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Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by nlMediator: 9:56pm On Jan 04, 2014
DrummaBoy: @Gombs
Sorry my friend you have not provided one scripture that shows that the laws given through Moses can be subdivided into Ceremonial, Moral, Civil, Ethical or Scribal. Now, it is really not your fault that you can't find such a scripture. The fact is that there is no such scripture in the whole of the bible. I understand the position of nlmediator who says that though such a scripture does not exist, we could subdivide the laws Ceremonial, Civil and Moral, for our own learning and understanding. I believe such theological position was taken in the same way the word "trinity" was coined to understand the three person in the God-head. But the problem with his distinction and yours is that while he subdivides his own to three, you subdivide yours to five! Adding ethical and scribal. Does it mean that we are all at liberty to divide Moses laws the way we like and take up the parts we want to keep in our dispensation while discarding the rest? Does it not further prove that the whole process of sub-division is the "wisdom of men" and has little or nothing to do with God? If a theological term like trinity is coined to understand God better, what does subdividing Moses laws achieve? Is it not better to leave it the way it is and approach it the way the NT commands us to?
Now to help me comprehend this subdivision more you refer me to Matthew 23:23 and showed that Judgement, Mercy and Faith will come under the division of Ethical and Moral laws. But that position leaves behind a lot of questions. One of them is that do we now subdivide the laws of Moses to Judgement, Mercy, Faith and Tithes (as tithes must be included in the subdivision even though it is not weighty)? In that sense what happens to other divisions of the law that include ceremonial, civil and scribal? If Jesus was really subdividing the laws, do you not think he would have mentioned those too even though they may have be done away with in our dispensations? The truth about Matthew 23:23 is that it was not about subdividing the laws of Moses as you would have us believe. Jesus was simply helping us to comprehend the weighty matters of Moses law and the light ones. Laws that do not apply to Christians today by the way.
So you see that you have not shown any scripture that subdivides the law of Moses.
When the NT talks about Moses laws, it never sees it in a three or five sub division; it sees it as a whole and it is all the whole that is refered to as a ministry of death (2 Corinthian 3); it is all the whole that has been abolished in the cross of Jesus (Hebrew 8:13).
I cannot agree with the OP that the law of Moses is a "foundation" for us today. What that statement implies is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. That is error raised to the power of error and the result is unimaginable error. This is the reason why we have all the wrong teachings that pervade the church today.
The problem we have with tithing stems from the wrong foundation. If you see Christianity as a continuation or a modified form of Judaism, then you will modify some of the practices in Judaism and impose on Christians today. What we however, have noticed about the tithe is that in regards to it, this modification has the hand of what I would call the conspiracy of the clergy in it. These men of God have browsed through all the 613 laws of Moses and singled out some, especially the tithe (and lets not forget first fruit too this January) that will benefit their ministry and called it tithe. They take offence that we have shown them that it is not God's holy tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) and they make their followers persecute us for taking such stance (I will not bore you with what anti-tithers go through in their local churches here).
Christianity is not Judaism.
Law is law in the NT and has no subdivision.
Paul the apostle was an inspired author of scriptures and helped us to see how the law came to an end.
The Christian man follows a new law: the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the law to love God and men.
There are dispensations in God's dealing with men and it will be good we learn that doctrine ASAP.
Cheers!

First off, I did not limit my categories to 3. I used etc. after mentioning some types. But seriously, does it really matter if one person identifies fewer categories or not? It may well depend on the approach one person takes in trying to explain something. Moreover, there may be some overlap as some laws can fall into more than one category. E.g., the Nigerian constitution says the police (ordinarily) cannot detain you for more than 48 hours without charging you to court. That provision falls under both Constitutional Law and Criminal Law/Procedure.

Some of you are opposed to a resort to laws but you keep on creating your own laws for the rest of us. So, now there’s a law that says that we cannot subdivide phenomena or that it is wrong to do so? So, all the time we spend in (secular or even theological) class learning typology is a waste of time?

You ask the purpose of subdivision. One purpose is to provide clarity and ease of discussion. Another is to understand the type of laws that are not applicable today in any sense. The ceremonial laws that forbid a menstruating woman from the house of God are no longer useful. The civil laws can help us organize our political system but a Christian is not bound by them. Don’t forget God gave Israel laws to govern them politically in addition to spiritually because God was their political leader. Today, God does not play such a role and each country can adopt whatever political system that works for it. Christians in those countries need not insist on the Bible provisions. E.g. the U.S. accepted the idea from the Bible that people born in a place are citizens of that country. The U.K. does not accept that. There are also moral laws like abstaining from adultery, which may or not be part of the civil law. There are rules for conducting business ethically. There are rules applicable to only certain categories of people, like priests and Levites. To claim that all these rules are the same in every material particular is a position that is difficult to sustain. As is any claim that because somebody says that murder is wrong, he also has to accept that observing feasts is required of the Christian.

