At least LogicBoy has some logic (see what i did there ) Why should the woman suffer for the crime of the man

striktlymi: Let's put things in proper perspective...

Do we play God with the life of the unborn because we are scared to have a child that looks like this?

What if, not aborting the Child will put the Mother's life at Risk. Of what use is it to keep the Child when it will lead only to the demise of both it and the Mother?

Mr anony:
Here is the analogy again:
The story is about Dr Gosnell who was convicted of first degree murder for killing babies minutes after delivery.
If only he had killed them while they were yet in the womb or partially delivered, he would have been an innocent man.

I find the above story absurd. As someone put it, "It is like sentencing a Nazi soldier to prison for beating a Jew to death instead of conveniently sending him to the gas chamber as he had been trained to do.

Tell me again why the fact that Nazis weren't punished for beating their prisoners to death in real life changes the meaning of my analogy in any way.

If the Nazi doesn't get punished, then you have no basis for comparing that to the punishment of Dr. Gosnell

Mr anony:
But you said the state is interested in the fetus. When I asked why it is wrong to kill a fetus beyond the age of viability. So tell me again; Why is it wrong?

Asked and answered:

thehomer:
the foetus at that point can survive outside the mother.

Mr anony:
I'm afraid I really can't see whatever it is that you are seeing there.

You cannot see your own concession? What then did you mean when you said we had a stalemate?

Mr anony:
I don't find this argument convincing however I'll let it slide as I don't want to go on a euthanasia tangent

Wait what? Even if you don't accept euthanasia, do you think that those who do accept it for treatable conditions?

Mr anony:
Let it be noted that you still haven't validated your claim here. Presenting for comparison a more absurd version of your original claim does not validate your claim. Try again

That's just it. It is valid. If you think it is invalid, then you need to show this.

Mr anony:
How does this accurately respond to my post again?

The fact that babies can be delivered and cared for before term without having their hearts stopped.

Mr anony:
But she doesn't have the right to her own body after the viability? Question still remains. Is she justified in killing the baby while it is within her womb after the age of viability? Feel free to keep dancing around

Why do you keep repeating questions that have been answered?

thehomer:
The mother's right continues through out her pregnancy.

Mr anony:
Is she justified in killing the baby while it is within her womb after the age of viability?

Asked and answered.

thehomer:
Firstly, the improvement of science has a significant bearing on this decision and isn't a mere side attraction. There is something morally wrong with killing a fetus when it has attained a certain stage of development because it can continue its development outside the mother. Thus, her right to choose is no longer being infringed upon once it has attained that stage.

Mr anony:
They are not the same sort of words. You provided a very vague explanation and I cleaned it up for you.

If you think they would be more appropriate to use in conveying the information across, then surely you can use them in those sentences and see how well it would work.

Mr anony:
Wrong this analogy doesn't match as they are not describing the exact same phenomenon from two points of view

They are expressing ideas in physics using different models just as the ideas I was talking about were expressing ideas in philosophy using different models. You're not even trying to understand your point or mine.

Mr anony:
How about you take it step by step and carefully explain why my argument in particular commits the slippery slope fallacy.
What you have done is no different from if I claimed that you have commited the ad hominem fallacy then I just post a link. . .and when you ask me to demonstrate it, I claim it some more.

Asked and answered again.
I didn't just post a link, this is what I did again:

thehomer:
No you're not justified in making that leap because such a leap commits the slippery slope fallacy. It is fallacious because there are in fact actual differences between say a zygote and a teenager at 15. e.g The teenager has a brain while the zygote doesn't.

Then I posted a link for your reference where they used an example of baldness. Just read it.

Mr anony:
How exactly do they know for sure that the baby will die 12 hours after delivery? Mind you they have to have this knowledge before the age of viability because if not, she has birth as an option. And also, if I knew my 1 year old baby will die in the next 12 hours, am I justified if I kill her now?

They know this from the multiple congenital anomalies it has and the statistical chances of its early death. These anomalies are detectable at 18 weeks of gestation.

That depends. What is the current state of the 1 year old baby? What are the chances of recovery?

