davidylan:

So exactly what does the big bang say? What exploded from what?

The universe exploded from an infinitely dense singularity.

davidylan:

this is quite a profound statement, i wonder if the godless would read it.

Not profound. Flawed. Since we know the processes behind birth and death. The are better arguments for God's existence.

Uyi Iredia:

Not profound. Flawed. Since we know the processes behind birth and death. The are better arguments for God's existence.

Her statement is profound really.. Why do we die? Even apart from that, there are other questions like, Why is everything in this world so organised? Every single thing follows a specific pattern, It takes 9Months for a baby to be born, it takes 2-3 years for a baby to be able to speak, each day has exactly 24Hours, Each month has either 30,31 or 29 days, why do you have to sleep at night?? Children aged 13-19 are always rebellious, water boils at 100 degrees...I've got so many examples. you know, stuffs like that, really makes me wonder if chance could have caused all these.. If chance or let me say 'Big bang' 'evolution' were true, I honestly don't think the world would be this organised.. According to I.Joan, since you're the god of your own life, you're supposed to determine when you live or die..

Uyi Iredia:

The universe exploded from an infinitely dense singularity.

This is hilarious! #Hahahahaahaha

maclatunji:

This is hilarious! #Hahahahaahaha

To the best of my knowledge that's what the Big Bang theory posits. It appears you find it funny because you think I believe it. I don't. I don't know enough about it yet and I'm skeptical of it based on the little I know.

Uyi Iredia:

To the best of my knowledge that's what the Big Bang theory posits. It appears you find it funny because you think I believe it. I don't. I don't know enough about it yet and I'm skeptical of it based on the little I know.

What are you ? an atheist? an agnostic? a deist? or what?

Misunderstood_G: Her statement is profound really.. Why do we die? Even apart from that, there are other questions like, Why is everything in this world so organised? Every single thing follows a specific pattern, It takes 9Months for a baby to be born, it takes 2-3 years for a baby to be able to speak, each day has exactly 24Hours, Each month has either 30,31 or 29 days, why do you have to sleep at night?? Children aged 13-19 are always rebellious, water boils at 100 degrees...I've got so many examples. you know, stuffs like that, really makes me wonder if chance could have caused all these.. If chance or let me say 'Big bang' 'evolution' were true, I honestly don't think the world would be this organised.. According to I.Joan, since you're the god of your own life, you're supposed to determine when you live or die..

Its inference is flawed. The inference is flawed because we know the processes behind birth and death. You shouldn't therefore claim a gap and presume a superior force is behind all life. A better way of presenting it is the design argument by Aquinas. The questions her statement addresses or raises is what is truly profound.

Uyi Iredia:

Its inference is flawed. The inference is flawed because we know the processes behind birth and death. You shouldn't therefore claim a gap and presume a superior force is behind all life. A better way of presenting it is the design argument by Aquinas. The questions her statement addresses or raises is what is truly profound.

What influences these 'processes' of birth and death?

I.Joan:


What are you ? an atheist? an agnostic? a deist? or what?

A former professing Christian tending towards deism. However my position is tentative with respect to my continuing inquiry into the spectrum of religious and philosophical debates.

I.Joan:


What influences these 'processes' of birth and death?

Environmental factors e.g temperature, food intake, humidity etc. If however you mean how they came about I'd say they must have been created (or in other words designed).

I.Joan:
One would think as precise and perfect the big bang was, it would have made provision for ETERNAL LIFE but No! we all are still gonna die. It is better to make DEATH your god than to foolishly say their is no God.

Cool down ! Abeg ! Atheists are human beings and I think some accept the philosophy in a sincere quest for truth. It took a lot of reading before I got used to them. The funny thing YOU MUST KNOW is that some people who say they are atheists actually believe in God they way deists describe Him. They just say they are atheists because they do not believe in the Christian God (deists and some pagans don't too - my Dad was a former pagan very much like PAGAN 9JA).

Uyi Iredia:

The universe exploded from an infinitely dense singularity.

Speculative at best... we do not know such a thing happened.

Uyi Iredia:

Not profound. Flawed. Since we know the processes behind birth and death. The are better arguments for God's existence.