Finally, you claim that as Christians we are governed by love. I agree. If you love somebody, you won’t steal from him, take his wife or murder him. But what the OP is saying and I agree is: how do you know that what you call walking in love is not actually wrong? E.g., X loves his neighbor and wants his neighbor’s kids to have a happy life. X believes that if the neighbor’s daughter has extensive sexual experience, it will assure her a happy married life. So, X, who worked as a porn star in his past life, mentions it to the neighbor and the daughter and they buy the idea. X then sleeps with her. Is X’s act a sin?
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by DrummaBoy(m): 10:25pm On Jan 04, 2014
@nlmediator

X's act is a sin.

How did I come to that conclusion? Because Moses' laws or the Moral aspect of Moses' law says we should not fornicate? No. Because the New Testament says so.

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. - 1 Corinthians 6 and some other NT scriptures like it.

Someone will say Paul found his inspiration from the Old Testament. I would say yes and no. The faith that justifies the Christian saints today has the law and the prophets testifying about them (Romans 3:21). So, yes, the law gave the inspiration for the coming of the Christian faith but I used the word "inspiration" rather than "foundation" because Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism. They are different.

The Christian faith was sealed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ but when our Lord had gone; he sent the Holy Spirit who will eventually instruct the Apostles on how the Church and Christians life will work. This is what we have documented in the NT. First the Church or what we like to call the Church Age Dispensation has its life and theology built on the Apostles and Prophets - That is Peter, James, Paul, etc.

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. - Ephesians 3

Permit me to say that these apostles and prophets introduced a brand new "religion" called Christianity. Who primary rule of life was walking in love; and with whom we had the Holy Spirit to instruct on what this love consist of. Now the OP has gone on and on about some people making conscience and other things their standard of rule which is bound to fail. True. But the resort to Moses to find "foundation" for Christianity is equally wrong. So what do we do. The New Testament, writtten by inspired Apostles and Prophets have all the rules and regulation the Christian man needs for life and godliness.

But indeed there arises some cases where it may not be distinctively clear what the Christian should do. Where does he get his standard of law from. From Moses? Capital NO. From NT? It might not be there. From where then? From the Spirit within him. God will tell him what to do.

Paul's grouse with the Judaizer of his time was that they wanted to make Christianity a continuation of Judaism. Paul made it clear to them that Christianty was starting off by itself; even though a lot had been prophesied about it in the OT. The OT may provide inspiration for Christianity but it is certainly not the foundation for it.

If you read my text well, you will notice that the only reason I criticize the subdivision is the tendency to divide it to the point of discarding some and keeping some. The NT discards the whole thing! Now for those who say we should cut off the OT from our bibles and read only new. I don't do that. In fact I am reading the OT in my personal study right now. It provides INSPIRATION for the NT and that is why the apostles encouraged that we read it.

On the matter of law, holiness and righteousness. It is incumbent on Christian ministers to not only teach the bible correctly but to live it correctly in holiness. It will inform the manner in which they teach the word, encouraging the saints on the path of godliness without the need for resorting to Moses. Indeed, there are sins coming out today that even Moses never envisioned, just like the OP said. How do we handle such? The answer lies with the Spirit. But when we have godly ministers they can point us on the right path and we will walk it without getting hurt or without keeping Moses. This is what Ephesian 4-6; colosians 3; etc, consists of.

The NT does not subdivide Moses' laws. And no one has yet provided a scripture for such subdivision. It is ok if we subdivide it to comprehend it but to make a standard for the law we keep or not keep is wrong. Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by ajayikayod: 10:47pm On Jan 04, 2014
Compliment of d season to all.

Great discussion going on here.

Many theologians or teachers of d Word could come out wit certain rules in classifying d Law into groups for easy illustrations. Dt's not an issue provided it doesnt alter interpretations of such scriptures.

D main concern here is d fact dt whn ever d epistles mention d LAW it carries a singular meaning:-ALL D LAW AS GIVEN BY MOSES (either we call it moral, sacrificial, ethical .....).

Its important to then kno whr d believr stand whn it comes to d issue of d Law. Romans 8:2 summarizes it all.

FOR D LAW OF D SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE ME FREE FROM D LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

A believer wont kill not becos d Law (Moses) say so but because d Spirit teaches so.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Joagbaje(m): 10:57pm On Jan 04, 2014
^^
How does a believer know right and wrong without knowledge of right and wrong.
Is incest a sin? If yes says who?
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by nlMediator: 11:26pm On Jan 04, 2014
DrummaBoy: @nlmediator
X's act is a sin.
How did I come to that conclusion? Because Moses' laws or the Moral aspect of Moses' law says we should not fornicate? No. Because the New Testament says so.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. - 1 Corinthians 6 and some other NT scriptures like it.
Someone will say Paul found his inspiration from the Old Testament. I would say yes and no. The faith that justifies the Christian saints today has the law and the prophets testifying about them (Romans 3:21). So, yes, the law gave the inspiration for the coming of the Christian faith but I used the word "inspiration" rather than "foundation" because Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism. They are different.
The Christian faith was sealed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ but when our Lord had gone; he sent the Holy Spirit who will eventually instruct the Apostles on how the Church and Christians life will work. This is what we have documented in the NT. First the Church or what we like to call the Church Age Dispensation has its life and theology built on the Apostles and Prophets - That is Peter, James, Paul, etc.
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. - Ephesians 3
Permit me to say that these apostles and prophets introduced a brand new "religion" called Christianity. Who primary rule of life was walking in love; and with whom we had the Holy Spirit to instruct on what this love consist of. Now the OP has gone on and on about some people making conscience and other things their standard of rule which is bound to fail. True. But the resort to Moses to find "foundation" for Christianity is equally wrong. So what do we do. The New Testament, writtten by inspired Apostles and Prophets have all the rules and regulation the Christian man needs for life and godliness.
But indeed there arises some cases where it may not be distinctively clear what the Christian should do. Where does he get his standard of law from. From Moses? Capital NO. From NT? It might not be there. From where then? From the Spirit within him. God will tell him what to do.
Paul's grouse with the Judaizer of his time was that they wanted to make Christianity a continuation of Judaism. Paul made it clear to them that Christianty was starting off by itself; even though a lot had been prophesied about it in the OT. The OT may provide inspiration for Christianity but it is certainly not the foundation for it.
If you read my text well, you will notice that the only reason I criticize the subdivision is the tendency to divide it to the point of discarding some and keeping some. The NT discards the whole thing! Now for those who say we should cut off the OT from our bibles and read only new. I don't do that. In fact I am reading the OT in my personal study right now. It provides INSPIRATION for the NT and that is why the apostles encouraged that we read it.
On the matter of law, holiness and righteousness. It is incumbent on Christian ministers to not only teach the bible correctly but to live it correctly in holiness. It will inform the manner in which they teach the word, encouraging the saints on the path of godliness without the need for resorting to Moses. Indeed, there are sins coming out today that even Moses never envisioned, just like the OP said. How do we handle such? The answer lies with the Spirit. But when we have godly ministers they can point us on the right path and we will walk it without getting hurt or without keeping Moses. This is what Ephesian 4-6; colosians 3; etc, consists of.
The NT does not subdivide Moses' laws. And no one has yet provided a scripture for such subdivision. It is ok if we subdivide it to comprehend it but to make a standard for the law we keep or not keep is wrong. Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there.

Thanks for your straighforward answer. This is what you wrote in the post I responded to that prompted my question: "The Christian man follows a new law: the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the law to love God and men." In your answer, you did not say you were guided by love to know that X's act is sinful but you said you were guided by the NT. Had you said that, I would not have posed the question - and if you recall I said your point about geting rules from the NT was solid. The problem is that many of you that talk about grace always claim that your guide is love, but as your answer shows, it's not just love or conscience; it's also rules. But we hardly ever hear that part from the mouth of grace teachers.

You said where it is not clear from the NT what a believer should do, he should follow his conscience. Where 2 believers (husband and wife) get 2 different messages from the conscience about the rightness or wrongness of a proposed act, but the OT is clear about that, your argument is that one or both of them should go ahead and take a decision or action that is contrary to the OT. Why, when it's obvious that at least one of them would be wrong?

Sure, christianity is a different religion from Judaism. But Judaism still holds a special place in Christianity. In Rom. 10, especially verses 16-17, Paul shows a clear link between Christianity and Judaism. The root is the same. Christians and Jews are branches of the same vine. No other religion is accorded this privilege. So to treat Judaism as something completely unacceptable for all purposes is not scriptural.

Finally, you wrote: "Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there." I don't see the difference. They are both collections and systems of rules. And who told you that Nigeria's laws are subdivided? Who subdivided them - the Legislature that made the laws?
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by ajayikayod: 11:34pm On Jan 04, 2014
Joagbaje: ^^
How does a believer know right and wrong without knowledge of right and wrong.
Is incest a sin? If yes says who?

Like i pointed out above, he knows dt whic is perfect by d Spirit not by d Law. Mind u, d knowledge of right and wrong is not found only in d Law (Moses), mayb dts whr d mix up is. D Spirit acknowledges, approves, corrects, instructs and teaches not by d Law of Sin and Death but of Life.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Goshen360(m): 12:44am On Jan 05, 2014
@ Drummaboy,

From your last post to nlMediator, I will later show our brethren from scriptures that holiness is not what a Christian need TO DO as with WORKS OF THE LAW, holiness is what a Christian LIVE OUT AS WITH FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

Everything a Christian needs as you rightly said, is contained in the Gospel of the new covenant, there's no biblical Apostolic teachings to return to the law, when we have come to Christ.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Joagbaje(m): 3:22am On Jan 05, 2014
ajayikayod:

Like i pointed out above, he knows dt whic is perfect by d Spirit not by d Law. Mind u, d knowledge of right and wrong is not found only in d Law (Moses), mayb dts whr d mix up is. D Spirit acknowledges, approves, corrects, instructs and teaches not by d Law of Sin and Death but of Life.

The scripture the early church had was the Old Testament .

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The only issue is that a man is no longer justified by works . The new was based on the old . But in the Old Testament time they sought justification by them but for us we are doing the word . Adultery is still adultery , murder is still murder.

I will ask a question : if a father would have sex with his own daughter by her consent is it a sin ?

If an elder would brother have sex with his sister by consent is it a sin?

And pls don't say it doesn't happen becsuse I counsel many people. And some don't even know it's wrong. Some close relative have married one another . Some families are having issues over such marriages . Until you show them from scriptures . And they go . " is it in the bible? but I love her , what do I do. ?

Why would Paul and other apostle be instructing early church on morality when they have Holy Spirit in them to lead them into all truth .

Romans 7:7
Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet
.”

The moral instructions of the apostles were based on the law. They can't justify or make or righteous before God. We have the nature of God and the ability to do right but we must learn the right and wrong to develop our senses. If not conscience can be defiled and hardened. And we may not know.

Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


Take for example Christians insulting , harassing , lying and abusing others on this forum , how come the Holy Spirit hadn't told them this is evil . We can't blame our wrongs on the holly spirit becsuse. " HE HASNT TOLD ME " it's for us to study and develop the character of God. Our knowledge and development is personal responsibility regardless of our titles .

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:


What word , remember the scripture they had was Old Testament . Paul asked for his scrolls he told Timothy to study. ( Old Testament )

The only condemnation of the law is that it lack the power to justification because christ had done that for us. But the moral principle of the law are for learning .

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

3 Likes

Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Nobody: 6:18am On Jan 05, 2014
What a ridiculous question..What have i been shouting my self hoarse here for Bring it out let's see the lies you spewed against me that i said a christian is justified by mosaic laws rather than Faith in Christ Jesus..cheesy
Goshen360:

Do you want me dig up your law teachings? grin
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Nobody: 7:04am On Jan 05, 2014
Goshen360: @ Drummaboy,

From your last post to nlMediator, I will later show our brethren from scriptures that holiness is not what a Christian need TO DO as with WORKS OF THE LAW, holiness is what a Christian LIVE OUT AS WITH FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

Everything a Christian needs as you rightly said, is contained in the Gospel of the new covenant, there's no biblical Apostolic teachings to return to the law, when we have come to Christ.
Did you see how you are shooting yourself in the foot? No one is saying Holiness is obtained by personal effort here.

I can confidently vouch for myself that what i have been shouting on this forum is there are TWO aspect of holiness in the believer's life.

While God defines us and calls us holy; while God says we are a holy nation and a holy priesthood, God also requires us to PURSUE HOLINESS..Read 1pet 1:13-16.

Niv says "prepare your minds for ACTION"..this is a verb, a doing word..what you guys have been teaching here is only one sided holiness,What you are telling Christians here is that after salvation we fold our hands and go to sleep.Scriptures never said that.

Peter tells us here to be HOLY. God has done his part by giving us the HOLY Spirit and we have to do our own part by cooperating with the Holy Spirit to be a sanctified vessels unto the Lord.

The Holy Spirit has been there since Genesis and He will be there in revelations.You cannot say the Holy Spirit is only in the NT.

The OT teachings is FULL of the Spirit of God as well as the NT teachings. You don't select only what your flesh desires in the NT and discard OT principles.

Majority of the NT teachings are COPIOUSLY QUOTED by Peter,John,Paul, James and others from OT scrolls..So what are we saying here.

No one is saying christianity is an offshoot of judaism here abeg.

God COMMANDS and requires us to be HOLY and this is a NT teaching by Peter who quoted an OT law.

Holiness is not total absolute perfection.Holiness is a state of abounding spiritual health, a place of propsring spiritually.

The false concept of holiness you guys are thinking here is that it is an outward,burdensome,heavy,hypocritical and pharisaical bondage. That is not what i am talking about here abeg.

Thank God for the Holy Spirit.The Holiness i am saying is one that produces the joy of the Lord.The one that when you see sin you hate it with every fibre in your being just like God hates sin.

That is true holiness,not the one done to bee seen by men,not pious appearances but one that emanates from our hearts.

Goshen and co..The Holiness i am talking about is a place of a happy submission of our wills onto Him, of a joyful surrender of obedience unto the Lord; of the glorious adventure of becoming just like God our Father, just like our big brother and saviour Jesus Christ; of the bliss of being infused with the light and character of the Holy Spirit. And that is why i emphasized on the law of God in my teachings..With the Law comes a knowledge of sin.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Gombs(m): 7:06am On Jan 05, 2014
@Joagbaje, uv closed the thread...what more shd/could I say?

If folks still don't get the abov explanation, then, well....we'd keep praying for such fellow!

Goshen, apologise, cos its clear we are gonna ignore ur posts on this thread, till u openly admit u wronged us or apologise.


@drummaboy, pls I'd like to know what you think of what @joagbaje wrote above. Thank you
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Nobody: 7:51am On Jan 05, 2014
Gombs: @Joagbaje, uv closed the thread...what more shd/could I say?

If folks still don't get the abov explanation, then, well....we'd keep praying for such fellow!

Goshen, apologise, cos its clear we are gonna ignore ur posts on this thread, till u openly admit u wronged us or apologise.


@drummaboy, pls I'd like to know what you think of what @joagbaje wrote above. Thank you
Yeah wonderful submissoin by Oga Jo...as for drumma you don't need to bother about him..he was the one that made a ridiculous statement in a thread about an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe. I had lost every iota of respect i had for him when he made that statement.

He even went ahead to ridicule himself the more by opening a thread for the said atheist thinking he could convert him.Because of him the atheist blasphemed the name of God..You need to check out that thread.It was a show of shame really.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Gombs(m): 8:22am On Jan 05, 2014
Bidam: Yeah wonderful submissoin by Oga Jo...as for drumma you don't need to bother about him.. he was the one that made a ridiculous statement in a thread about an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe . I had lost every iota of respect i had for him when he made that statement.

He even went ahead to ridicule himself the more by opening a thread for the said atheist thinking he could convert him Because of him the atheist blasphemed the name of God..You need to check out that thread.It was a show of shame really

At the first bold, I can't believe anybody who calls himself a Christian could say that...drummerboy, did u really say that? Even when bible said we should be good to everyone ESPECIALLY those of the household Of faith?

@bidam, i knew atheists and anti tithers had a romance few months back, they were both attacking on tithers, but I can't believe it degenerated to this extent.

At second bold, pls bidam if u could fetc me those links, I'd be very glad. Drummerboy, what sayeth thou on th above? Was it true u actually said that?
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by DrummaBoy(m): 12:15pm On Jan 05, 2014
Bidam: Yeah wonderful submissoin by Oga Jo...as for drumma you don't need to bother about him..he was the one that made a ridiculous statement in a thread about an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe. I had lost every iota of respect i had for him when he made that statement.

He even went ahead to ridicule himself the more by opening a thread for the said atheist thinking he could convert him.Because of him the atheist blasphemed the name of God..You need to check out that thread.It was a show of shame really.

This is the link to the so called thread where you claimed I made the statement: https://www.nairaland.com/1565571/inviting-rudedough-discussion-god

If you have any iota of integrity left in you I want you to quote me verbatim from that thread and show me where I made this statement:

[size=16pt]an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe[/size]

Or where I made a statement that can infer the above.

As for the respect you thought you had for me, you can shove it... everyone knows Bidam has no respect for any one that does not pay the fraudulent tithe

It was Image123 that first invented this lie in the tithe discuss. But since he was not bold enough to mention my monicker, I simply ignored it. But now that the chief word-twister has taken up the matter, I ask that you quote me correctly and not make twisted inferences.

Image123:

There are fellows on this forum who care less for many of Jesus' words and commandments, who would not be caught or found preaching against sin, or speaking out against sin, folks who would never say anything for the cause of Christ in the face of atheists and other glaring unbelievers, but are so vehement when the T word is mentioned. Its sometimes so bad that i've read someone say that an atheist is closer to God and better than a tither. But thank God for God.

So I have provided his words verbatim. You could do the same with mine. You can be sure I will not edit anything on those posts and I will stand by every word I have spoken.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by DrummaBoy(m): 12:22pm On Jan 05, 2014
I have noticed that the chief occupation of law advocates on this forum is to leave the matters that are being discussed and dig up matter that do not relate with those.

When I came to this forum seeking understanding into the tithe, it was Alwaystrue that raised up some allegations against Goshen360 about his definition of fornication. A matter that had nothing to do with the tithe question I asked. Of course it had the effect she was seeking it to have; because of this I sent a PM to Goshen introducing myself and the first thing I asked him was his views on fornication. He explained himself and that was it. But despite having provided the same explanation to her and her allies on this forum she is still going on and on about it; even bringing it to the very thread.

So it is not surprising to see Bidam doing this about the thread I opened to discuss with an atheist. You can come to whatever conclusion you want about that thread but if you will quote me anywhere, I request you quote me correctly and not make twisted inferences.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by DrummaBoy(m): 12:31pm On Jan 05, 2014
@nlmediator

I will attend to the issues you raised in your post ASAP.

Thanks.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Goshen360(m): 12:54pm On Jan 05, 2014
^ ^ ^
You are a good man my brother but one thing you must learn, you must learn how to deal with people in General, Christian or no Christian. Please, allow me to deal with the brethren or they will end up leaving this thread. That's what they end up doing when you hit them with the truth starring them in the face. I'm used to that but even when Alwaystrue comes up with this issue many times, I gave contextual meaning Paul wasn't talking about a "virgin" as someone who had not had se.x but Paul differentiate between a virgin and a wife.

The truth is, many Christians, especially Nigerians are stucked in religion and Judaism thinking they are practicing Christianity especially in Nigerian way. I made up my mind to live for God and so I'm doing by Grace of God. This word that was entrusted into our hands must not be preached with traditions of men else we make void the Cross of Christ.

The Lord, by the Spirit taught me what is going on amongst us Christians today from what Peter said about the Epistles of Paul, that "somethings are HARD to UNDERSTANDING". In deed, many Christians are still finding it HARD to UNDERSTAND. The question should then follow? Why are some still finding it HARD to UNDERSTAND? Yet, we all claim to be taught by the Spirit. Is the Spirit confusing us all? So, we wonder why Atheists laugh at us sometimes. Because we "sound" like bunch of confused people.

The simple answer is, many who still find these things HARD to UNDERSTAND are stucked in religion and Judaism, mixing Christianity with religious sentiments, traditions of men and Judaism. I, Godwin, a.k.a Goshen360 have broken away from those things since I understood the message of the cross and Christ's finished works wrapped in the Gospel of Grace.

God bless you brother. I will talk to you later over the phone.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Gombs(m): 1:56pm On Jan 05, 2014
Thank you drummaboy for ur apt reply, more so for it being definite and precise, Bidam over to you..

Drummaboy, we bring up past issues about a person because, one's integrity matters. This is religion section, one wrong post from you can have ripple effects. Goshen for example, he's falsely accused I and joe, and now bidam... and cannot apologise for it, neither could he put up a defence like u did. How would you want us to take him serious with questionable integrity and character. If Alwaystrue asked goshen abt his stance on fornication tht happened on another thread, twas because she find his response questionable, and she could hence find communication/fellowship with him difficult. Won't it then be sensible to confront him with those issues?

Meanwhile, u haven't said anything with regards @joagbaje's post...I await
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Nobody: 2:12pm On Jan 05, 2014
Gombs:

At the first bold, I can't believe anybody who calls himself a Christian could say that...drummerboy, did u really say that? Even when bible said we should be good to everyone ESPECIALLY those of the household Of faith?

@bidam, i knew atheists and anti tithers had a romance few months back, they were both attacking on tithers, but I can't believe it degenerated to this extent.

At second bold, pls bidam if u could fetc me those links, I'd be very glad. Drummerboy, what sayeth thou on th above? Was it true u actually said that?
Actually i am on phone and not able to provide the links..Even right now i am still in church..Sorry that i did not provide the link earlier cos am handicapped.Drumma as a fraudster,cheat and a liar must have edited his post since nobody quoted him, when he made those ridiculous statements.You can see he denied the allegations.Well let God be the judge of this matter.

I will check out the tithe threads he opened and made those funny remarks as soon as i get on my lappy..am busy at the moment.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Gombs(m): 2:31pm On Jan 05, 2014
Bidam: Actually i am on phone and not able to provide the links..Even right now i am still in church..Sorry that i did not provide the link earlier cos am handicapped.Drumma as a fraudster,cheat and a liar must have edited his post since nobody quoted him, when he made those ridiculous statements.You can see he denied the allegations.Well let God be the judge of this matter.

I will check out the tithe threads he opened and made those funny remarks as soon as i get on my lappy..am busy at the moment.

Ok.... o....but from the romantic gesture of atheists and anti tithers, and for image 123 to point it out, I tire sef, wish the links were present, if he edited it, we'd still know....I just hope image123 wud breeze in and say what triggered his post
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Alwaystrue(f): 3:14pm On Jan 05, 2014
Happy sunday folks.

cheesy@Drummaboy, please confirm who raised the fornication issue FIRST on this thread as it seems you think I just come up with issues from nowhere. Was my response to Goshen on the fornication out of the blue or did I quote what he said on this same thread? Please confirm again that your allegation against me is true that I brought up the fornication issue here or Goshen did.
By the way coming to this forum to seek answers on tithe show how easy it is to be misled. You once said someone told you to tithe and you obviouosy did not know why you were doing it that is why it was so easy for you to fall for all sorts that people say about it. Do not let my posts give you sleepless nights please as I see you can't seem to leave my monniker alone.
As I always advice you be at peace with your decision not to tithe and calling pastors that receive tithes theives. God who gave His word confirms the truth always.


@Goshen, you had enough oportunity to explain yourself on that thread. You affirmed that two consenting unmarried adults who hav sex are not commiting fornication, didn't you? I don't have to pull up the thread.
So suddenly where Paul said if a man is behaving 'unseemingly' towards his virgin or bethrothed and he will give in to his passion, they should marry, all you can bring out is what difference is between wife and virgin? Is that the issue? If a man may give in to his passion, what does that mean to you? You are trying so hard to justify the unjustifiable. Your belief is now new age, 'nothing wrong in sleeping with who you are not married to, afterall I have married u in my heart' ideologies right? I have long known how you beat around the bush and try to dilute the truth but thank God for the Truth. It will always endure.


So while your faithful disciple who feels you cannot do any wrong is fighting for you I wish you well. All the questions I asked you end with a question mark, you can take all your time to go over my posts to you and respond. Take your time.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Nobody: 3:33pm On Jan 05, 2014
Gombs:

Ok.... o....but from the romantic gesture of atheists and anti tithers, and for image 123 to point it out, I tire sef, wish the links were present, if he edited it, we'd still know....I just hope image123 wud breeze in and say what triggered his post
Yeah i just don't start lying against someone:.What do i stand to gain sef? Thank God Image confirmed it.At the mouth of Two or three witnesses a word is established. You can check the 18 or last page the first tithe thread he opened inviting mark, candour and co to see whether he edited his post when he invited Rude to a new thread in order to convert him
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by DrummaBoy(m): 4:03pm On Jan 05, 2014
Bidam: Yeah i just don't start lying against someone:.What do i stand to gain sef? Thank God Image confirmed it.At the mouth of Two or three witnesses a word is established. You can check the 18 or last page the first tithe thread he opened inviting mark, candour and co to see whether he edited his post when he invited Rude to a new thread in order to convert him

When you get a laptop, you can bring up the post where you said I said "atheist are better and closer to God than tithers". We can wait...

When I read that Bidam post this afternoon after returning from church, I had to read that thread all over again and I am sure I didn't say anything like that. How could I? I tithed fro 15 years was I worse than an atheist? My wife still tithes or at least still gave a tenth of her salary until November last year when she began to give what I have been saying some attention, was she worse than an atheist? I got to a church where you must tithe to be a member of the church are they all worse than atheist?

I could explain further what I meant by the statements I made but I wait for Bidam to quote me; don't worry, I am a man of utmost integrity, I have not edited those posts. The way I wrote them is the way I have left them.

@Gombs

I will attend to Jo' post soon enough.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Goshen360(m): 4:13pm On Jan 05, 2014
Drummaboy, please send me your contact by email ASAP.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Goshen360(m): 4:32pm On Jan 05, 2014
Alwaystrue:

@Goshen, you had enough oportunity to explain yourself on that thread. You affirmed that two consenting unmarried adults who hav sex are not commiting fornication, didn't you? I don't have to pull up the thread.
So suddenly where Paul said if a man is behaving 'unseemingly' towards his virgin or bethrothed and he will give in to his passion, they should marry, all you can bring out is what difference is between wife and virgin? Is that the issue? If a man may give in to his passion, what does that mean to you? You are trying so hard to justify the unjustifiable. Your belief is now new age, 'nothing wrong in sleeping with who you are not married to, afterall I have married u in my heart' ideologies right? I have long known how you beat around the bush and try to dilute the truth but thank God for the Truth. It will always endure.


So while your faithful disciple who feels you cannot do any wrong is fighting for you I wish you well. All the questions I asked you end with a question mark, you can take all your time to go over my posts to you and respond. Take your time.

I had explained myself so much on that thread then and we further opened another thread, making it about two threads on that subject. The truth is, you're stucked in what you have known before now and don't wish to give another study to what I bring up to you and it's not compulsory, you don't have to accept what I'm saying.

Now, for the last time, I want you to put things together BY YOUR SELF, the difference Paul said concerning a virgin and a wife AND use the same context to answer the questions or explain what you asking me. Since what I have been saying doesn't make any difference to you, why should I keep going explaining same thing to you while you stucked in your beliefs. That's the only thing that can change how you interpret the verse that seems confusing you.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by DrummaBoy(m): 4:33pm On Jan 05, 2014
nlMediator:

Thanks for your straighforward answer. This is what you wrote in the post I responded to that prompted my question: "The Christian man follows a new law: the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the law to love God and men." In your answer, you did not say you were guided by love to know that X's act is sinful but you said you were guided by the NT. Had you said that, I would not have posed the question - and if you recall I said your point about geting rules from the NT was solid. The problem is that many of you that talk about grace always claim that your guide is love, but as your answer shows, it's not just love or conscience; it's also rules. But we hardly ever hear that part from the mouth of grace teachers.

I respond to issues anywhere as I see the need. When I interact with people on this forum, I see people either in bondage to the law of Moses or people who cannot distinguish btw grace and law. So When I post anywhere here it is to make those issue clear to them. That was the whole purpose of the Grace Convention, to distinguish grace and law; and that was why non of them, law advocates, could be asked to teach, not because they are not sound, but because they were the audience. Unfortunately it seem they still did not get the message.

On other fora I could be found teaching the rules and regulation of the NT. Take for example the discussion thread on tithing, we took some two weeks to draft out the rules for that thread. By the time the thread started it took sometimes for the participants to get used to the rules, but now I hardly talk on that thread bc everyone is following the rules. So anywhere a system will work, there must be rules and regulation. My own emphasis here however is that the rules of the OT are different from the rules of the NT. The old Testament had Moses' laws. The NT has the law of spirit and life, taken from the law to love. Take for example some section of Ephesians 4:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Every verse up there is a rule and a regulation for the Christian life. Where did Paul get them from? From Moses? Most definitely not. He got them from the law of spirit and life in Christ Jesus. It is those laws God put in the Christian's heart when he's saved as he teaches him to follow God in holiness. All the practical part of the NT follow this same concept. That is why you will not find anywhere under these sort of injunction "thou shall tithe" or "thou shall circumcize", as it should have been if indeed the law of Moses were the foundation for the NT church. The NT does not offer all the rules that the Christian must follow; the rest will come to us through godly men's teachings and their lifestyles and as we all walk and work with God. So we cannot do without rules; but that as it may Christianity is not Judaism and the law of Moses is not a "foundation" for Christians.

nlMediator:
You said where it is not clear from the NT what a believer should do, he should follow his conscience. Where 2 believers (husband and wife) get 2 different messages from the conscience about the rightness or wrongness of a proposed act, but the OT is clear about that, your argument is that one or both of them should go ahead and take a decision or action that is contrary to the OT. Why, when it's obvious that at least one of them would be wrong?

I believe I have attended to this in the post before this but I believe if we are patient enough and study scriptures long enough and are honest about our motives, we would know God's mind on any issue. So if the husband and wife have conflicting views about a thing, such things are bound to happen; let them discuss the matter and pray, while studying scripture and they will come to God's mind on the matter. It applies to every other thing including ministry but the reason why we have a plethora of churches is probably bc people are not broken enough to listen to how God wants his church to be run. So every one runs off doing his own thing with his own ideas.

nlMediator:
Sure, christianity is a different religion from Judaism. But Judaism still holds a special place in Christianity. In Rom. 10, especially verses 16-17, Paul shows a clear link between Christianity and Judaism. The root is the same. Christians and Jews are branches of the same vine. No other religion is accorded this privilege. So to treat Judaism as something completely unacceptable for all purposes is not scriptural.

