Hello folks, good evening all, this thread started on a very sound note, but is almost ending up in the usual unloving banter. i wonder what a discussion would look like, but i'd say, bring it on, lol. no conditions atall from me,my only fear are the end result of such discussion, i dont want anyone to tag me 'fraud' 'theifing pastor' 'charlatan' or all the uncomplimentary remarks that usually follow for making my stand in a discuss. A wonderful christian discussion should end (no matter the opposing views) with love, and heart felt prayer to the other person is what i'd like. Lest remenber that doctrine has not saved anyone, Let all things be done with love. Am in, can we begin tomorrow? Bless you all.

Mark Miwerds: Did I say I was looking for sympathy? No, I did not. If I were looking for sympathy, I would be giving people on this forum my address and asking for cards and money. I have not done that, nor do I plan to.

It takes money to survive. My disability check is less than 600 dollars a month. Rent takes 400 of it, electricity, 105-112 a month depending on whether it is winter or summer. The rest is groceries. Have you tried to live on 85 to 90 dollars worth of groceries for a month lately?

Keep up with your false accusations. I'm sure the Lord is pleased with them... NOT!

spare me the details. Thank God for His Spirit. As if i knew what was behind already. Every one, lets sympatize please, sympathize. Nothin insultin or wrong with what i said. Again if it offends you, sorry.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

It may be that Image123 thinks he is doing God a service (favor) by his railing accusations.

He is not.

DrummaBoy, thank you for your concern. As I said, I seek no sympathy. I survive on what God has given me to survive on. I suppose if we were to know the value of the widows two mites that she gave, they may be worth more today than what the government gives me for my support.

But God is faithful. He will never fail. He puts it on one family member's heart to pay my internet so that I have to ability to keep in touch with family members more than 800 miles away. This allows them to see me through my monitor's built-in webcam. Though I cannot see them, I take comfort in hearing their voices on a regular basis.

God is good. He gives me what I need, not what I want. And I can say He has never failed me in the more than 30 years I have been serving Him.

Rhymeyjohn: Hello folks, good evening all, this thread started on a very sound note, but is almost ending up in the usual unloving banter. i wonder what a discussion would look like, but i'd say, bring it on, lol. no conditions atall from me,my only fear are the end result of such discussion, i dont want anyone to tag me 'fraud' 'theifing pastor' 'charlatan' or all the uncomplimentary remarks that usually follow for making my stand in a discuss. A wonderful christian discussion should end (no matter the opposing views) with love, and heart felt prayer to the other person is what i'd like. Lest remenber that doctrine has not saved anyone, Let all things be done with love. Am in, can we begin tomorrow? Bless you all.

Thank you sir. You are fully welcome.

Let me make my point in opening the thread clear: to state the tithe doctrine, for or against, in a clear manner; and not in the brick-bat manner that is usual on this forum. I have had to take that strong position against Image123 because I sensed with his continual presence on this thread it would lead to that.

No one is going to insult anyone. That is why there is the need for the rules and regulation, and I am going to take the above post as your own rules and regulation. I will add it with those of Mark Miwerds and I will come up with a comprehensive list for rules and regulations tomorrow, God willing. Following that I will suggest a method of discussing; I have already posted but will simply re-iterate.

As we discussed we realized that we could have it as allies discussions: that is two against against two. Mark has agreed for Candour. You are free to choose your own partner, if you wish.

We would discuss the modalities thoroughly and then we would begin at a date we all agree on.

To give flesh to the thread, I am appointing myself as moderator for now. If you do not wish that I be moderator for the discussion proper, you could say so, then you could suggest who you want and based on your "opponents" agreement, you will choose the moderator.

Please let me know any other question you want, while I work on the rules and regulation.

Thanks for volunteering for the discussion.

Candour:

Are you also trying to catch some fun with Mark's post?

Hope you're still exulting in the ecstacy of the enjoyment you've just had at his expense?

