frank3.16:


Lol... U tooo ha ha. Gudnite folks i am done dealing with clowns.

I have succeeded in asking the most difficult questions to deluded minds.

Pls in ur private corner, take ur time and go over the question over and Over again. U will realize tht there is a reason u cant really answer it.

I think you really believe that you have, @bolded.

Ihedinobi:
Lol. Nothing's wrong with me, dude. The question has been gibberish from the first time he asked it. And I explained why. If you consider my response gibberish, it's up to you to explain why.

How does it not matter? If there is no causal relationship between what God knows and the choices we make, how is that question meaningful? That you insist that it doesn't matter does not make it not matter.

Erm, that you insist that it matters does not make it matter. Where exactly did he ask you about causality?? What does that have to do with anything? You're tossing in a red herring and then using it as an excuse to bail out....

I, personally, have told you this how many times now? Let alone the doubtless others who point this out to you as well, you still pretend to not grasp something so simple. It's totally irrelevant to the point, as if the future is absolutely fixed, then god has no freewill as well, else he'll invalidate omniscience. What sort of omniscient is wrong?? (what sort of omnipotent cannot be wrong if he wants to as well? Una wharrgarbl ehhh...)

Simple. God is subject to the laws of logic and nature, just as 1+1 !=3 regardless of whatever god does, he would not posses freewill in this scenario. Nothing he can will or do about that without violating omniscience. He wouldn't be able to will anything at all actually, just follow the script. The future must play out as predicted regardless of any will, requiring no agency from anyone.

Now, your post becomes gibberish, as it has nothing to do with this. You also seem to be implying free will is necessary for something, I'm not even sure what as again it's irrelevant. Whatever it is, you're begging the question; freewill from where? You need to show free will exists first before whatever whargarbl you want to invoke makes any sense.

It's a basic ABC, so, please do explain exactly what in the universe causality has to do with anything?

Again, simple question; must god's foreknowledge come to pass? Yes or no will suffice.


And I'll leave with this, as you're obviously bent on LALALALAing this away (you've been doing so for about a year now, no reason to believe you'll stop now). From what I understand (read; layman) this universe isn't deterministic. What that means is that if one could manage the magic that is a time machine and traveled back in it, he'd likely end up in a different past. Even if he did somehow end up in the same timeline and did not interact with anyone anywhere, causing no paradoxes like say killing his grand parents therefore preventing his own birth, even if he did nothing at all but observe, he would still view a different future. While this is not directly relevant, ponder on that and its implications. And no, this does not support free will in any manner, random != free will. The point is to show you what a universe that supports free will be like. At any given time the actors should be able to change the script...

GeneralShepherd: Arguing against God and omniscience is one thing,but saying human beings have no choice is being silly!!!!!!

and why is it silly?

Edit: Within today and tomorrow, depending on the light in my area, I'll open a thread explaining in detail why choice and freewill are illussions. I'll be inviting you, ihedinobi and josh to participate

Ihedinobi:
Lol. You're getting quite good at circular reasoning

I had to answer you that way for asking a question you shouldnt be asking

Ihedinobi:
I should have answered "No" to a meaningless question? Why? So the answer to "does a married bachelor have a wife?" is either yes or no as well.

You guys should use your heads more. If my cause-effect argument made no sense to you, you should have just said so, not ask a question with no meaning or sense in it. If you want to set a trap, at least, set an intelligent one.

Oh my this craziness is getting out of hand.
First of all, how is the question synoymous to 'does a married bachelor have a wife?' Are u not the one saying there is something like a married bachelor by proposing that god is ominipotent yet we have freewill.
I am of the veiw that there is nothing as a married bachelor just as god cant be ominipotent and yet we have free will.

U cant slip away easily by claiming god knows our future actions, yet what he knows has No cause efffect to our actions... What nonsense is that. U expect me to bellieve that gibberish(using ur word), you might as well answer d gibberish question that follows replies of urs.

Its just so funny that u are quick to call my question nonsense yet u dont have d ability to see the nonsense in ur cause and effect rubbish.

If u claim there is somtin like a married bachelor (using ur example) u might as well talk about the wife, if u cant talk about the wife, u have No business holding unto ur claim.

Pls dont make me feel like i am talkking to a kid in nursery school.

frank3.16:


Oh my this craziness is getting out of hand.
First of all, how is the question synoymous to 'does a married bachelor have a wife?' Are u not the one saying there is something like a married bachelor by proposing that god is ominipotent yet we have freewill.
I am of the veiw that there is nothing as a married bachelor just as god cant be ominipotent and yet we have free will.

