I am setting up this thread in the religious section (Not under the Islam section) because the moderator for the Islam section hides many of my posts whenever he fells it is necessary. To that effect, I want to discuss an important subject that most people either evade, try to be politically correct about of just too scared to talk about -

I will be talking about the persecution of Christians across the Islamic world. I will be examining recent incidents from across a wide geographical spread, from Morocco to Nigeria to Indonesia-and even sometimes in Western Europe & North America. I will also be delving back into the past to consider the treatment of Christians under Muslim rule from the time of the earliest Islamic conquests.

Christians are being persecuted in Muslim countries today for the same reasons as in the past centuries. And the patterns of persecution-the same motivations, the same actions, and the same horrific results-recur in countries as different as Kenya and Denmark. Those patterns, I will demonstrate, emerge from themes in the Koran, in Islamic theology, in Sharia law, and in Islamic culture.

I will be touching on the large numbers of Christians in Egypt-according to the baptismal records of the Coptic orthodox Church, there are some 16 million Christian Copts in Egypt-prompt regular bursts of anti-Christian persecution. Indeed, as one of the oldest and largest Muslim nations, with one of the oldest and largest Christian populations, Egypt is a kind of paradigm of Islam's treatment of Christian-both in the present and going back more than 13 centuries.

In sub-Saharan countries where Christians often make up half or even more than half of the entire population, persecution gives way to genocidal jihads as Muslims in these countries try to purge their lands of any trace of the "infidel." Nigeria, for example is experiencing appalling violence; the accounts of persecution are only the tip of the iceberg of Christian suffering in Africa. In Nigeria, where Christians make up nearly half the population, we are being offered a rare glimpse of early Islamic history repeating itself, as Muslims use violence to subjugate or kill very large numbers of non-Muslims in the name of Islam and through offensive jihad. That is the true story of Islam's spread from Arabia.

Why am I focusing on the Muslim persecution of Christians? The fact is, while it is true that Christians are also being persecuted in non-Muslims countries, the lion's share of the persecution happens in Muslim countries. But there is another important point: Muslim persecution is much more existential and deeply rooted in Muslim societies. The persecution of Christians in other, mostly communist, nations is very real. It should never be minimized. But the overthrow of, say, the North Korean regime could well end the persecution of Christians over there almost overnight-just as the fall of the Soviet Union saw Christian's persecution come to a quick close in Russia. This is because the persecution of Christians in non-Muslim nations is almost always rooted in secular ideology and tied to a particular political regime. On the other hand, Muslim persecution of Christians is perennial; it transcends any one regime. It is part and parcel of the Islamic religion and the civilization born of it-hence it's tenacity. Thus, the persecution of Christians in the Muslim world is not only a widespread phenomenon that has horrific effects on large numbers of human beings across the globe; it is also a discrete phenomenon, deserving attention in it's own right.

I want to engage Muslims, Christians and anyone interested in this thread to be patient and follow what I have to say and the research I have done on this subject.

Thanks

Believe me when I say I know what u talk about, for I am indeed a witness n I intend to write about it someday, maybe opening a thread on it? Following this thread.

Like you I am frequently banned there when islam has no answers. Out of experience I always argue on the quran and the hadiths that muslims there declared as authentic. I was told by muslims there that Bukhari is sahìh. I only quote him directly if I have to else I use the quran. As a word of advice on this thread I would like you to request muslims here to tell us which are their authentic sources. Then we start from there. I hope the mods here dont move it to big mac section. What you want to start should be allowed to go on uninhibited. We have questions from their own sources let them rebutt our arguments. Ill join in later and I promise to only quote the sources the muslims themselves tell us that they are sahìh.

alexis: I am setting up this thread in the religious section (Not under the Islam section) because the moderator for the Islam section hides many of my posts whenever he fells it is necessary. To that effect, I want to discuss an important subject that most people either evade, try to be politically correct about of just too scared to talk about -

I will be talking about the persecution of Christians across the Islamic world. I will be examining recent incidents from across a wide geographical spread, from Morocco to Nigeria to Indonesia-and even sometimes in Western Europe & North America. I will also be delving back into the past to consider the treatment of Christians under Muslim rule from the time of the earliest Islamic conquests.

