Reyginus:
Is something wrong with your eyes? Lol. These people. You define Religion as an institution of dogmas relating to the Divine and I ask if ATRs relate with the Divine? What's so hard here to answer?

you don't get it. you claim to have a question based on the earlier definition of religion. ..but you only pick one part and throw the other part away making your question not at all based on the definition but from your own head

what made you not ask; is ATR a set of dogmas?

but I'll answer just to see where you're going with this;
of course What you call ATR relates with the divine

Just like the Greek society had everything relating to the Divine, only certain cult members practiced religion and not the entire society

macof:


you don't get it. you claim to have a question based on the earlier definition of religion. ..but you only pick one part and throw the other part away making your question not at all based on the definition but from your own head

what made you not ask; is ATR a set of dogmas?

but I'll answer just to see where you're going with this;
of course What you call ATR relates with the divine

Just like the Greek society had everything relating to the Divine, only certain cult members practiced religion and not the entire society

Very good. We'd get there. Does ATR deal with beliefs?

Reyginus:
Very good. We'd get there. Does ATR deal with beliefs?

Yes because ATR is everything african which includes the beliefs of the African people. And how does dealing with beliefs make anything a religion?

do you really want to say now that everything that holds a "belief" is a religion?

macof:



Yes because ATR is everything african which includes the beliefs of the African people. And how does dealing with beliefs make anything a religion?

do you really want to say now that everything that holds a "belief" is a religion?

Don't rush it. Is a belief a dogma or not?

Reyginus:
Don't rush it. Is a belief a dogma or not?

no it is not. .but a dogma is a belief

macof:


no it is not. .but a dogma is a belief

Wow! So how come your definition agrees with your explanations of the contents but you still imply it is not religion?

macof:


an orisa is a being that is created special
the word has been used to refer to kings, great personalities, great ancestors, lesser Gods ( those beneath the Creator - Olodumare )
veneration doesn't have to be about religiosity my friend. Spirituality in africa is by Awe, not faith
or dogmatic belief that we have in religion

Hmmm so you're really serious with this thing. Lol very very funny. I don't think you know what religion means because if you do you wouldn't have this mindset. How can you say that Africans that worship and venerate idols are not religious??

dblackninja:

Hmmm so you're really serious with this thing. Lol very very funny. I don't think you know what religion means because if you do you wouldn't have this mindset. How can you say that Africans that worship and venerate idols are not religious??

it's probably only funny because you don't know a thing about the topic you are trying to discuss

Africans don't worship and venerate idols. .. look at the nonsense you just said and you think you know so much about African societies.
it is best to learn before you form an opinion

Reyginus:
Wow! So how come your definition agrees with your explanations of the contents but you still imply it is not religion?

in what way does my definition agree with it? pls go back and understand every word in my posts

macof:

it's probably only funny because you don't know a thing about the topic you are trying to discuss

Africans don't worship and venerate idols . .. look at the nonsense you just said and you think you know so much about African societies.
it is best to learn before you form an opinion

Hehehe Wow I don't know this will reach this stage, but let's continue chaa.
Now let's be clear on some things.. I believe we know what the term Idol means...

-What do Africans do exactly with idols?
-Do they have idols at all?

dblackninja:

Hehehe Wow I don't know this will reach this stage, but let's continue chaa.
Now let's be clear on some things.. I believe we know what the term Idol means...

-What do Africans do exactly with idols?
-Do they have idols at all?

idols are representative objects used for veneration and adornment
an Idol of Sango( Ere Sango) is not worshipped or venerated but used in veneration as a representative Image of the Orisa. it is the Orisa that is venerated not the Ere

.

macof:



idols are representative objects used for veneration and adornment
an Idol of Sango( Ere Sango) is not worshipped or venerated but used in veneration as a representative Image of the Orisa. it is the Orisa that is venerated not the Ere

Am So confused, If that thing carved or molded is a representative image of Orisa, and that carved thing is neither venerated nor worshipped but used in veneration of that same carved thing (which represents Orisa).. I don't quite follow.

In one scene you're saying its neither worshipped nor venerated
In another scene, you're saying the same thing is used to venerate itself

dblackninja:

Am So confused, If that thing carved or molded is a representative image of Orisa, and that carved thing is neither venerated nor worshipped but used in veneration of that same carved thing (which represents Orisa).. I don't quite follow.

In one scene you're saying its neither worshipped nor venerated
In another scene, you're saying the same thing is used to venerate itself

Let's move away from isese and talk about catholicism then

in catholic homes and churches there are images of Mary, Jesus, angels and saints. .. are these images being worshipped when prayers are done in front of them?

macof:

Let's move away from isese and talk about catholicism then

in catholic homes and churches there are images of Mary, Jesus, angels and saints. .. are these images being worshipped when prayers are done in front of them?

