ajayikayod:

If u tell me dt Luk 4:15 doesnt apply to us again, is it not also d word of Jesus? As u described, we ar to carry out every word from d Master. How will those b done away wit and others remain. I think from ur explanations all should remain. 2 Corith 3 never categorize Law, it called it one name: Moses. And he said its Law of condemnation, sin and death.

If u believ Christ supported tithing, isnt it clear here dt he supported animal sacrifice too?I won t agree wit u neglectin a part of it in d name of it was done away wit. The truth is, two laws cant exist side by side. Thr is a law of sin and death in Moses and a law of Spirit of life in Christ. Its not a modification, or upgrade, its a total annulment of old for d new. It amazed me why we still see d Law of d Spirit side by side wit d Moses, They dont even resemble each other. In applications, effects, consequence, judgment etc. Do u compare all ds to kno d difference? Mayb u should.

Also, can u tell me, of wat Law do u live by? Law of d Spirit or Law of Moses?

On Matt 23:23; Someone already told u wat d weightier things of d Law were as said by Jesus. But do u actually think those are d same as in d Law of d Spirit? Do u think the weightier thing (love) as given in d Law of Moses is d same as given by d Spirit of life? See wat d Law says about love:

Matt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (Ds is wat d Law called Love)

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Ds is wat d Spirit calls Love).

How is d above d same message, law, instructions, commandments? How? How is Moses (moral law) as u called it d same as Christ Law. How?

At d end of d tunnel of Moses thr resides d Light, d Spirit and God. Until we reach such end we mit not b able to differentiate btw d Spirit and Moses.

.. let mie ask you, in matt 23v 23, the weightier matters of the law Jesus was talking about, do they still apply to you today or is it discarded?If u can't answer any, pls answer my last question. Thank you

Gombs: The Teachings of Jesus

By the time of Jesus, the great moral principles God had given to Moses in the Ten Commandments had been turned into hundreds of ceremonial rules. People thought they were living holy lives if they just obeyed all those rules. But Jesus disagreed. He said people found enough "loopholes" to obey all the rules and still live wicked and greedy lives (Matthew 23:23-28).

Jesus made one statement about the Law that often causes confusion:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

Christians have struggled to understand exactly what Jesus meant. At first reading, this seems to say that all the Old Testament rules and rituals must still be observed. But Jesus and His disciples did not observe many of those rules and rituals, so it could not mean that.

It is frequently pointed out that the term "the Law" could have many different meanings at the time of Jesus:

The ceremonial laws including "clean" and "unclean" lists, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, ritual washings, etc.
The civil law regulating social behavior and specifying crimes, punishments and other rules
The moral and ethical laws, such as the Ten CommandmentsThe Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible)
The scribal law - the 600+ rules formulated by the scribes that everyone was expected to obey
The Scripture as a whole

[size=16pt] Jesus did not abolish the moral and ethical laws that had been in effect from the time of Moses. [/size] He affirmed and expanded upon those principles, but He said obedience must be from the heart (attitudes and intentions) rather than just technical observance of the letter of the law (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44, etc.).

However, Jesus and His disciples did not observe the strict scribal rules against doing any work on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-14,Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11, 13:10-17, 14:1-6, John 5:1-18). Neither did they perform the ritual hand washings before eating (Matthew 15:1-2). In contrast to the dietary rules of the Law, Jesus said no food can defile a person; it is bad attitudes and actions that can make a person unholy (Matthew 15:1-20, Mark 7:1-23).

Jesus frequently criticized the scribal laws (Matthew 23:23, Mark 7:11-13) and some aspects of the civil law (John 8:3-5, 10-11). [size=16pt] Therefore, Jesus was specifically teaching that the moral and ethical laws in the Scripture would endure until the end of time. [/size]

That would be consistent with His actions and other teachings. Through His teachings and actions, Jesus revealed the true meaning and intent of the Law.It is also pointed out that Jesus, Himself, is the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 26:28, Mark 10:45, Luke 16:16, John 1:16, Acts 10:28,13:39, Romans 10:4)  The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross ended forever the need for animal sacrifices and other aspects of the ceremonial law.

