Questions That Bug Believers In God - Religion (5) - Nairaland
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| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 9:56am On Oct 12, 2013 |
striktlymi: Sorry for the delay, I have been very busy.  striktlymi: You still ignore the fundamental questions here... ok.. striktlymi: 1) Can Energy be created?Nope  striktlymi: 2) Can an 'unconscious agent' give rise to consciousness?? yep, and it takes billions of cell connections and billions of years to achieve that. No unconscious agent can make energy, in itself conscious... striktlymi: By definition, it is impossible to conceive nature without Energy. If there is no Energy, there won't be a "natural process". In order words the world cannot just exist without Energy. yep striktlymi: We have already agreed on the fact that Energy is uncreated, and I posit that to exist is to have Energy. yep, again striktlymi: These are not mutually exclusive. Nothing can come into existence if it has not been acted upon by Energy. yep, again striktlymi: Hence, my position of an uncreated creator (Energy) is not something we cannot wrap our minds around. The point of our divergence can better be appreciated when we ask the question: Can anything give what he/she/it does not have?? Energy is responsible for consciousness and for it to give consciousness, it must possess that ability.  just when i was enjoying myself, you totally betrayed logic..... does energy posses light, colors? Can it give light, colors? Does energy have sound? can it sound? does energy have cells? can it give cells? energy gives what it doesnt have when it becomes converted to different things in different conditions.... you totally spoiled my fun here  striktlymi: I agree totally but note that the complexities and arrangements you speak of were brought about by this conscious Energy. And what brought about the consciousness in energy.... because energy is not conscious in itself... is electric energy conscious? what about solar energy? sound energy? no form of conscious energy can exist, energy can only power consciousness, brought about by cell connections.... striktlymi: I need to understand what you mean by personality because there is a way one would define it such that it can be attributed to inanimate objects too. personality, as could feel regret and so send flood, feel love and so kill himself for our sake, be so intelligent and so create life, sex starved and so rape Mary, so disappointed and so create hell, so impressed and so create heaven, wants friendship and so request your servitude and slavery..... striktlymi: @Bold: Are you saying that consciousness is from the brain? yep, yep, yep, no brain, no consciousness. Show me a conscious thing, and i will show you its brain, except you want to claim stones are conscious... but before we go deeper, let me understand your definition of consciousness, is it being reactive? or having a personality? ..... if its been reactive, then energy is conscious, as you claim  , but if its having a personality , then energy is not  .... striktlymi: Demonstrate it. by claiming that because energy powers the brain,it therefore has to be conscious... striktlymi: This is what I said: ok, my answer is the brain, whats your answer and why? striktlymi: Yet again, the above does not follow... this is an irritating excuse and your illustration is weak striktlymi: China is notorious for producing a number of fake goods but this same China can produce top quality goods. The fact that the Chinese decide to produce these substandard goods does not in any way negate their ability to produce quality goods. China produces inferior goods to the poor and quality goods to the rich, now apply this excuse and this answer to your god. Why would he wanna create a corruptible creations, if he doesnt have corruption in himself, and corruptible himself, considering China has both the poor and the rich in itself and has to feed all... striktlymi: Now you suggest once again that Energy is of one 'kind'. Let me attempt an explanation... #irritating... you know, am not even debating this claim for now, what am just asking is how the heck did this energy gain its consciousness? Did it just downed on it? Or was it created by a higher, more complex "conscious" energy...... striktlymi: It's 'creatures' whether they have this gift of life or not, retain some characteristics of this ultimate source of Energy. Top on the list is existence. Once it causes something to exist, that thing cannot just become non-existent. waste of nairaland space striktlymi: As I have explained before, this first conscious agent (Energy) is eternal, uncreated and is existence itself. It is its nature to exist. So there is no 'how', 'when' or 'what' etc with it. It just is! ok, but how did it gain consciousness, or can consciousness just be? And if consciousness can just be, and if we have lot of forms of energy, why then do you believe in just one god...All these sources are supposed to be conscious too, so if you are right, there are probably a billion and one gods out there  ....striktlymi: By "conscious agent" I simply mean the source of our consciousness. The above would only be valid if Energy was created. there is no source of our consciousness because that source will also require a source. A river may be a source of water for a community, but have you seen a river without a source? consciousness is only brought about by cell connections, powered by energy... period, energy is not conscious, nor have a personality. only when it has a personality can it