I'm not sure you understood her point. Knowing the process behind birth and death does not grant you the power to influence when, where and how you as an individual will be born or die.

Uyi Iredia:

Its inference is flawed. The inference is flawed because we know the processes behind birth and death. You shouldn't therefore claim a gap and presume a superior force is behind all life. A better way of presenting it is the design argument by Aquinas. The questions her statement addresses or raises is what is truly profound.

It appears you have arrived at the conclusion that her inference is flawed and are just clutching at straws to justify that point of view.

At the pain of repeating myself ad nauseum... you did not understand i.joan's post. She was not talking about understanding the process behind. Yes we understand the process behind birth but can a child influence who his parents will be or when he will be born? Where you responsible for selecting your parents?

Uyi Iredia:

Environmental factors e.g temperature, food intake, humidity etc. If however you mean how they came about I'd say they must have been created (or in other words designed).

Ridiculous. So temperature is how you selected where you were born?

Misunderstood_G: Her statement is profound really.. Why do we die? Even apart from that, there are other questions like, Why is everything in this world so organised? Every single thing follows a specific pattern, It takes 9Months for a baby to be born, it takes 2-3 years for a baby to be able to speak, each day has exactly 24Hours, Each month has either 30,31 or 29 days, why do you have to sleep at night?? Children aged 13-19 are always rebellious, water boils at 100 degrees...I've got so many examples. you know, stuffs like that, really makes me wonder if chance could have caused all these.. If chance or let me say 'Big bang' 'evolution' were true, I honestly don't think the world would be this organised.. According to I.Joan, since you're the god of your own life, you're supposed to determine when you live or die..

What a joke... honestly, there are much better examples...

Uyi Iredia:

Cool down ! Abeg ! Atheists are human beings and I think some accept the philosophy in a sincere quest for truth. It took a lot of reading before I got used to them. The funny thing YOU MUST KNOW is that some people who say they are atheists actually believe in God they way deists describe Him. They just say they are atheists because they do not believe in the Christian God (deists and some pagans don't too - my Dad was a former pagan very much like PAGAN 9JA).

Do deists believe in a God that interacts with the world or seeks a relationship with his creation? Is the deist's God only responsible for the creation of the universe?

I.Joan:


Why shouldn't you live forever? Who or what is stopping that? You are the god of your life right! You should decide when your life starts or end but somehow that decision is not in your hands.
As humans, the only key decision we get to make is how we will live our life. We don't get to decide when it starts or end.
The fact that we can't decide when(how or where) we are born or when(how or where) we die shows there is a superior force making these decisions.

You can't refer to a 'you' before birth. Except you believe in souls and the like...

@2nd bolded: Suicide?

davidylan:

Speculative at best... we do not know such a thing happened.

Agreed.

davidylan:

I'm not sure you understood her point. Knowing the process behind birth and death does not grant you the power to influence when, where and how you as an individual will be born or die.

Where you are born is determined by your parents. I'm sure you consult embryology articles as to how you are born. Death is the cessation of your body's processes. Cyanide and sodium pentothal (I think) can induce it. Not to mention other causes you and I know. That said.

I know we lack control over our birth and (to some extent) death BUT she quickly jumped to say that it was evidence of a superior force. That was my gripe. I have just mentioned some of the processes and they are not a 'superior force' I see where she's going but the logic is flawed. I suggested the design argument by Aquinas as an alternative.

davidylan:

Ridiculous. So temperature is how you selected where you were born?

Read well. She asked what influences birth or death. High temperatures kill. An optimum temperature is required for a developing fetus.

davidylan:

It appears you have arrived at the conclusion that her inference is flawed and are just clutching at straws to justify that point of view.

At the pain of repeating myself ad nauseum... you did not understand i.joan's post. She was not talking about understanding the process behind. Yes we understand the process behind birth but can a child influence who his parents will be or when he will be born? Where you responsible for selecting your parents?

I got your point. I see where the mistake was made. She was talking about the INABILITY TO DECIDE the manner and process of birth and death and inferred a superior force. Brilliant.

I thought she talking about THE MANNER AND PROCESS of birth and death and inferred a superior force. My mistake.

musKeeto:

You can't refer to a 'you' before birth. Except you believe in souls and the like...

