macof: OLODUMARE has no begining, he has no creator, he has no end.

U know the scientific theory of "ENERY can neither be creator nor destroyed"? am sure u do.
OLODUMARE can neither be created nor destroyed, HE is THE SOURCE, THE VERY FIRST FORM OF ENERGY. your life is being preserved by your soul, which is part of OLODUMARE's essence

Ok, you are saying olodumare is energy, right? And do you seriously believe energy is conscious? If yes, offer proof pls

joel lala:


If your own understaning of the origin of life hasnt been found yet, is it then right to say that other religious beliefs on the origin of life are wrong? Also, how can you say someone evolved from something without proving where the original source came from?

thats the Irrational part of Atheistism

joel lala:


But there are so many proof for religious beliefs too, so man chooses the one he/she willingly accepts..shikena

Offer one irrefutable proof for god, just one and I will believe immediately...

macof: It has been found but people like you refuse to believe it.

Put it forward again and let's review it...

ooman:

Because religion is subjective, but evolution is objective...

Yes, evolution is very objective that it tells us man evolved from apes but evolution cant explain the origin of life...

joel lala:


If your own understaning of the origin of life hasnt been found yet, is it then right to say that other religious beliefs on the origin of life are wrong? Also, how can you say someone evolved from something without proving where the original source came from?

We know animals evolve, we just haven't been able to create life, simple

joel lala:


Yes, evolution is very objective that it tells us man evolved from apes but evolution cant explain the origin of life...

That is in progress...

ooman:

Ok, you are saying olodumare is energy, right? And do you seriously believe energy is conscious? If yes, offer proof pls

my Ancestors believed and thats the very reason for My religion. The consciousness of the Energy that created the Universe

joel lala:



If this is your response, then the answer to your question have been answered long ago..so i am going to reply you in the exact way/format you gave your own response here by saying, the bible didnt talk about what God came from, it only explains what God created(humans/earth/living things) and what He still plans to do for them..I hope you are satisfied.

to you believers believe, nothing comes from nothing, atheists never tell u that it's impossible for something to come out of nothing. if u so believe that its impossible for nothing to come out of nothing where did god come from? ok ur god could have come out of nothing? but how can we prove he created us? how can we prove he exist in the first place? evolution proofs are everywhere. how can anything create something as magnificent as the universe and decide to hide from it. which of the gods created this world in the first place?

macof: my Ancestors believed and thats the very reason for My religion. The consciousness of the Energy that created the Universe

So you base your religion on your ancestral belief... Make sense...

ooman:

So you base your religion on your ancestral belief... Make sense...

Yes, you're right

Ooman is on fire!!!


See hot debunking.!

Good work, bro

ooman:

That is in progress...

Waiting!!!

Sorry man, being very busy. Now let me see what you have here...

ooman:

oh pls, you are part of those who claim atheism means something came from nothing, so i can ask you the same question, what you thought nothing meant.

That was meant to be sarcastic. The question still remains: What do you mean by "nothing"?

ooman:
really, you believe something pre-existed your god? you are on your part to atheism, to reason, but not yet, i still have a lot of work to do on you.

Go back and read my post again. As far as the above goes, you are yet to understand it.

ooman:
guy, you are saying a conscious being, capable of creating life can just exist himself? Its like saying man can exist himself, without being born. Its not possible. Now, while man can be born, god cannot, so you claim, so he cannot exist. He is too complex to just exist.

You still do not get it. Existence is part of what God is. Man on the other hand cannot exist without existence. I am not sure if you understand this but man cannot cause anything to to exist because it's not part of his nature.

The best man can do is use what has been given or created already. For example, when we say man is capable of creating ideas, what we are saying in effect is that man can use the brain that has been given already to bring about what we call ideas.

The only one who can truly create or better still: cause stuff into existence, is the one who has existence as part of its nature. It is God's nature to exist.

ooman:
the only thing that could just exist, and not have a beginning or end is energy, as proven already. God is conscious, and has personality, he cannot just exist, everything complex has a beginning, he must therefore have a creator, and his creator, a creator. This is why god cannot exist.

Now you are getting somethings, though not everything. Let's review some concepts that arose from your comment above:

1) Energy is eternal, i.e it has no beginning and will have no end.

2) Energy cannot be destroyed. In other words, nothing can destroy or create energy. Simply put: Energy is Omnipotent.