Mr anony:
What exactly will he be guilty of?

From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia:
Girl age 15, accompanied by relative (1998): said to have told Gosnell she changed her mind about the abortion once inside the practice. Gosnell allegedly got upset, ripped off the patient's clothing, and forcibly restrained her. The patient later stated that Gosnell told her "This is the same care that I would give to my own daughter." She regained consciousness 12 hours later at her aunt's home, the abortion having been completed against her will.[32][40]

Woman age 28, five months pregnant (2001): Patient described the pain four days after abortion as being so bad she could barely walk. The patient described that upon returning to the clinic because of the pain, ultrasound showed fetal remains left inside her womb, and that Gosnell suctioned these out without anesthesia.[41] "I was just laying on the table and crying and I just asked the Lord to get me through it."[32]

Fifteen-year-old (undated): damages awarded in court upon a finding that Gosnell performed an abortion on a fifteen-year-old without parental permission.[32]

Karnamaya Mongar, a 41-year-old refugee from Bhutan (2009): according to prosecutors, Gosnell's staff gave the 90-pound woman a lethal dose of anesthesia and painkillers during a 2009 abortion (this is the adult whose death is charged as third degree murder). During Gosnell's trial, a toxicologist testified to unsafe levels of the drug, and the chair of Anesthesiology at the University of Pittsburgh Medical School testified that the dose the patient had was "outrageous" and "most" average adults would have stopped breathing if dosed in the manner described.[42] Gosnell's lawyer asserts that Karnamaya Mongar also had other drugs in her system that did not come from Gosnell's clinic, and that none of the infants were born alive.[34]

Logicboy03:



is the baby being aborted just because of the father or that such a baby would be too traumatic for a sanne woman to raise?


One dimensional thinking when life is in 3d

Should your daughter be molested, I would like to see yoyr stance then.......heartless dolt

Learn to attack opinions and not people. If you have nothing meaningful to contribute please get out!

Here are all tenable reasons for proper and justifiable abortion. (Please note that I only believe in abortion in the very earliest stages of pregnancy when all that exists is a fertilized egg. Regardless of what Anony may say: such a thing is not yet a human being. In no way, shape or form whatsoever.)

1. A pregnancy arising from an incident of Ra.pe

2. Extreme Poverty

3. Medical danger to either mother or child

4. Affinity & Consanguinity (E.g; Father impregnates daughter)

5. Non-desire for a child.

These are sane, perfectly logical reasons to accept an abortion.

Any person who argues against abortion on point of principle in the instances of Examples No 1, 3 & 4 above, is being inhumane and extremely thoughtless.

Reyginus: Learn to attack opinions and not people. If you have nothing meaningful to contribute please get out!

I attacked both......I showed him that he was not thinking about the mother when complaining about aborting the child.


You people hardly respond to reason....some abuse jars sense into you guys once in a while.........this is a life and death issue....Anony or one of you could be pastors or hold high position in churches and would have to advice women one day.......your christian "opinions" have already led to the depression of many women......


As for the abuse, I only told him what is necessary- put yourself in the molested woman's shoe- would you want your daughter to keep such a child?

Logicboy03:


I attacked both......I showed him that he was not thinking about the mother when complaining about aborting the child.


You people hardly respond to reason....some abuse jars sense into you guys once in a while.........this is a life and death issue....Anony or one of you could be pastors or hold high position in churches and would have to advice women one day.......your christian "opinions" have already led to the depression of many women......


As for the abuse, I only told him what is necessary- put yourself in the molested woman's shoe- would you want your daughter to keep such a child?

Honestly, I find it particularly depressing that anyone could suggest that a pregnancy which is the result of an incident of ra.pe should be kept. It is the height of barbarism, inhumanity and complete lack of empathy with fellow man. It is the most unchristian and most uncharitable suggestion I have ever come across in my life.

I say this as I vividly recall my armed-robbery experience last year, during which a newly engaged young lady was ra.ped by the armed robbers. If such were to result in pregnancy, I am appalled to think that some here would suggest or even insist that such a pregnancy should be kept by the traumatized couple. These same robbers murdered 4 people in cold blood that night, including two at the scene of the ra.pe.

