Thank you dodgur?

You must be confused if you are equating a discussion about fake "tongue speaking" with assault on the Holy Spirit, please don't insult my intelligence as you don't even have a background on me let alone how long I've seen these stuff.

I've been around for a minute dude and I would never blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, you might want to turn your attention to those who are diluting the pool for the few that actually speak in tongues.

I am not a comedian and have no need to be funny.

at Bobbyaf

It sounds to me just as you said, she was most likely possession.  It is not uncommon for those with demons to actively disrupt services I have seen similar things myself.  I have even heard of demons seemingly perusing a particular person.  I priest I once knew told of how while he was in seminary in the 60s he went with a priest to a girls house, if I remember correctly, where the girl had a spirit (demon) she was freed from it and lived out her life but he continued, much later something to the end of 30 years or so, he encountered a possessed man that during his utterances called the (now old priest) by his man.  Thing is he had never told the man his name the demon then continued and told him they had met before and described the earlier encounter.   Demons are not unfamiliar with the workings of God and they are good and mimicking them.   I’ve seen people who at one point acted as though “spirit filled Christians” began to writhe at the name of Jesus and at the sound of angelic tongues.   Simply because the enemy can mimic does not void the truth.  It is sometimes hard to tell I grant you, a tongue spoken at any time neither harms nor benefits anyone but the speaker.  A tongue given with interpretation, as I said earlier, is the same as prophecy and God say that prophecy is tested by whether or not it comes to pass.  If it is false it will not happen to the letter of how it was spoken and those false prophets with have to answer to God not man.

To ogajim

I’m sorry that it seemed that way I should have specified better that they were two separate subjects. When I quoted scripture I was speaking in general not specifically to you or anyone else for that matter, again I apologies. I try never to assume things of other whom I do not know. I was only speaking directly to you after I said your name that is all.

As for the assault on the Holy Spirit I was simply saying that the Bible tells of tongues, among other things, as being gifts of the Spirit therefore I would advise against mocking them to any who do, of which there is a lot on this thread. That is not me calling anyone one person out or saying it should not be discussed I believe it should be and in a very frank and respectable way; if for no other reason than one should never mock the beliefs of another regardless to if you agree with them or not.

Dodgur,


No worries, I respect your position.

@ Dodgur

It sounds to me just as you said, she was most likely possession.  It is not uncommon for those with demons to actively disrupt services I have seen similar things myself.

This is typical of most charismatic denominations. The whole church is speaking something whatever it is, all at once. I have been to their services and witnessed it myself where en block almost all the adult members start shouting and producing explosive sounds until they somehow fall into a trance.

Compare that to how the apostles use to worship. I am yet to come across any biblical account, or for some one who advocates speaking in tongues to show me just one instance where there was a similar behaviour in NT worship sessions, where persons walked and run all over the church building uncontrollably; where women's underwear was exposed; etc.

Simply because the enemy can mimic does not void the truth.

But what is the truth? The truth of the matter is that Paul were he alive would condemn modern-day versions of tongue speaking,  because for one it doesn't build up the church in anyway, unlike prophesying, and 2 it distracts more than anything else from the proper development of the teaching of doctrines. Why do I say that? It leads members into the false perception that tongue-speaking is the only evidence of being filled with God's Holy Spirit. That in and of itself is non-biblical. The true sign of anyone being filled with the Holy Spirit does not rest in exhibiting a gift, but more importantly, the fruit of the Spirit as mentioned by Paul in Gal. 5.

Jesus once said, "by their fruits ye shall know them"

The precondition for also receiving God's Holy Spirit is obedience to God's words. (See Acts 5:32) It cannot be that persons are free to claim gifts as they like, just because they are somehow able to utter sounds. That doesn't cut it. Claiming a gift and having to deal with your brother in a manner that isn't Christlike literally neutralizes such claims. Its pointless when there is no love in those who profess to speak in tongues.

Matthew 7:22 makes that very clear.

