khattab02: I am not saying. But if any thing happens, it has to be in accordance with the correct teachings of Islam that is why we have the authentics sources. No well learnered muslim will advice you to go and kill an innocent person. Otherwise he has to present his proofs and reasons in accordance with the true teachings of Islam and it very easy to know whether he is right or wrong.

Okay. What does Islam teach when a Muslim leaves Islam, what is to happen to him as taught by the Quran and Hadiths?

khattab02: talking about burning of churches before boko haram, i have told u, u can't used the actions of some ignorant muslims as a yard stick for Islam rather the other way round. A true muslim will never do such acts because the Qur'an and the ahadith cleary speak against it, that why I showed you 5:32 and there are many more from the Ahadith.

Guy you are so funny,if you calling some muslim ignorant for burning churches and killing in the name of your god,are u saying that majority of the muslims you have in islamic countries are not muslims? Saudi,iraq,iran,pakistan,egypt etc?
They are the ones practising the real message of islam!

alexis:

Then you should read both very well:

Surah 9:5 === And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful

Surah 9:29 == Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

So, who is taking the above verses out of context?

Hmmmm impressive, well quoted and correct. But out context. I will give you the context but before i give you the context let me point some worth noting. This complete qur'an we have now was not given to the prophet(SAW) as a complete book, it was given to him as a revelation. It was revealed revelation after revelation, 13 years in Makkah and 10 years in Madinah and it has to do with the situation on ground. There are numerous passages in the Qur'an commanding Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in such terms as 'say', 'remind', 'inform', 'and 'your Lord say', so Muhammad (SAW) does not speak on his own desire or authority, it is no less than a Revelation sent down to him Qur'an 53:3-4. And here comes the context.....

There was a peace treaty between the muslims and the polytheist of Makkah and this peace treaty was actually broken by the polytheist of Makkah, by the time Allah subhanawataala reaches verse 5, he is giving an ultimatum to the polytheist to put tins straight in four months otherwise there will be a declaration of war. So in the battle field, Allah is giving the muslims an ultimatum to kill the polytheist wherever you find them, this is in context of battle field. If today there is a war between America and vietnam and the American president says to the American soldiers' wherever you find the vietnami soldiers you kill him' this is in context of war. But if I quote him out of context when there is no war, I will make him sound like a butcher and that will be devilish. Almost all the verses that speaks about fighting in the battle field, the next verse that follows is PEACE is BETTER. EG surah 9:6 says'if the polytheist wants peace,don't just let him go, escort him to a place of security so that he may hear the word of Allah' because Islam is the religion of peace.

alexis:

Dude, you are neither confirming nor denying In between, which Hadith do you confirm as authoritative and authentic, there are several Hadiths i.e. Al-Bukhari? Sahih Muslim? etc

Al-bukhari and Muslim are most authentic.

What many of you fail to realise about the verses of fight is that, those verses came in context of what the muslims were facing in Makkah during the early years of revelations. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions were forcefully driven out of Makkah and many were tortured and matryed; they were still being pursued to their new settlement with the main aim of totally getting ride of them. The closeness of the venues of Badr, Uhud and Khandaq battles fought by the Prophet(SAW) to Madinah clearly indicates that it was the Makkans who were after them.

This Room is so nice to be in....U see!!! The problem with people is tha they do not read the scripture.....The qur'an was revealled to the prophet in parts...when a matter arises,Allah reveal a verse,some in command to the prophet and his companions,to be emulated by the followers and some to the whole of the world(directly).....THE JIHAD: Is not only a fight...its whatever you do(on an outing for Allah's course)...Allah stated..that he hates fitnah(oppresion),so he command of holy war,anywhere jihad was mentioned...God says 'verily this(jihad) is better than fitnah...Lemme tell you a story:....u see! The first woman that was killed in islam was sumayah..they pierced her through her private part and thousand of muslim were killed,men droven out of their houses,women and daughter raped and killed..this was an oppression God didn't like and He command "Fight them whereever u find them'...obviously,muslims weren't fighting muslim...the only way to describe the arabs then was that they were unbelievers

I shall not say anything less I butress my point...Islam is not just a religion but a way of life...It teaches that when you are been driven out of your lands,Fight for It.....Lemme ask you something...If USA came into Nigeria and starts blowing stuffs up,and killing our wives and children,What do we have the army...Would we sit down and look.Likewise,when an islamic state is been oppressed,they are to FIGHT