choose (freewill) what to give life and what not... striktlymi: In other words, Energy is existence from which all things have their existence. Now you are getting it; hopefully. yep, as long as you dont claim consciousness for this energy, and then claim consciousness can just be. striktlymi: I did not say: "everything powered by Energy is conscious". if energy is consciousness, if it has consciousness in itself, then every form of it is conscious. And everything that it makes up should be conscious. striktlymi: Does Energy have a creator? as long as its not conscious, it cannot be created or destroyed... immediately it become conscious, it requires a greater creator.... consciousness does not just pop into existence, it requires selection, as already explained by evolution. If everything contains energy, then energy is the simplest form of everything, it therefore doesnt have the complexity to be conscious... |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 9:58am On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: can you just agree with yourself what you wanna debate? is it 'evolution is white man's idea' or evolution of life, because i can get started with that, but its not necessary, not sure your IQ can carry the logic, if it could, it would have... |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 10:42am On Oct 12, 2013 |
ooman: Is it too hard to comprehend..Evolution is a white man's concept with contradictions too just like religion that you always battle with.. |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 10:55am On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: it will do your ego well if you could point to those contradictions.... |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 11:51am On Oct 12, 2013 |
ooman: Good...you may now understand why it is impossible for God to have a creator. ooman: You say an unconscious agent can bring about consciousness...but you still hold the view that this unconscious agent cannot give consciousness to Energy? Don't you see the contradiction? I am not going to harp on the ish with your comment being at best theoretical but what I will not fail to notice is your willingness to accept that evolution and those cells you mentioned are responsible for consciousness without a recourse to some conscious agent. Think about it ooman...if there was one mistake in the evolutionary process you brought to the fore, what would have happened to our ability to become conscious? One wrong brain connection would mean the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness. The randomness you suggest is impractical. Our ability to become conscious can only be brought about by some deliberate act which has its source from the Energy I speak of. And for an act to be deliberate, a conscious agent must be involved. Consciousness cannot come from a random unconscious agent. ooman: Cool! To take this further...the Energy I talk of is what I call God and it is conscious. ooman: Double cool!! Now replace the word 'Energy' with God, the comment becomes: striktlymi: We have already agreed on the fact that ooman: Cool! ooman: C'mon ooman... What exactly does it take to radiate light? What does it take to perceive with the senses? Or what does it take to hear or make sounds? All depends on Energy. Remember we agreed that everything in existence is brought about by Energy and as such all those items you mentioned are possessed by Energy and not something else because without Energy they wouldn't have existed in the first place. Energy gives what it has...so the saying that one can't give what it does not have holds true for all time. ooman: The bold is like asking what brought about Energy. It's in the nature of Energy to be conscious and it gives this ability to whomever it wills. ooman: I believe I have addressed the above in a previous post... Everything there is in existence, including electricity, the solar, sound etc were all brought about by this conscious Energy and those items retain some its attribute(s) but whether or not an item would become conscious is totally abt the discretion of this conscious Energy. ooman: If Energy only powers consciousness then it implies that some other thing or agent is responsible for the existence of consciousness. This is not correct because everything in existence was brought about by Energy, and that includes consciousness. ooman: What informs your belief that consciousness is from the brain? ooman: Consciousness is not just about being reactive or having a personality. Note that God does not have a 'personality' strictly speaking. Yes, we have given it a lot of attributes, a lot of which has to do with our experience of it but this is not saying that he has a 'personality'. Consciousness in this sense should be an ability to demonstrate awareness and a will. This I use in a limited sense. ooman: Energy does not just power the brain...it brought it into existence. ooman: My answer has always been Energy because everything has its existence from Energy. ooman: I knew you won't get it. The point here is, creating something 'corruptible' does not imply that the perfect cannot be created. ooman: Because he has a demonstrable will and note that nothing truly corrupts. What we have is a transformation. ooman: The above is like asking what created Energy. With Energy comes consciousness. Energy is and was not created, hence no one or thing gave it consciousness. Just like it is it nature to exist, so too it is its nature to be conscious. ooman: See above! ooman: All forms of Energy have their source or being