Think again, Anony, think again.

May it never happen to you or one close to you before you are forced to understanding of other people's trauma.

Deep Sight: Here are all tenable reasons for proper and justifiable abortion. (Please note that I only believe in abortion in the very earliest stages of pregnancy when all that exists is a fertilized egg. Regardless of what Anony may say: such a thing is not yet a human being. In no way, shape or form whatsoever.)

1. A pregnancy arising from an incident of Ra.pe

2. Extreme Poverty

3. Medical danger to either mother or child

4. Affinity & Consanguinity (E.g; Father impregnates daughter)

5. Non-desire for a child.

These are sane, perfectly logical reasons to accept an abortion.

Any person who argues against abortion on point of principle in the instances of Examples No 1, 3 & 4 above, is being inhumane and extremely thoughtless.

Agreed but there is a problem......there cant be a limit on when to abort....

Anony and I went to a debate in London about whether there should be a limited time for abortion. Most people there were for abortion but they were ready to leave the decision to the mother or to the state for a limited abortion. The woman or women should decide.

The major reason was that...no one can truly decide when a baby in the womb is "truly human" or "truly conscious"......a slippery slope


-A point which I raised in the debate;
If a woman was kidnapped for 7 months and raped.....then, shew was rescued later with a 7 month plus pregnancy, shouldnt she have the right to get an abortion?

Deep Sight:

Honestly, I find it particularly depressing that anyone could suggest that a pregnancy which is the result of an incident of ra.pe should be kept. It is the height of barbarism, inhumanity and complete lack of empathy with fellow man. It is the most unchristian and most uncharitable suggestion I have ever come across in my life.

I say this as I vividly recall my armed-robbery experience last year, during which a newly engaged young lady was ra.ped by the armed robbers. If such were to result in pregnancy, I am appalled to think that some here would suggest or even insist that such a pregnancy should be kept by the traumatized couple. These same robbers murdered 4 people in cold blood that night, including two at the scene of the ra.pe.

Think again, Anony, think again.

May it never happen to you or one close to you before you are forced to understanding of other people's trauma.

Thank you, Deepsight

Anony....think hard

Logicboy03:



Agreed but there is a problem......there cant be a limit on when to abort....

Anony and I went to a debate in London about whether there should be a limited time for abortion. Most people there were for abortion but they were ready to leave the decision to the mother or to the state for a limited abortion. The woman or women should decide.

The major reason was that...no one can truly decide when a baby in the womb is "truly human" or "truly conscious"......a slippery slope


-A point which I raised in the debate;
If a woman was kidnapped for 7 months and raped.....then, shew was rescued later with a 7 month plus pregnancy, shouldnt she have the right to get an abortion?

This is a very good point, and I agree with you. However note that my principle on only very early abortion is simply my personal take, my personal principle: I force it on no one.

The reason I have this principle is because I have seen the remains of an advanced foetus ejected via abortion in a dingy bathroom in the University of Lagos years ago. The sight was enough to convince me that aborting such an advanced foetus is, for me, repugnant.

However you still make a good point with the 7 months example. None of us can claim to have been conscious in the earliest days after our birth: not to speak of whilst we were yet in the womb: in all truth it is virtually a time when we did not exist yet, as known in this world.

Logicboy03:


I attacked both......I showed him that he was not thinking about the mother when complaining about aborting the child.


You people hardly respond to reason....some abuse jars sense into you guys once in a while.........this is a life and death issue....Anony or one of you could be pastors or hold high position in churches and would have to advice women one day.......your christian "opinions" have already led to the depression of many women......


As for the abuse, I only told him what is necessary- put yourself in the molested woman's shoe- would you want your daughter to keep such a child?

I don't think you understand where he's coming from.
Logicboy, you seem to be looking at it from a single dimension. What I see here is you placing stigma/shame an abused person will receive over the life of a child. I don't see how this can be morally justified.
Are you suggesting that the avoidance of shame can be justified over the termination of the right to existence?