You listen to the News and you believe everything they say....THERE'S A WAR AGAINST ISLAM....u look @ all the countries u've mentioned and u look @ d pattern...the pecentage of christians in the north is only 4%...I want to kill christian,I'd risk the life of my muslim brothers when I could go to EKiti...does this appeal to you...I shall tell you something and its the truth...More muslims have died in the boko haram crises thhan christians.As it is in Iraq,they killed over 420 pple in egypt last month just in one day,boko haram killed 44 muslims while they were worshipping,it also blew up manu muslim primary schools,look @ what they did with libya(the most peaceful country in africa),the blew up palestine,blew up iran and iraq claiming they were looking for osama...over 22300 people died in iraq then(muslim!!!) Muslim are dying...u say muslim are terrorist...BY Allah, without posters,Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world...9/11 was a lie,So many 9/11 victims have converted to Islam..I don't mostly believe in stories(its not right in islam else there's proof) but I know so well, that SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT

Ididnt want to do thhis but I have to...I know you wouldn't let the Muslims breathe...so I'll show you JIHAD in world religious scriptures....starting with the BIBLE!!!

In such a situation, the sense of perseverance and tolerance of the muslims would have been messed up by the Makkans, if no action was taken by the muslims. That was why Allah now permitted the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to fight back.

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.  (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"


Numbers 13:26-28
26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.
27 They gave Moses this account: "We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.
28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.  (Numbers 31:17-18)"

It's odd how one of the 10 Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill (or murder).  (Exodus 20:13)", and yet, the bible ordered the killing of innocent children and non-virgin girls by the mass!

"....The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of MOSES to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children...."

"....According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]...."

"Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse....."

"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."


Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Ezekiel 21
3 and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked.
4 Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north.
5 Then all people will know that I the LORD have drawn my sword from its scabbard; it will not return again.'

2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."

THERE ARE SO MUCH MORE but I'll stop there

OF All the verses I've stated....Please don't run away o...I'll highlight this one....
Numbers 31:17-18
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

According to the historical elaborations about Numbers 31:17-18 Biblical Verses in the Jewish Talmud, the girls in "every girl who has never slept with a man" were AS YOUNG AS 3 YEARS OLD, and were forced into SEX! . Now SHOW ME A VERSE IN THE QUR'AN THAT ENCOURAGES KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE

I have so many things to say unto you...but I shall not bear them now till u reply to my claims

khattab02: Hmmmm impressive, well quoted and correct. But out context. I will give you the context but before i give you the context let me point some worth noting. This complete qur'an we have now was not given to the prophet(SAW) as a complete book, it was given to him as a revelation. It was revealed revelation after revelation, 13 years in Makkah and 10 years in Madinah and it has to do with the situation on ground. There are numerous passages in the Qur'an commanding Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in such terms as 'say', 'remind', 'inform', 'and 'your Lord say', so Muhammad (SAW) does not speak on his own desire or authority, it is no less than a Revelation sent down to him Qur'an 53:3-4. And here comes the context.....

Go ahead, I am waiting for the context

khattab02: There was a peace treaty between the muslims and the polytheist of Makkah and this peace treaty was actually broken by the polytheist of Makkah, by the time Allah subhanawataala reaches verse 5, he is giving an ultimatum to the polytheist to put tins straight in four months otherwise there will be a declaration of war. So in the battle field, Allah is giving the muslims an ultimatum to kill the polytheist wherever you find them, this is in context of battle field. If today there is a war between America and vietnam and the American president says to the American soldiers' wherever you find the vietnami soldiers you kill him' this is in context of war. But if I quote him out of context when there is no war, I will make him sound like a butcher and that will be devilish. Almost all the verses that speaks about fighting in the battle field, the next verse that follows is PEACE is BETTER. EG surah 9:6 says'if the polytheist wants peace,don't just let him go, escort him to a place of security so that he may hear the word of Allah' because Islam is the religion of peace.

Old story, you haven't quoted one Surah or Hadith to backup your explanation. In a scholarship debate, you have to refer to the same sources you have been talking about. I mentioned two verses, so please put them in the correct context.

From your explanation, you are saying the context is confined to 7th century Arabia wars - is that correct?

khattab02: Al-bukhari and Muslim are most authentic.