@Bobbyaf

That’s simply not true, I speak in tongues and I have a loving heart. I feel no anger towards you or anyone else who disagrees with me on this subject or most others (I would say any other subject but I’m only human). The fact of the matter is that I agree with you in part but not all. I attend a church wherein we pray in tongues but not one where people as you say run around the church and yell and all that. I don’t think I would much like a church where people did not show the proper reverence for the Lord’s house, I have seen people fall down and as you said about women showing their underthings the churches I’ve been to always have little blanket things to cover them so that is never an issue. However, there are two main things I would like to further discuses.
1. you said “I am yet to come across any biblical account, or for some one who advocates speaking in tongues to show me just one instance where there was a similar behavior in NT worship sessions, where persons walked and run all over the church building uncontrollably; where women's underwear was exposed; etc.” now we were not there to know just how they acted but on the day of Pentecost in Acts. 2:1-18 in 2:13 it says when referring to the way they were acting in king James
“Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.” In a more modern style it says
“But others in the crowd ridiculed them, saying, "They're just drunk, that's all!" which is much the same as people say about it these days is it not? It goes on to say in Act 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he (Jesus Christ) hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Another account is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit in in Matthew 3:16
“As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.” There are those who say that like a dove and not as a dove may mean in the way that a dove descends and not in the form or a dove and like the way that lightning descends and not the form of lightning. What does this mean? Have you ever seen a dove descend? They are not the most graceful the flutter about and often hit the ground in a clumsy heap, we all know lightning is sudden flashy and brash. Now I present this more as food for thought than facts but to me this sounds similar to those who convulse with the Holy Ghost.
2. is simple I do not know if Paul would or would not agree with people talking in tongues these days I know that in Acts Peter defended it and many were saved on that day.
I do not think that it is the only sign of having the Holy Spirit I believe most Christian do not speak in tongues that does not mean I think they do not have the Holy Spirit. It is simply the most common sign is all

@Bobbyaf

That’s simply not true, I speak in tongues and I have a loving heart.

I hope so for your sake.

How can you prove that what you speak is the biblical tongue as experienced in the NT church? In addition how do you justify Paul's purpose of tongue speaking as a sign to unbelievers, rather than to believers? If you speak in tongues privately how does that help unbelievers?

I feel no anger towards you or anyone else who disagrees with me on this subject or most others (I would say any other subject but I’m only human). The fact of the matter is that I agree with you in part but not all. I attend a church wherein we pray in tongues but not one where people as you say run around the church and yell and all that. I don’t think I would much like a church where people did not show the proper reverence for the Lord’s house, I have seen people fall down and as you said about women showing their underthings the churches I’ve been to always have little blanket things to cover them so that is never an issue.

I understand you brother, but don't think I am hitting you. Why should there be a need for women to be covered while in the process of speaking in tongues? The fact that a covering has to be thought of and brought into play is itself an issue. Doesn't that say something to you about the whole process? Why should speaking be accompanied by such activities?

The position I have chosen to take is one in which the bible is the standard, and not what a denomination has put in place. If we observe what happened at the day of Pentecost when the gift was first given we can clearly see a vast difference.

1. The disciples were gathered in one place sorting out their differences, until they became united. God's Spirit would not have been given if there was disunity.

2. There was evidence of God's presence. There was a sound of a rushing wind that filled the room, and there was a cloven tongue of fire resting on each person's head.

From all indications the central motif from all of this can be tied into the command that Jesus gave them in Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power , after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you : and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem , and in all Judaea , and in Samaria , and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

That central motif was to empower His disciples to witness which would have required breaking all language barriers. Hence the gift of languages. The emphasis was placed on witnessing and not the gift. Who would have been witnessed to? The Jewish people, the Samaritans, and ultimately the gentiles.

However, there are two main things I would like to furtherdiscuses.
1. you said “I am yet to come across any biblical account, or for some one who advocates speaking in tongues to show me just one instance where there was a similar behavior in NT worship sessions, where persons walked and run all over the church building uncontrollably; where women's underwear was exposed; etc.” now we were not there to know just how they acted but on the day of Pentecost in Acts. 2:1-18 in 2:13 it says when referring to the way they were acting in king James

“Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.” In a more modern style it says
“But others in the crowd ridiculed them, saying, "They're just drunk, that's all!" which is much the same as people say about it these days is it not? It goes on to say in Act 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he (Jesus Christ) hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Another account is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit in in Matthew 3:16

The above response has nothing to do with what I asked. Those who mocked were not Christians, but were the very ones who rejected Jesus. No where in Acts 2 does it speak to the level of confusion as seen in typical tarry services in these charismatic churches.

“As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.” There are those who say that like a dove and not as a dove may mean in the way that a dove descends and not in the form or a dove and like the way that lightning descends and not the form of lightning. What does this mean? Have you ever seen a dove descend? They are not the most graceful the flutter about and often hit the ground in a clumsy heap, we all know lightning is sudden flashy and brash. Now I present this more as food for thought than facts but to me this sounds similar to those who convulse with the Holy Ghost.
2. is simple I do not know if Paul would or would not agree with people talking in tongues these days I know that in Acts Peter defended it and many were saved on that day.
I do not think that it is the only sign of having the Holy Spirit I believe most Christian do not speak in tongues that does not mean I think they do not have the Holy Spirit. It is simply the most common sign is all

I am not sure you have grasped the nature of my questions brother. I am not against the gift, but the manner in which it is spoken. I am addressing the theatrics of the process. I am simply saying that if Paul were alive today He'd be against what we call speaking in tongues based on how its done, and especially as it is done in contradiction with what He stipulated in 1 Cor. 14.