Van snickers:

What if, not aborting the Child will put the Mother's life at Risk. Of what use is it to keep the Child when it will lead only to the demise of both it and the Mother?

Morning Van,

Though what you put forth is a completely different scenario from what I intended...anyways, since it has to do with life, I will give you my thoughts on the matter...

I believe firmly that every life is precious and should be preserved...a Mother's life is precious, so too is the life of her child...

The doctors have to decide who between the child and the mother, who has a greater chance of survival and whether it is possible to save them both...

Abortion involves the deliberate termination of life...

Save the mum without wanting the death of the child and where possible save the child too. I do not support a deliberate killing of a child no matter what.

Reyginus: I don't think you understand where he's coming from.
Logicboy, you seem to be looking at it from a single dimension. What I see here is you placing stigma/shame an abused person will receive over the life of a child. I don't see how this can be morally justified.
Are you suggesting that the avoidance of shame can be justified over the termination of the right to existence?

lol.......women have run mad and maltreated or killed their young babies....

This is why counselling before abortion is needed .....to assess the mental health of the mother for motherhood and her options for abortion.

striktlymi:

Morning Van,

Though what you put forth is a completely different scenario from what I intended...anyways, since it has to do with life, I will give you my thoughts on the matter...

I believe firmly that every life is precious and should be preserved...a Mother's life is precious, so too is the life of her child...

The doctors have to decide who between the child and the mother, who has a greater chance of survival and whether it is possible to save them both...

Abortion involves the deliberate termination of life...

Save the mum without wanting the death of the child and where possible save the child too. I do not support a deliberate killing of a child no matter what.

There are cases in which both mother and child will die for some pregnancies
There are cases where one must die- either mother or child


Keep saying no to abortion. Karma will find you
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-woman-dies-after-abortion-refusal

Logicboy03:


There are cases in which both mother and child will die for some pregnancies
There are cases where one must die- either mother or child


Keep saying no to abortion. Karma will find you
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/ireland-woman-dies-after-abortion-refusal

I believe my post was very clear...

Logicboy03:



is the baby being aborted just because of the father or that such a baby would be too traumatic for a sanne woman to raise?


One dimensional thinking when life is in 3d

Should your daughter be molested, I would like to see yoyr stance then.......heartless dolt

Is the baby in the womb human?

As long as the baby is human, rape is not an excuse to kill it. Emotional answers do not count here.

Deep Sight:

This is a very good point, and I agree with you. However note that my principle on only very early abortion is simply my personal take, my personal principle: I force it on no one.

The reason I have this principle is because I have seen the remains of an advanced foetus ejected via abortion in a dingy bathroom in the University of Lagos years ago. The sight was enough to convince me that aborting such an advanced foetus is, for me, repugnant.

However you still make a good point with the 7 months example. None of us can claim to have been conscious in the earliest days after our birth: not to speak of whilst we were yet in the womb: in all truth it is virtually a time when we did not exist yet, as known in this world.

Sad....this Nigeria!

baby in the bathroom? Kai

Logicboy03:
Sad....this Nigeria!

baby in the bathroom? Kai

Nah nah nah, it is not sad at all. According to you, it is not an individual baby.

It is only a part of the woman's body she decided to leave in the bathroom. Nobody's your business

Mr anony:
Nah nah nah, it is not sad at all. According to you, it is not an individual baby.

It is only a part of the woman's body she decided to leave in the bathroom. Nobody's your business

I think he is referring to the unprofessional and quack methods obvious in the scenario.

By the way, you made me transcribe a long telephone conversation and email it to you for nothing?

Logicboy03:


lol.......women have run mad and maltreated or killed their young babies....

This is why counselling before abortion is needed .....to assess the mental health of the mother for motherhood and her options for abortion.

How does this answer my question? I'd like you to be sincere here.

Logicboy03:


Sad....this Nigeria!

baby in the bathroom? Kai

so u do know what is sad?

Reyginus: How does this answer my question? I'd like you to be sincere here.

Sincerity?