Awesome, thank you

khattab02: What many of you fail to realise about the verses of fight is that, those verses came in context of what the muslims were facing in Makkah during the early years of revelations. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions were forcefully driven out of Makkah and many were tortured and matryed; they were still being pursued to their new settlement with the main aim of totally getting ride of them. The closeness of the venues of Badr, Uhud and Khandaq battles fought by the Prophet(SAW) to Madinah clearly indicates that it was the Makkans who were after them.

The out of context mantra wouldn't save you. Muhammad was involved in several raids on the Caravans from Damascus, in one of those raids, his men killed people from the caravans. I fail to see how this was defensive.

So, are you saying ALL the wars/battles Mohammad fought were defensive? Your answer will determine the outcome of your contribution to this thread

dareabiola98: This Room is so nice to be in....U see!!! The problem with people is tha they do not read the scripture.....The qur'an was revealled to the prophet in parts...when a matter arises,Allah reveal a verse,some in command to the prophet and his companions,to be emulated by the followers and some to the whole of the world(directly).....THE JIHAD: Is not only a fight...its whatever you do(on an outing for Allah's course)...Allah stated..that he hates fitnah(oppresion),so he command of holy war,anywhere jihad was mentioned...God says 'verily this(jihad) is better than fitnah...Lemme tell you a story:....u see! The first woman that was killed in islam was sumayah..they pierced her through her private part and thousand of muslim were killed,men droven out of their houses,women and daughter raped and killed..this was an oppression God didn't like and He command "Fight them whereever u find them'...obviously,muslims weren't fighting muslim...the only way to describe the arabs then was that they were unbelievers

Dude, try and be coherent. Please provide sources to back up what you are saying i.e. from the Quran and Hadith. All you have said so far is your own version.

Here is your Hadith:

Sahih Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Do you see the reason for fighting? He is not fighting because they attacked him, he is fighting to impose Islam on others.


Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

dareabiola98: I shall not say anything less I butress my point...Islam is not just a religion but a way of life...It teaches that when you are been driven out of your lands,Fight for It.....Lemme ask you something...If USA came into Nigeria and starts blowing stuffs up,and killing our wives and children,What do we have the army...Would we sit down and look.Likewise,when an islamic state is been oppressed,they are to FIGHT

Who is blowing up Nigeria today, is it not Boko Haram, are they not muslims - what have you done to protect your land and family. Stop playing pretend man and acting ignorant

dareabiola98: You listen to the News and you believe everything they say....THERE'S A WAR AGAINST ISLAM....u look @ all the countries u've mentioned and u look @ d pattern...the pecentage of christians in the north is only 4%...I want to kill christian,I'd risk the life of my muslim brothers when I could go to EKiti...does this appeal to you...I shall tell you something and its the truth...More muslims have died in the boko haram crises thhan christians.As it is in Iraq,they killed over 420 pple in egypt last month just in one day,boko haram killed 44 muslims while they were worshipping,it also blew up manu muslim primary schools,look @ what they did with libya(the most peaceful country in africa),the blew up palestine,blew up iran and iraq claiming they were looking for osama...over 22300 people died in iraq then(muslim!!!) Muslim are dying...u say muslim are terrorist...BY Allah, without posters,Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world...9/11 was a lie,So many 9/11 victims have converted to Islam..I don't mostly believe in stories(its not right in islam else there's proof) but I know so well, that SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT

Another confused muslim who is deviating from the topic. You sound very ignorant, do you know how many wars muslim have fought among themselves? I thought muslims are not supposed to kill themselves. What is happening in Syria today - Sunnis and Shias killing and slaughtering themselves like Chicken - are you going to blame that one on America. Or when Sadaam invaded Kuwait - who helped Kuwait? So, stop showing your ignorance is public

dareabiola98: Ididnt want to do thhis but I have to...I know you wouldn't let the Muslims breathe...so I'll show you JIHAD in world religious scriptures....starting with the BIBLE!!!

It's a free thread, you can post what you like. Before you start with JIHAD in the bible, go up north and see if Christians are practicing Jihad against your muslim brothers or if it is the other way around

khattab02: In such a situation, the sense of perseverance and tolerance of the muslims would have been messed up by the Makkans, if no action was taken by the muslims. That was why Allah now permitted the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to fight back.

Again, you have provided no references for us to debate. There were several battles fought and I will give you the context and let you know who attacked first. Read up on the 1st four raids and see who conducted them? Also, read up on the battle of Badr and see who attacked first. Now, I have references

dareabiola98: "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.  (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"

THERE ARE SO MUCH MORE but I'll stop there

Why are you stopping? All you have proved is that there is indeed violence in Islam. What you don't realize is that Christianity has undergone a transformation. For example, when people steal and commit adultery - we don't stone them like they way they used to do under the Mosaic law (law of Moses). Jesus Christ, set a new precedence - forgiveness and mercy.