In summary the real power lies in the witnessing and not the gift. The true test of conversion is not having the gift, but bearing fruit. See what Paul says in 1 Cor. 13? He makes it clear that no gift can supersede the fruit of love.

Ok let’s go about this in a different way as I believe we agree a lot more than it may seem but first let me get this tiny thing out of the way. When I spoke about covering ladies with blankets I was addressing the issue you raised when you said that women showing their underwear in church. Now I took that as you meaning people who fainted or did…. I’m not sure what to call it, a trance, if they were showing their underwear just because than that is wholly different and nothing I have seen before. I have never fallen into a trance so I cannot speak on the matter other than as an observer as you do, there for I won’t as I am ignorant about this subject. Hopefully that clears that tidbit up.
Ok let’s try this, I take it you are a Christian and if not than you are at least well versed in the Bible am I right? We both seem to believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit I believe. We both confess that we were not there for the day of Pentecost and therefore we can neither speak first hand as to all the languages spoken how it appeared ect.
You spoke of disunity, I take it you mean in the church as a universal church right. Well, all I can say to that in that is that Jesus said wherever even two come together in my name I will be there. I take that as saying if two are in agreement than there in unity in Christ there among them. Does that stand to reason?
Your next point was that there was evidence of God by way of the sound and the flaming tongue. I agree, was there that when I first spoke, no. But I will say this, I prayed for years to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost and it was not until a prophet came and (without my request) laid hands on me and told me God said to speak. I lay there silent I didn’t know what to do. He (a nice old country boy) kinda laughed at my confusion a bit and said “Just start talking boy. Let those funny words come out.” When I finally let go and simply spoke I spoke in a full new language, I could hear then a reputation in it like that of a singular language but not like any other I had ever heard. It flowed like water, faster and far easier than if I were to try and pray in front of people in my native tongue. You may think this is me trying to get attention but to what end? You don’t even know my name or who I am nor I yours. All I can say is that I know it to be true because I do it and I am not doing it for anything but to closer myself to Him. and as a born again Christian cannot fully explain what it feels like to give your life to God and have that feeling and relief come over you I can hardly do this justice. All I can say is that as one who does I do not look down in any way on those who do not and I ask that those who do not please extend the same.
As I said a tongue given without interpretation does no harm nor good to anyone but the speaker. No it is not better than winning souls to Christ but it’s not for that. Do I fully understand it, no. I know it’s real because… it’s real, just as I know salvation is real or miraculous healings are real, I’ve experienced them . I can look for answers to sight from others or scripture that I think relates but I can tell you no more than I know, and what I know is thus. I would like to continue this conversation.

I repeat. . .Speaking in tongues is a massive fraud!

TONGUES IS NOT A FRAUD IS FROM GOD OPEN YOUR HEART AS YOU READ THIS TEACHING :

THE GIFT OF TONGUES

a study outline by Pastor Terry Somerville

[b]
1. Tongues means "languages"

- these may be known human languages
Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

-these may be unknown languages, even heavenly languages

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

1 Corinthians 14:2 howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


2. Tongues is a gift the Holy Spirit gives to "my spirit" so my spirit can pray

, my mind cannot produce it, or comprehend it. It seems foolish
1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

3. Speaking in unknown tongues is praying, blessing, & thanking in the spirit

1 Corinthians 14:15-17 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

4. Speaking in tongues is speaking to God

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


5. Speaking in tongues edifies (builds up) the speaker

. He is praying from the very deepest part of his being , in union with the Holy Spirit, in a way unhindered by the natural mind
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself,

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


6. When these languages are spoken in public and are recognized they are a sign to unbelievers

1Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not,

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


7. When these languages are unknown there should be a gift of interpretation following tongues to edify the church.

This is equivalent to prophecy.
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.


8. God will give a speaker in tongues the power to interpret if he asks

.
1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.

9. Speaking, praying, blessing and singing in tongues is to be part of our worship

.
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


10. Tongues (like every gift) is affected by the character of the speaker

and can come across in a clangorous manner. It is still a genuine gift but colored by the vessel it's poured through! (This is why many Christian don't like it! -Paul's remedy is love, not elimination)
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


11. Paul directed that tongues must not be forbidden

Many churches today are grieving the spirit by this sin.
1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


12. The Apostles regarded tongues as proof that the Holy Spirit had come.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


13. Common objection - "The perfect has come (the scripture)" so we don't need tongues!

Read the whole scripture reference and ask yourself if the perfect has come or not!
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

-Has knowledge vanished away?