@2nd bolded: Suicide?

You can. Before birth you were a fetus in the womb.

Uyi Iredia:

You can. Before birth you were a fetus in the womb.

lol.

And the other question on deism?

musKeeto:

Do deists believe in a God that interacts with the world or seeks a relationship with his creation?

Some deists do (in a manner different from Christians), some don't. But classical deists (the ones who first expounded the philosophy) didn't as far as I know. There are different shades of deists. Check it out on Wikipedia.

musKeeto:
Is the deist's God only responsible for the creation of the universe?

For the most part yes, deists aim to use logic to infer God and there is a limit to what we can infer given what is known.

The deism I'm contemplating an inference of God from the known facts of complexity in life and the natural principles (as espoused by laws that explain phenomena). I suppose given the known fact that is only intelligence that can make or contemplate these things so it follows that intelligence is required to make these things. That the basic inference.

I extrapolate. It must be non-contingent because it is to be used as an explanation for all things that exhibit contingency. Must be infinite because finite things are known to be contingent. Morally neutral since I see much good and much evil in the world. That's all.

DeepSight's deism (like some deists) comes close to Christianity. Maybe he would explain his beliefs here but as far as I can see he . . .

- believes God is love
- believes Jesus was a great moral teacher
- believes in praying to God
- believes in a non-material spirit

. . . if this isn't 'pseudo-Christianity' I wonder what it is.

davidylan:

So exactly what does the big bang say? What exploded from what?

It doesnt even say anything exploded from anything. . .Just that the universe began to expand from a singularity. . .A singularity is not nothing. . .What the singularity is , scientist claim they do not know yet. . .

musKeeto:



What a joke... honestly, there are much better examples...

LOOOOL
I was just giving simple examples, because i find it weird, that the world is so damn organised...
Do you have any better example(s)

Uyi Iredia:

Some deists do (in a manner different from Christians), some don't. But classical deists (the ones who first expounded the philosophy) didn't as far as I know. There are different shades of deists. Check it out on Wikipedia.



For the most part yes, deists aim to use logic to infer God and there is a limit to what we can infer given what is known.

The deism I'm contemplating an inference of God from the known facts of complexity in life and the natural principles (as espoused by laws that explain phenomena). I suppose given the known fact that is only intelligence that can make or contemplate these things so it follows that intelligence is required to make these things. That the basic inference.

I extrapolate. It must be non-contingent because it is to be used as an explanation for all things that exhibit contingency. Must be infinite because finite things are known to be contingent. Morally neutral since I see much good and much evil in the world. That's all.

DeepSight's deism (like some deists) comes close to Christianity. Maybe he would explain his beliefs here but as far as I can see he . . .

- believes God is love
- believes Jesus was a great moral teacher
- believes in praying to God
- believes in a non-material spirit

. . . if this isn't 'pseudo-Christianity' I wonder what it is.

Would you agree that some deists are close to atheism, so close that it might even be difficult to tell the difference?

I'd say on the belief spectrum, I'm somewhere between atheism and deism currently.

Atheism - Cos if God is limited to what the different religions portray, I'm quite sure they're all imaginations of men.

Deism - The origin of consciousness, how the material came become conscious. For all we know, there might be a source.

Anyways, I'll be following your posts from now on..
I could pick up a few lessons.

All deists believe in a natural God, consistent with the natural world.

Kay 17: All deists believe in a natural God, consistent with the natural world.

Some make it sound like he's just responsible for creation.

musKeeto:
Some make it sound like he's just responsible for creation.

Muskeeto, i think say you be atheist before ooo.. or you don convert go agnostic/Deism?

musKeeto:

Would you agree that some deists are close to atheism, so close that it might even be difficult to tell the difference?

I'd say on the belief spectrum, I'm somewhere between atheism and deism currently.

Atheism - Cos if God is limited to what the different religions portray, I'm quite sure they're all imaginations of men.

Deism - The origin of consciousness, how the material came become conscious. For all we know, there might be a source.

Anyways, I'll be following your posts from now on..
I could pick up a few lessons.

Yes. There's the 'Agnostic Deism' of Sagamite for example.