U cant slip away easily by claiming god knows our future actions, yet what he knows has No cause efffect to our actions... What nonsense is that. U expect me to bellieve that gibberish(using ur word), you might as well answer d gibberish question that follows replies of urs.

Its just so funny that u are quick to call my question nonsense yet u dont have d ability to see the nonsense in ur cause and effect rubbish.

If u claim there is somtin like a married bachelor (using ur example) u might as well talk about the wife, if u cant talk about the wife, u have No business holding unto ur claim.

[size=18pt]Pls dont make me feel like i am talkking to a kid in nursery school.[/size]

wiegraf:

Erm, that you insist that it matters does not make it matter. Where exactly did he ask you about causality?? What does that have to do with anything? You're tossing in a red herring and then using it as an excuse to bail out....

Lol. Wiegraf, don't just jump into a discussion and start assuming anything that pleases you. This was where he first asked his question: https://www.nairaland.com/1513222/god-move-mountains-phillipinos-betrayed/13#19576755. Go and see for yourself whether the question was not about causality. On that same page of this thread, I explained to him specifically at least twice how there is no relationship between God's Knowledge and man's choice.

I, personally, have told you this how many times now? Let alone the doubtless others who point this out to you as well, you still pretend to not grasp something so simple. It's totally irrelevant to the point, as if the future is absolutely fixed, then god has no freewill as well, else he'll invalidate omniscience. What sort of omniscient is wrong?? (what sort of omnipotent cannot be wrong if he wants to as well? Una wharrgarbl ehhh...)

Now you're talking nonsense. Let me show you what you just did: Wiegraf, I've told you this how many times now? You still are incapable of grasping something so simple. It is totally relevant to the point. The future is not fixed. God has an absolutely free will and that does not invalidate omniscience. *some incomprehensible gibberish here*

Why should I care about anything you say, wiegraf, or how many times you say it? I don't see you caring about what I say either. And seriously talk more clearly. Which one is "omnipotent cannot be wrong if he wants to be"?

Simple. God is subject to the laws of logic and nature, just as 1+1 !=3 regardless of whatever god does, he would not posses freewill in this scenario. Nothing he can will or do about that without violating omniscience. He wouldn't be able to will anything at all actually, just follow the script. The future must play out as predicted regardless of any will, requiring no agency from anyone.

More nonsense. If God Himself established the laws of logic how are they above Him? One and one cannot make three no matter what God does, abi? But five small loaves and two fish - a little boy's lunch - could feed five thousand people.

Or if you can't stand an example from the Bible, take one from quantum mechanics. How logical is it to have one electron in two states and places at once? God cannot override laws that He Himself set in place? How?

The above in your post reminds me of that long conversation we had once where you descended into the deepest depths of absurdity to prove that omnixxxx is an impossibility. You are doing the same here talking nonsense about no free will, God being bound by laws of logic, no agency....it's tedious to extract sense sometimes from what you say. Smh

Now, your post becomes gibberish, as it has nothing to do with this. You also seem to be implying free will is necessary for something, I'm not even sure what as again it's irrelevant. Whatever it is, you're begging the question; freewill from where? You need to show free will exists first before whatever whargarbl you want to invoke makes any sense.

I already showed what you want to see in my convo with rationalmind. You go and read it and come and state what your problem with it is.

It's a basic ABC, so, please do explain exactly what in the universe causality has to do with anything?

What's wrong with all the explanations I've already given?

Again, simple question; must god's foreknowledge come to pass? Yes or no will suffice.

Does a married bachelor have a wife? Yes or no will suffice.

And I'll leave with this, as you're obviously bent on LALALALAing this away (you've been doing so for about a year now, no reason to believe you'll stop now). From what I understand (read; layman) this universe isn't deterministic. What that means is that if one could manage the magic that is a time machine and traveled back in it, he'd likely end up in a different past. Even if he did somehow end up in the same timeline and did not interact with anyone anywhere, causing no paradoxes like say killing his grand parents therefore preventing his own birth, even if he did nothing at all but observe, he would still view a different future. While this is not directly relevant, ponder on that and its implications. And no, this does not support free will in any manner, random != free will. The point is to show you what a universe that supports free will be like. At any given time the actors should be able to change the script...

