DrummaBoy: @Gombs
Sorry my friend you have not provided one scripture that shows that the laws given through Moses can be subdivided into Ceremonial, Moral, Civil, Ethical or Scribal. Now, it is really not your fault that you can't find such a scripture. The fact is that there is no such scripture in the whole of the bible. I understand the position of nlmediator who says that though such a scripture does not exist, we could subdivide the laws Ceremonial, Civil and Moral, for our own learning and understanding. I believe such theological position was taken in the same way the word "trinity" was coined to understand the three person in the God-head. But the problem with his distinction and yours is that while he subdivides his own to three, you subdivide yours to five! Adding ethical and scribal. Does it mean that we are all at liberty to divide Moses laws the way we like and take up the parts we want to keep in our dispensation while discarding the rest? Does it not further prove that the whole process of sub-division is the "wisdom of men" and has little or nothing to do with God? If a theological term like trinity is coined to understand God better, what does subdividing Moses laws achieve? Is it not better to leave it the way it is and approach it the way the NT commands us to?
Now to help me comprehend this subdivision more you refer me to Matthew 23:23 and showed that Judgement, Mercy and Faith will come under the division of Ethical and Moral laws. But that position leaves behind a lot of questions. One of them is that do we now subdivide the laws of Moses to Judgement, Mercy, Faith and Tithes (as tithes must be included in the subdivision even though it is not weighty)? In that sense what happens to other divisions of the law that include ceremonial, civil and scribal? If Jesus was really subdividing the laws, do you not think he would have mentioned those too even though they may have be done away with in our dispensations? The truth about Matthew 23:23 is that it was not about subdividing the laws of Moses as you would have us believe. Jesus was simply helping us to comprehend the weighty matters of Moses law and the light ones. Laws that do not apply to Christians today by the way.
So you see that you have not shown any scripture that subdivides the law of Moses.
When the NT talks about Moses laws, it never sees it in a three or five sub division; it sees it as a whole and it is all the whole that is refered to as a ministry of death (2 Corinthian 3); it is all the whole that has been abolished in the cross of Jesus (Hebrew 8:13).
I cannot agree with the OP that the law of Moses is a "foundation" for us today. What that statement implies is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. That is error raised to the power of error and the result is unimaginable error. This is the reason why we have all the wrong teachings that pervade the church today.
The problem we have with tithing stems from the wrong foundation. If you see Christianity as a continuation or a modified form of Judaism, then you will modify some of the practices in Judaism and impose on Christians today. What we however, have noticed about the tithe is that in regards to it, this modification has the hand of what I would call the conspiracy of the clergy in it. These men of God have browsed through all the 613 laws of Moses and singled out some, especially the tithe (and lets not forget first fruit too this January) that will benefit their ministry and called it tithe. They take offence that we have shown them that it is not God's holy tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) and they make their followers persecute us for taking such stance (I will not bore you with what anti-tithers go through in their local churches here).
Christianity is not Judaism.
Law is law in the NT and has no subdivision.
Paul the apostle was an inspired author of scriptures and helped us to see how the law came to an end.
The Christian man follows a new law: the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the law to love God and men.
There are dispensations in God's dealing with men and it will be good we learn that doctrine ASAP.
Cheers!

DrummaBoy: @nlmediator
X's act is a sin.
How did I come to that conclusion? Because Moses' laws or the Moral aspect of Moses' law says we should not fornicate? No. Because the New Testament says so.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. - 1 Corinthians 6 and some other NT scriptures like it.
Someone will say Paul found his inspiration from the Old Testament. I would say yes and no. The faith that justifies the Christian saints today has the law and the prophets testifying about them (Romans 3:21). So, yes, the law gave the inspiration for the coming of the Christian faith but I used the word "inspiration" rather than "foundation" because Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism. They are different.
The Christian faith was sealed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ but when our Lord had gone; he sent the Holy Spirit who will eventually instruct the Apostles on how the Church and Christians life will work. This is what we have documented in the NT. First the Church or what we like to call the Church Age Dispensation has its life and theology built on the Apostles and Prophets - That is Peter, James, Paul, etc.
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. - Ephesians 3
Permit me to say that these apostles and prophets introduced a brand new "religion" called Christianity. Who primary rule of life was walking in love; and with whom we had the Holy Spirit to instruct on what this love consist of. Now the OP has gone on and on about some people making conscience and other things their standard of rule which is bound to fail. True. But the resort to Moses to find "foundation" for Christianity is equally wrong. So what do we do. The New Testament, writtten by inspired Apostles and Prophets have all the rules and regulation the Christian man needs for life and godliness.
But indeed there arises some cases where it may not be distinctively clear what the Christian should do. Where does he get his standard of law from. From Moses? Capital NO. From NT? It might not be there. From where then? From the Spirit within him. God will tell him what to do.
Paul's grouse with the Judaizer of his time was that they wanted to make Christianity a continuation of Judaism. Paul made it clear to them that Christianty was starting off by itself; even though a lot had been prophesied about it in the OT. The OT may provide inspiration for Christianity but it is certainly not the foundation for it.
If you read my text well, you will notice that the only reason I criticize the subdivision is the tendency to divide it to the point of discarding some and keeping some. The NT discards the whole thing! Now for those who say we should cut off the OT from our bibles and read only new. I don't do that. In fact I am reading the OT in my personal study right now. It provides INSPIRATION for the NT and that is why the apostles encouraged that we read it.
On the matter of law, holiness and righteousness. It is incumbent on Christian ministers to not only teach the bible correctly but to live it correctly in holiness. It will inform the manner in which they teach the word, encouraging the saints on the path of godliness without the need for resorting to Moses. Indeed, there are sins coming out today that even Moses never envisioned, just like the OP said. How do we handle such? The answer lies with the Spirit. But when we have godly ministers they can point us on the right path and we will walk it without getting hurt or without keeping Moses. This is what Ephesian 4-6; colosians 3; etc, consists of.
The NT does not subdivide Moses' laws. And no one has yet provided a scripture for such subdivision. It is ok if we subdivide it to comprehend it but to make a standard for the law we keep or not keep is wrong. Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there.