from this one Ultimate energy source aka God. I do acknowledge the existence of other energy sources (gods) which derive their essence from this one source but I choose to follow the Ultimate source instead of the wannabes. ooman: Still like saying that Energy requires a greater Energy to exist. ooman: Cell connections exist because of Energy. They are derivatives and not the Ultimate source. They do not bring about consciousness...they are only tools used by this ultimate Energy to aid consciousness. ooman: Can Energy just be? ooman: Nah mehn... It does not work that way. Man has the ability to say the truth, this does not mean that everything man says is true. Being conscious does not mean everything created must be conscious. ooman: That's funny! Energy need not be unconscious for it to be indestructible. Indestructibility is in its nature, just like consciousness. ooman: Nope! ooman: An ability to select implicitly suggests some level of consciousness. ooman: Don't tell me you are unaware that everything has some form of Energy. |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 2:40pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
striktlymi: God is conscious, so if man, because of his consciousness must be created, then your god must be too. If your god is uncreated, then man wasnt..... that is established... striktlymi: You say an unconscious agent can bring about consciousness...but you still hold the view that this unconscious agent cannot give consciousness to Energy? Don't you see the contradiction? what contradiction? i said nothing can make energy in itself conscious. Consciousness requires billions of cell connections.... Energy in itself cannot gain consciousness by any possible means.... striktlymi: I am not going to harp on the ish with your comment being at best theoretical but what I will not fail to notice is your willingness to accept that evolution and those cells you mentioned are responsible for consciousness without a recourse to some conscious agent. yep, because that conscious agent would suggest a conscious creator itself, and that goes on forever, only evolution, which is change, requires no creator striktlymi: Think about it ooman...if there was one mistake in the evolutionary process you brought to the fore, what would have happened to our ability to become conscious? One wrong brain connection would mean the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness. The randomness you suggest is impractical. isnt this practical? Dont people run mad, become schizophreniac, psychotic etc all because of simple cell misconfiguration? What you need to understand is the process of natural selection, how good genes get retained and bad ones get off the population.. i now see your problem, you really dont understand the processes of evolution... a little study, and god will leave your life too like he was never there, just as he left mine. striktlymi: Our ability to become conscious can only be brought about by some deliberate act which has its source from the Energy I speak of. And for an act to be deliberate, a conscious agent must be involved. Consciousness cannot come from a random unconscious agent. still, this conscious agent will require a creator if consciousness MUST be brought about by another conscious agent.... just think about it.... this goes on forever...this is why we cannot propose a conscious agent for the existence of consciousness... Evolution is not just random, it is guided by possibility and what favors survival....consciousness is possible and it favors survival obviously, so randomness, as controlled by evolution, can bring about consciousness through cell connections, no process can make energy in itself conscious... striktlymi: Cool! To take this further...the Energy I talk of is what I call God and it is conscious. call energy whatever, but i refuse to believe its conscious until you can demonstrate how it can gain its consciousness... striktlymi: Double cool!! Now replace the word 'Energy' with God, the comment becomes: do what you will, you still havent demonstrated how this energy of yours gained its consciousness... striktlymi: true, but energy in its pure form does not give light, or sound, or colors, or life, or consciousness, it has to be changed, converted into other forms for it to posses these properties.... and this has been my point, energy in itself cannot be conscious, give light, or make sound you are confusing what energy powers, with the energy itself.....there is where you need clarification and i hope i have done that... and here it is again..what we debate is energy in its pure form, not in its concentrated form, electric energy has to be converted by a material means into light energy before it can give light... energy in itself does not give light, or colors, or consciousness.... this process of conversion is change, and this is evolution striktlymi: The bold is like asking what brought about Energy. It's in the nature of Energy to be conscious and it gives this ability to whomever it wills. I have never been disappointed by you like you just did. #Pls, in your next reply, just tell me you believe consciousness is a simple property that can just exist, and i will call this debate quit with you... striktlymi: I believe I have addressed the above in a previous post... by saying energy is just conscious right? so to you, conscious is a simple phenomenon right? striktlymi: If Energy only powers consciousness then it implies that some other thing or agent is responsible for the existence of consciousness. This is not correct