-Do you know Him face to face?


Another objection - "The gifts ceased with the death of the apostles

." Picture it , the saints are worshipping in Jerusalem, praying in tongues, laying hands on the sick. Suddenly their voices chokes up, they pull away their hands. " Oh no! John must have died on Patmos. I'm sorry Jesus won't heal you now! But cheer up. The perfect has come."[/b]

its simply an opportunity to act stupiD.

grace5 thank you, that was as well a teaching on tongues as an I have ever heard

Speaking in tongue is all about speaking gibberish

Speaking in tongue is gibberish. Just blurt whatever comes out from ur mouth

Huh ? Big jesu error is disturbing ur canal brain

No one is goin to hades for not believin in tongues. I have witnessed, and I agree, just blah blah gibberish. People can make manifest what ever they want, no one get that gift over others. We are all capable of communticating with languages, effort and love!! That is our gift, speaking in tongues is an utter waste of time and energy!! It is not to be taken literally by todays english.

Speaking in tongues is about talking to God and i am sure He that is greater than the greatest understands

After being born again, the next glorious experience is for a man to recieve the holyghost with ability to pray

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; ,

That was what happened on the day of pentecost.

Acts 2:4-6
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to[b] speak with other tongues,[/b] as the Spirit gave them utterance. [5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. [6] Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

God allowed them to speak in known language for a special purpose on that day. because people came from different nations and God allowed such a spectacular manifestation and thousands were reached for christ from the different nations. but that doesnt mean speaking in tongues must be done in a known language even though that still have is certain situation. There are different ways of speaking in tongues.
Paul talked about tongues of angels and tongues of men.

1 Cor. 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

It doesnt always have to be in tongues of men (language)

Isaiah 28:11
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

So if some stammering or repetitons are noticed ,it is ok The issue is not how eloquent but the power that was released from the spirit. shakababala or whatever. There are even worst ones! like groaning in the spirit , singing in the spirit , laughing etc. They are ways the spirit helps us to pray in the will of God.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

So if someone groan and it make sense in heaven how much the one that could pronounce some "nonsense"

1 Cor. 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

There are times while praying in tongues that it get to a point you cant even say word again, no more shkabrakabalaba, all you just experience is groans, or strange sounds. Do you know what groan is. like someone trying to poo a harrd poo! or a woman in labour.

Jesus did it too. When lazarus died, The only prayer Jesus did was to groan in the spirit.

John 11:33
When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit,, ,

John 11:38
Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

John 11:41-43
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. [42] And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. [43] And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

He thanked God for hearing him,but he never made a prayer ,except the groan he made in the spirit.So the issue is not how the thing sound but where it is coming from and the power that is discharged.

Now what most people used today to attack tongues is 1Cor 14: e.g interpretation and so on.You know the corinthian church was troublesome to Paul , they abused spiritual gift. somebody could give prophesy int tongues there. Imagine someone says " thus saith the lord", shakabradada sbbebbe. amen! and sits down. They ask another person to round up service in prayer and he says " Father, shabododbobdodo kokoko. Amen"

It is wrong to speak tongues, when you give prophecy or you are praying on behalf of others cooperately

1 Cor. 14:16
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

If you must do that you need to interprete the "brakalabala rekete" or else keep quiet.
the whole church can pray individually to God in tongues if its an instruction cooperately. and you can talk to God in tongues individualy, but if you must talk to the church, "English please"

Hehehe, confussion in the house

Cant we assume dat both religion speak in tongues As an exmuslim i could speak arabic,but when i heard peep spoke it,i taught it was d language we will speak in Heaven

Mazaje, there is nothing like speaking in tongue in Islam. The rubbish is only in the dictionary of the cross worshipper

You know not all "cross worshipers" put up with those tongues speakers!!ha! I am not welcome in my catholic church because I see the hypocricy, and don't "shut up" as I have lately been instructed to do. HA! Mind you I'm sure if I was married and had a man's money attached to an arguement the church would be more inclined to listen, I'm sure!! For no I am out judged in a church that holds more human than Godly spirit!! Fake Christians, "tongues speakers" make terrible religious enemies cause they deem themselves the be all and end all in religion.

You are a good christian

Funny, no one ever says that to me?!? The tongue speakers told me to get out and shut up last week!!! LOL!! However that was on a totally separate issue than the speaking (racism). Why is it that those who believe in speaking in foreign languages are scared of foreigners? If I say salam aliekum in church the want to frisk me for weapons, but they can shackle lacka and no one said a word!!

God bless you, you are intelligent. Wallayi the christian use salama laikum in the north which means God mercy be unto you

Here comes another maga