InesQor:

I believe the Christian position is that Jesus BELIEVED and trusted that his Father would not abandon him in the Grave. I.e. there was THAT chance of being abandoned, since God disliked sin so much, so if Jesus embodied sin at that time, the Father could have left him there. This way I think it was a genuine concern, and as much as Jesus said he'd rise on the third day, he was also speaking by faith. And that's why the night before, he had a panic attack and suffered hematidrosis (sweating blood). He was under that much pressure, and was just as afraid as any man - of death. Guy was actually begging God to reconsider the plan.

Being as much God as the Father was, Jesus had legitimate concerns cos he knew just how much God detested anything that had to do with sin. These concerns make Jesus sacrifice as legitimate as any other.

What he had was a promise, just like that of a boy whose father says, "jump from the ship into the boat, I'll catch you". The son trusts the father but he knows the father dislikes water and so the father does not swim. Thus if he should miss, he's done for. That's as legitimate a concern as any other.

One of the best answers I've read here. How body?

Do you consider Jesus and God to be one? What's your understanding of the Trinity?

macof:

Many people have this philosophy that "Everything happens for a reason with a cause"
I subscribe to that, for very good reasons too

If I am to survive a car accident I would count myself lucky, but what controls this "luck"

Watever it is I would give thanks o


But then when has life given the impression that the creator is all kind and loving??
Why do people still expect an all loving, giving good things God?
life is much more complicated

Tuale Omo Iya.

You said it all.

What pastor failed to perceive is the CAUSE as the God been thanked.

InesQor:

Being as much God as the Father was, Jesus had legitimate concerns cos he knew just how much God detested anything that had to do with sin. These concerns make Jesus sacrifice as legitimate as any other.

If he embodied just as much godliness as the father, then explain how was he unsure of being resurrected? Human fathers and their sons don't read the minds of one another, if they did, then the son in your analogy wouldn't have any doubt about his father's intentions.

plaetton: There is absolutely no reason for a god, no purpose for a god , and certainly no evidence for a god in the universe.

It never ever makes sense.

When somebody comes to preach to me about god, to be polite I just keep asking the person " Why".
Like , why do I need prayers to god, why do I need to go to church, why do I need to believe in god, why do I need god, why do I need heaven. why do I need everlasting life, etc ?

They simply have none or just kindergarten reasons for these common sense questions.

I still cant understand why you guys cant think beyound Abrahamic God.

Chai.

aManFromMars:





One of the best answers I've read here. How body?

Do you consider Jesus and God to be one? What's your understand of the Trinity?

Lol I don't even half believe I can convince you with any number of words,but I'm glad you like it!

I am fine thanks bro. Hope body dey gbam as well?

My views on trinity are not exactly the Christian views, i think. I will try to explain my view. Christians believe Son, Father and Holy Ghost are God in "role / duty", but I think of it as "essence" or "make-up". I.e. Jesus spirit is entirely made of that God stuff, although his body was 100% human. That same God essence is what he left behind as the Holy Spirit for his believers to be infused in.

Thus, for roles they had entirely different roles: drawing up an enterprise parallel i'll say the father had a kind of project management role, Jesus was a field agent supervisor / direct reporting line, and the Holy Spirit was Human resources (helping you interface with management). Jesus did say there were plans he had no knowledge of that only the Father did, but there were also plans they had together.

My 2 cents.

Weah96:

If he embodied just as much godliness as the father, then explain how was he unsure of being resurrected? Human fathers and their sons don't read the minds of one another, if they did, then the son in your analogy wouldn't have any doubt about his father's intentions.

As per the human son and father, sometimes intentions are not enough you know. There are parents who had the best intentions and their children still died right there in their hands. What then? Had the children read the parents' minds would there have been any difference?

Fear is irrational after all.

He was as much God as the Father was, but they had different roles. And he was currently working undercover, if I may use that analogy. The best he could do was to trust his partner and hope it works out without him blowing something they'd planned since creation.

The.Big.Urban:

nonsense.....how can a God that can never die understand suffering? How can God suffer with us?

Death has no life to take from him
Time has no future to to run out from him

Your God is a philosophical monster. An abomination to human emotions.
A being that fears no death is death himself

i don't even know where you are coming from and where you are going to, you have manage to rant about nothing.