Christians are being persecuted in Muslim countries today for the same reasons as in the past centuries. And the patterns of persecution-the same motivations, the same actions, and the same horrific results-recur in countries as different as Kenya and Denmark. Those patterns, I will demonstrate, emerge from themes in the Koran, in Islamic theology, in Sharia law, and in Islamic culture.

I will be touching on the large numbers of Christians in Egypt-according to the baptismal records of the Coptic orthodox Church, there are some 16 million Christian Copts in Egypt-prompt regular bursts of anti-Christian persecution. Indeed, as one of the oldest and largest Muslim nations, with one of the oldest and largest Christian populations, Egypt is a kind of paradigm of Islam's treatment of Christian-both in the present and going back more than 13 centuries.

In sub-Saharan countries where Christians often make up half or even more than half of the entire population, persecution gives way to genocidal jihads as Muslims in these countries try to purge their lands of any trace of the "infidel." Nigeria, for example is experiencing appalling violence; the accounts of persecution are only the tip of the iceberg of Christian suffering in Africa. In Nigeria, where Christians make up nearly half the population, we are being offered a rare glimpse of early Islamic history repeating itself, as Muslims use violence to subjugate or kill very large numbers of non-Muslims in the name of Islam and through offensive jihad. That is the true story of Islam's spread from Arabia.

Why am I focusing on the Muslim persecution of Christians? The fact is, while it is true that Christians are also being persecuted in non-Muslims countries, the lion's share of the persecution happens in Muslim countries. But there is another important point: Muslim persecution is much more existential and deeply rooted in Muslim societies. The persecution of Christians in other, mostly communist, nations is very real. It should never be minimized. But the overthrow of, say, the North Korean regime could well end the persecution of Christians over there almost overnight-just as the fall of the Soviet Union saw Christian's persecution come to a quick close in Russia. This is because the persecution of Christians in non-Muslim nations is almost always rooted in secular ideology and tied to a particular political regime. On the other hand, Muslim persecution of Christians is perennial; it transcends any one regime. It is part and parcel of the Islamic religion and the civilization born of it-hence it's tenacity. Thus, the persecution of Christians in the Muslim world is not only a widespread phenomenon that has horrific effects on large numbers of human beings across the globe; it is also a discrete phenomenon, deserving attention in it's own right.

I want to engage Muslims, Christians and anyone interested in this thread to be patient and follow what I have to say and the research I have done on this subject.

Thanks

At this moment, from one end of the Muslim world to the other, Christians are being persecuted. A January 2012 Reuters report cited an estimated "100 million Christians persecuted world-wide" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians. A few years earlier the British Secret Service, M-16, had put the number of Christians been persecuted around the world at twice as high, 200 million http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/200_million_christians_in_60_countries_subject_to_persecution/. A human rights representative for the Organization for Security and Cooperation on Europe estimates that a Christian is killed for his faith "every five minutes" http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/sociologist-every-5-minutes-a-christian-is-martyred.

The vast majority of those martyrs are being killed in the Islamic world. Eight of the top nine offending countries - Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Maldives, Mali, Iran and Yemen - have a majority of Muslims (the 9th, Eritrea, is roughly half muslim). Of the top 50 countries documented for their persecution of Christians, 42 either are Muslim-majority nations or have a sizeable Muslim population that is attempting to subjugate or eliminate surronding Christians (Nigeria being the primary example of the latter pattern).

