and soul. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28)
In this context, the word soul does not refer to the whole being. If it does, Jesus would not make the distinction.

4. You said Jesus did not speak without a parable. So all he said was parables. Even John 3:16 is a parable. Please, let us be honest with ourselves. Read all the parables of Jesus and compared them with the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You will see the marked differences. Winning an argument should not make you blind. If you read most of Jesus parables, you will see consistency in the presentation. He usually starts with ‘The Kingdom of heaven is likened unto….in most of his parables. No specific names are mentioned in parables. No one will even need to tell you he was speaking in parables on those occasions. But on the story of the rich man, let’s look at it again.

“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:19-24)

Go and ask any English student. When you say there was a certain rich man, the word certain makes it a definite article and not generic. If he had said, there was a rich man, we would have been tempted to believe it is a parable. Now he went further to say that there was a certain beggar. Another definite article. Even if he had stopped there, it would still convey the fact that he is referring to a particular person. But he went further to give his name. I don’t know what more to say. Jesus is narrating an event that took place several years before that time. The fact that it does not agree with your theology does not mean you can call it whatever you want to call it. Even if it was a parable, you can only make parables with things that are practicable. So, it still conveys the massage that after death, there are two destinations you go to instantly. Heaven or hell.

5. Yes Sodom and Gomorrah does not exist but Jude 7 says the inhabitants are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire currently in hell. “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7).
6. You quoted Eccl 9:5 which reads; “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. This was Solomon talking and not God. Like I said earlier on, not everything in the Bible is God’s word. There are even times Paul will say I and not the Lord in his statement.
7. When Jesus says Lazarus is sleeping, it did not say he was unconscious in the realm of the spirit. He later told his disciples that he meant Lazarus is death. When you sleep, don’t you see yourself in places in dreams. You look exactly the way you are in the physical. Did you carry your physical body along with you? Many a time you will not know it is a dream until you wake up. This is how death is. In the physical, you are lifeless, but you will find yourself somewhere else in the realms of the spirit. Have you ever asked yourself which part of your being was involved in the dream. It certainly is your soul. You can still feel yourself, touch things, interact like in normal life. There is life in the spirit world. Paul said once that his spirit was caught up to the third heaven. He was not too sure if his body was carried along. There are people whose spirit have left their bodies to visit the realm of the spirit and they come back and enter their body again.
“I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). Paul knew it was possible for his spirit to leave his body. Your spirit is the real you. Your body is just a case housing your spirit. Death simply means your spirit has been separated from your body and it leaves on either in hell or in heaven. We use the word soul for unbelievers because their spirit is dead.

I know you will want me to clarify why the Bible says we shall rise on resurrection day. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)

If we say that when we die, our spirit goes to heaven, why then does the Bible say that the dead in Christ shall rise first? Those that died in Christ are with him with their spirits and not with their bodies. So, when Jesus comes to take us home, the spirits of those that are dead in Christ will come with him and they will be re united with their physical bodies. Look at the underlined phrase above. ‘Even so them also which sleep in Jesus God WILL BRING WITH HIM. How will God bring them with Jesus if they were not with him? This is the mystery if life. How do you think your dead body will rise without the spirit? It is your spirit that gives your body life.

Whatever disposition you take on this article, if you don’t accept them now, I pray that one day, God will give you an understanding heart.

God bless all the readers and if you have any questions on any subject you can reach me on kenmacaulay@ymail.com. Thank you for the opportunity to share with you the truth of God’s word.

frosbel: ^^^^

Most of these points have been rebuffed.


Anyway, he did not mention anything about John 14:3, which I will repeat here for you.


And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am - John 14:3

Since you know the truth, surely this easy scripture should not stump you , kindly answer, you know I tackle questions head on, we are all here to learn, I can also teach you if you fail this small test.

We are waiting, John 14:3 , not what Mr A or Mr B said.

OLAADEGBU:

You need to ask yourself whether you will be ready when He comes to take His people home.

frosbel:

But his half of his people are already home with him even before the resurrection , no ?





You may want to consider :



"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders , but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." - Matthew 23 :2- 4

frosbel:


My reasoning is based on scripture.

I am worried that none of you can answer my question, this is the sad state of Christianity today in Nigeria.

[quote author=Ayomivic]
your reasoning is not based on scripture. You twisted the scripture and by doing that you add to the scripture what the scripture does not say. what the scripture say is that

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable,and murderers and woremongers and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNETH with FIRE and BRIMESTONE :which is the second death.

OLAADEGBU:

Believers in Christ who have gone to glory are at the moment in their spirit bodies but at the resurrection there buried physical bodies will be transformed when the trumpet sounds.

Their bodies will be like that of Christ's glorious body when their spirit bodies resurrects in their physical bodies and this becomes the glorious bodies on the resurrection day.

There are many rooms enough for those who will not be carried away by surfetting and drunkeness when He comes. Are you prepared? In my Father's house their are many mansions there.

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come"

To Die Is Gain

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21).

Although the glorious resurrection bodies which have been promised all believers must await the return of Christ, even the spirit-existence after death is better than this present life for the believer. Paul himself expressed "a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:23)- "to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:.

Thus, it is "gain" when a Christian dies! Since Christ, in His resurrection body, is in heaven at the right hand of the Father the spirits of "sleeping" Christians are also there. The intermediate state is somewhat analogous to the dreaming state, in which the consciousness travels to various places and experiences while the body is asleep. In fact, death is called "sleep" for the Christian (1 Thessalonians 4:13).

However, in some unexplained way, these conscious spirits of believers are still distinct and recognizable. Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3), as well as Samuel (1 Samuel 28:12–19), were identifiable in their spirit-form, even by people here on earth.

One of the greatest blessings of dying and going to be with the Lord will be the joy of returning with Him "at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints" (1 Thessalonians 3:13). "Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. . . . And the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:14,16), just before the "rapture" and glorification of the saints who are still living. As wonderful as it might be to live until Christ returns, it will be even better to be with Him!

The death of a Christian, therefore, may be a time of loss and grief for those left behind, but it is a time of joy and blessing for the one who dies, including a happy reunion with those who have gone before. HMM

For more . . . .

OLAADEGBU: These are the words our Lord and Saviour gave to His disciples and by extension believers today, and unless you don't possess the Holy Spirit you should be able to be guided into the whole truth and not be tossed to and fro by the evil sleight of men.

(John 16:12-13).

The article below shows how Paul and others under the influence of the Holy Spirit were able to rightly divide the word of God especially relating to what happens when we sleep in the Lord:

frosbel:


Once again , you are jumping all over the place , unable to stay on topic or stick to the point, each time I debunk your 'myths' , you shift the goal post, how many of your myths do you want me to debunk ?


You still have not explained John 14:3.

I will consider your other points, once you do this or if you do this.

Ayomivic:

it seem this thing is getting complicated ok let see if you know what you are saying. Answer this question. You believed in second death right?

Can you tell us the kind of punishment God will give to ungodly people on the day of judgement according to the scripture. Pls answer.

OLAADEGBU:

Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into the truth if you are one of His.

dorox:
Unless it has changed, is the wages of sin no longer death?

frosbel:

Let us assume I am not one of his as you would like to imply, but you who are his, can you not decipher John 14:3 in the right context or could it be religious pride preventing you from performing this simple exercise ?

"I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"

[quote author=OLAADEGBU]

Why don't you just admit your tragic ignorance and let us put you out of your misery?

There were many ignoramuses during the days of Paul and if you study the Scriptures under the auspices of the Holy Spirit you will be enlightened and delivered from this malady.