My God understands suffering not just relatively or according to his omniscience but also personally because 2000yrs ago he too human nature in the person Jesus, lived among men, grieve with them and was sad, was happy and exited, was angry...he felt the full spectrum of human emotion, he also went the spectrum of suffering, he was betrayed by his friends, denied by his disciples ridicled by his people. He went all the way, he experienced our suffering in his own person, he suffered with us.

That is what the christian message says.

FOLYKAZE:

Hey dude. . . .those hackers help loose from my trap on that 'catholism, Idolatory' thread. Whats up.

Regarding your post, I will like to simplify it with the fact that there is nothing like knowledge, suffering whatever. . . .it is all illusion.

actually i was still on nl as late as 12am on sunday marwing, i already saw where u were going before you began, i also had my own plan to dent your ideology. Besides i don't think u and makof agree completely in that topic, i had a sweet rebutal prepared for him. Unfortunately when i came back to paste my answers, nl was gone.
I hope to discuss those issues with you again, prolly not as a debate but as an exposition.



That said,

why do you mean by "its an illusion"?

aManFromMars:
There seems to be a general confusion about what defines a man among Christians.

In Genesis, we are told that God created man in his own likeness and image. Sin separated us from him and man died spiritually.

Is man the physical form or his 'spirit'?

What I find interesting about this particular doctrine is man was able to survive disconnected from God.


What/who exactly was Jesus? A God masked as a man? Or a man with divine abilities and claims to being God? How could he be God and man at the same time?

Can the 'creator' be contained by a mere physical form?

oh, i have seen the whole "what is a man arguement before.
This is what i believe, man isn't just a "soul", just a soul is a ghost, not man. Neither is he just a body, just a body is a corpse. Man is spirit+body!

I think you read the teaching of original sin wrong, sin destroys man's relationship with God. If i may speak like the xtian philosophers, man injure infinite goodness, he lost his ability to keep a divine-human relationship. That teaching doesn't say God stop loving man, or God stopped thinking about man. (if we define God as infine consciousness, then all in creation are just his thoughts, if he 'forgets' u then u cease to exist) this mean man was still preserved and conserved by God in hope for a better future for him. In hope for a renewed friendship.

texanomaly:

I'm curious as to why you think he could not experience suffering as a God?

he think God does not experience suffering as we do, he thinks God only sees suffering, he thinks God isn't really involved in suffering and so God cant feel suffering as we do.

aManFromMars:
There seems to be a general confusion about what defines a man among Christians.

In Genesis, we are told that God created man in his own likeness and image. Sin separated us from him and man died spiritually.

Is man the physical form or his 'spirit'?

What I find interesting about this particular doctrine is man was able to survive disconnected from God.


What/who exactly was Jesus? A God masked as a man? Or a man with divine abilities and claims to being God? How could he be God and man at the same time?

Can the 'creator' be contained by a mere physical form?

aManFromMars:

I'll post a question I posed to TomboGodson/joshTheFirst sometime back.

If Boko Haram asked you to sacrifice your life for the release of the Chibok girls, and you did so fully aware you'd come back to life after a day, would that still count as a sacrifice?

Would it be a greater sacrifice compared to one who who does so with no hope of resurrection?

InesQor answered these much more eloquently than I could possibly manage. It is the best response I have seen here too. Lovely.

Weah96:

You mean true believers like al Qaeda, cuz they're the only ones who not only embrace death, but go willingly. Ask TB Joshua if he's ready to meet the Lord in 30 minutes and see how many excuses he produces.

I’m not sure I know who that is.

InesQor:
Lol I don't even half believe I can convince you with any number of words,but I'm glad you like it!

I am fine thanks bro. Hope body dey gbam as well?

My views on trinity are not exactly the Christian views, i think. I will try to explain my view. Christians believe Son, Father and Holy Ghost are God in "role / duty", but I think of it as "essence" or "make-up". I.e. Jesus spirit is entirely made of that God stuff, although his body was 100% human. That same God essence is what he left behind as the Holy Spirit for his believers to be infused in.

Thus, for roles they had entirely different roles: drawing up an enterprise parallel i'll say the father had a kind of project management role, Jesus was a field agent supervisor / direct reporting line, and the Holy Spirit was Human resources (helping you interface with management). Jesus did say there were plans he had no knowledge of that only the Father did, but there were also plans they had together.

My 2 cents.

I have never understood the trinity and have never really believed the concept to be credible. I find your concept much more believable. The bolded is closer to my belief than any other I’ve encountered here.