I stand by what I said. It is easy to understand Romans 10 as the tree and root here is definitely Jehovah God. He instituted Judaism and started Christianity. My post on dispensation addresses this as God has instituted changes through dispensations into history for his own purpose. I still encourage you read that post. Romans 10 also speaks of a coming dispensation, the Millenium, when God will eventually save Israel and make Jesus their Lord and King. But until then, God's dealings in this dispensation is with the church, in the Church Age dispensation.

nlMediator:
Finally, you wrote: "Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there." I don't see the difference. They are both collections and systems of rules. And who told you that Nigeria's laws are subdivided? Who subdivided them - the Legislature that made the laws?

I stand by what I said until I am proven otherwise. Moses' laws are not divided. The Nigerian laws are.

1 Like

Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Goshen360(m): 4:43pm On Jan 05, 2014
The simple analogy is, JOAGBAJE is wrong to say WITH OUT THE LAW, THERE IS FOUNDATION FOR RIGHT AND WRONG. Scripture proves him wrong because wrong and right are happening BEFORE the law.

People killed before the law and God said it wasn't right. People committed homosex.uals before the law, God said it was wrong. Why then should someone say the law is what gives foundation for right and wrong? The same taught on a thread that THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED

People of the law wants to hide behind the law of moses to still take advantage of Christians while they want to hang unto some and discard some.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Goshen360(m): 4:43pm On Jan 05, 2014
Goshen360: Drummaboy, please send me your contact by email ASAP.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Joshthefirst(m): 4:53pm On Jan 05, 2014
Goshen360: The simple analogy is, JOAGBAJE is wrong to say WITH OUT THE LAW, THERE IS FOUNDATION FOR RIGHT AND WRONG. Scripture proves him wrong because wrong and right are happening BEFORE the law.

People killed before the law and God said it wasn't right. People committed homosex.uals before the law, God said it was wrong. Why then should someone say the law is what gives foundation for right and wrong? The same taught on a thread that THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED

People of the law wants to hide behind the law of moses to still take advantage of Christians while they want to hang unto some and discard some.
Sir, I believe there is the law written in stone, and there is its copy written in Men's consciousness, the absolute law of God.
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Alwaystrue(f): 5:01pm On Jan 05, 2014
Joagbaje:
The Holy Spirit doesn't mislead. The issue is how much yieldedness does a christian have . Secondly the Holy Spirit can minister to you according to your level of knowledge . If a man doesn't study scriptures there will be limitation to the ministry of the hy spirit . Conscience can be hardened. Also without foundational knowledge of Gods principles revealed in the law. A man will live in error without knowing.

Certain principle some christian work with in business are contrary to God. When I show some people scriptures on this the get amazed such things are in the bible . The Old Testament contain foundational principles. You must know them .

The Holy Spirit won't speak to you in the area you neglect truth. How come the Holy Spirit didn't tell david that the arch was to be carried by men. Until somebody died before david found out. It is put personal responsibility to know scriptural principle. He can remind us based on scriptures we've known that is the need to study.

Of a truth, studying to shew ourselves approved of God cannot be underemphasized. It is the blueprint.
God said 'My people' perish for lack of knowledge. God was saying His people perish not some heathen. We have been given all that pertains to life and godliness and as such we need to understand by His word (books) how to go about living the abundantly life God has given us. Paul says we needs to press on to lay hold of what Christ has won us for Himself. The onus is on us to press in.

Genesis 26:5 says that Abraham obeyed God's voice, and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws...even before it was WRITTEN down. There is always the law in our spirit that let's us know when we are doing right or wrong so much that we don't have the inner peace on the Spirit gives if we keep going against His will and when we search the scriptures we find it is actually written. There are so many things we see newly in the word of God that speaks life, light to our way and is a lamp to our feet. It is just amazing.

1 Like

Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Gombs(m): 5:04pm On Jan 05, 2014
DrummaBoy:

When you get a laptop, you can bring up the post where you said I said "atheist are better and closer to God than tithers". We can wait...

When I read that Bidam post this afternoon after returning from church, I had to read that thread all over again and I am sure I didn't say anything like that. How could I? I tithed fro 15 years was I worse than an atheist? My wife still tithes or at least still gave a tenth of her salary until November last year when she began to give what I have been saying some attention, was she worse than an atheist? I got to a church where you must tithe to be a member of the church are they all worse than atheist?

I could explain further what I meant by the statements I made but I wait for Bidam to quote me; don't worry, I am a man of utmost integrity, I have not edited those posts. The way I wrote them is the way I have left them.

@Gombs

I will attend to Jo' post soon enough.

Alright bro!
Re: Without The Law There's No Foundation Of Rightness Or Wrong by Gombs(m): 5:05pm On Jan 05, 2014
Bidam: Yeah i just don't start lying against someone:.What do i stand to gain sef? Thank God Image confirmed it.At the mouth of Two or three witnesses a word is established. You can check the 18 or last page the first tithe thread he opened inviting mark, candour and co to see whether he edited his post when he invited Rude to a new thread in order to convert him

I'd check

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