3) Energy is everywhere i.e it is Omniscience.

4) Etc.

The point where we may disagree is that I believe this Energy is Consciousness aka God while you believe it is not.

ooman:
so dont tell me he doesnt interfere. He is only weak when it comes to cubing evil

Your opinion.

ooman:
theistic scientists, they said this is why there can be life in it, they said that is its purpose, So get the point.. Evolution says the universe contains life wherever conditions supports it, and that is the only thing observable.

Nah!

All depends on what you call life. Is a car alive?

ooman:
ok, so somethings were not created by god right? evil for example. what about the devil?

God created Lucifer. He did not create evil.

ooman:
his decision to kill himself, as a sacrifice to himself, only to save us from himself shows an irrational being he is.

Nah!

It shows love.

ooman:
Such an irrational being couldnt have created this great universe and the magnificent life we have.

Funny how you believe something that lacks consciousness created consciousness and you still hold the view that this unconscious thing is rational? Can rationality come from irrationality?

ooman:
common, you believe in a god who created everything by speaking! Only in myths do such happen

Your opinion!

ooman:
what is wrong with your reasoning faculty? There doesnt have to be a creator in nature, because such a creator must also have a creator, and that goes on unstoppable. Nature is observed to be self existent.

The above shows that all you say about Energy being eternal and uncreated, you do not believe.

macof: Op God exist just not the way Christians portray God. He is the much more than the Christians say he is. If you want to understand more about God, check out what other religions have to say.

How do Christians portray God?

striktlymi: Sorry man, being very busy. Now let me see what you have here...



That was meant to be sarcastic. The question still remains: What do you mean by "nothing"?




Go back and read my post again. As far as the above goes, you are yet to understand it.



You still do not get it. Existence is part of what God is. Man on the other hand cannot exist without existence. I am not sure if you understand this but man cannot cause anything to to exist because it's not part of his nature.

The best man can do is use what has been given or created already. For example, when we say man is capable of creating ideas, what we are saying in effect is that man can use the brain that has been given already to bring about what we call ideas.

The only one who can truly create or better still: cause stuff into existence, is the one who has existence as part of its nature. It is God's nature to exist.




Now you are getting somethings, though not everything. Let's review some concepts that arose from your comment above:

1) Energy is eternal, i.e it has no beginning and will have no end.

2) Energy cannot be destroyed. In other words, nothing can destroy or create energy. Simply put: Energy is Omnipotent.

3) Energy is everywhere i.e it is Omniscience.

4) Etc.

The point where we may disagree is that I believe this Energy is Consciousness aka God while you believe it is not.




Your opinion.



Nah!

All depends on what you call life. Is a car alive?




God created Lucifer. He did not create evil.



Nah!

It shows love.



Funny how you believe something that lacks consciousness created consciousness and you still hold the view that this unconscious thing is rational? Can rationality come from irrationality?



Your opinion!




The above shows that all you say about Energy being eternal and uncreated, you do not believe.

you already posted this and i already replied it, find that..... you are confused, is your white master's burden so much on you today?

ooman:

you already posted this and i already replied it, find that..... you are confused, is your white master's burden so much on you today?

@ooman, sorry but am going to come at you and any other atheist here on the bolded...i have kept quiet on it but am going to say something about it.

Now, for some time i noticed that majority of NL atheist always use the word 'YOUR WHITE MASTER' on religious folks here in this forum...but indirectly and directly the NL(nairaland) atheist here too dont know that their atheistic belief or concept is from the so called white master..so if you are accusing someone of having a white master dont forget that you as an atheist have a 'WHITE MASTER' based on your own choosen ideology.

striktlymi:

How do Christians portray God?

as a wicked, bias, discriminating, most-worship me and believe in my son or go to Hell God, a god that claims to be holy but allows evil. pls the list is so long, I dont want to type too much.
Any reasonable religious person can see that the way Christians portray him is degrading

ooman: just when i thought this was getting interesting...

Hmmm...

And you don't think you are the one making it uninteresting?

ooman:
vacuum, empty. Note that if you claim there was never something like empty, you are automatically accepting something pre-existed your god!

Vacuum, empty and the likes are not "nothing" in the sense that you made it seem. Emptiness contains space and as such it is not exactly "nothing". Are you saying that we posit that God came from "space"?

ooman:
if only you will expatiate on this, then i will understand, your highness...