I think the exact same about you and most of the atheists/agnostics I've encountered here: you all are exceptional in your ability to la la la la... everything away if you don't like it. That's why theists have to repeat themselves post after post answering the same question.

About your theory about the universe not being deterministic, it's rather amusing that you should try to prove an argument by appealing to some flight of imagination. Let us assume that indeed time travel were possible and, say, Duke travels to the past and does absolutely nothing but observe. Why should he see a different future than the one he came from? Because wiegraf says that that is what he'll see?

rationalmind:

I had to answer you that way for asking a question you shouldnt be asking

Really? And why shouldn't I be asking?

rationalmind:

Lol, so, its not a theory for you to employ because ure convinced in your heart of hearts there is a God. How can it now be a theory for atheists to employ when they are also convinced in their heart of hearts there is no God

When I already believe in God y would I need a wager. It is only one that has serious doubts about God's existence that can apply the pascal's wager just incase he's wrong and there really is a God.
Really its an intelligent theory based on sound reason which I think y'all shud consider. As a christian my belief in God stems from my faith but as atheist you have lost that virtue so dont you think that if you apply this kinda reason you can eventually have a reason to believe in God?

frank3.16:


Oh my this craziness is getting out of hand.
First of all, how is the question synoymous to 'does a married bachelor have a wife?' Are u not the one saying there is something like a married bachelor by proposing that god is ominipotent yet we have freewill.
I am of the veiw that there is nothing as a married bachelor just as god cant be ominipotent and yet we have free will.

Oh, my arguments for the co-existence of God's omniscience and man's free will still stand. None of you have managed to logically fault it. You've complained of how it is unacceptable, you've tried to force your own theories down our throats, you've mocked it. You've done everything but actually logically disprove it. I hardly think you can rightly compare my arguments to the absurdity of the married bachelor.

Your question on the other hand is an absurdity when you consider that my arguments are still standing and you haven't disproved them.

U cant slip away easily by claiming god knows our future actions, yet what he knows has No cause efffect to our actions... What nonsense is that. U expect me to bellieve that gibberish(using ur word), you might as well answer d gibberish question that follows replies of urs.

You need not trouble yourself with what I expect or anything like that. Just fault the gibberish. We were debating, were we not? When I talk nonsense, you use logical techniques to expose me. That's how you gain the right to call what I say nonsense or gibberish.

I made no mere claim. I made a full comprehensive argument that you should be attacking. But rather than do the work involved, you said "lol, too much long talk" and later "my question remains". If that is not singing lalalalala, I don't know what is.

Until you're willing to exercise your intellect in dealing with the issue on hand, all you will do is whine and stamp your feet and that won't change a thing

Its just so funny that u are quick to call my question nonsense yet u dont have d ability to see the nonsense in ur cause and effect rubbish.

Debate means that it is your job to show me the nonsense in my "rubbish" that you couldn't even read. I'm doing my own job showing you where you don't make sense.

If u claim there is somtin like a married bachelor (using ur example) u might as well talk about the wife, if u cant talk about the wife, u have No business holding unto ur claim.

The above doesn't make any sense. Where did I claim that there is such a thing as a married bachelor? You do understand literary devices, don't you? I used sarcasm to show you that I considered your question as absurd as one demanding whether a married bachelor has a wife.

Obviously there is no such thing as a married bachelor, so asking about its wife is talking nonsense or gibberish or posing a meaningless question. That was the point of the question. You really should think a little more when you debate.

Pls dont make me feel like i am talkking to a kid in nursery school.

I'm not responsible for what you feel. You know that at least, right?

plaetton:



I am getting goosebumps just reading this post.

This is probably the most shocking post I have read from a christian.

In fact, I am out of words.

God kills 10,000 people so that the rest can be awakened to god.
Now, i know where Boko Haram is coming from.
Now I know where Al Queda mass murderers are coming from.

Religion is very very scary.
Religion is wicked.
Religion is insanity.
Religion is sub-human

You may be right there, that's why I offer you solution He is JESUS. You cant get to understand the world you live in until its revealed to you by JESUS. Shalom.

esauy:

The number one rule of Politics is Generate Fear! You can't galvanize a group of people to rally behind your cause unless you give them something to fear. Human beings overwhelmingly respond to negativity. Thats why we are in this forum enjoying the fact that we are here scolding one another. You give a group of people something to fear and they will rally to your cause, be it true or false. Its just the unfortunate nature of man. Jesus was most likely a religious Zealot trying to organize an armed insurrection in an attempt to over throw his Roman oppressors who were diluting his Jewish Faith with their pagan beliefs and bribing the pharisees to be corrupt an tow the Roman line.

This is a wonderful quote for us Atheist to remember when we get that argument about God of the Old Testament vs. God of the New. They are both cruel and vindictive. Religion is the only thing that makes good people do and say bad things. This quote is truly disturbing and I'm glad you brought it to my attention. Jesus was not the God of Love and Peace. He definitely was out for war

Matthew 10:34
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword

These are the scriptures that are so dangerous and worthy of condemnation in our modern era

The same person that says "sword" is the same person that says if they strike you on right cheek turn the left. Like I said you need to read with understanding, you need holy spirit. Shalom

waldigit :


The same person that says "sword" is the same person that says if they strike you on right cheek turn the left. Like I said you need to read with understanding, you need holy spirit. Shalom

The person is schizophrenic?

Ihedinobi:
Oh, my arguments for the co-existence of God's omniscience and man's free will still stand. None of you have managed to logically fault it. You've complained of how it is unacceptable, you've tried to force your own theories down our throats, you've mocked it. You've done everything but actually logically disprove it. I hardly think you can rightly compare my arguments to the absurdity of the married bachelor.

Your question on the other hand is an absurdity when you consider that my arguments are still standing and you haven't disproved them.


You need not trouble yourself with what I expect or anything like that. Just fault the gibberish. We were debating, were we not? When I talk nonsense, you use logical techniques to expose me. That's how you gain the right to call what I say nonsense or gibberish.

I made no mere claim. I made a full comprehensive argument that you should be attacking. But rather than do the work involved, you said "lol, too much long talk" and later "my question remains". If that is not singing lalalalala, I don't know what is.

Until you're willing to exercise your intellect in dealing with the issue on hand, all you will do is whine and stamp your feet and that won't change a thing


Debate means that it is your job to show me the nonsense in my "rubbish" that you couldn't even read. I'm doing my own job showing you where you don't make sense.


The above doesn't make any sense. Where did I claim that there is such a thing as a married bachelor? You do understand literary devices, don't you? I used sarcasm to show you that I considered your question as absurd as one demanding whether a married bachelor has a wife.

Obviously there is no such thing as a married bachelor, so asking about its wife is talking nonsense or gibberish or posing a meaningless question. That was the point of the question. You really should think a little more when you debate.


I'm not responsible for what you feel. You know that at least, right?

you have made no meaningful comprehensive arguement so far, if you think you have then u need to re-educate yourself. you made claims that defiles logic and expect me to counter it with a logical stance. you claim God knows our future plan, yet this knowledge has no cause effect relationship with the choice we make. whatever makes you think this is a sound argument, i dont know. how does you claim not sound like calling someone a married bachelor with no wife?
if an ominipotent being knows everything we think, that means he knows every choice we make. he knows what we will do with our freewill, he knows our future plans and the rest, he knows everything.

hence the simple question to the rubbish claim above, must what he knows about our future plans come to pass? why can't u answer it.
1. you accept he knows our future plans
2. you accept we have the choice to do whatever we want (and whatever we freely choose, he already knows)
3. then you ridiculously claim what he knows and what we choose do not have cause effect relationship. how can it be related when we are not making choices different from what he knows?

The above doesn't make any sense. Where did I claim that there is such a thing as a married bachelor? You do understand literary devices, don't you? I used sarcasm to show you that I considered your question as absurd as one demanding whether a married bachelor has a wife.

unfortunately u are not able to comprehend that i already understand your sarcasm and using it against you. you consider my question as absurd as one demanding whether a married bachelor has a wife. but i also consider you replies as absurd as one claiming that there is something like a married bachelor

frank3.16:


you have made no meaningful comprehensive arguement so far, if you think you have then u need to re-educate yourself. you made claims that defiles logic and expect me to counter it with a logical stance. you claim God knows our future plan, yet this knowledge has no cause effect relationship with the choice we make. whatever makes you think this is a sound argument, i dont know. how does you claim not sound like calling someone a married bachelor with no wife?
if an ominipotent being knows everything we think, that means he knows every choice we make. he knows what we will do with our freewill, he knows our future plans and the rest, he knows everything.

hence the simple question to the rubbish claim above, must what he knows about our future plans come to pass? why can't u answer it.
1. you accept he knows our future plans
2. you accept we have the choice to do whatever we want (and whatever we freely choose, he already knows)
3. then you ridiculously claim what he knows and what we choose do not have cause effect relationship. how can it be related when we are not making choices different from what he knows?



unfortunately u are not able to comprehend that i already understand your sarcasm and using it against you. you consider my question as absurd as one demanding whether a married bachelor has a wife. but i also consider you replies as absurd as one claiming that there is something like a married bachelor

Lol. I've been wasting my time expecting you to actually use your intellect. Didn't I already tell you that I didn't make any claim? An argument and a claim are two different things. A claim is what you need to prove. An argument is a comprehensive case following from established premises to logical conclusions.

It's you people who have kept claiming repeatedly that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive with not one small bit if proof to back it up. I've explained severally how the two can co-exist but you specifically have done nothing but dismiss it. And you seriously expect me to take lalalala as a refuting argument.

Anyway, I'm done with you, man. Whenever you are willing to engage intellectually with me, I'll very gladly oblige you. Until then, I have nothing more to say to you.

Ihedinobi:
Lol. I've been wasting my time expecting you to actually use your intellect. Didn't I already tell you that I didn't make any claim? An argument and a claim are two different things. A claim is what you need to prove. An argument is a comprehensive case following from established premises to logical conclusions.

[size=18pt]It's you people who have kept claiming repeatedly that free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive with not one small bit if proof to back it up.[/size] I've explained severally how the two can co-exist but you specifically have done nothing but dismiss it. And you seriously expect me to take lalalala as a refuting argument.

Anyway, I'm done with you, man. Whenever you are willing to engage intellectually with me, I'll very gladly oblige you. Until then, I have nothing more to say to you.

Your time is coming soon.......enjoy your lies and sophistry while you can.

Logicboy03:



Your time is coming soon.......enjoy your lies and sophistry while you can.

Lol. You mean when you'll do more than yell "fail!", "debunked!", "checkmate!" and what soundbites of the moment you are taken with and lie that I'm lying and accuse me falsely of sophistry - something you obviously don't know anything about? Yeah, I eagerly await the day

free radical: When I already believe in God y would I need a wager. It is only one that has serious doubts about God's existence that can apply the pascal's wager just incase he's wrong and there really is a God.
Really its an intelligent theory based on sound reason which I think y'all shud consider. As a christian my belief in God stems from my faith but as atheist you have lost that virtue so dont you think that if you apply this kinda reason you can eventually have a reason to believe in God?

lol. the Pascal's Wager has been debunked a thousand years ago.

Logicboy03:



Your time is coming soon.......enjoy your lies and sophistry while you can.

Where do you see sophistry anywhere? Sophistry is clever. This is lalalalalala

@ihe, so god can make 1 + 1 = 3?

wiegraf: @ihe, so god can make 1 + 1 = 3?

what!? you heathen!

he used a school boys lunch to feed 5000 men not counting women(seemed then that women were not worth counting )

Mr Troll: what!? you heathen!

he used a school boys lunch to feed 5000 men not counting women(seemed then that women were not worth counting )

Yet you dared argue with me when I pointed out superman is faster than a speeding bullet? It's written there in my comics...

wiegraf:

Yet you dared argue with me when I pointed out superman is faster than a speeding bullet? It's written there in my comics...

You are worshipping the wrong hero! The one true hero is Batman aka the dark knight.....you shall be tormented in Arkham Asylum for your blasphemy....as it was sayeth in the Holy book of DC Comics

wiegraf:

Yet you dared argue with me when I pointed out superman is faster than a speeding bullet? It's written there in my comics...

my comics is better than yours

yours has been corrupted

Tragedy strikes everyone: believer and unbeliever alike. It doesn't mean that there is no God. When tragedy strikes it should remind us that indeed man's days are short and uncertain and we should repent and give our life to Christ.

Jesus touches on this issue:

There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1-5 NKJV)

Could Jesus not have prevented Pilate from killing his fellow Jews or prevented the tower from falling and killing those people? Of course he could. The primary thing when tragedy like this strikes is to reflect and repent.

The second point is this. We are all alarmed because the large number of people who have perished but the question is an individual one. Perhaps God did prevent the typhoon, then another people would ask, what about the 1000 people here? or the 300 there? Or what about my mum who died of cancer? Or why was I molested as a child? Why was I born in the squalor of Africa? Again the real question is an individual one that everyone deals with, even believers. John the Baptist himself, when he was thrown in prison by Herod sent his disciples to ask if Jesus was truly the messiah though he himself had heralded him as such.