Ok, let us see how SINCERE YOU CAN BE - - ->

1. Your wife is ra.ped by armed robbers in your presence and they shoot two people dead right there during the act (this is not imagination, i witnessed this happen to a young lady live last year during my ordeal with armed robbers). Your wife becomes pregnant from the incident. Will you keep the baby?

2. Your wife is ra.ped by your father, son, or brother and becomes pregnant thereby. Will you keep the baby?

3. Your wife has medical issues and will die as a result of keeping the baby. Will you keep the baby?

4. You are so poor that you cannot even afford to feed yourself each day and are starving. You have no house, you are homeless, you cannot eat, you have no job and no means of income but you have a wife and you both live under a bridge. One night, you seek comfort in each other's arms. You have se.x with your wife and she gets pregnant. Will you keep the baby?

Sincerity please.

Mr anony:
Is the baby in the womb human?

As long as the baby is human, rape is not an excuse to kill it. Emotional answers do not count here.

A woman and her ex husband had tried unsuccessfully for a child for years and the doctors told her that her chances of conceiving are very low. In fact the husband has now left her due to childnessnes. One day she is ra.ped and a few weeks later she is told that she is pregnant.

To abort or not to abort?

Enigma:

A woman and her ex husband had tried unsuccessfully for a child for years and the doctors told her that her chances of conceiving are very low. In fact the husband has now left her due to childnessnes. One day she is raped and a few weeks later she is told that she is pregnant.

To abort or not to abort.

OL boy, i know you hate to hear from me, but I must say something to the house on this important point. I say this because again, I have personally interacted with women who feel this way: namely that after a long period of not being able to conceive, if such a thing were to happen, they would happily keep the child. Indeed, I have a very close female friend who was married for 14 years and had no child: and shortly after, a "mistake" with another man left her with Child. . . a beautiful young boy who she of course did not abort.

Now the distinction I wish to make to all and sundry is this: the woman is free to keep the child if she (and her partner) so wish, but particularly in the circumstances I outlined, no one can hold them morally indebted if they choose not to keep a child conceived in such scenarios.

Deep Sight:

Sincerity?

Ok, let us see how SINCERE YOU CAN BE - - ->

1. Your wife is ra.ped by armed robbers in your presence and they shoot two people dead right there during the act (this is not imagination, i witnessed this happen to a young lady live last year during my ordeal with armed robbers). Your wife becomes pregnant from the incident. Will you keep the baby?

2. Your wife is ra.ped by your father, son, or brother and becomes pregnant thereby. Will you keep the baby?

3. Your wife has medical issues and will die as a result of keeping the baby. Will you keep the baby?

4. You are so poor that you cannot even afford to feed yourself each day and are starving. You have no house, you are homeless, you cannot eat, you have no job and no means of income but you have a wife and you both live under a bridge. One night, you seek comfort in each other's arms. You have se.x with your wife and she gets pregnant. Will you keep the baby?

Sincerity please.

You're elevating emotions above reason here.
To answer your question, irrespective of whether I decide to accept the child or reject it based on my emotions, the principal thing is that it is utterly wrong to terminate the life.
Don't you think it doesn't matter how I take it so long as their is a proper definition between what is wrong and good?

Logicboy03:
is the baby being aborted just because of the father or that such a baby would be too traumatic for a sanne woman to raise?


One dimensional thinking when life is in 3d

Should your daughter be molested, I would like to see your stance then.......heartless dolt

thelonelyshadow: At least LogicBoy has some logic (see what i did there ) Why should the woman suffer for the crime of the man

Everyone please forgive me for what I am about to do next....

@Logicboy and thelonelyshadow,

[size=16pt]Are you really saying that I am a "heartless dolt" for saying that it is wrong for a woman to do this:[/size]

[img]http://amandakmelson.files./2013/02/aborted-baby-2.jpg[/img]


[size=16pt]Because this:[/size]


[size=16pt]...will remind her of the rape?[/size]


Is this really your idea of 3 dimensional thinking? Judge for yourselves who the real heartless dolt is.