Do you believe that there is a part of this “essence” or “make-up” in everyone and everything created by God?

The.Big.Urban:

He can not die. He is eternal. He doesnt fear death
Time cant run out from him. He controls time
How can he understand the fear that humans have when faced with death?
God is omnipotent....meaning that he can heal himself....just like how he healed sick people in the bible.
Pain is meaningless to God

actually many a xtian will use the exact same words above to describe themselves.

Death is not really there, we don't die we transit.

Times doesn't really run out, i've gat an eternity out there.

The trait we admire in God is posible unto us, yet suffering is still a human experience.
God took human nature and walked the human path, probably saw human fears, he did behold it.

InesQor:

I believe the Christian position is that Jesus BELIEVED and trusted that his Father would not abandon him in the Grave. I.e. there was THAT chance of being abandoned, since God disliked sin so much, so if Jesus embodied sin at that time, the Father could have left him there. This way I think it was a genuine concern, and as much as Jesus said he'd rise on the third day, he was also speaking by faith. And that's why the night before, he had a panic attack and suffered hematidrosis (sweating blood). He was under that much pressure, and was just as afraid as any man - of death. Guy was actually begging God to reconsider the plan.

Being as much God as the Father was, Jesus had legitimate concerns cos he knew just how much God detested anything that had to do with sin. These concerns make Jesus sacrifice as legitimate as any other.

What he had was a promise, just like that of a boy whose father says, "jump from the ship into the boat, I'll catch you". The son trusts the father but he knows the father dislikes water and so the father does not swim. Thus if he should miss, he's done for. That's as legitimate a concern as any other.

interesting explanation, though i disagree.

Ubenedictus:

i think the whole idea of the incarnation is that God did suffer not just for us but with us.

He knows our suffering becos he experienced it, our doubt, our failings, he came to be with us.

I think paul makes a point in hebrews, "though he was son, he learn obedience through suffering", that experience make him a capable high priest cos he knows our weakness, he can trully be our intercessor.

Kindly enlighten us sir, in what way did god suffer?
If you are reffering to Jesus as god, then it's both funny and false.

First, assuming , for the purpose of this argument, that Jesus was god incarnate, then the bible clearly shows that Jesus lived a previledged life compared to 98% of humanity at that time, and even today.

Jesus was neither born in slavery,poverty nor ill-health. He never suffered hunger, oppression or a dibilitating illness, as far as the bible tells us.

He had the previlege of an elite education, something that was the exclusive preserve of the top elite of his clan in his time.
For someone who supposedly died at age of 33, when exactly did he suffer like the majority of humankind?

Because he supposedly died on the cross?

Ha ha , big deal.
Give me a break!

Crucifixion was the favored method of execution by the Romans. During one particular rebellion, they reportedly crucified 50,000 rebels and insurgents in Palestine.

In fact, Jesus had it very very easy, because, normally the Romans would crucify rebels and insurgents, break their legs, then leave them for many days to die slowly and painfully. After a few days , dead or alive, they would them feed the bodies to dogs.

But according to the bible, Jesus reported died just a short while after the final nail, without the long suffering faced by other victims.

In addition, he had the unusual previlege of having his body removed for burial.
Isn't that a tad suspicious?
How would Jesus have resurrected if his bones had been broken and his body fed to hungry dogs?
I guess we would never know.

Now, to say that Jesus' supposed quick and wimpy death on the cross constitutes suffering for a god who supposedly came down for the purpose of suffering, is a very big laugh, and an insult to all millions who, according to your bible, suffered in previous eras, the unusually cruel deaths inflicted by a wrathful god,... the very same god.
Big laugh indeed.

InesQor:
Lol I don't even half believe I can convince you with any number of words,but I'm glad you like it!

I am fine thanks bro. Hope body dey gbam as well?

My views on trinity are not exactly the Christian views, i think. I will try to explain my view. Christians believe Son, Father and Holy Ghost are God in "role / duty", but I think of it as "essence" or "make-up". I.e. Jesus spirit is entirely made of that God stuff, although his body was 100% human. That same God essence is what he left behind as the Holy Spirit for his believers to be infused in.

Thus, for roles they had entirely different roles: drawing up an enterprise parallel i'll say the father had a kind of project management role, Jesus was a field agent supervisor / direct reporting line, and the Holy Spirit was Human resources (helping you interface with management). Jesus did say there were plans he had no knowledge of that only the Father did, but there were also plans they had together.