You make fun of a blind man and tell him not to take offense? Your value system beats the imagination

I hope your enjoyment lasts very long indeed

i did not make fun at his condition. It's good to see that what was being driven at is come to light. i simply kidded with him on NOT GIVING TITHE. It's a line that i can jokingly direct at you or frosb or any of the antitithers here. If you or the others have learnt anything from what i teach, you would have smiled over it rightly and not have condemned the guiltless. i know for certain that some folks here would gladly send me to hell if it was in their power, na so the tithe thin pain them reach. lets see how the cop out plays.

Mark Miwerds: Thank you, frosbel.

I am saddened that one that names the name of Christ could speak so cruelly. But then again I have to expect it more and more. We are living in the time that the prophet Isaiah spoke of in 740 B.C.; a time when men would put forth darkness for light, calling good evil and evil good.

i hope to see you show me the cruel things i spoke at least so that i may learn that such things are cruel. Again, quite sorry to offend you. Your continual reference to your disability was disturbing too.

Pastor Kun:

Why are you wasting your time with Image123? Is it not glaringly obvious that he lacks the balls to engage in an organised tithe discussion because he knows he would be thoroughly humilated and exposed to be a charlatan

So that's the purpose for this set up.

^^

^ It's YOU & me that I really want discussion for. After all, you indicated your interest first. I'm still waiting for you o. I really love to do this discussion with you.

Image123:

i did not make fun at his condition. It's good to see that what was being driven at is come to light. i simply kidded with him on NOT GIVING TITHE. It's a line that i can jokingly direct at you or frosb or any of the antitithers here. If you or the others have learnt anything from what i teach, you would have smiled over it rightly and not have condemned the guiltless. i know for certain that some folks here would gladly send me to hell if it was in their power, na so the tithe thin pain them reach. lets see how the cop out plays.

Image, it was a very uncharitable, ungracious and very cruel way to talk to a disabled person. No man can blame you if you feel you have heard enough of it but the sensible thing to do was to have simply ignored him.

If it was me or the other usual suspects you threw such at, we'll laugh and give it back to you but this is a blind man and at least you've made him prove it once to you.

Did you even re-read what you typed and posted? Those whose palm kernels are cracked for them by a benevolent spirit should not forget to be humble. Pls always remember this

Whether we stop for 2 months or 2 years makes no difference. You've been on NL since 2008 and you're still talking on tithe. Some of your comrades have been here longer than that and they too refuse to give it up so I wonder what a 2 months abstinence from 2 people will achieve.

Goshen360: ^ It's YOU & me that I really want discussion for. After all, you indicated your interest first. I'm still waiting for you o. I really love to do this discussion with you.

Well, em rules are not feasible!

@Rhymeyjohn

Are we set to go?

Would you opt for an ally or go alone?

Please I need to know your position so we can make some progress.

Gombs:

Well, em rules are not feasible!

We are adults and brothers, we don't need rules and regulations, only mature and Christian discussion. The only thing on my side is, I will ask you some "hit and run" questions, just don't dodge them, I will like them answered with scripture references. I will not insult or call you or anyone names. Okay. That's me...let's roll it.

Image123:

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, my brother Ola. Na wa oh

O ga ju!

Mark Miwerds:

[/b] we don't need a leg to stand on.

So you admit that you are a serpent that doesn't need a leg to stand on?

Mark Miwerds:

We have the Word of God that supports us completely.

Where did you say we could find that verse in the Bible that tells us God requires us to tithe our money?

Eve heard all that before but ended up doubting, denying and disobeying the word of God. Read the book of Genesis and discover the genesis of the blame game:

"Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the snake and the snake didn't have a leg to stand on" 

OLAADEGBU:

So you admit that you are a serpent that doesn't need a leg to stand on?

Not admitting that at all. You sure know how to twist people's words, don't you? You are just as proficient at twisting our words as you are at twisting the Word of God.

Eve heard all that before but ended up doubting, denying and disobeying the word of God. Read the book of Genesis and discover the genesis of the blame game:

"Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the snake and the snake didn't have a leg to stand on" 

Much like you are doing today. You have the Word of God which teaches only agricultural tithe requirements, yet you deny it for the man-made doctrine of a monetary tithe.

^^^


OLAADEGBU's 'christ' is the leader of his church Pator Kumuyi.