Joagbaje: ^^
How does a believer know right and wrong without knowledge of right and wrong.
Is incest a sin? If yes says who?

ajayikayod:

Like i pointed out above, he knows dt whic is perfect by d Spirit not by d Law. Mind u, d knowledge of right and wrong is not found only in d Law (Moses), mayb dts whr d mix up is. D Spirit acknowledges, approves, corrects, instructs and teaches not by d Law of Sin and Death but of Life.

Goshen360:

Do you want me dig up your law teachings?

Goshen360: @ Drummaboy,

From your last post to nlMediator, I will later show our brethren from scriptures that holiness is not what a Christian need TO DO as with WORKS OF THE LAW, holiness is what a Christian LIVE OUT AS WITH FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

Everything a Christian needs as you rightly said, is contained in the Gospel of the new covenant, there's no biblical Apostolic teachings to return to the law, when we have come to Christ.

Gombs: @Joagbaje, uv closed the thread...what more shd/could I say?

If folks still don't get the abov explanation, then, well....we'd keep praying for such fellow!

Goshen, apologise, cos its clear we are gonna ignore ur posts on this thread, till u openly admit u wronged us or apologise.


@drummaboy, pls I'd like to know what you think of what @joagbaje wrote above. Thank you

Bidam: Yeah wonderful submissoin by Oga Jo...as for drumma you don't need to bother about him.. he was the one that made a ridiculous statement in a thread about an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe . I had lost every iota of respect i had for him when he made that statement.

He even went ahead to ridicule himself the more by opening a thread for the said atheist thinking he could convert him Because of him the atheist blasphemed the name of God..You need to check out that thread.It was a show of shame really

Bidam: Yeah wonderful submissoin by Oga Jo...as for drumma you don't need to bother about him..he was the one that made a ridiculous statement in a thread about an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe. I had lost every iota of respect i had for him when he made that statement.

He even went ahead to ridicule himself the more by opening a thread for the said atheist thinking he could convert him.Because of him the atheist blasphemed the name of God..You need to check out that thread.It was a show of shame really.

Image123:

There are fellows on this forum who care less for many of Jesus' words and commandments, who would not be caught or found preaching against sin, or speaking out against sin, folks who would never say anything for the cause of Christ in the face of atheists and other glaring unbelievers, but are so vehement when the T word is mentioned. Its sometimes so bad that i've read someone say that an atheist is closer to God and better than a tither. But thank God for God.

Gombs:

At the first bold, I can't believe anybody who calls himself a Christian could say that...drummerboy, did u really say that? Even when bible said we should be good to everyone ESPECIALLY those of the household Of faith?

@bidam, i knew atheists and anti tithers had a romance few months back, they were both attacking on tithers, but I can't believe it degenerated to this extent.

At second bold, pls bidam if u could fetc me those links, I'd be very glad. Drummerboy, what sayeth thou on th above? Was it true u actually said that?

Bidam: Actually i am on phone and not able to provide the links..Even right now i am still in church..Sorry that i did not provide the link earlier cos am handicapped.Drumma as a fraudster,cheat and a liar must have edited his post since nobody quoted him, when he made those ridiculous statements.You can see he denied the allegations.Well let God be the judge of this matter.

I will check out the tithe threads he opened and made those funny remarks as soon as i get on my lappy..am busy at the moment.