Tragedies like this really disturb people who do not believe in God and for whom death is final. For the believer, death is death. Whether by storms, by bullet, by disease, by whatever. One day we will all die. But those who die in Christ, pass from death to eternal life.

But for God to show that he is not divorced from the problem of evil, pain, and suffering, he became flesh and he endured all kinds of pain and torment, and people said just what some on this forum are saying, "why could he not save himself?" But had he saved himself, how could we know that he really understands us? Instead, he endured suffering and he too died a violent death.

But death could not hold him. He conquered death and made it of no consequence. And so it is for all those who believe in him: death has no power, it is only the beginning.

NativeBoy: Tragedy strikes everyone: believer and unbeliever alike. It doesn't mean that there is no God. When tragedy strikes it should remind us that indeed man's days are short and uncertain and we should repent and give our life to Christ.

Jesus touches on this issue:

There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1-5 NKJV)

Could Jesus not have prevented Pilate from killing his fellow Jews or prevented the tower from falling and killing those people? Of course he could. The primary thing when tragedy like this strikes is to reflect and repent.

The second point is this. We are all alarmed because the large number of people who have perished but the question is an individual one. Perhaps God did prevent the typhoon, then another people would ask, what about the 1000 people here? or the 300 there? Or what about my mum who died of cancer? Or why was I molested as a child? Why was I born in the squalor of Africa? Again the real question is an individual one that everyone deals with, even believers. John the Baptist himself, when he was thrown in prison by Herod sent his disciples to ask if Jesus was truly the messiah though he himself had heralded him as such.

Tragedies like this really disturb people who do not believe in God and for whom death is final. For the believer, death is death. Whether by storms, by bullet, by disease, by whatever. One day we will all die. But those who die in Christ, pass from death to eternal life.

But for God to show that he is not divorced from the problem of evil, pain, and suffering, he became flesh and he endured all kinds of pain and torment, and people said just what some on this forum are saying, "why could he not save himself?" But had he saved himself, how could we know that he really understands us? Instead, he endured suffering and he too died a violent death.

But death could not hold him. He conquered death and made it of no consequence. And so it is for all those who believe in him: death has no power, it is only the beginning.

Silly silly silly.

The entire body of the christian faith rest upon the notion that god is the puppet master of the universe whose infinite love for humanity bestows blessings, protects , strengthens and rewards those with steadfast faith.

In Nigeria, America and most Thirdworld nations , the entire pentecostal movement is built upon, rests upon, and is propagated upon the grand expectations that God bestows worldly blessings, worldly strength and protection from all evils affliction and catastrophies.
If you doubt that, just simply ask any Nigerian Pentecostal christian.

Also,in case you have not noticed, millions of people the world over are financially exploited daily and great financial empires that include private jest are built purely on the strength of this grand promise of blessings and protection from God, the puppet master of the universe.

What do people pray for, if not for divine protection from all unfoerseen calamities?

So, to turn around now to claim that god is mysteriously indifferent to the calamities that befall humanity, including his faithful, is a glaring contradiction and another sure sign of Cognitive Dissonance.

For, if god is indifferent to human suffering and human insecurity, then why the Fxxx should anyone be encouraged to look up to god and worship him?
If governments and the Red Cross can do a better job of safeguarding citizens, then pls, who needs a god?
What other promise is a Supernatural God capable of fulfilling if he cannot protect and save 10,000 people from Natural dissasters?

plaetton:

Silly silly silly.

The entire body of the christian faith rest upon the notion that god is the puppet master of the universe whose infinite love for humanity bestows blessings, protects , strengthens and rewards those with steadfast faith.

In Nigeria, America and most Thirdworld nations , the entire pentecostal movement is built upon, rests upon, and is propagated upon the grand expectations that God bestows worldly blessings, worldly strength and protection from all evils affliction and catastrophies.
If you doubt that, just simply ask any Nigerian Pentecostal christian.

Also,in case you have not noticed, millions of people the world over are financially exploited daily and great financial empires that include private jest are built purely on the strength of this grand promise of blessings and protection from God, the puppet master of the universe.

What do people pray for, if not for divine protection from all unfoerseen calamities?