My 2 cents.

actually you just described the christian teaching on trinity, probably more exactly than most people.

Why are you people awake at this hour?

texanomaly:

I have never understood the trinity and have never really believed the concept to be credible. I find your concept much more believable. The bolded is closer to my belief than any other I’ve encountered here.

Do you believe that there is a part of this “essence” or “make-up” in everyone and everything created by God?

guess this is a quetion for inesQor

texanomaly: Why are you people awake at this hour?

Its an ungodly hour. By their stripes...

Weah96:

Its an ungodly hour. By their stripes...

Ubenedictus: guess this is a quetion for inesQor

I'm always interested in others' way of thinking. I'd like to hear your answer.

Weah96:

Its an ungodly hour. By their stripes...

I don't understand what you mean here.







Lol...it just clicked...

plaetton:

Kindly enlighten us sir, in what way did god suffer?
If you are reffering to Jesus as god, then it's both funny and false.

First, assuming , for the purpose of this argument, that Jesus was god incarnate, then the bible clearly shows that Jesus lived a previledged life compared to 98% of humanity at that time, and even today.

Jesus was neither born in slavery,poverty nor ill-health. He never suffered hunger, oppression or a dibilitating illness, as far as the bible tells us.

He had the previlege of an elite education, something that was the exclusive preserve of the top elite of his clan in his time.
For someone who supposedly died at age of 33, when exactly did he suffer like the majority of humankind?

while i'll say not all the circumstances of Jesus' life is written in ink, i'll have to correct the picture you painted above. In the time of Jesus the previlege class were, the kings, the scribes, the teacher, the lawyers, religious leaders and the leading craftmen. Neither the scriptures nor the xtian writtings of the era discribes Jesus among that class. In fact, joseph doesn't have a place in his own home town, he delivered Jesus among animal, he wasn't even a year yet before herod went on a mudering spree and joseph fled with the child, his early infancy was in a foreign land through the desert.
He doesn't even seem to have the elite education you ascribe to his as most parents made sure to teach their kids to read in hebrew. If he was that educated he wouldn't have earned the ridicle of the jewish leaders.

Because he supposedly died on the cross?

Ha ha , big deal.
Give me a break!

Crucifixion was the favored method of execution by the Romans. During one particular rebellion, they reportedly crucified 50,000 rebels and insurgents in Palestine.

In fact, Jesus had it very very easy, because, normally the Romans would crucify rebels and insurgents, break their legs, then leave them for many days to die slowly and painfully. After a few days , dead or alive, they would them feed the bodies to dogs.

But according to the bible, Jesus reported died just a short while after the final nail, without the long suffering faced by other victims.

In addition, he had the unusual previlege of having his body removed for burial.
Isn't that a tad suspicious?
How would Jesus have resurrected if his bones had been broken and his body fed to hungry dogs?
I guess we would never know.

Now, to say that Jesus' supposed quick and wimpy death on the cross constitutes suffering for a god who supposedly came down for the purpose of suffering, is a very big laugh, and an insult to all millions who, according to your bible, suffered in previous eras, the unusually cruel deaths inflicted by a wrathful god,... the very same god.
Big laugh indeed.

so your point is, he came, lived in a palace, ate good food, grew fat and went to a painless death without suffering?

Get serious dear.

plaetton: There is absolutely no reason for a god, no purpose for a god , and certainly no evidence for a god in the universe.

It never ever makes sense.

When somebody comes to preach to me about god, to be polite I just keep asking the person " Why".
Like , why do I need prayers to god, why do I need to go to church, why do I need to believe in god, why do I need god, why do I need heaven. why do I need everlasting life, etc ?

They simply have none or just kindergarten reasons for these common sense questions.

Why do you need a 5.5in smartphone, a 3.0ghz quadcore computer with 16gb RAM, a five bedroom house, a V8 Mercedes S Class vehicle?

texanomaly:
I don't understand what you mean here.







Lol...it just clicked...

it still hasn't clicked for me.

texanomaly:

I have never understood the trinity and have never really believed the concept to be credible. I find your concept much more believable. The bolded is closer to my belief than any other I’ve encountered here.

Do you believe that there is a part of this “essence” or “make-up” in everyone and everything created by God?

i think the divine essence is what makes God, God, and the human essence is what makes man man. If all things inherently posses the divine essence then all things will be God, gods and godesses.