Thats what happens to people when they do religion , it produces coldness and a lack of empathy towards those who are not part of their cult group.

frosbel: ^^^


OLAADEGBU's 'christ' is the leader of his church Pator Kumuyi.

Thats what happens to people when they do religion , it produces coldness and a lack of empathy towards those who are not part of their cult group.

It's really a shame

Goshen360:

We are adults and brothers, we don't need rules and regulations, only mature and Christian discussion. The only thing on my side is, I will ask you some "hit and run" questions, just don't dodge them, I will like them answered with scripture references. I will not insult or call you or anyone names. Okay. That's me...let's roll it.

Sounds fair!

Let's begin

Pastor Kun:

It's really a shame

Yeah..it is a shame that you guys have begin to show your chameleon skins by turning the thread to a bashing one and insulting peoples local assembly.SMH!

Bidam: Yeah..it is a shame that you guys have begin to show your chameleon skins by turning the thread to a bashing one and insulting peoples local assembly.SMH!

Knew it would get to this...so far anti tithers are involved, insults are imminent

Candour:

Image, it was a very uncharitable, ungracious and very cruel way to talk to a disabled person. No man can blame you if you feel you have heard enough of it but the sensible thing to do was to have simply ignored him.

If it was me or the other usual suspects you threw such at, we'll laugh and give it back to you but this is a blind man and at least you've made him prove it once to you.

Did you even re-read what you typed and posted? Those whose palm kernels are cracked for them by a benevolent spirit should not forget to be humble. Pls always remember this

Whether we stop for 2 months or 2 years makes no difference. You've been on NL since 2008 and you're still talking on tithe. Some of your comrades have been here longer than that and they too refuse to give it up so I wonder what a 2 months abstinence from 2 people will achieve.

Oh its the hearing enough of it that is the problem? Thanks. i asked him to show me what the cruel thing was but he did not. i read and re-read the post, i was thinking the offense had to do with the kidding i made about windows of heaven. Anyways, sorry for that. It was just that i was talking about something else, about love of money or so, and he was telling me about how his condition is and how much he has to spend and this and that. That was why i thought he should not bring that in. Again, sorry about that. i do/did not wish or intend to talk negatively about his disability.
About the bolded you said i should remember, i do not recall saying that. But no wahala, i will try to remember that. If your stopping for 2months or 2years makes no difference, you should not find it that hard a request or a tying of hands. Neither i nor my comrades(whatever that means) talks about tithe every month and week, and on every tithe thread, making circular arguments.

Gombs:

Knew it would get to this...so far anti tithers are involved, insults are imminent

Funny, the tithers are the first hurl insults, yet those who don't tithe are at fault.

Go figure.

Isaiah 5:20 (KJV) 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Image123:

Oh its the hearing enough of it that is the problem? Thanks. i asked him to show me what the cruel thing was but he did not. i read and re-read the post, i was thinking the offense had to do with the kidding i made about windows of heaven. Anyways, sorry for that. It was just that i was talking about something else, about love of money or so, and he was telling me about how his condition is and how much he has to spend and this and that. That was why i thought he should not bring that in. Again, sorry about that. i do/did not wish or intend to talk negatively about his disability.

No wahala bro. His reply to your accusation of love of money was just to let you know he had nothing financial he was benefiting from his stance against tithes as he's even on a disability package and despite all, he still remained faithful to God. I believe he wasn't seeking a pity party.

You know we are used to accusing ourselves of love of money so if na Goshen or DrummaBoy, i'm sure it wouldn't have appeared in such an insensitive light.

About the bolded you said i should remember, i do not recall saying that. But no wahala, i will try to remember that.

So you're one of those who didn't read Chinua Achebe's books? The bolded is an Igbo proverb in 'Things Fall Apart'. I only quoted it to drive home my point.

If your stopping for 2months or 2years makes no difference, you should not find it that hard a request or a tying of hands. Neither i nor my comrades(whatever that means) talks about tithe every month and week, and on every tithe thread, making circular arguments.

Really it doesn't. I am less than a year old on NL. That should tell you i had a life before coming here and would definitely have a life when i eventually leave. I just don't like the idea of somebody dictating how i run my life or my hands on my keyboard.