So, to turn around now to claim that god is mysteriously indifferent to the calamities that befall humanity, including his faithful, is a glaring contradiction and another sure sign of Cognitive Dissonance.

For, if god is indifferent to human suffering and human insecurity, then why the Fxxx should anyone be encouraged to look up to god and worship him?
If governments and the Red Cross can do a better job of safeguarding citizens, then pls, who needs a god?
What other promise is a Supernatural God capable of fulfilling if he cannot protect and save 10,000 people from Natural dissasters?

Please point to where I indicated that God is indifferent to human suffering. I actually argued the opposite. Did you bother reading the post?

People fleecing others in name of Christ is nothing new. It's been happening since the days of the early church. So is your argument that since people use the word of God fraudulently, then we ought to rid ourselves of it? People use the financial system fraudulently, do we get rid if it then?

Lastly, God indeed does protect, and strengthen, and bless. None of that means that tragedy won't strike. Again, Jesus was on earth healing the sick, feeding people, raising the dead, etc. Did that stop the tower in Siloam from falling and killing people? Or Herod from killing John the Baptist?

NativeBoy:

Please point to where I indicated that God is indifferent to human suffering. I actually argued the opposite. Did you bother reading the post?

People fleecing others in name of Christ is nothing new. It's been happening since the days of the early church. So is your argument that since people use the word of God fraudulently, then we ought to rid ourselves of it? People use the financial system fraudulently, do we get rid if it then?

Lastly, God indeed does protect, and strengthen, and bless. None of that means that tragedy won't strike. Again, Jesus was on earth healing the sick, feeding people, raising the dead, etc. Did that stop the tower in Siloam from falling and killing people? Or Herod from killing John the Baptist?

The bolded are real questions you should be asking yourself, not me.
Is it for those of you who believe and rest your worldview on the myths of stone-age cavemen, to stop and think.

God is missing in real life because god lives in your head, the Temporal Lobe region of your brain to be exact.
That is where he was created and that is his permanent abode.

God takes the shape of the brain that creates it.
That is why god is here and there, and all over the place.
That is why god is invisible to some, while he walks with others, talks to some , while he send preachers and prophets to to others.

But one consistent character of God is that he is always absent to prevent or save people, even his ardent believers, from natural disasters and calamities.

plaetton:
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The bolded are real questions you should be asking yourself, not me.
Is it for those of you who believe and rest your worldview on the myths of stone-age cavemen, to stop and think.

God is missing in real life because god lives in your head, the Temporal Lobe region of your brain to be exact.
That is where he was created and that is his permanent abode.

God takes the shape of the brain that creates it.
That is why god is here and there, and all over the place.
That is why god is invisible to some, while he walks with others, talks to some , while he send preachers and prophets to to others.

But one consistent character of God is that he is always absent to prevent or save people, even his ardent believers, from natural disasters and calamities.

I see you couldn't point to where I argued for an indifferent God. Neither could you defend your point that because people use God fraudulently, we must rid ourselves of God.

You can allege all day long that God doesn't save but just because you haven't experienced something doesn't make it untrue.

Again your position is informed by your belief in the finality of death. If one believes, as I do, that death is only the beginning, then one, is heartbroken by the tragedy in the Philippines, but one also knows that because so many of them believed in Jesus, they have passed on to eternal life.

Now, lets say I don't believe in God and believe in the naturalistic process that created everything including myself, then you still cannot blame me for my belief in a higher power. After all, I'm simply operating within the parameters of that process. Clearly, it was important for the natural process to create man with a sense of a higher being. It is interesting that in every society that has existed, there has always been a sense of something greater than ourselves.

But as intulligent as atheists are, the could do nothing to stop this disaster, why are they complaining bitterly na?

Image123: But as intulligent as atheists are, the could do nothing to stop this disaster, why are they complaining bitterly na?

No atheist that I know or have ever heard of, robs, saps and picks the pockets of other people with the promise of supernatural blessings and protection from unexpected disasters.
That is the package that you sell everyday to your flock of faithfuls.

Obtaining under false pretense of supernatural protection is 419.

If god cannot save, then what is reliance on God and religion all about?
Where is the miracle?
The Holy spirit's power is only good enough to make people fall down during a church service, but impotent in the face of tempest winds?
What gives?

Image123: But as intulligent as atheists are, the could do nothing to stop this disaster, why are they complaining bitterly na?

Still a slowpoke, 2013 don dey end. NO hope for you at all. I just hope say you never born.