because everything in existence was brought about by Energy, and that includes consciousness. the bold is correct, consciousness requires cell connections, powered by energy.... @unbold: energy in itself is just energy, it has to be converted before it can be useful... its called potential energy. your position is like saying because dams power energy conversion, dams therefore have electricity in them, not just that, but everything electricity powers, like computers pre-exist in the dam....i hope you see the fallacy in your position now... striktlymi: What informs your belief that consciousness is from the brain? that's because i know of no other consciousness outside the brain, except you can point me to something that is conscious without a brain, #dont point to your imaginary conscious energy....that will piss me off, you have no proof for that... striktlymi: Consciousness is not just about being reactive or having a personality. Note that God does not have a 'personality' strictly speaking. Yes, we have given it a lot of attributes, a lot of which has to do with our experience of it but this is not saying that he has a 'personality'. as long as the bolded is in your definition of energy, i refuse to accept...you cannot prove energy has a will...common its energy, its what we use to power our phones, cars, computers etc...is that really the god you worship?? striktlymi: Energy does not just power the brain...it brought it into existence. in a sense, i agree, as long as that doesnt translate into energy having consciousness by reason of bringing the brain into existence, by making it up... striktlymi: My answer has always been Energy because everything has its existence from Energy. if the brain is conscious because it has its existence from a conscious energy, are stone now unconscious because they have their existence from an unconscious energy? this is why your logic is impossible... striktlymi: I knew you won't get it. The point here is, creating something 'corruptible' does not imply that the perfect cannot be created. therefore, the point is creating something corruptible has a purpose, so stop making excuses for your god, evil exists because your god has a purpose for evil... striktlymi: Because he has a demonstrable will and note that nothing truly corrupts. What we have is a transformation. and transformation changes purpose, so it is corruption....think... striktlymi: The above is like asking what created Energy. With Energy comes consciousness. Energy is and was not created, hence no one or thing gave it consciousness. Just like it is it nature to exist, so too it is its nature to be conscious. consciousness is not as simple as energy that can exist forever, if it is, consciousness wouldnt be corruptible, like running mad...am tired of explaining this simple concept... if energy is conscious, then consciousness is also forever, therefore, brain misconfiguration should not bring an end to consciousness, since energy makes the brain up, and energy is eternal...so think about this... and it cant just be the nature of something to be conscious, consciousness requires complexity, you are not making sense..... energy is too simple to be conscious....... striktlymi: All forms of Energy have their source or being from this one Ultimate energy source aka God. I do acknowledge the existence of other energy sources (gods) which derive their essence from this one source but I choose to follow the Ultimate source instead of the wannabes. guy, you are too mythical, you should be a babalawo or something just imagine this, you now sound like Folykaze, macof, ghostofsparta and all of them... you do realize i can claim this ultimate source is the Flying Pig right? there is no proof for a particular god, its all a state of mind... striktlymi: Still like saying that Energy requires a greater Energy to exist.except the energy i talk of is not conscious, so it doesnt require a greater energy, but consciousness requires another medium, now what medium could bring about consciousness in energy, considering there was nothing before energy? striktlymi: Cell connections exist because of Energy. They are derivatives and not the Ultimate source. They do not bring about consciousness...they are only tools used by this ultimate Energy to aid consciousness. yes, this is true because nothing in itself is conscious. But together, nature has produced consciousness. So stop contradicting yourself by claiming there can be a conscious energy... striktlymi: Can Energy just be? as long as its not conscious, yep, consciousness cannot just be, and that is what we debate. striktlymi: Nah mehn... you still dont get it, energy didnt just create everything, it makes up everything, this is why everything must be conscious, if energy is conscious...hope you get it now. striktlymi: That's funny! Energy need not be unconscious for it to be indestructible. Indestructibility is in its nature, just like consciousness. consciousness is not an irreducible unit, if it is, brain misconfiguration wouldnt cause lack of consciousness.... can you think about that? striktlymi: Nope! and no because consciousness can just be? thats too dumb to be coming from you, am really disappointed... striktlymi: An ability to select implicitly suggests some level of consciousness. selection as explained by evolution requires no consciousness, its what favors survival that survivals, and so get selected, nothing more. striktlymi: Don't tell me you are unaware that everything has some form of Energy. how does this address my post? if everything has some form of energy, and if energy is consicous, then everything is conscious, according to you, because consciousness makes everything up, do you get that? |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 3:50pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
ooman: Ok then, please it will do your ego well if you could explain the following below...Please ensure that you give reasonable answers, no beating about the bush or talking gibberish. Contradictions: 1. From the concept of evolution, evolution says that animals evolved as they progressed the evolutionary scale, so, If man evolved from apes like you said, why is the so called inferior ape family still existing till today?...Why haven't they evolved totally.? or did evolution forget some species? 2. How come the modern apes we have around today have no fossil record or did they just spring out of thin air? 3. If humans actually came from apes, then where did apes come from? ( ps:i need a sensible answer here)...Remember you said it is impossible for something to come out of nothing. 4. If evolution is claiming as you believed, that life itself emerged as a result of pure coincidence and natural phenomenon, then explain to us here the origin of life with that pure chance or coincidence. 5. Why is there no specific evidence for a biological change in the brain structure since your so called Homo sapiens appeared in the fossil records many years ago? 6. It has been discovered/ exposed in 1953, the hoax your white master tried to use to deceive the masses to accept evolution concept..The hoax involved some scientist that tried connecting human and ape bones together and was artificially aged to draw up an apelike missing link and presented to the press (Insert from link: The significance of the specimen remained the subject of controversy until it was exposed in 1953 as a forgery, consisting of the lower jawbone of an orangutan deliberately combined with the skull of a fully developed modern human.).. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man 7. If man evolved from apes, then why don't we have the hypothetical ape-like ancestor, the real missing link? Atleast there should be some evidence of it. 8. It has been discovered recently that the fossils records available actually shows a distinct and separate origin for apes and human beings..So why is there no evidence linking man to the apelike creature you want us to believe in. 9. I want to ask, what actually can you give as an explanation that caused evolution to produce modern human beings with a distinctively highly specialized brain all of a sudden? Please give sensible answers. 3 Likes |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 4:24pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: these arent contradictions, these questions are as a result of your illiteracy... reading a little biology will clarify things read some here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution it contains the fossils you seek |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 4:37pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
ooman: So weak..I knew it that you cant give a logical and sensible explanation.. Nw you post a link that cant explain any of my points above...i also guess the link also explains how your white masters tried to maliciously decieve the masses by decietfully connecting an oragotang bone and a modern human bone together..am glad they were exposed for their fraud...stop worshipping your white masters 1 Like |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 4:40pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: How do you and olaadegbu do it? Is it some evolutionary trait or something? #I am talking about the ability to talk ignorantly out of your buttholes 1 Like |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 4:57pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
Logicboy03: When you stop being ignorant you will see the light.. @ooman asked for contradictions which i gave and he sheepishly just posted a link that says nothing to my points..when the christians/muslims do exactly what ooman did right now, you guys call them ignorant white slaves..so is that not what you and ooman are right nw..using the same ignorant way of escape you all accuse the christians/muslims of? Until you stop thinking out of your buttholes you will always be a white man slave. 2 Likes |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 4:58pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: drink a cup of cold water, perhaps then your thinking ability will return #stop derailing my thread |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 5:04pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: look, we are tired of playing the game with you......you are ignorant about evolution....when we explain and post links, you laugh at us- after all our hardwork To many atheists on nairaland, it is now more effective to laugh/mock your ignorance. |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 5:09pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: do you even understand the meaning of contradiction at all? You claimed contradiction in evolution, when asked for it, you produced questions, which the link i posted already answered, so what you need to do now is to pick your dictionary, and learn some new English, like the meaning of contradiction... then come back here |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 5:09pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
ooman: Go and sleep..when you wake up you will think properly and know the kind of people you call names..and as long as you dont accuse religious people of the same act you and logicboy indirectly and directly commit, you wont see me in a shiiit of a thread like this..am out of here until you misyarn again..#amoutofhere# |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 5:13pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
ooman: Guy, pls from the link you posted bring out the answers to all what i post and stop talking gibberish..my gosh..you guys behave exactly like the christian/muslims you criticize. 1 Like |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 5:16pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
joel lala: good riddance |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 5:21pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
Logicboy03: Your ignorance is showing all over here..and nw religious people and everyone here knows that you are just a white man's pawn..imagine the white men were exposed for fraud in respect to evolution in 1953 and you still believe and worship them..SMH..i want to leave as ooman pleaded ok..#Amoutofhere# |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 5:23pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
ooman: But am keeping an eye on you and logicboy in case you misyarn...bye |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 2:16pm On Oct 13, 2013 |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 5:05pm On Oct 13, 2013 |
striktlymi: Hey boss, ok |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 9:58am On Oct 16, 2013 |
Finally, some time for this... ooman: The bold is incorrect... Man is not created simply because he is conscious. There are a lot of things that seemingly lack consciousness but are created. As I have mentioned before, man and other conscious beings created became conscious because there exist a conscious agent who was uncreated. ooman: In effect, this is your argument... Energy existed of itself... Energy caused everything in existence to be, including this billion of cell connections in the brain... Energy is responsible for the consciousness in man and other created conscious beings.... Energy is neither conscious nor have the capacity for consciousness. I hope you now see the contradictions? ooman, the fact remains, if Energy is not capable of consciousness, there is no way it can bring about consciousness. ooman: I hope you do realize that evolution is a process which was created? If you say evolution requires no creator then you are saying that we have two things that are uncreated: Energy and Evolution which of course is not correct. Without Energy, there won't be anything like evolution. @Bold: That is exactly my point. Man is conscious, hence he needs something with the ability for consciousness to create him....if that process goes on ad-infinitum then it would only mean that this conscious agent extends to eternity. The only thing we agree extends to eternity is Energy, hence its consciousness and I have already posited that this conscious Energy is what I call God. ooman: Take away Energy from that process of natural selection and tell me what you have left. ooman: I have addressed the bold already. ooman: I am the one who is supposed to be arguing the above... I agree that evolution is not just some random event like some Atheists wants folks to believe. It is guided by Energy and for Energy to be able to guide this process, it has to have some sought of demonstrable will which implies consciousness. ooman: Lol!!! The above is very funny..."randomness as controlled by Evolution"?? My dear ooman, evolution in itself cannot control anything...it is a process that is guided by Energy. Energy gives meaning to evolution, not the other way round. ooman: The above is like asking me to demonstrate how Energy is eternal. Can you demonstrate it? I have tried to show you how impractical it is for Energy to possess the ability to give consciousness without itself having that characteristic. This should suffice for now. ooman: I have explained why the demonstration you seek in concrete terms is impractical. Maybe you should show me how practical it is to demonstrate that Energy lacks consciousness. ooman: What guides that change and conversion if not Energy? Which still gives credence to my argument that Energy possess a demonstrable will. ooman: My guy, this Energy in its pure form was what caused everything into existence and still holds everything in existence or if you will: "powers everything". If we take away Energy, there is no existence. The flesh we have was forged by Energy...so realistically, it is not just about powering but holding everything in existence. That's why we are all connected...Energy aka God is the link. ooman: Guy consciousness is an attribute of Energy just like Eternity is. ooman: Let me explain this... Potential Energy has its source from this conscious Energy that brought all things into existence. Existence cannot come about with just potential Energy. If your argument is that Energy is just Energy i.e dormant until converted into use then you are saying that something made use of Energy to create the Universe. This still is incorrect. We agree that Energy is uncaused i.e uncreated and it is the only thing that extends to Eternity. If Energy is the first cause and it is 'dormant' or simply put: awaiting something to use it or transform it, then you are saying that there is something that either predates Energy or caused it to be. We know this is not correct. Energy existed of itself, Energy drives other processes aka it is the