@joagbaje, yeah, ethics and moral laws are principles of God, they are not abolished, and like u rightly pointed out, conscience and other yardsticks folks wanna use to justify their acts would ALWAYS end in error, the law is th e foundation of right and wrong. Folks esp anti tithers say the law is completely abolished, just to nullify tithing, but the fail to see that when Paul asked Timothy to study, it was actually the law of Moses, ethics and morals, not ceremonial cleasing or scribal law etc. They say the law is completely abolished, but they don't have sexx with their siblings or infants, just because "conscience" is at work, forgetting that terrorist who bomb up pple have the their own form of conscience, which to them is right... some folks who never had any form of upbringing thinks it is right to kill who ever pisses them off, that is his conscience...what then? It all ends in error without the foundation in the law....the laws of the western world were crafted outta tye Bible (laws of moses)...be it death penalty, laws against rape, inbreeding, murder, robbery etc. How then do we reconcil the fact that the law is completely abolished with the fact that its moral and ethical stance arenvery much operational today and acceptable to God?

And as u rightly pointed out again, the only issue with the law, the only problem with is was that it cannot bring justification for anybody... hewbrews 7:11 and 19, they said, the Law never made anything perfect, that's why Jesus had to come, to get us that perfection. No wonder he said he didn't come to abolish the law.

The fact is that we are NO LONGER under the law, simply because it made nothing perfect, not because it is not Good (paul said in rom7v7 that the law is not sinful, in other words, the law of God is not identical to sin)

I look forward to a wonderful session on this topic!

Alwaystrue:

If you could cool down and read what I have been saying from the beginning of my post on this thread, you will understand that I said behind every law of the letter was the law of the Spirit.

The law of the Spirit is 'Do not lust'; the law of the letter is 'Do not commit adultery'. Jesus came to give the full expression, the fulfilment of the law not ANNUL it. Whoever goes ahead to physically commit the adultery ( that is bring to reality the lust in his heart) has placed himself under the law (Gal. 5:18, he is not walking in the Spirit) and needs to run back to Jesus for MERCY and grace to HELP. That us the school master bringing is to Christ like the adulterous woman that Christ said 'Go nd Sin no more'. Commiting physical adultery has consequencess that many suffer from even today.
If the person does not carry out the lust, he has still sinned in God's eyes and needs to ask for forgiveness from God.

Gombs:

Pls answer me first

ajayikayod:

Is it not on Matt 23:23?
I hav already answered u in d post u quoted from. Its here again.

On Matt 23:23; Someone already told u wat d weightier things of d Law were as said by Jesus. But do u actually think those are d same as in d Law of d Spirit? Do u think the weightier thing (love) as given in d Law of Moses is d same as given by d Spirit of life? See wat d Law says about love:

Matt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (Ds is wat d Law called Love)

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Ds is wat d Spirit calls Love).

How is d above d same message, law, instructions, commandments? How? How is Moses (moral law) as u called it d same as Christ Law. How?

At d end of d tunnel of Moses thr resides d Light, d Spirit and God. Until we reach such end we mit not b able to differentiate btw d Spirit and Moses.

the weightier matters of the law Jesus was talking about, do they still apply to you today or is it discarded?

Gombs:

Seems u have a problem with answering simple direct kweshun...

ajayikayod:
Was right and wrong known in d days of Adam, Noah, Enoch, Abraham etc without such Law of sin and death given? Did they kno right/wrong or not?

ajayikayod:

Well if u cant see my stand in those post i will giv u a simple one.

I dont live by d Law of Moses (sin and death) nor d weightier of it, they are done away wit. I live by d Law of d Spirit of Life.

Gombs: .. remember folks of old had faith, eg david, joshua, justice and mercy too..they and others had it too...

Congratulations!

Gombs:

Jesus said
...and have omitted the [size=16pt] weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: [/size] these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

By ur abv post...faith, mercy and justice is discarded....weldone o... remember folks of old had faith, eg david, joshua, ...folks of old too had justice and mercy too.

Congratulations!

Joagbaje:

Abraham was the father of faith. And we took after him na.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Joagbaje:

There was no written document . Information about God was handed down with mouth . It has it's own challenge .

Genesis 18:19
For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Documents remains without alteration .the law of Moses put all together both the one handed down by mouth and the one pened down at Gods instruction .

The issue is not about being a law for us but rather foundational principles and references. A new creation has no commandment to obey but he is a doer of the principles in the word.

ajayikayod:

Did d Law of Moses ever talked about Faith? If u study Matt 23:23 well, u will kno wat it refers to.

ajayikayod:

Did d Law of Moses ever talked about Faith? If u study Matt 23:23 well, u will kno wat it refers to.

ajayikayod:

U quoted ds passage in ur Op

Psalms 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Ds d same reason dt d Moses' Law couldnt b foundation of R/W for believers. Its a path to condemnation.