Okay Catholics deceive themselves by saying that those idols are not worshipped but used for intercession. They are just using it as an excuse to justify what they are doing-- (was once one of them and can prove anytime any day that they don't worship it..lol )

Imagine some one praying in front of the idol mary today and tomorrow claims that the idol wept and cured him/her...And someone at the back will be saying it isn't worship..that's ridiculous at best

Maybe you can peep into any dictionary you have or Wikipedia and tell me what they say about worship.

dblackninja:

Okay Catholics deceive themselves by saying that those idols are not worshipped but used for intercession. They are just using it as an excuse to justify what they are doing-- (was once one of them and can prove anytime any day that they don't worship it..lol )

Imagine some one praying in front of the idol mary today and tomorrow claims that the idol wept and cured him/her...And someone at the back will be saying it isn't worship..that's ridiculous at best

Maybe you can peep into any dictionary you have or Wikipedia and tell me what they say about worship.

ok

macof:

ok

People sef

Reyginus:
I hope this argument doesn't go like the fruitless one I had with FOLYKAZE last time where he illogically tried to remove Christianity from Spirituality even when it's obvious he doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the terms?

My question was/is simply what is divine? Is ATR divine? Is this very hard to understand or answer you are trying to be mischievous like your brother in ATR tried last time? A simple yes or no will do. Go ahead and stop trying to confuse yourself.

Yanga sleep trouble con wake am. Na palava you dey find shey?

I have shown beyond reasonable doubt the difference between religion and spirituality. You can simply read up those post to further undestand this differences. This will help you deep confusion on the subject.

The question you are asking macof is irrelevant. He has stated bodly that religion is an "institution". While ATR is related to divinity, it is not an institution where obligation, doctrine, codes and ethic are instilled on those who belong in the circle.

dblackninja:

Am So confused, If that thing carved or molded is a representative image of Orisa, and that carved thing is neither venerated nor worshipped but used in veneration of that same carved thing (which represents Orisa).. I don't quite follow.

In one scene you're saying its neither worshipped nor venerated
In another scene, you're saying the same thing is used to venerate itself

An image used to represent an entity attracts the same worth as what it is representing. Just like a national flag is known as a national identity or representation, it is a mere piece of clothing and painting put carries the same respect, worth and value by those who are patriots to a nationality.

A soldier or public servant will salute a national flag. Same way an Aborisha will bow before his artifact. However, that soldier is not serving the flag but what the flag represent. This is the same way Aborisha is not serving artifact but what the artifact represent which are Gods.

dblackninja:

Okay Catholics deceive themselves by saying that those idols are not worshipped but used for intercession. They are just using it as an excuse to justify what they are doing-- (was once one of them and can prove anytime any day that they don't worship it..lol )

Imagine some one praying in front of the idol mary today and tomorrow claims that the idol wept and cured him/her...And someone at the back will be saying it isn't worship..that's ridiculous at best

Maybe you can peep into any dictionary you have or Wikipedia and tell me what they say about worship.

Making or carving an image of divines is not a sin as the bible even instructed Isrealites of old to carve two golden statues of cherubim. It ws same God who asked moses to put a carve image of snake which people will look up to. Isnt that idolatry?

dblackninja:

People sef

you just have your mind set on having your own perception. you are free, not like I can force you out of your ignorance

FOLYKAZE:


An image used to represent an entity attracts the same worth as what it is representing. Just like a national flag is known as a national identity or representation, it is a mere piece of clothing and painting put carries the same respect, worth and value by those who are patriots to a nationality.

A soldier or public servant will salute a national flag. Same way an Aborisha will bow before his artifact. However, that soldier is not serving the flag but what the flag represent. This is the same way Aborisha is not serving artifact but what the artifact represent which are Gods.

I like how you construed this..much better and I know the angle you're going.
Now let's check this. If something is of equal worth with what it represents, it means that the thing is exactly the same thing with the thing it is representing (figuratively speaking) --Lol hope am not singing.

Just like a world cup is worth a particular amount of money (no more, no less)
A Nigerian flag representing Nigerian.
An Aborisha idol worthing the same thing it represents.
The ash of someone's father representing the same man and if it's destroyed, to the person, it will be like killing that his father all over again.
No world cup, then there won't be any money for it.
No mace (which represents authority) in the national assembly, then it's party things.
No Aborisha idol, then whatever it represents is terminated immediately.

All these things can be revered and worshipped vice versa as far as they are of exactly the same worth.
Serving is another thing altogether that is also a choice, and doesn't go with respect/revere/worship.