Read again was all I asked.

ooman:
is this suppose to be a rational argument for how a complex god can exist? oh pls, this only appeals to emotions, nothing logical here....

That was supposed to be an explanation to: why man can not create.

ooman:
not until you tell me how energy can arrange itself into a conscious personal god, capable of creating a universe.

Do you realise that you keep making comments that suggest that the Universe does not exist? The Universe was brought forth into existence by this Energy we speak of. We have already established that Energy is eternal but the Universe has a starting point which was brought about by this eternal Energy.

Despite the Universe having a beginning, it cannot become non-existent because of that from which it came. In order words, it now share one of the attributes of this Energy, which is an inability for it to be destroyed by anything known to man.

Now coming to your question: the simple proof is seen in man and every conscious being. What makes us conscious? I guess your answer might be the brain. But this is not exactly correct.

The brain is not solely responsible for our consciousness. Energy is! Energy gave the brain its ability to aid consciousness in man. Energy cannot give consciousness unless it is also conscious.

P.S: Energy did not arrange itself into a conscious being. Energy existed and in it lies consciousness. You call it Energy but I call it God. Without Energy there will be nothing like consciousness.

ooman:
in a sense, yes. but in the conventional no. if life is building up and breaking down at the chemical level, and if this is what cars also do to function, then, we can say they dont think because they are not as complex as us.

but then, to move on, nope, they aint alive.

and whats your point here?

Okay, cool! At least I now know your meaning when you say "life".

ooman:
ok, so there are something god didnt create right? what about the lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets, sent to a king in the old testament, who created that?

No!!!

Somethings are created while others are made from what was created.

ooman:
calm down with the excitement.... i never said that which you claim.... i said a god who killed himself to pay himself a debt of others is too irrational to create the universe...read, understand, then reply..

I try to respond to comments that make sense to me. Do you realize that you make comments some times which do not address my query?

ooman:
no.

does your god have energy or is he energy?

He is Energy.

macof: as a wicked, bias, discriminating, most-worship me and believe in my son or go to Hell God, a god that claims to be holy but allows evil. pls the list is so long, I dont want to type too much.
Any reasonable religious person can see that the way Christians portray him is degrading

What is important to you? The way someone portrays you or the way you are?

ooman:

There is nothing like a soul or spirit. When a human dies, it does like other animals. It is dead and done with, it lives no more, no afterlife.

How do you know?

striktlymi:

What is important to you? The way someone portrays you or the way you are?

The way I am is how I am and thats how people that claim to know me should portray me, If otherwise there would be problems for those who dont me to understand me.

macof: as a wicked, bias, discriminating, most-worship me and believe in my son or go to Hell God, a god that claims to be holy but allows evil. pls the list is so long, I dont want to type too much.
Any reasonable religious person can see that the way Christians portray him is degrading

@macof, the pagan god aint no nice guy too if thats what you want to aim at..however, i believe that your arguement should be thrrown at ooman and not striktlymi

macof: The way I am is how I am and thats how people that claim to know me should portray me, If otherwise there would be problems for those who dont me to understand me.

What is important is the way you are and not how someone portrays you.

Uyi Iredia:

God cannot create what he doesn't have. We humans say one can't give what he doesn't have. If God is only good, NO EVIL. Then there should be no evil. Since there is evil, God is either responsible or he is wrongly said to be ONLY GOOD: your excuse doesn't hold water.

That was not meant to be an excuse but the truth.

If God is only good then there should be no evil? Are you sure it works that way?

Similar to saying that if God is life then there should be no death. It does not follow.

What exactly do you call evil? And who or what determines what is evil?

joel lala:


@macof, the pagan god aint no nice guy too if thats what you want to aim at..however, i believe that your arguement should be thrrown at ooman and not striktlymi

NO the pagan gods not GOD aint so nice because they dont have to be, Their duty is to keep balance. they are nice sometimes and mean at other times. This is the very instruction given to them by their father(the supreme God). And going by my Religion u dont have to worship the gods, its not neccessary, But there are people who worship when they need help from the gods and still continue to worship out of gratitude.

joel lala:


@ooman, sorry but am going to come at you and any other atheist here on the bolded...i have kept quiet on it but am going to say something about it.

Now, for some time i noticed that majority of NL atheist always use the word 'YOUR WHITE MASTER' on religious folks here in this forum...but indirectly and directly the NL(nairaland) atheist here too dont know that their atheistic belief or concept is from the so called white master..so if you are accusing someone of having a white master dont forget that you as an atheist have a 'WHITE MASTER' based on your own choosen ideology.

sorry but contrary to you, i dont worship them.. that makes the big difference here...

striktlymi:

How do you know?

no one can prove that the soul of animals goes down and that of man goes up - Solomon

macof: NO the pagan gods not GOD aint so nice because they dont have to be, Their duty is to keep balance. they are nice sometimes and mean at other times. This is the very instruction given to them by their father(the supreme God). And going by my Religion u dont have to worship the gods, its not neccessary, But there are people who worship when they need help from the gods and still continue to worship out of gratitude.

So the pagan supreme god gave instructions to other gods to be wicked sometimes to humans right? Does that make him a good, all loving god? I will suggest that u guys stop painting other people religion to be black in an indirect attempt to make yours righteous..if your belief is the best then prove it.

striktlymi:

Hmmm...

And you don't think you are the one making it uninteresting?

i think contrary to that...

striktlymi: Vacuum, empty and the likes are not "nothing" in the sense that you made it seem. Emptiness contains space and as such it is not exactly "nothing". Are you saying that we posit that God came from "space"?

ok so empty space is something to you right? space is the region in which something exist, i couldnt have suggested what you claimed i did. I am saying its impossible for your god to come from anywhere uncreated.

striktlymi: Read again was all I asked.

but there is nothing to read...and if you think there is, point me to it...

striktlymi: That was supposed to be an explanation to: why man can not create.

and its supposed to be evidence for why god can create?

striktlymi: Do you realise that you keep making comments that suggest that the Universe does not exist? The Universe was brought forth into existence by this Energy we speak of. We have already established that Energy is eternal but the Universe has a starting point which was brought about by this eternal Energy.

Despite the Universe having a beginning, it cannot become non-existent because of that from which it came. In order words, it now share one of the attributes of this Energy, which is an inability for it to be destroyed by anything known to man.

except by its own natural processes, like crumbling

striktlymi: Now coming to your question: the simple proof is seen in man and every conscious being. What makes us conscious? I guess your answer might be the brain. But this is not exactly correct.

The brain is not solely responsible for our consciousness. Energy is! Energy gave the brain its ability to aid consciousness in man. Energy cannot give consciousness unless it is also conscious.

P.S: Energy did not arrange itself into a conscious being. Energy existed and in it lies consciousness. You call it Energy but I call it God. Without Energy there will be nothing like consciousness.

story story, this sounds like am reading a story book in primary 1. Am I in pry 1 again Striky?

Just some questions, if conscious is exclusive to the brain, and if energy is consciousness
q1-why do people run mad?
q2-why do we forget things?
q3-why do we die when the brain dies but other organ are functional?
q4-why does brain defect cause personality disorder?

you have no argument for a conscious energy...

striktlymi: No!!!

Somethings are created while others are made from what was created.

well, if what was created didnt have the capability of being turned, it couldnt be turned. In order words, if your god's works couldnt be corrupted, if they were perfect, then they can't be corrupted....hope you get that!

striktlymi: I try to respond to comments that make sense to me. Do you realize that you make comments some times which do not address my query?

allegations without proof...empty!!!

striktlymi: He is Energy.

It takes many billion of brain cells to achieve conscious, i refuse to take it on faith that energy can be conscious in itself.

And you have offered absolutely no proof as to how energy can be conscious.

Now, considering your logic that energy is conscious, and so man is conscious. We also know that everything living or not contains energy, therefore, if energy is conscious, then everything powered by energy (and that is everything) should also be conscious. But this isnt so, therefore, the only possible conclusion is that energy is not conscious, but specific cell connections bring consciousness. Energy is just a force, of four fundamental types.

If there were three fundamental energy types, am certain you would have claimed that is your father, son and holy spirit, but then its not, so make up the fourth person.

ooman:

no one can prove that the soul of animals goes down and that of man goes up - Solomon

And that's how you know that they don't exist? I thought you only assert what you can prove?

striktlymi:

And that's how you know that they don't exist? I thought you only assert what you can prove?

yep, defects in brain that lead to personality disorder is the proof you seek! if man truly has a spirit, defects in the brain shouldnt lead to personality disorder