Joagbaje:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
:

What scripture did the early church have to study?

Bidam: Yes..The passover was kept by Faith..Ex 12:21 in reference to Heb 11:28..The patriachs were justified by Faith not by Law...Do go beyond the letters abeg..

What you are insinuating here is that we should discard the whole torah from Genesis to Malachi because the are of a different era. And we shouldn't glean any principles from them.

If your christianinty is limited to only new testament epistles which according to you started from acts of the apostle then i wish you luck.

These are books i read in 2days and i still hungry for more sef....

Bidam: I am in line..

Bidam:
You are the guy here shifting the goal post.

Bidam:
Ofcos you have forgotten that it is not everything in the bible that is the word of God.bible simply means goodnews.

ajayikayod:
Bro morning. Pls dont bring in dt part of tithe as mentioned in d Law existed b4 d Law. Its always good to make clear distinction on time and purpose of instructions as given in d bible.
D Op made it clear in his title dt no man (including believers) can kno d right and wrong outside Moses Law. Dts pure error. And linking dt wit tithe and offering issues again is open insincerity on d Op's side and dts wat u ar doing too.
Was right and wrong known in d days of Adam, Noah, Enoch, Abraham etc without such Law of sin and death given? Did they kno right/wrong or not?

Joagbaje:
My point is that the law is still very relevance because it contains foundational principles .

mba emeka:


Joagbaje has already answered you. God already handed down instructions to Adam and co by mouth or in any way audible. A case in point was the do not eat out of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instruction he gave to Adam. Subsequently he gave moses the law which he had to write down. The law became an avenue to know the dos and don't s of God. Paul explained that in Romans 3:19-20. The law contained moral and ethical principles that are still relevant today especially in showing what is right and wrong. The apostles made reference to it. They encouraged their followers to do like wise.

Is this even a discussion?

Jesus didn't abolish the law. He came to fulfill it thereby ushering us into God's only plan for righteousness - through him. We cannot teach or believe otherwise. It foments some of the errors we see today- gay marriages and what not.

Zikkyy:

How can you be in line when you are posting out of point? what has "is the bible the word of God" gat to do with my comment that there will be confusion in church the day pastor present a bible containing the gospel according to apostle joagbaje?



How? did you read me changing my original statement?



because you are of the view not everything written in the bible is the word of God, joagbaje can add his gospel to the bible abi? BTW are you now saying joagbaje can also include his own gospel even though it has nothing to do with God? i believe that is what you meant when you said "Ofcos you have forgotten that it is not everything in the bible that is the word of God"

Bidam: oK..IF YOUR HEADACHE is cured.. you can come back to the main gist of the thread.

Zikkyy:

yes o. knowing that you have nothing to say cured my headache

Gombs: guess this has been discuss exhaustively... I'd however watch from the sidelines. Would be away for a large part of today though...ajayi, thanks for you time and civil nature.

Joagbaje:

The subject of discussion is not faith . Its about the condemnation of the law and the old testament scriptures.

My point is that the law is still very relevance because it contains foundational principles . Early apostles quoted from the law because the only scripture they had was the law and prophets .

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
.

So if you take away the Old Testament . You have taken away the scriptures

Bidam: Yes..The passover was kept by Faith..Ex 12:21 in reference to Heb 11:28..The patriachs were justified by Faith not by Law...Do go beyond the letters abeg..

What you are insinuating here is that we should discard the whole torah from Genesis to Malachi because the are of a different era. And we shouldn't glean any principles from them.

If your christianinty is limited to only new testament epistles which according to you started from acts of the apostle then i wish you luck.

These are books i read in 2days and i still hungry for more sef....[/b]

mba emeka:


Joagbaje has already answered you. God already handed down instructions to Adam and co by mouth or in any way audible. A case in point was the do not eat out of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instruction he gave to Adam. Subsequently he gave moses the law which he had to write down. The law became an avenue to know the dos and don't s of God. Paul explained that in Romans 3:19-20. The law contained moral and ethical principles that are still relevant today especially in showing what is right and wrong. The apostles made reference to it. They encouraged their followers to do like wise.

Is this even a discussion?

Jesus didn't abolish the law. He came to fulfill it thereby ushering us into God's only plan for righteousness - through him. We cannot teach or believe otherwise. It foments some of the errors we see today- gay marriages and what not.

ajayikayod:
Do u remember Rom 10:4 4 For Christ is the end (termination, finality) of the law for righteousness

Ephesians 6:2
Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise