MarkMiwerds:
God said His holy tithes were agricultural. You can continue to try to spin your silver and gold into the fabric of the tithes all you want. But no matter how much you say the tithe is money, the Bible proves you to be wrong.

God's Word reveals that His holy tithes were never carried to the New Testament Church, never collected in the New Testament Church, and never controlled by the New Testament Church. No matter how much you claim that the Church has authority to take God's holy tithes, the Bible proves you wrong.

I'll stick with what the Word of God says.

You allege that I have no fear of God, but I contend that it is just the opposite. I have a great respect for my Father. It is not me who is in blatant disregard for His Holy Word... Rather, it is you.

Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Describes you very well, doesn't it?

Bidam:
A simple common sense really. God NEVER gave man paper money. He gave man LAND as seen from the garden of Eden. It will be foolhardy for God to require paper money from man which is a medium of exchange or a legal tender used instead of the conventional and unorthodox trade by barter used for centuries.

A man's wealth is measured in land acquisition never in coins or paper money. Like i told zikkyy, the antithing mantraa of the tithes being ONLY agric is false and an error, no one is stopping the tither from SELLING a piece LAND( Joseph) and using a medium of exchange called money to give the Apostles(Acts 4:36). Abraham tithes was NEVER AGRIC. Everything we have on EARTH is gotten from land whether paper money,gold, diamond, oil, corn, wine etc. even man and animal was created from the dust of the earth.

The key word is WHETHER. leviticus is NOT a definition of tithe. Let's look at it once again.

Leviticus 27:30-33,

"And all the tithe of the land (God is taking to the children of Israel), [size=16pt]whether[/size] of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lords: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will redeem aught of his tithe, he shall add unto it a fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and that for which it is changed shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed."

Whether is a conjunction word used in indirect questions or used to offer CHOICES OR ALTERNATIVES. If it's the tither choice to offer his tenth as money to God so be it. Abel's offerings can't be the same as Cain. Jacob's vow of tithe can't be the same as Abraham. Even the Levites tithed through Abraham. In other words it predated the LAW and your life, just as Jesus predated the LAW.

If you want to use another lame and weak argument like circumcisions you can go ahead but also you will be ready to shun all dubious claims on marriage, worship, clothing and human government which have their foundation in the book of Genesis and since we know Christianity has its roots from Judaism you cannot discard one while holding on to the rest.

Moses wrote Genesis and Apart from Christ no MAN has the revelation of what God intends for his people like Moses not even Paul.

Brother, help me ask them why oil and wine are agricultural and paper money isn't.

PastorKun:
^^^


Olodo, the "whole nation" being referred to was the levite nation. It was the levites that were supposed to take tithes to the store house referred to in mal 3:8-10 and not the children of Israel in general.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Wetin we no go hear for nairaland? levite nation, lol.

Bidam:
You are going off course, read the preceding verse to know how the redeem is done. Redeem is simply to buy back, just as Christ redeem us from the curse of the LAW, the question is, is it with money? It is also used of God buying his people back from the slavery of Egypt (Exodus 6:6; Isaiah 51:10; 63:9).

Yeah brother, he was right on that. the Israelites were allowed to redeem the tithe of the crops but not the animals.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

The whole chapter was on about things that could be redeemed/bought back.
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.
Lev 27:15 And if he that sanctified it will redeem his house, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be his.
Lev 27:19 And if he that sanctified the field will in any wise redeem it, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be assured to him.
Lev 27:27 And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.

From the chapter, houses, fields, even unclean animals could be redeemed and the conditions were stated. The priest would evaluate the price(according to the estimation), which was usually in shekels of the sanctuary(that's also seen in the chapter). So if for instance someone wanted to tithe say a homer of barley, he could be valued/estimated at fifty shekels for instance. Adding a fifth(1/5) to that would be adding 10shekels, so he would pay 60shekels and take his homer of barley.
That's just by the way sha.

Sure, there is Scripture that tells us man could not tithe money.

Deuteronomy 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

God said His holy tithes were agricultural. Man could not tithe money, He had to tithe what God said was to be tithed.

Of course, you will ignore this verse since you want to do what is right in your own eyes.

Oil and wine are found in the fruit. One need only squeeze olives to get olive oil.

Try squeezing a bunch of olives, and you will see what i mean.

One only need squesze grapes to get wine.

Again, squeeze a cluster of grapes, and you will see what I mean.

Now, go outside and hug a tree. Squeeze it as hard as you can. Bet it won't produce a single naira. You can knock the tree down and park a 60 ton vehicle over it, but it still will not produce money.

Fact is, in order get paper money, man has to fashion the material himself. Paper money is not something that God created, man did.

MarkMiwerds:
Sure, there is Scripture that tells us man could not tithe money.

Deuteronomy 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

God said His holy tithes were agricultural. Man could not tithe money, He had to tithe what God said was to be tithed.

Of course, you will ignore this verse since you want to do what is right in your own eyes.

i learnt or was reminded some hours ago that there is no use telling a blind man what color the sky is. It's a profound lesson i hope to imbibe, just thought to reply the prior like i earlier stated.

Your spiritual blindness is far greater and more serious than my physical blindness.

At least I am able to discern truth.

MarkMiwerds:
Your spiritual blindness is far greater and more serious than my physical blindness.

At least I am able to discern truth.

Again, nobody was hinting on your physical blindness. i linked you to the post where i got that and the post wasn't talking about physical blindness. If you think truth is about not tithing or tithing agric produce, it's unfortunate for you to discover that as truth. If tithing is spiritual blindness, praise the Lord, there are no worries. But the worry is that hypocrisy is spiritual blindness, bitterness and dishonesty is spiritual blindness, hatred and malice is spiritual blindness/ these among other things is what i find consistent with most antitithers on the forum. They have no worries with these traits as long as they are antitithe. You guys have indeed missed the mark and deceived yourselves so much you believe a lie. Go and ask God to show you Truth, you would appreciate it. i'm out

Image123:


Again, nobody was hinting on your physical blindness. i linked you to the post where i got that and the post wasn't talking about physical blindness. If you think truth is about not tithing or tithing agric produce, it's unfortunate for you to discover that as truth. If tithing is spiritual blindness, praise the Lord, there are no worries. But the worry is that hypocrisy is spiritual blindness, bitterness and dishonesty is spiritual blindness, hatred and malice is spiritual blindness/ these among other things is what i find consistent with most antitithers on the forum. They have no worries with these traits as long as they are antitithe. You guys have indeed missed the mark and deceived yourselves so much you believe a lie. Go and ask God to show you Truth, you would appreciate it. i'm out

God has already showed me the trut, so your condescending remarks and false accusations are wasted. Go speak them to the gullible and fearful.

Image123:


Yeah brother, he was right on that. the Israelites were allowed to redeem the tithe of the crops but not the animals.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

The whole chapter was on about things that could be redeemed/bought back.
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.
Lev 27:15 And if he that sanctified it will redeem his house, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be his.
Lev 27:19 And if he that sanctified the field will in any wise redeem it, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be assured to him.
Lev 27:27 And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.

From the chapter, houses, fields, even unclean animals could be redeemed and the conditions were stated. The priest would evaluate the price(according to the estimation), which was usually in shekels of the sanctuary(that's also seen in the chapter). So if for instance someone wanted to tithe say a homer of barley, he could be valued/estimated at fifty shekels for instance. Adding a fifth(1/5) to that would be adding 10shekels, so he would pay 60shekels and take his homer of barley.
That's just by the way sha.

Yeah, i actually saw a fifth part in that verse of scripture, my grouse with the chap is where did he see 120%? The way i see that verse is if a person decided not to pay his tithes at the appropriate time, but to pay it at a later date. Whatever tithe he did not pay at the correct time, he should then add an extra one fifth to the tithe when he does pay it. E.g. If a man earns £250 and decides to redeem his tithe, then when he does pay it back he should pay £25 + £5 (one fifth) = £30 in total.
So it is actually 12% not 120%.

Bidam,

why should I substantiate the obvious?

Explain what you mean by redemption. You should swallow your pride and admit your question was halfwitted

My brother,
If the tithe is worth $100 you redeem it at $100 and add 1/5 of the $100 or $20 so you pay $120 for something worth $100. $120 is 120% of the $100 the tithe is worth AND 12% of the produce priced at $1,000. So you were half right. Practice 3D thinking when you take breaks from finding fault with vooks

Bidam:
Yeah, i actually saw a fifth part in that verse of scripture, my grouse with the chap is where did he see 120%? The way i see that verse is if a person decided not to pay his tithes at the appropriate time, but to pay it at a later date. Whatever tithe he did not pay at the correct time, he should then add an extra one fifth to the tithe when he does pay it. E.g. If a man earns £250 and decides to redeem his tithe, then when he does pay it back he should pay £25 + £5 (one fifth) = £30 in total.
So it is actually 12% not 120%.

vooks:
My brother,
If the tithe is worth $100 you redeem it at $100 and add 1/5 of the $100 or $20 so you pay $120 for something worth $100. $120 is 120% of the $100 the tithe is worth AND 12% of the produce priced at $1,000. So you were half right. Practice 3D thinking when you take breaks from finding fault with vooks

The cheek of it. How forcible are right words! but what doth your argument reprove?( Job 6:25)

Brilliant response Mark,
Image123, I never thought I would live to see that question.

One reason is there was no paper money back then and if God wanted money tithes,He would have to make do with gold and silver coins.

The other reason is God was NEVER interested in money which was readily available.

So you have food and money and God picks food. Next, you have money and no food and man elects to substitute it for food and offer 10% against a minimum 22% and gloats over their COMPLIANCE with Torah. They even claim to be doing it in faith. They are no different from the Pharisee who reminded God that he is 'not as other men'

MarkMiwerds:
Oil and wine are found in the fruit. One need only squeeze olives to get olive oil.

Try squeezing a bunch of olives, and you will see what i mean.

One only need squesze grapes to get wine.

Again, squeeze a cluster of grapes, and you will see what I mean.

Now, go outside and hug a tree. Squeeze it as hard as you can. Bet it won't produce a single naira. You can knock the tree down and park a 60 ton vehicle over it, but it still will not produce money.

Fact is, in order get paper money, man has to fashion the material himself. Paper money is not something that God created, man did.

Thinking before typing away is a virtue you would do well to exercise

Bidam:
The cheek of it. How forcible are right words! but what doth your argument reprove?( Job 6:25)

vooks:
Thinking before typing away is a virtue you would do well to exercise

Next time take your advice. Go back and review your earlier post, you are still wrong.

You,Gombs, and even mbaemeka t some point are obsessed with picking errors. What a spirit! The problem is vooks will frustrate you till you pluck your hairs because I honor God by thinking before typing

Is $120 not 1.2 times $100? And is it not 120% of $100? Supposing for a tithe worth $100, the owner was to redeem it by paying $80, that would be 80% it's value. What if it was redeemed using $100, that's 100%

Bidam:
Next time take your advice. Go back and review your earlier post, you are still wrong.

Image123:


Again, nobody was hinting on your physical blindness. i linked you to the post where i got that and the post wasn't talking about physical blindness. Go and ask God to show you Truth, you would appreciate it. i'm out

So you couldn't find a better illustration than that to use?
You know clearly what you did.

Bidam:
You logic doesn't follow here. According to Jewish tradition the man represents the whole of his household..irrespective of which clan or tribe he belongs to.

You simply refuse to reason and learn.

trustman:


You simply refuse to reason and learn.

Refuse to reason and learn what? You finally found your tongue after hours of being silent?

You refuse to learn that NATION don't mean every primate in israel

Bidam:
Refuse to reason and learn what? You finally found your tongue after hours of being silent?

vooks:
You refuse to learn that NATION don't mean every primate in israel

So what does it mean, mr lecturer?

Look up Trustman's response. Repetition is boring, especially on a wet Monday morning and to grownups

Bidam:
So what does it mean, mr lecturer?

Bidam:
So what does it mean, mr lecturer?

When preaching on the topic of tithes, pastors often begin their sermon at Malachi 3:8. But why start at Malachi 3:8? They should instead start at Malachi 2:1. Then they will have proper context for the command in 3:10.

Malachi 2:1 says, “And now, O Priests, this command is for you.” What command? There is no command given in the entirety of that chapter. Read on.

In Chapter 3:6, we read, “For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

So, we see thus far that God was speaking to a specific people, Priests who were descendants of the patriarch Jacob. Read on.

When we arrive at verse ten, we see the commandment referred to in Malachi 2:1. “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse that there may be meat in my House…”.

Nehemiah 10:37-38 reveals to us that it is not the congregation who is responsible for tithing to the House of God. Rather, it is the Levites.

The commanded tithes were agricultural, as commanded in Leviticus 27:30-33. They were not money.

So, now we have the whole truth. The command of Malachi 3:10 is not a command for us to tithe our money, it was not a command for the congregation to bring tithes to the storehouse. It was a command for the Levitical Priests to bring the agricultural tithes to the House of God, to the chambers.

The Priests had stolen the tithes from the storehouse, and God wanted them back. (“O ye Priests, this command is for you”; “Ye have robbed me, even this whole nation”; Bring ye all the tithes…”)

Pastors have deceitfully handled the Word of God for too long. They have twisted the truth of Malachi 3:8-12, and used it as a tool to rob us of our monies.

We are to be faithful stewards of all that our God has given us. That includes being faithful with our money as well. Giving our money to thieves is not wise stewardship.

In 2 Corinthians 8:13, the Apostle Paul wrote that he did not want the Corinthians giving to be such that others were eased and the Corinthians themselves burdened. Many tithe teaching pastors place unnecessary burdens on Church members while they are living the good life.

Time for Christians to wake up… stop feeding the Thieves.

"Nation" in verse 8 is not saying that the whole nation of Israelites were robbing God. Rather, it is saying God and the nation were being robbed... by the Priests.

In stealing the tithes from the storehouse, the Priests brought a curse upon the nation of Israel, a curse of famine and drought. They had robbed the nation of the rain from heaven and the abundance of crops that the land usually yielded.

The ones robbing the storehouse were the Priests. Their thievery robbed the whole nation of God's blessings on the land.

vooks:
Look up Trustman's response. Repetition is boring, especially on a wet Monday morning and to grownups

I am not interested in trustman's response but yours. Moreso trustman's response is another scripture that does not explain Malachi 3 verse 6 in the CONTEXT of who "Nation" was reffering to.

I can't put it better than him so you can take his response to be mine and critique it if need be.

Did you say that Malachi 3 is addressed to the entire nation and not just priests?

Bidam:
I am not interested in trustman's response but yours. Moreso trustman's response is another scripture that does not explain Malachi 3 verse 6 in the CONTEXT of who "Nation" was reffering to.

Nation in Malachi 3:8 could not have been speaking of the nation of Priests.

I say this because not all Priests were at the Temple at the same time. They worked by courses, as revealed in the Chronicles. (2 Chronicles 31)

What had happened is found in Nehemiah 13. Eliashib the Priest had moved all the holy things and the tithes out of the Temple, and had moved Tobiah the Ammonite in. (v.4-7)

The Priests who were on duty at the Temple obviously were aware of this, for when Nehemiah heard about it, he did not address Eliashib alone... he rebuked the entire staff that was on duty at that time! (v.4-12)

He told them to bring the holy things back into the Temple chambers, (v.4-12) and to bring the tithes back as well. (v.10 ) They brought the holy things back, but they did not bring back the stolen tithes. Instead, Judah went out into all Israel and took tithes of the people and brought those in. (v.12)

The tithes that had been stolen were still stolen. They had not been returned. Hence, Malachi's command for the Priests to bring all the tithes into the storehouse. They had robbed God, (Mal. 3:8 ) and He wanted them back! (Mal. 3:10 )

Malachi 3:6, as I explained above, was referring to the Priests. From chapter 1, verse 6, we see God addressing the Priests. And He is addressing them still in chapter 2 and in chapter 3. The subjects being chastised were consistently the Priests.

Bidam:
A simple common sense really. God NEVER gave man paper money. He gave man LAND as seen from the garden of Eden. It will be foolhardy for God to require paper money from man which is a medium of exchange or a legal tender used instead of the conventional and unorthodox trade by barter used for centuries.

A man's wealth is measured in land acquisition never in coins or paper money. Like i told zikkyy, the antithing mantraa of the tithes being ONLY agric is false and an error, no one is stopping the tither from SELLING a piece LAND( Joseph) and using a medium of exchange called money to give the Apostles(Acts 4:36). Abraham tithes was NEVER AGRIC. Everything we have on EARTH is gotten from land whether paper money,gold, diamond, oil, corn, wine etc. even man and animal was created from the dust of the earth.

The key word is WHETHER. leviticus is NOT a definition of tithe. Let's look at it once again.

Leviticus 27:30-33,

"And all the tithe of the land (God is taking to the children of Israel), [size=16pt]whether[/size] of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lords: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will redeem aught of his tithe, he shall add unto it a fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and that for which it is changed shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed."

Whether is a conjunction word used in indirect questions or used to offer CHOICES OR ALTERNATIVES. If it's the tither choice to offer his tenth as money to God so be it. Abel's offerings can't be the same as Cain. Jacob's vow of tithe can't be the same as Abraham. Even the Levites tithed through Abraham. In other words it predated the LAW and your life, just as Jesus predated the LAW.

If you want to use another lame and weak argument like circumcisions you can go ahead but also you will be ready to shun all dubious claims on marriage, worship, clothing and human government which have their foundation in the book of Genesis and since we know Christianity has its roots from Judaism you cannot discard one while holding on to the rest.

Moses wrote Genesis and Apart from Christ no MAN has the revelation of what God intends for his people like Moses not even Paul.

Hmmm,you probably feel you are so vast about the events in the old testament.You even reminded God that since Abraham has titthed in behalf of the Levites,the Levites should also have tithed.My brother you can only tithe what you legally earned or worked for,and also eat of it.Read the story of Abraham again and see if this was applicable to him.Again you blasphemed and I think you need to ask God for forgiveness.Why must you evolve the theory about everything coming from the soil because you want to defend this scientific extortion?.Money was a legal tender then,doesn't God know that before specifically requiring agricultural produce?. Please watch your tongue ok?. Any way,we are no longer practioners of the Mosaic law,and thank God we are no longer under the curses of the OT. Neither are partakers of the practices of the judaism religion.We are now christ followers called christians. I would appreciate if you could cross over to the gospel accounts of jesus and his followers and also elaborately explain to all about how the raised the funds and managed their ministry just exactly the same way you described the activities in the OT.We want to see the correlation between the OT religious practices and the followers of christ,then you conclude by telling us where we should belong as true and not false christians. We are waiting.Please use gospel references and indicate areas where activities of tithing took place amongst the apostles.We need always remember that we are under oath to follow christ and behave exactly like him and nothing else.So judaism practices is no business of a christian. Any way just explain.we are listening.

Image123:


Brother, help me ask them why oil and wine are agricultural and paper money isn't.

I think that question should be directed to God and not to Humans.We are simply relaying what God requested for.Expectedly you are also supposed to indicate where he said that paper money is also agricultural produce and should be tithed.Money was in use then mind you.it is tantamount to idiocrity to raise such concept against almighty Gods intelligence who knew money was in circulation before that command.Also move away from judaism because you do not belong there, do you?.I hope you don't agree you belong to judaism for the love of money.Where do you belong?. Perhaps you agree you are a christian right?. Ok if you truly are,did your christian brothers during and after jesus era pay tithe?.I am waiting to see if you would say yes,and if you do,please don't refer me to judaism religion,refer me to christiam religion. I am not a double faced sword. I chose to copy jesus and the apostles only,no more no less.Any one who doesn't is not worshiping christ.That is exactly what Paul said in Hebrew. Do you believe in Paul gospel?

Image123:


Again, nobody was hinting on your physical blindness. i linked you to the post where i got that and the post wasn't talking about physical blindness. If you think truth is about not tithing or tithing agric produce, it's unfortunate for you to discover that as truth. If tithing is spiritual blindness, praise the Lord, there are no worries. But the worry is that hypocrisy is spiritual blindness, bitterness and dishonesty is spiritual blindness, hatred and malice is spiritual blindness/ these among other things is what i find consistent with most antitithers on the forum. They have no worries with these traits as long as they are antitithe. You guys have indeed missed the mark and deceived yourselves so much you believe a lie. Go and ask God to show you Truth, you would appreciate it. i'm out

I noticed one thing. All the pro-tithers are just giving us records of the judaism activities yet the claim to be christians and have died in christ. No one has ever for once said,Paul said or did,peter said,Mathew,luke,Mark John Timothy,Barnabas, ect ect said regarding tithes.Only mentioning moses,Abraham.Malachi ect.Pls are you people no longer christians?,if you are,give us accounts of these people I mentioned regarding tithes,then can we be perfectly convinced.Arguing this issue from the christian or gospel point of view is the most sincere and practically way of finding the truth or falsehood about tithes. Is anyone ready?

Still reeling....

Two months ago, Fred Price, Jr., of Ever Increasing Faith Ministries shocked many in the Word of Faith movement when he preached a three-part sermon on tithes, informing his 5,000 member congregation that God never commanded tithes of money from anyone in the Bible, and that Crenshaw Christian Church members were not required to tithe. He also let them know God would not curse them if they didn't tithe.

Last year, Creflo Dollar dropped a bombshell as well. He too, admits that one will not be cursed if one does not tithe one's money. This message is said to have been preached at Kenneth Copeland's Conference Meeting with other well-known ministers in the WoF movement.

Is God beginning to do a work in the Word of Faith movement? Are they finally going to get out of God's way and let Him do what He wanted done all along?

I'm amazed.