If it's to avoid a prejudice against our discussion, then you'll have a case which is why i made the concession of staying away from other tithe discussions for the duration of our discussions.

My dear, recheck again. you and your comrades post as much as i do on those threads. Infact in my spare time 2 days ago, i checked the ratio of all our individual posts. You can check yourself. i'm sure you wont make that statement again after you do.

Candour:

No wahala bro. His reply to your accusation of love of money was just to let you know he had nothing financial he was benefiting from his stance against tithes as he's even on a disability package and despite all, he still remained faithful to God. I believe he wasn't seeking a pity party.

You know we are used to accusing ourselves of love of money so if na Goshen or DrummaBoy, i'm sure it wouldn't have appeared in such an insensitive light.




So you're one of those who didn't read Chinua Achebe's books? The bolded is an Igbo proverb in 'Things Fall Apart'. I only quoted it to drive home my point.




Really it doesn't. I am less than a year old on NL. That should tell you i had a life before coming here and would definitely have a life when i eventually leave. I just don't like the idea of somebody dictating how i run my life or my hands on my keyboard.

If it's to avoid a prejudice against our discussion, then you'll have a case which is why i made the concession of staying away from other tithe discussions for the duration of our discussions.

My dear, recheck again. you and your comrades post as much as i do on those threads. Infact in my spare time 2 days ago, i checked the ratio of all our individual posts. You can check yourself. i'm sure you wont make that statement again after you do.

Okay, no qualms too. though love of money is not about how much one has in one's account or purse. i've seen very poor people who had love of money before.
Not read Achebe, watched the play though. i do not not about comrades or what not, but as for me, the ratio is 'impressive'. The concession is fine.

Image123:

Okay, no qualms too. though love of money is not about how much one has in one's account or purse. i've seen very poor people who had love of money before.
Not read Achebe, watched the play though. i do not not about comrades or what not, but as for me, the ratio is 'impressive'. The concession is fine.

ok

Candour,

I am sending a revised email.

I'll want m.k.o 2005 or alwaystrue as an ally in the discuss.
The issue i raised is rearing it ugly head even in the pre discuss thread, folks being accused of being 'lover of money' for the stand they hold. Let people restrain themselves cos it determines my participation

Rhymeyjohn: I'll want m.k.o 2005 or alwaystrue as an ally in the discuss.
The issue i raised is rearing it ugly head even in the pre discuss thread, folks being accused of being 'lover of money' for the stand they hold. Let people restrain themselves cos it determines my participation

Please Rhymeyjohn, try contact mko or alwaystrue via PM so as to convey your intention to them. I think it is ok. Though I would ask you get your acts together very well as Candour/Miwerds have gone on ahead in preparation. We will wait for you sha and will begin whenever you are ready.

I also request that you try and ignore the insults. It is something we cannot avoid on threads like this. I can assure you, however, that those who you are discussing with and I will not allow our discuss to degenerate to insults.

In my next two posts, I will outline the rules and regulation, by taking Miwerds' proposal and add it to yours; I will fine tune them and add mine. And post them here in a list of 1- ...; if there is any one we are not comfortable with, we can revise, delete or add.

I will also present a suggested guideline for the presentation.

I trust God that this will be the mother of all tithe discuss.

[size=16pt]Proposed Rules, Regulations and Format of Presentation for the Tithe Discuss:[/size]

1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling, maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to make an opponent look bad. The discuss shall be done with the utmost respect of each person involved - conveying the Christian spirit of love. If anyone feels insulted, he shall be reporting the matter to the moderator; who holds the right to call the other person to order. If this is repeated by the same individual who does not take to correction, the discuss shall be suspended to allow for a replacement of that person.

When someone has been proven to have insulted another, he will be required to make an unreserved apology to the other party. The term of replacing a participants will be when he refuses to make this apology.

2. So as to avoid time wastage, posters will be required to state when they will be making their presentations; and if there arise some unforseen circumstance, they should inform the house about it.

3. Let us keep the aim of the discuss at heart: it is not to win an argument but to present the facts that are behind our position on "tithing" or "not tithing".

4. Both sides in one post shall be presenting 10 points each on thier position on tithing. Each point shall be named after the lead discussants on each side. Thus for Rhymeyjohn, his points shall be listed: R1, R2, R3,...., R10. Miwerds, his points will be M1, M2, M3,...., M10. Here is an example for the post by Rhymey

Example:

R1: Tithe is an Eternal Principle (Heb 20:20; Mark 24:2; ....)

R2: Tithe is compulsory (John 25:1; Ezekiel 60:70;....)

Then Miwerds shall make his own presentation in one post M1,...; along with their scriptural positions.

This is neccesary so that we do not repeat points already discussed. Also, if in the procees of discussing point R2, point R17 had been trashed out, by the time you get to point R17, the two groups could agree to skip it.

When a group makes a presentation and the four steps of response is exhausted, the other group will make their own presentation. So for this discuss, I suggest that Ryhmejohn presents his R1 first; to be followed by Miwerds M1; and the discuss will continue in that manner.

5. Presentation will be in this format

a. Presenting a point, say R1 by Ryhmey, titled Presenting R1. When you are done with your presentation, you should state "end"

b. A rebuttal of R1 by Miwerd/Candour titled Rebutting R1.

c. Then a Response to Rebuttal by Rhymey, titled Response to Rebuttal R1.

d. Then a response to response by Miwerds/Candour titled Response to Response R1.

This way each post on the discuss has a name and can be refered to easily later if there is a need to do so. Also, after a point has been trashed out in this four steps outlined above, it should not be revisited again. Not that the point cannot be mentioned in a latter discuss, but that this particular discuss will be considered finished at this point and there will be no need to refer to it again. This is to discourage un-ending hammering of a point. Therefore participants are expected to do a thorough work in the two opportunities they have to present on a point.

6. Time must be permitted for each group to make their presentations. If anyone is handicapped and cannot make his/her presentation as quickly as possible, he/she may refer to the other to help him do it or tell the house when he intends to come and make the presentation.

7. Anybody among the two can make a presentation, however, he/she is expected to title his presentation properly.

8. This discuss is not intended to last a few days; it will probably take some months; so participants are expected to make the required sacrifice.

9. All points to be presented must be backed up by the Holy Bible, the one accepted by most non-Catholic churches.

10. The moderator shall be DrummaBoy. If any of the participants is uncomfortable with my manner of handling things, a change can be agreed upon. Please note that only participants can make suggestions for rules to be changed.

11. Participants hold the right to drop out of the discuss if they want to: due to fatigue or some or unforeseen circumstances. He/she is however advised to nominate a replacement of himself/herself.

12. While participants are not stopped from engaging the "audience", we would like to discourage this; so they can concentrate on the matters being discussed at hand. If such "engagement" does occur, we advice that it should not be to spite another participant or you will be penalized. Opportunity shall be given to the audience to ask questions but only after the discuss is concluded.

13. Participants are requested not to post on any tithe thread that is currently running on the religion section of this forum in the duration that this discuss will hold.

14. To curb excessive waste of time, we hereby request that when the discuss begin and participants are requested to make their presentations, the very first presentation should not take more than 24 hours to be done (with correction and editing). Subsequent responses to that presentation (that is the next three steps) should not take more than 12 hours to be done. If these rules are not adhered to the moderators will have to come up with a commensurate act of penalizing the participants.

Please visit this post over and over again, because in the course of the discussion, amendments will be made as we all agree to them, and we are expected to keep abreast of what the rules are.

So over to Rhymeyjohn, Mark Miwerds and Candour. What do you guys make of the above?

^^
While not add these?

7. The audience members shall not ask follow-up
questions asked by the audience or the answers of the
candidates during the debate.

8. HBG would moderate

And the idea of 20points poured out at inception makes this less of a discussion/conversation but a debate.

Gombs: ^^
While not add these?

7. The audience members shall not ask follow-up
questions asked by the audience or the answers of the
candidates during the debate.

8. HBG would moderate

And the idea of 20points poured out at inception makes this less of a discussion/conversation but a debate.

Only the participants can make changes to the rules. If any of them consider your point valid, they can present them to me and I will make the changes if agreed to by all the other participants.