Under the Mosiac law it was an eye for an eye - what did Jesus teach? Love your enemies, give them food, love those that despise and use you. Also, there is something called wisdom in the Bible, the books of proverbs talks about wisdom and using your common sense. Christianity has passed through this phase. Islam hasn't and that is why some muslims can read a Surah like 9:5 and 9:29 and take it literally and kill people for it. So, you don't need to tell us about the bible, because Christians know how to live in peace with all men. Tell your brothers in the North to leave Christians alone - if they want to bomb and kill themselves, we don't care, just leave Christians alone

dareabiola98: OF All the verses I've stated....Please don't run away o...I'll highlight this one....
Numbers 31:17-18
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

I will concede if you can show me where Jesus Christ killed anyone or taught Christians should kill people. You want verses from the Quran and Hadith:

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

Do you want me to tell you about the raids Mohammad went on and the people he killed? Or the Jewish man he tortured and killed and married his wife after killing her husband

dareabiola98: I have so many things to say unto you...but I shall not bear them now till u reply to my claims

Your claims are taken from Islamic websites that I read all the time . It's nothing new. However, this thread is about the persecution of Christians in muslim land up to this VERY DAY.

We are talking about the Muslim Brotherhood killing Christian Copts and burning their Churches you are talking about wars fought between Israel and other nations thousands of years ago.

Mintayo:
Guy you are so funny,if you calling some muslim ignorant for burning churches and killing in the name of your god,are u saying that majority of the muslims you have in islamic countries are not muslims? Saudi,iraq,iran,pakistan,egypt etc?
They are the ones practising the real message of islam!

Ask them again abeg

I don't know them,nobody knows them,what makes u think they are not ordinary soldiers trained for that course....I have over 3000+ muslim as friends and non blows up things...Whatever this is,Allah knows best

alexis:

Who is blowing up Nigeria today, is it not Boko Haram, are they not muslims - what have you done to protect your land and family. Stop playing pretend man and acting ignorant

You know where the problem is..DOGMATISM....when u make a point,u shout out loud...All that I've qouted,are they not in the bible?

So u do not believe in Moses?...Anything moses had done...jesus came to fulfil it.Hipocrites are so much here.Don't change the topic,obviously when you made claims in the qur'an,we tried to show u the real meaning but u didn't yield...and we made qoutes from your scripture...Defend that!!!

alexis:

I will concede if you can show me where Jesus Christ killed anyone or taught Christians should kill people. You want verses from the Quran and Hadith:

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

Do you want me to tell you about the raids Mohammad went on and the people he killed? Or the Jewish man he tortured and killed and married his wife after killing her husband

alexis:

Old story, you haven't quoted one Surah or Hadith to backup your explanation. In a scholarship debate, you have to refer to the same sources you have been talking about. I mentioned two verses, so please put them in the correct context.

From your explanation, you are saying the context is confined to 7th century Arabia wars - is that correct?

You have started your blind game again,can't you see Surah 9:5 and 6 there? Limit your groundnuts

I weep when I see christians who do not really understand the bible...if jesus changed any law from the law of moses...he'd be least in the kingdom...as he has qouted "think not that I've come to destroy the laws of the prophets,I've come to fulfil,whoever breaks on jot of the law shall be called least in the kingdom"....its either jesus contradicted himself or he didn't know what he was saying...

alexis:

Why are you stopping? All you have proved is that there is indeed violence in Islam. What you don't realize is that Christianity has undergone a transformation. For example, when people steal and commit adultery - we don't stone them like they way they used to do under the Mosaic law (law of Moses). Jesus Christ, set a new precedence - forgiveness and mercy.

Under the Mosiac law it was an eye for an eye - what did Jesus teach? Love your enemies, give them food, love those that despise and use you. Also, there is something called wisdom in the Bible, the books of proverbs talks about wisdom and using your common sense. Christianity has passed through this phase. Islam hasn't and that is why some muslims can read a Surah like 9:5 and 9:29 and take it literally and kill people for it. So, you don't need to tell us about the bible, because Christians know how to live in peace with all men. Tell your brothers in the North to leave Christians alone - if they want to bomb and kill themselves, we don't care, just leave Christians alone