Gombs:

Ok.... o....but from the romantic gesture of atheists and anti tithers, and for image 123 to point it out, I tire sef, wish the links were present, if he edited it, we'd still know....I just hope image123 wud breeze in and say what triggered his post

Bidam: Yeah i just don't start lying against someone:.What do i stand to gain sef? Thank God Image confirmed it.At the mouth of Two or three witnesses a word is established. You can check the 18 or last page the first tithe thread he opened inviting mark, candour and co to see whether he edited his post when he invited Rude to a new thread in order to convert him

Alwaystrue:

@Goshen, you had enough oportunity to explain yourself on that thread. You affirmed that two consenting unmarried adults who hav sex are not commiting fornication, didn't you? I don't have to pull up the thread.
So suddenly where Paul said if a man is behaving 'unseemingly' towards his virgin or bethrothed and he will give in to his passion, they should marry, all you can bring out is what difference is between wife and virgin? Is that the issue? If a man may give in to his passion, what does that mean to you? You are trying so hard to justify the unjustifiable. Your belief is now new age, 'nothing wrong in sleeping with who you are not married to, afterall I have married u in my heart' ideologies right? I have long known how you beat around the bush and try to dilute the truth but thank God for the Truth. It will always endure.


So while your faithful disciple who feels you cannot do any wrong is fighting for you I wish you well. All the questions I asked you end with a question mark, you can take all your time to go over my posts to you and respond. Take your time.

nlMediator:

Thanks for your straighforward answer. This is what you wrote in the post I responded to that prompted my question: "The Christian man follows a new law: the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the law to love God and men." In your answer, you did not say you were guided by love to know that X's act is sinful but you said you were guided by the NT. Had you said that, I would not have posed the question - and if you recall I said your point about geting rules from the NT was solid. The problem is that many of you that talk about grace always claim that your guide is love, but as your answer shows, it's not just love or conscience; it's also rules. But we hardly ever hear that part from the mouth of grace teachers.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

nlMediator:
You said where it is not clear from the NT what a believer should do, he should follow his conscience. Where 2 believers (husband and wife) get 2 different messages from the conscience about the rightness or wrongness of a proposed act, but the OT is clear about that, your argument is that one or both of them should go ahead and take a decision or action that is contrary to the OT. Why, when it's obvious that at least one of them would be wrong?

nlMediator:
Sure, christianity is a different religion from Judaism. But Judaism still holds a special place in Christianity. In Rom. 10, especially verses 16-17, Paul shows a clear link between Christianity and Judaism. The root is the same. Christians and Jews are branches of the same vine. No other religion is accorded this privilege. So to treat Judaism as something completely unacceptable for all purposes is not scriptural.

nlMediator:
Finally, you wrote: "Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there." I don't see the difference. They are both collections and systems of rules. And who told you that Nigeria's laws are subdivided? Who subdivided them - the Legislature that made the laws?

Goshen360: Drummaboy, please send me your contact by email ASAP.

Goshen360: The simple analogy is, JOAGBAJE is wrong to say WITH OUT THE LAW, THERE IS FOUNDATION FOR RIGHT AND WRONG. Scripture proves him wrong because wrong and right are happening BEFORE the law.

People killed before the law and God said it wasn't right. People committed homosex.uals before the law, God said it was wrong. Why then should someone say the law is what gives foundation for right and wrong? The same taught on a thread that THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED

People of the law wants to hide behind the law of moses to still take advantage of Christians while they want to hang unto some and discard some.

Joagbaje:
The Holy Spirit doesn't mislead. The issue is how much yieldedness does a christian have . Secondly the Holy Spirit can minister to you according to your level of knowledge . If a man doesn't study scriptures there will be limitation to the ministry of the hy spirit . Conscience can be hardened. Also without foundational knowledge of Gods principles revealed in the law. A man will live in error without knowing.

Certain principle some christian work with in business are contrary to God. When I show some people scriptures on this the get amazed such things are in the bible . The Old Testament contain foundational principles. You must know them .

The Holy Spirit won't speak to you in the area you neglect truth. How come the Holy Spirit didn't tell david that the arch was to be carried by men. Until somebody died before david found out. It is put personal responsibility to know scriptural principle. He can remind us based on scriptures we've known that is the need to study.

DrummaBoy:

When you get a laptop, you can bring up the post where you said I said "atheist are better and closer to God than tithers". We can wait...

When I read that Bidam post this afternoon after returning from church, I had to read that thread all over again and I am sure I didn't say anything like that. How could I? I tithed fro 15 years was I worse than an atheist? My wife still tithes or at least still gave a tenth of her salary until November last year when she began to give what I have been saying some attention, was she worse than an atheist? I got to a church where you must tithe to be a member of the church are they all worse than atheist?

I could explain further what I meant by the statements I made but I wait for Bidam to quote me; don't worry, I am a man of utmost integrity, I have not edited those posts. The way I wrote them is the way I have left them.

@Gombs

I will attend to Jo' post soon enough.

Bidam: Yeah i just don't start lying against someone:.What do i stand to gain sef? Thank God Image confirmed it.At the mouth of Two or three witnesses a word is established. You can check the 18 or last page the first tithe thread he opened inviting mark, candour and co to see whether he edited his post when he invited Rude to a new thread in order to convert him