Ubenedictus:
i think the divine essence is what makes God, God, and the human essence is what makes man man. If all things inherently posses the divine essence then all things will be God, gods and godesses.

Thanks for your opinion.

Ubenedictus: while i'll say not all the circumstances of Jesus' life is written in ink, i'll have to correct the picture you painted above. In the time of Jesus the previlege class were, the kings, the scribes, the teacher, the lawyers, religious leaders and the leading craftmen. Neither the scriptures nor the xtian writtings of the era discribes Jesus among that class.
Get serious dear.

The scriptures say that Joseph was a craftsman.
A deliberate mistranslation falsely put him as carpenter.
The bible never ever said so.
A craftsman is a high ranking skilled technician, and a member of the privileged class.
That is what Joseph was.
A carpenter, in those days would not have been able to educate his son.

Ubenedictus: In fact, joseph doesn't have a place in his own home town, he delivered Jesus among animal, he wasn't even a year yet before herod went on a mudering spree and joseph fled with the child, his early infancy was in a foreign land through the desert.
He doesn't even seem to have the elite education you ascribe to his as most parents made sure to teach their kids to read in hebrew. If he was that educated he wouldn't have earned the ridicle of the jewish leaders.

First, who told you that Joseph did not have a home of his won?
Again, this is where deliberate mistranslation for the purpose of obfuscation comes in. The words translated as a stable to do not mean such.
The early scribes obviously wanted to give Jesus a humble and poor background. But do not forget that Joseph fled his home that was why Jesus was born outside his home.

Secondly, to say that Jesus only recieved home schooling from his parents is another contradiction, as well as an insult to those who can reason.
Which of his parents did he receive home-schooling from, Joseph or Mary?
Infact, it can be argued that the main reason that Jesus was able to see the fallacies of his Hebrew faith and traditions was because he had the benefit of studying abroad, most likely Egypt and India, because his teachings bear strong resemblence to the teachings of Buddha.
Jesus could not have acquired any knowledge or experiences of life by being a village carpenter as most of you have wrongfully and unthinkingly believed.

Thirdly, a wife and son of lowly village carpenter could not have been honored guests at a society wedding such as the in Cana described in bible.

Fourthly, the annointing of Jesus feet with very expensive special oil by Mary Magdalene at Bethany was an enactment of a royal tradition reserved only for princes or heir to a royal throne, as Jesus clearly was.

And lastly, the Jewish elders mocked Jesus because Jesus spent a lot of time mocking them and their hypocrisy and ritualism.

Ubenedictus: actually i was still on nl as late as 12am on sunday marwing, i already saw where u were going before you began, i also had my own plan to dent your ideology. Besides i don't think u and makof agree completely in that topic, i had a sweet rebutal prepared for him. Unfortunately when i came back to paste my answers, nl was gone.
I hope to discuss those issues with you again, prolly not as a debate but as an exposition.



That said,

why do you mean by "its an illusion"?

No worries. . . .we will have the discussion all over on a separate thread. I believe there would be red light sometim in the future.




The brain creates all those feelings, believe and knowledge. It is all an illusion

Lord_Reed:

Why do you need a 5.5in smartphone, a 3.0ghz quadcore computer with 16gb RAM, a five bedroom house, a V8 Mercedes S Class vehicle?

I actually don't need those things. Humanity has survived for many many milenia without them.

However, we have been duped and conditioned to think that we need those things to live a meaningful life, in the same way that a large number of humanity have been duped right from antiquity to believe that there is an angry monster in the sky ready to throw you into a barbecue pit if you don't pray, go to church or mosque for senseless weekly rituals and worthless supplications,hate your neighbor, kill your neighbor, and of course, pay protection money to other smarter human parasites who call themselves priests and pastor.

plaetton:

I actually don't need those things. Humanity has survived for many many milenia without them.

However, we have been duped and conditioned to think that we need those things to live a meaningful life, in the same way that a large number of humanity have been duped right from antiquity to believe that there is an angry monster in the sky ready to throw you into a barbecue pit if you don't pray, go to church or mosque for senseless weekly rituals and worthless supplications,hate your neighbor, kill your neighbor, and of course, pay protection money to other smarter human parasites who call themselves priests and pastor.

And you find no joy or improvement in using those things?

"The spiritual is strongly anchored and sustained by illogic. It offers no explanations and requires none". - Amanfrommar. . .