FOLYKAZE:


Making or carving an image of divines is not a sin as the bible even instructed Isrealites of old to carve two golden statues of cherubim. It ws same God who asked moses to put a carve image of snake which people will look up to. Isnt that idolatry?

Wow are you a Catholic? Those scenarios among other verses never fail me since time immemorial whenever am in support of the idols they worship.
Now let's see:
Well I believe that you are conceptualising sin based on some religious laws, though I didn't talk of sin but I can answer you out rightly that it's not a sin because it was an instruction given to them by their moral giver.
Same with that of moses. The snake in a sense is representing/equals healing. Look at snake and be healed. Don't look, then you won't be healed. Believe that it's god that heals and don't look--then Satan will have mercy on your soul (Means you won't be healed as well).

Are catholics idolaters...YES. What ever idol they mould represents what it's meant for, Not sango or another thing, for they don't mould idols representing sango. And those idols are revered and worshipped and not meant for decoration (You can see them genuflecting, bowing down to among other things in front of those idols).
I still fail to see how those scenarios extricate idols from worship in terms of African spirituality as you would like to term it. And
Since you used the action of the biblical god, can you tell me why he becomes angry if the Isrealites begin to worship other idols?

macof:


you just have your mind set on having your own perception. you are free, not like I can force you out of your ignorance

Very funny guy
Poor defence for a claim anyway.

dblackninja:


Wow are you a Catholic? Those scenarios among other verses never fail me since time immemorial whenever am in support of the idols they worship.
Now let's see:
Well I believe that you are conceptualising sin based on some religious laws, though I didn't talk of sin but I can answer you out rightly that it's not a sin because it was an instruction given to them by their moral giver.
Same with that of moses. The snake in a sense is representing/equals healing. Look at snake and be healed. Don't look, then you won't be healed. Believe that it's god that heals and don't look--then Satan will have mercy on your soul (Means you won't be healed as wel).

Are catholics idolaters...YES. What ever idol they mould represents what it's meant for, Not sango or another thing, for they don't mould idols representing sango. And those idols are revered and worshipped and not meant for decoration (You can see them genuflecting, bowing down to among other things in front of those idols).
I still fail to see how those scenarios extricate idols from worship in terms of African spirituality as you would like to term it. And
Since you used the action of the biblical god, can you tell me why he becomes angry if the Isrealites begin to worship other idols?

How do you define worship?

Worship simply is acknowledging the worth of something or someone.

The bible says give to Ceasar what belong to Ceasar and give to God what belongs to God. The bible encourage respect for the authority of the land. If you are giving to Ceasar, you are acknowledging the worth of Ceasar and as well worshipping it.

FOLYKAZE:


How do you define worship?

Worship simply is acknowledging the worth of something or someone.

The bible says give to Ceasar what belong to Ceasar and give to God what belongs to God. The bible encourage respect for the authority of the land. If you are giving to Ceasar, you are acknowledging the worth of Ceasar and as well worshipping it.

No no no not just acknowledgement, you can use the terms reverence and adoration to explain it. Worship is much deeper than acknowledgement for the later is simply admitting that this this this is or has this this this.

Now do Africans worship idols?

macof:


in what way does my definition agree with it? pls go back and understand every word in my posts

What's this? In what way? Your definition says Religion is a set of dogmas relating to the divine. Belief is a dogma and you accept your faith relates with the divine. What else can it be?

FOLYKAZE:


Yanga sleep trouble con wake am. Na palava you dey find shey?

I have shown beyond reasonable doubt the difference between religion and spirituality. You can simply read up those post to further undestand this differences. This will help you deep confusion on the subject.

The question you are asking macof is irrelevant. He has stated bodly that religion is an "institution". While ATR is related to divinity, it is not an institution where obligation, doctrine, codes and ethic are instilled on those who belong in the circle.

No. Institution? Where please? You are redefining it for him? Someone says Religion is a set of dogmas relating to the divine and he accepts that his faith fits into these two but it's not Religion. Is this logic only within ATR members?

dblackninja:

No no no not just acknowledgement, you can use the terms reverence and adoration to explain it. Worship is much deeper than acknowledgement for the later is simply admitting that this this this is or has this this this this.

Now do Africans worship idols?

Adoration simply me deep love, strong admiration, respect and devotion to/for something and someone.

Reverence is deep respect.

How do you show love and respect one without acknowledging the worth of that person? The act of showing love to something is equivalent to acknowledging the worth. When you adore, respect and show much love to someone, you are worshipping it.

Note, I didnt say simply acknowledgment but acknowledgment of worth of something.

And Yes, Africans worship Idols. Just like Christians worship God through Jesus