From one end of the Muslim world to another, Christians are suffering under the return of Sharia or some form of implementation of Sharia. Often translated as "Islamic law," Sharia simply means the "Islamic way" of doing things. Accordingly, whereever and whenever Muslims are in power or getting more power, churches are outlawed, burned, bombed, while Bibles and crucifixes are confiscated and destroyed. Freedom of speech - to speak positively of Christianity or critically of Islam - is denied, often on pain of death. Born Muslims who wish to convert to Christianity out of sincere religious conviction are denied this basic freedom, also on pain of death. Christians are deemed to be less than 2nd-class citizens by many Muslim governments and Muslim populations.

Although Muslim persecution of Christians is one of the most dramatic stories of our times, it is also one of the least known in the West. Also, most Christians do not know how to respond to the persecution. Such ignorance was not always the case, Ironically, much of what I will be discussing will be new to some Western readers and Christians alike. The exact patterns we see today in the Muslim persecution of Christians were quite familiar to Christians who lived in contact with the Muslim world in pas centuries.

Tragically, a misunderstanding of the past has both exacerbated Muslims persecution of Christians and blinded the West and most Christians to it's scope and real cause.

Pastor Olu T: Believe me when I say I know what u talk about, for I am indeed a witness n I intend to write about it someday, maybe opening a thread on it? Following this thread.

I will appreciate your input and I encourage you to share your experience

basilico: Like you I am frequently banned there when islam has no answers. Out of experience I always argue on the quran and the hadiths that muslims there declared as authentic. I was told by muslims there that Bukhari is sahìh. I only quote him directly if I have to else I use the quran. As a word of advice on this thread I would like you to request muslims here to tell us which are their authentic sources. Then we start from there. I hope the mods here dont move it to big mac section. What you want to start should be allowed to go on uninhibited. We have questions from their own sources let them rebutt our arguments. Ill join in later and I promise to only quote the sources the muslims themselves tell us that they are sahìh.

Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are AUTHORITATIVELY Hadiths that nearly all Muslims subscribe to. The Muslim argument that the Hadith(s) are not authentic is a cheap escape and doesn't hold water. Al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim are some of the earliest sources of Muslim traditions. So, if a muslim in the 21st century comes and tell you that it is not authentic, ask him if he is an authority on the Quran & Hadith?

@Alexis, I actually have the book by Raymond Ibrahim on my kindle (though I have not read it yet - but soon) and i'm a frequent visitor to his website so i know a subset of what is in the book. I'm sure by the time i finish it this thread will be long gone.

The prayer is that with this thread, those who are on the fence will see and will be convicted in their spirit and inner mind to begin to serve the true and the living God.

alexis:

I will appreciate your input and I encourage you to share your experience

No not now, waiting for the spirit leading, but its not what u think for this will surely blow ur mind the extent they have taken.

proo212: @Alexis, I actually have the book by Raymond Ibrahim on my kindle (though I have not read it yet - but soon) and i'm a frequent visitor to his website so i know a subset of what is in the book. I'm sure by the time i finish it this thread will be long gone.

The prayer is that with this thread, those who are on the fence will see and will be convicted in their spirit and inner mind to begin to serve the true and the living God.

This thread is based on some of the research and references by Raymond Ibrahim, whom I consider an amazing and gifted author. I have read the Quran, reading it, reading the Hadiths and compiling historical text like the "Conditions of Omar". Raymond does an excellent job of explaining the historical context and providing a glimpse of what Christians went through during the centuries of Islamic conquest and persecution. I am also basing my work on Robert's Spencer "Infidel's Guide to the Quran" which I think every Muslim and non-Muslim should read

Hi Alex,

What about cases where Christians become the persecutors of Muslims?

I wonder when christians will stop all these and begin to do the right thing commanded by our Lord Jesus.


Shalom!

alexis: At this moment, from one end of the Muslim world to the other, Christians are being persecuted. A January 2012 Reuters report cited an estimated "100 million Christians persecuted world-wide" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians.