Deep Sight:
Honestly, I find it particularly depressing that anyone could suggest that a pregnancy which is the result of an incident of ra.pe should be kept. It is the height of barbarism, inhumanity and complete lack of empathy with fellow man. It is the most unchristian and most uncharitable suggestion I have ever come across in my life.

I say this as I vividly recall my armed-robbery experience last year, during which a newly engaged young lady was ra.ped by the armed robbers. If such were to result in pregnancy, I am appalled to think that some here would suggest or even insist that such a pregnancy should be kept by the traumatized couple. These same robbers murdered 4 people in cold blood that night, including two at the scene of the ra.pe.


Think again, Anony, think again.

May it never happen to you or one close to you before you are forced to understanding of other people's trauma.

My dear friend, I have never said that rape is not traumatic. I have only asked; Is that baby in the womb a human being? Does one person's traumatic experience justify the killing of another human being?

Deep Sight:

I think he is referring to the unprofessional and quack methods obvious in the scenario.

By the way, you made me transcribe a long telephone conversation and email it to you for nothing?

My oga no vex, It was really wrong of me not to reply you. What happened was that I went cold turkey on Nairaland and everything related to it. I was getting dangerously addicted. Please forgive me.

You can start a thread on that topic here. I believe you understood my point correctly, I was only going to edit it a bit for the benefit of those to whom my point might not be clear but then I realized that some people will always deliberately misunderstand me by default so there's no real need to bother.

Feel free to post it any time so that we can discuss. By the way, I've been pondering some stuff in my mind I'd like to run through with you.

Once again, I render my sincerest apologies

Enigma:

A woman and her ex husband had tried unsuccessfully for a child for years and the doctors told her that her chances of conceiving are very low. In fact the husband has now left her due to childnessnes. One day she is ra.ped and a few weeks later she is told that she is pregnant.

To abort or not to abort?

Not to abort. The baby is a unique human being and not the property of the parent

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1043041/I-raped-left-pregnant-16--I-love-baby.html

'Everyone, save for mum, thought I should have an abortion,' she says. 'My dad even made an appointment at the clinic, and they showed me the little blob on the scan, I presume, to convince me that it was just a mass of cells and the whole thing would be over quickly.

'But I couldn't go through with it. 'At school, my friends - most of whom didn't even know about the rape - couldn't understand why anyone my age would want to have a baby rather than an abortion.

'And the few I did tell about what had happened were even more horrified that I would want to go through with the birth.

'But I did. And I don't regret it for a moment.

Every time I look at Phoebe, I know I made the right decision. I never wanted to end my baby's life just because of how she came to be.'

To most women, the thought of carrying their rapist's baby would be unthinkable. Elizabeth says that she, too, would once have shared that view.

To her amazement, though, the first sight of that 'mass of cells' on the screen triggered waves of tenderness rather than revulsion.

'It was surprisingly easy to love her as she grew inside me, but I have to admit I was scared my feelings would change when I saw her.

'During the pregnancy, I had nightmares about the attack and I worried myself sick that seeing my baby would immediately bring on flashbacks of that night.

'But from the moment mum put her on my breast, there was no question we belonged together.

'She did not remind me of that night, and I knew then that having her was more important than what had happened.'

Emotional boolshyt abi? (Note that most abortions do not even look like that)


You'll love my simple edit

Mr anony:



Everyone please forgive me for what I am about to do next....

@Logicboy and thelonelyshadow,

[size=16pt]Are you really saying that I am a "heartless dolt" for saying that it is wrong for a woman to do this:[/size]

[img]http://amandakmelson.files./2013/02/aborted-baby-2.jpg[/img]


[size=16pt]Because this:[/size]


[size=16pt]...will remind her of the rape?[/size]


Is this really your idea of 3 dimensional thinking? Judge for yourselves who the real heartless dolt is.
=============================


Anony prefers this, after surviving abortion

Logicboy03:
Emotional boolshyt abi?

You started the emotional argument when you called me heartless.

(Note that most abortions do not even look like that)

Care to show us a picture of what most aborted babies look like?

You'll love my simple edit

Actually, your strawman was unimpressive.

Anony prefers this, after surviving abortion

Liar! where did I say that?