first cause...an ability to drive other processes or cause other things to be shows that Energy is not just dormant even in its raw state...it is an active force. It has to be in order to cause existence in man or hold the Universe in existence. This also demonstrates that Energy has to be conscious. ooman: "Dams power Energy conversion"?? Where will the dam be without Energy? Without Energy, there would have been nothing like a dam. ooman: The brain or Energy which comes first? What brought the brain into existence? Without Energy will the brain even function? Answer those questions and you would get my response to your post above. ooman: Lol!!! I have already addressed the above. Energy exists, it caused all to be, it holds everything in existence, we are all offshoot of this Energy and whatever we use to power anything and that thing are from Energy....we are all connected and the link is God aka Energy. ooman: Let's take another approach.... With all the connections in the brain, can the brain make itself conscious? If your answer is yes, then how? If your answer is no, then it follows that the brain and its billion connections in themselves do not hold the secret to consciousness. Consciousness is brought about only by something this conscious Energy can give. ooman: No!!! I believe I have explained this before. The difference between the consciousness noticed in man and say the unconsciousness noticed in rocks is DEMONSTRABLE WILL this conscious Energy possess. Because there is a will, this Energy can determine what it gives consciousness to. ooman: Sorry but that's not what the debate is about. If you want to discuss the above, create another thread for it. ooman: How does transformation change purpose and I am trying to understand the relevance of the statement above. ooman: Who said consciousness ends with brain misconfiguration? Consciousness is forever. ooman: The next thing you will say is that Energy is too simple to cause everything into existence and hold their existence. ooman: But there is evidence of a particular Energy that caused all things to exist? Is an eternal Energy a state of mind? ooman: I have addressed the above previously. ooman: What you are saying is that Nature just brought consciousness from out of the blues?? Note that this Nature you talk about is driven by Energy...Anyways, no one can give what he or she does not have. If Energy does not possess consciousness, it cannot give it. ooman: I have demonstrated that for Energy to cause anything to be, it must have a demonstrable will or force if you like. It can do nothing otherwise. To have a demonstrable will is to be conscious, hence consciousness is not just a property of its own but an attribute of this eternal Energy. Its similar to saying that eternity as it relates to Energy, is not just a property of its own, it is an attribute of Energy. ooman: I have explained the above before and in my explanation I said that the reason why everything is not conscious is because this Energy has a demonstrable will. It can decide what it gives consciousness to or not. ooman: I have addressed the above before. |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 9:36pm On Dec 08, 2013 |
striktlymi: Finally, some time for this... your state of self delusion cannot be cured |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 6:27am On Dec 09, 2013 |
ooman: ...and that is your argument? You sound like one using Hellfire to threaten another instead of addressing whatever ish logically. #Welcome back though! |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by Nobody: 7:39am On Dec 09, 2013 |
ooman: 1. Their argument against atheism is: nothing comes from nothing, yet they believe a complex conscious god could pop into existence from nothing, and not just that, create everything from nothing. Because we make that statement from scientific point of view. nothing comes uncaused from nothing in the physical realm. But in the spiritual realm, which science cant say anything about, something can exist from nothing. Supernatural power is now involved while science deals with only natural. That supernatural power exists has been admitted by sincere scientists during an experiment involving ESP. You can explore that if you like. Something can come uncaused from nothing when you talk supernatural. 2. If nature as we know it was designed, and if everything that exists must be designed Again it is with the intention of proving to scientist that there must be a supernatural power that made Christians employ the bolded statement since it is a scientific fact that nothing comes uncaused from nothing, so an intelligent supernatural power must have kickstarted the first thing to exist in the physical realm because it is unthinkable to assert that something can come from nothing in the physical realm. This science agrees. BUT you cannot use that principle in the supernatural realm cos science cant explain the supernatural. What we want to establish is that scientifically, nothing comes uncause from nothing. If so, how then did the universe appear? that will lead us to establishing that something supernatural started the process. You cant escape it. But dont use that principle in the supernatural cos science cant explain anything there. the impossibilities in the natural can be achieved supernaturally. I dont know if you get the point. Science is about nature NOT 'supernatural'. But we want you to believe that 'supernatural' exists. 3. If God does not interfere in our affairs He interferes. 4. If the universe was created to support life Everything didnt come from God. unless you be specific. I take your everything to mean everything. 6. If god is all powerful God didnt kill himself. the doctrine of trinity is not biblical. the sacrifice of Jesus is made to God to relieve humans the false step which brought the penalty of death. |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 11:13pm On Dec 11, 2013 |