Evangelism by lies, why the inconsistency?

alexis:

Using wikipedia as evidence on a public forum - I don't know if I should laugh at you.

https://www.nairaland.com/1277576/8-reasons-why-don-t/2#15653734




Since you now accept wiki we are left with this link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Spencer now banned from the UK for obvious reasons being a hate merchant can only be the hero of misguided people, when u go to websites that preach hate and buy into such hate, a certain part of your brain cells dries, I think the part that has to be with thinking! I vist websites of Spencer and Raymond whenever I want to have a good laugh at paranoia disturb!

https://www.nairaland.com/1359550/banned-again-catholic-diocese-cancels

https://www.nairaland.com/1339201/deacon-banned-uk-inciting-hate

Let me share the link of a dedicated atheist who collects information of Christian persecution of Muslim, ok I won't share it yet, I probably would start my own thread detailing Christian persecution of Muslims in the west!

but here is one,

https://www.nairaland.com/1399473/french-air-force-officer-accused

http://www.nj.com/somerset/index.ssf/2013/08/muslim_woman_claims_bridgewater_commons_mall_guard_intimidated_discriminated_by_forcing_her_to_remov.html

If you need more just holla!

striktlymi: Hi Alex,

What about cases where Christians become the persecutors of Muslims?

Hi striktlymi,

Please start a thread on it and we will discuss it

Emusan: I wonder when christians will stop all these and begin to do the right thing commanded by our Lord Jesus.


Shalom!

What is the right thing?

vedaxcool:

Evangelism by lies, why the inconsistency?



https://www.nairaland.com/1277576/8-reasons-why-don-t/2#15653734




Since you now accept wiki we are left with this link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Why not start your own thread where Christians are persecuting muslims and we can discuss it. If I write anything that is not true, kindly refute it but don't stand here and attack me as if it will stop me from saying what I want to say. You haven't provided one link in regards to what I have said is untrue.

Is the Pact of Omar false? Are the Coptics been killed in Eqypt and the muslim brotherhood killing them and burning their churches false? Are your brothers up in Northern Nigeria an illusion - bombing churches, killing Christians - are those lies vexacool? If I am lying, point me out and say I am but don't come here and start attacking my character as if that will in someway distort the truth of this thread. If this was in the muslim section, my posts wouldn't have been hidden or I would have been locked out of the thread

So, sit back and take a chill pill and let us intelligently research history.

vedaxcool:

Spencer now banned from the UK for obvious reasons being a hate merchant can only be the hero of misguided people, when u go to websites that preach hate and buy into such hate, a certain part of your brain cells dries, I think the part that has to be with thinking! I vist websites of Spencer and Raymond whenever I want to have a good laugh at paranoia disturb!

I wonder if it was Spencer that blew up the Twin Towers or if he was the one was started the London bombings or the bombings in Spain . Robert Spencer is one of the best academia on Islam & to date, none of your major Islamic Scholar wants to debate him. If what he is saying is not true, surely he would be exposed. The UK is known for not wanting to offend muslims, so it will tell you that the beheading of an innocent soldier by Isamic fanatics like your Yoruba muslim brother who butchered the man in public and told us why he did it quoting Surah 9 is not religious motivated but that Robert Spencer coming to pay his respects is not conducive for public peace

vedaxcool: Let me share the link of a dedicated atheist who collects information of Christian persecution of Muslim, ok I won't share it yet, I probably would start my own thread detailing Christian persecution of Muslims in the west!

but here is one,

If you need more just holla!

Oga, tag along and post constructively. I have always told you, if what I am saying is not true, provide facts to disprove it

From it's very beginnings, Islam's appeal was tied to it's ability to offer it's followers worldly success & prosperity. From Muslim prophet Muhammed's 1st successful caravan raid at Badr to the centuries of jihad conquests that followed, Islam was synonymous with power and success. From the 7th century to the 19th century, Muslims were accustom to being the victors. Up until that time, they saw in Christian Europe just another part of the world that in due time would also be conquered & annexed to Islam.

In just the 1st few decades of it's existence, Islam had already conquered half of the Christian world's lands - including regions that were the backbone of early Christainity, such as Syria & Egypt - while Europe was continually besieged. For centuries, European Christians lived perpetually under the threat of the Islamic conquest that forever changed the Mediterranean.

Then the unthinkable happened. In 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte, an infidel from Christendom, invaded and subjugated Eqypt, the heart of the Islamic world, with barely a struggle. This crushing defeat was followed by any number of European powers conquering and colonizing much of the muslim world. As a result, for the 1st time in history, Muslims questioned the superior strength of Islam and its power to fulfill their desires; for the 1st time in history, Muslims looked with awe and respect to the West.

It was one thing to hold unhesitatingly to Islam and Sharia when Islam was conquering and subjugating non-Muslims, as it had done for well over a millennium. It was quite another thing for Muslims to remain confident in the Islamic way when the despised Christians infidels were conquering and subjugating the lands of Islam with great ease - displaying their superior weapons and technology, not to mention all the other perks of Western civilization. In the oft-quoted words of Osama bin Laden "When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse"

@Op,good work,i have known you to be an objective person,saying things with FACTS.
Pls MODS do not move this thread to the islamic section.
Following...

alexis:

Hi striktlymi,

Please start a thread on it and we will discuss it

This thread serves that purpose conveniently. No need to start another one. If we want to discuss about the persecutions Christians suffer from Muslims, then it would only be proper to look at both sides of the coin and not the one-sided view you have up there.

striktlymi:

This thread serves that purpose conveniently. No need to start another one. If we want to discuss about the persecutions Christians suffer from Muslims, then it would only be proper to look at both sides of the coin and not the one-sided view you have up there.

While you have a point, I disagree that this thread should discuss the other point you noted. This thread was started to discuss the past and present persecution that Christians are suffering mainly in Islamic countries and where Sharia or some form of it is the norm. Now, I can't stop you from posting what you want and may but I will not engage you because I want to concentrate on the theme and purpose of this thread.

THE CHRISTIAN GOLDEN AGE

One natural byproduct of Muslims westernizing was that, for the first time in history, the Christians of the Islamic world were by and large no longer oppressed - certainly not by the standards of their previous history under Islam. Two causes account for this Christian Golden Age in the Muslim world. In the 1st place the European powers, which in the 19th century still largely identified with Christianity, directly intervened in the Muslim world to liberate and protect Christians. Second and more important was the fact that many Muslims emulated Western ways, naturally sloughing off their Islamic identity and mentality and the contempt for the "infidels" that, as we shall see, is an integral part of that mentality.

So, the discriminatory Sharia laws governing "dhimmis" - that is non-Muslims living in conditions of subjugation and humiliation under Islamic hegemony - were all abolished during this era. The most obvious example was the abolition of the "jizya" - the monetary tribute Christians had to pay to safeguard their lives in an Islamic state. In 1856, the Ottoman Empire, under pressure from European powers, especially England and France, issued the Hatt-i Humanyun decree as part of it's overall reforms: for the 1st time in Islam's 1,200 years of existence (at the time), non-Muslims, and their right to religious freedom and worship was to be guaranteed.

Of course, one should not oversimplify the situation. There were still pious Muslims and oppressed Christians even during this period. The point s that, overall, acceptance of Christians reached unprecedented levels during this era - hence it is rightfully referred to as the Golden Age.

Christians, or their part, came to champion yet another Western innovation - nationalism - that helped identify them no longer as members of a religious minority but as fellow members of the nation-state. Membership in "the Arabic Nation" was open to everyone who spoke Arabic, which obviously included Christians. It was a subtle but important shift from the predecessor idea of the umma, the distinctly Muslim nation. In the 1920s and 1930s, Egyptian intellectuals traced their lineage to and identified with Pharaonic and Hellenistic Egypt - not the Arab past.

In slightly different terms, the era when Christians lived in relative safety in the Muslim world is so much closer to us in time than the "storybook" centuries of persecution that many in the West cannot but filter current events through this Golden Age paradigm. But the facts speak for themselves. In 1900, at the height of the Golden Age, 20% of the Middle East was still Christian, whereas today less than 2% is, and the Christian population is rapidly dwindling. In our lifetime, Christians may disappear altogether from Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran.

alexis:

Why not start your own thread where Christians are persecuting muslims and we can discuss it. If I write anything that is not true, kindly refute it but don't stand here and attack me as if it will stop me from saying what I want to say. You haven't provided one link in regards to what I have said is untrue.

Is the Pact of Omar false? Are the Coptics been killed in Eqypt and the muslim brotherhood killing them and burning their churches false? Are your brothers up in Northern Nigeria an illusion - bombing churches, killing Christians - are those lies vexacool? If I am lying, point me out and say I am but don't come here and start attacking my character as if that will in someway distort the truth of this thread. If this was in the muslim section, my posts wouldn't have been hidden or I would have been locked out of the thread

So, sit back and take a chill pill and let us intelligently research history.

We have been able to determine the op lacks any iota of credibility or honesty, in any sane debate you expect somebody to be consistent, he finds evidence that contradict his stance as being untenable in any rational discourse, while evidence that support his claims as being part and parcel of facts presentable, now that we have reached the conclusion that the op lacks credibility we are able to say by extension any evidence that he would be presenting is nothing more than a reflection of his obvious bias and perchant for being dishonest! Even his Christian brother labels him a liar

alexis: At this moment, from one end of the Muslim world to the other, Christians are being persecuted. A January 2012 Reuters report cited an estimated "100 million Christians persecuted world-wide" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians.

Evangelism by lies, why the inconsistency?

alexis:

Using wikipedia as evidence on a public forum - I don't know if I should laugh at you.

https://www.nairaland.com/1277576/8-reasons-why-don-t/2#15653734

gronzywares:

You two should give it a rest, alexis you disgrace yourself when you stare at the obvious truth, leave these muslims to keep denying the greatness of Jesus, our Savior, but for us to see the truth and deny it, . . ., only makes us on the same par with them! Did the koran become the truth rather than the bible? Please, stop disgracing us, Moses performed a great miracle, . . ., vexacool met your challenge, simple! stop fooling around, we don't follow their ways, we are followers of Christ our savior, our actions puts makes us better than anything they can ever claim to be! The bible remains the only true source of guidance!

AliarEXist has proven to be one who is inconsistent and finds dishonesty to be acceptable!

alexis:

I wonder if it was Spencer that blew up the Twin Towers or if he was the one was started the London bombings or the bombings in Spain . Robert Spencer is one of the best academia on Islam & to date, none of your major Islamic Scholar wants to debate him. If what he is saying is not true, surely he would be exposed. The UK is known for not wanting to offend muslims, so it will tell you that the beheading of an innocent soldier by Isamic fanatics like your Yoruba muslim brother who butchered the man in public and told us why he did it quoting Surah 9 is not religious motivated but that Robert Spencer coming to pay his respects is not conducive for public peace

I wonder whether Muslims are behind the banning of Spencer, a hate merchant banned by both a govt of a country and a church, why? because he spew hate! Now it is this same man that is known for hate that Alexis takes as his hero and saviour!

https://www.nairaland.com/1359550/banned-again-catholic-diocese-cancels

https://www.nairaland.com/1339201/deacon-banned-uk-inciting-hate

When a bigot visit the website of a hate merchant, the bigot begins to spread hate even more! LiarExist need to de-hatify himself!

alexis:

Oga, tag along and post constructively. I have always told you, if what I am saying is not true, provide facts to disprove it

Yes oohhh! Do you assume there is not slander against Islam that has not been refuted! You have seen nothing yet!

nOw nOw where to start from, ok

In his book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades, Robert Spencer entitles chapter four “Islam: Religion of Intolerance.” On p.47 he summarizes the chapter in three points, as follows:

*Islamic law mandates second-class status for Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims in Islamic society.

*These laws have never been abrogated or revised by any authority.

*The idea that Jews fared better in Islamic lands than in Christian Europe is false. [1]

This article will rebut the last point. (A follow up article will refute the first two.) Before we begin, a clarification of Spencer’s line of argumentation is in order. He dedicates page after page to describe how oppressive Islamic rule has been towards infidels, in order to bash the Muslims (and Islam) over the head with. Of course, Spencer’s line of argumentation would be nullified if it were pointed out that Western Christianity–of which he is a self-proclaimed defender of–was even more oppressive towards infidels. That is why he states his third point above, and argues that “the Muslim laws were much harsher for Jews than those of Christendom” [2] and that “in Christian lands there was the idea, however imperfect, of the equality of dignity and rights for all people.” [3]

As we can see, Christianity by comparison did not offer an alternative then neither could it be looked upon as being a model to adopt by others even Spencer, Aliarexist hero, understands this fact, One of the chief reason Christianity got relegated in to the back ground is simply because it always ended up serving as a vehicle for oppression, either to the poor masses or to the non christians, it always ended up being used by the elite to perpetuate their wickedness on others!

But we go further

Ahl al-Dhimma (dhimmi for short) translates to “the protected people” and was the historical word used to refer to non-Muslim peoples (such as Jews and Christians) living under Islamic rule. Arabist ideologues and Muslim apologists perpetuate the myth that the Islamic world was an idyllic “interfaith utopia” which epitomized religious tolerance; some seem to go as far as to claim that dhimmis “had it better” than Muslims under Islamic rule.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, anti-Islam ideologues argue that not only did Muslims historically persecute dhimmis, but that nonbelievers in the Islamic Orient were treated much worse than their counterparts were in the contemporaneous Christian Europe of the Middle Ages. To bolster this claim, one anti-Islam “researcher” by the pseudonym of Bat Ye’or coined the concept of “dhimmitude.” A counter-myth is now propagated on various websites, blogs and forums, namely that Islamic rule over non-Muslims had been characterized by an unparalleled brutality and wickedness. The Oxford Handbook of Jewish Studies calls out Bat Ye’or by name:

[One must] explain acts of Islamic oppression that did occur, without exaggerating them selectively into a ‘countermyth of Islamic persecution,’ as recent revisionism has done (e.g. Bat Ye’or 1985). [4]

These two sides (proponents of the interfaith utopia theory on the one hand and the Islamic persecution myth on the other hand) peddle their diametrically opposed paradigms, selectively quoting from various sources in order to “prove” their side. Of course, the truth lies in between this myth and counter-myth: dhimmis did not live under an idyllic interfaith utopia under Islamic rule–far from it: discrimination against nonbelievers was a prevalent phenomenon. Dhimmis were clearly treated as second-class citizens.

On the other hand, the counter-myth is equally dishonest and fails to contextualize the situation of dhimmis in the Islamic Orient with that of their counterparts in Christian Europe. We are always reminded by anti-Islam ideologues of the dhimmitude, a catch-all phrase which has caught on very well in recent times; the term is used as a stick to beat Muslims over the head with, as well as one to incite feelings of paranoia and xenophobia. This article will however recount what they–perhaps in their ignorance and zeal–have neglected to mention: there was in fact a direct corollary to the dhimmitude in the Christian West. It too has a catchy name: the Christian belief in the Perpetual Servitude of infidels, a concept which was in fact much more oppressive than the so-called dhimmitude.

Mark R. Cohen, a professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, is arguably considered to be the world’s leading scholar of Jews living in the Middle Ages under Islamic rule. He decided to write a book that contrasted the treatment of Jews living in the Islamic Orient with their counterparts in the Christian West. This book, Under Crescent and Cross, is the first of its kind, as it analytically compares the treatment of Jewish dhimmis (pejoratively called dhimmitude by ideologues) with that of the Perpetua Servitude (Perpetual Servitude) of Jewish infidels. Cohen’s magnum opus is remarkably balanced, neutral, and analytical: it rejects both myth and counter-myth, but concludes that while dhimmis were certainly not living under any sort of interfaith utopia, they did have better living conditions than nonbelievers in the Christian West. This article will use Professor Cohen’s book as a general template, but will cite other sources as well in order to cater to the online environment, taking into consideration the “internet chatter” and tailoring the arguments accordingly.

I Don't know why this guy is laughing



Maybe it is because of this;

Professor Cohen opens his book by saying:

When I began studying medieval Jewish history thirty years ago, conventional wisdom held that Jews living “under the crescent” enjoyed substantially greater security and a higher level of political and cultural integration than did Jews living “under the cross.” This was especially true of the persecuted Ashkenazic Jews of northern Europe. The fruitful Jewish-Muslim interfaith “symbiosis”…contrasted sharply with the sorrowful record of Jewish-Christian conflict in the Ashkenazic lands…[There was a] lachrymose conception of [European] Jewish history…

Recent decades have witnessed an effort to alter this picture. Toward the end of the 1960s–or, or more precisely, following the Six-Day War of June 1967–factors stemming from the Arab-Israeli conflict gave birth in some quarters to a radical revision of Jewish-Arab history. The new notion first appeared mainly in the writings of nonspecialists publishing in popular forums… [5]

I interject just to point out the keywords “nonspecialists” and “forums.” This drive to radically revise history is clearly an ideologically driven endeavor, devoid of academic integrity. Going on, Cohen says:

According to this [revised] view, the “Golden Age” was actually an era of hardship and oppression… [characterized by] discrimination and persecution. Some went so far as to suggest that the fate of Jews of Islam was at times as doleful as the lot of the Jews in Europe. I have chosen to call this view “the neo-lachrymose conception of Jewish-Arab history.” [6]

Our problem in this thread is further compounded by the fact that its major proponent is simply a dishonest nonspecialist!

vedaxcool

With all the tonque lashing, you are yet to tell refute what I have said. We all know you vexacool, always going around in circles and circles. If you are honest enough to address the points I have made, please do. If not - continue to display your ignorance as you have always done

vedaxcool:

I wonder whether Muslims are behind the banning of Spencer, a hate merchant banned by both a govt of a country and a church, why? because he spew hate! Now it is this same man that is known for hate that Alexis takes as his hero and saviour!

When a bigot visit the website of a hate merchant, the bigot begins to spread hate even more! LiarExist need to de-hatify himself!

When people put Islam under the microscope, they are called Bigots . When we talk about the violence in Islam, we are told we don't understand Islam. For those who say Islam is peaceful, vexacool loves them.

If you use your brainm Robert wasn't ban from the Church, the Church receive threats from your Muslim brothers that they will use violence. To avoid problems, the event was called off. That the British government doesn't want to offend Islam is nothing new - that is why they have Sharia courts there

Has Robert Spencer killed anyone? Did he bomb any mosque or cut the hands and head of infidels? Your brothers in the north BK, their counter-parts in Syria that are forcing sharia down others throat. Your muslim Wahabis in Saudi Arabia and Yemen that are sleeping with 10 year old girls - you don't see all that, yet you see Robert Spencer speaking his mind -

vedaxcool:

Yes oohhh! Do you assume there is not slander against Islam that has not been refuted! You have seen nothing yet!

Then use your common sense and refute what I have said. I am not attacking Islam, I am documenting the persecution of Christians. I don't know why your blood dey HOT