striktlymi: Well, sorry but your reply is nothing to make sense of... this time, your lake of knowledge of how stuff work in nature makes this debate unnecessary to continue. We know that cells are not conscious, yet connections of them bring consciousness. Electrons are not electricity, yet movement of them result in a charge. Consciousness did came from unconsciousness energy, but it is not a day's job, neither is it six day's job, it takes billions of years, and this is not the final state of the change. We dont need a conscious god to exist, because natural selection was sufficient for us, and because the compulsory need of a creator for our existence also makes compulsory the creator of this creator. And to say evolution was "created"? striktlymi: I think you know the answer, and i hope you see how the answer contradicts your very belief. First we have energy, then we have consciousness, never the other way around and never a constant path, meaning we dont have a god, and we dont have a conscious energy. striktlymi: With all the connections in the brain, can the brain make itself conscious? If your answer is yes, then how? If your answer is no, then it follows that the brain and its billion connections in themselves do not hold the secret to consciousness. Consciousness is brought about only by something this conscious Energy can give. Energy only powers the consciousness bought about by the brain. Without a brain, energy cannot bring about or have consciousness. Do not confuse yourself thinking you are being wise. Its like a computer, it has to be powered by electricity to function, but electricity is not the function it performs, and electricity does not have a word processor, etc in it, yet it powers word processing and graphics. So energy does not contain consciousness just as electricity does not contain word processors, but they both powers them. That should do it, that should make you understand your fallacy, and probably drop this irritating idea of a conscious energy. striktlymi: How does transformation change purpose and I am trying to understand the relevance of the statement above. You serious do not see the relevance of that? Well its simple: The fact that things change destroys purposeful creation. Because purposeful creation require things to retain their original configuration, and so retain their original purpose. When a chair changes to a table for instance, its purpose as a chair has been destroyed. So the fact that nature changes destroys any purposeful beginning it could have been thought to have. Hence, nature does not have a purposeful beginning that would suggest a mind. striktlymi: Who said consciousness ends with brain misconfiguration? Consciousness is forever. how ignorant, making a claim without no iota of supporting evidence. striktlymi: The next thing you will say is that Energy is too simple to cause everything into existence and hold their existence. its the 4 forces of nature that causes and hold in place. striktlymi: But there is evidence of a particular Energy that caused all things to exist? Is an eternal Energy a state of mind? You talk as if you understand what caused the universe. (note i didnt use "know", but "understand". You already claim you know, a god, which is just pitiful.) striktlymi: What you are saying is that Nature just brought consciousness from out of the blues?? Note that this Nature you talk about is driven by Energy...Anyways, no one can give what he or she does not have. If Energy does not possess consciousness, it cannot give it. That is where you miss it again, energy does not give consciousness, it only powers it. And dont forget you are the one saying eternal and complex conscious energy came out of the blues. I say consciousness result from brain configurations, just as graphics can come from a computer by programming, but the computer is not really the graphics, neither is the electricity that powers it. So consciousness is not energy, but energy powers it. So dont claim I said what i didint. striktlymi: I have demonstrated that for Energy to cause anything to be, it must have a demonstrable will or force if you like. It can do nothing otherwise. To have a demonstrable will is to be conscious, hence consciousness is not just a property of its own but an attribute of this eternal Energy. Its similar to saying that eternity as it relates to Energy, is not just a property of its own, it is an attribute of Energy. Sorry but you didint really demonstrate anything, you only made pathetic claims of a conscious energy. You believe the very thing you so desire to refute. You claim that our consciousness must be created, while you spend your time believing in an even more complex but uncreated consciousness. When will you activate your faculty of thinking? And more important, when will you become sincere with yourself? |
| Re: Questions That Bug Believers In God by ooman(m): 11:24pm On Dec 11, 2013 |
JMAN05: pathetic! JMAN05: God didnt kill himself. the doctrine of trinity is not biblical. the sacrifice of Jesus is made to God to relieve humans the false step which brought the penalty of death. what? i hope christians see this. |
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