plaetton:
If god exists, then god could not and should never have been a mystery

What a statement. So anything that exists could and should never have been a mystery.

You guys sha.

Enjoy.

DeepSight:

What a statement. So anything that exists could and should never have been a mystery.

You guys sha.

Enjoy.

No sire,
I am specifically referring to god, the all-present ,but clearly absent mystery.

why should god be a mystery?

plaetton:

No sire,
I am specifically referring to god, the all-present ,but clearly absent mystery.

Of course this is just the same way any mystery outside ones perception must not exist.

For an ant, the Planet Pluto cannot and should not exist.

mazaje: why should god be a mystery?

Perhaps because you are an ant and God is the Planet Pluto?

Or perhaps because you are a white blood cell and God is a human being?

Or perhaps because you are a grain of sand and God is the Earth?

Or perhaps because you are a drop of water and God is the Ocean?

You see, it makes no sense for minuscule beings such as ourselves to assert that things bigger than our perceptive capacity, by that reason alone, CANNOT exist.

DeepSight:

Of course this is just the same way any mystery outside ones perception must not exist.

For an ant, the Planet Pluto cannot and should not exist.

The very funny analogies you guys keep throwing around. . .Does your god want people to know about its existence?. . .Pluto does not need or want an ant to know about its existence. . .Does your god want humans to know about its existence?. . .

DeepSight:

Perhaps because you are an ant and God is the Planet Pluto?

Or perhaps because you are a white blood cell and God is a human being?

Or perhaps because you are a grain of sand and God is the Earth?

Or perhaps because you are a drop of water and God is the Ocean?

You see, it makes no sense for minuscule beings such as ourselves to assert that things bigger than our perceptive capacity, by that reason alone, CANNOT exist.

So this are your reasons why oneness of infinity should remain a mystery?. . .If god is a mystery then how did YOU get to know about it?. . .And what exactly do you mean by god?. . . .I am just tired of this your abstract god concept and idea that you alone seem to understand. . . .Just spell it out in very clear terms what is god?. . .What does it want and why did it create humans, assuming your god exist and it created humans. . .

DeepSight:

Of course this is just the same way any mystery outside ones perception must not exist.

For an ant, the Planet Pluto cannot and should not exist.

But if an ant has an inquiring mind, it could build itself a telescope, from the rudimentary to the sophisticated, to peep beyond it's environment see pluto, or at the least, to observe the gravitational perturbations that proves that a planetary body the size of Pluto exists on that exact region of space.

In the case of god, there is nothing remotely observable, except the conflicting and confusing perturbations of our minds, from whence god comes.

DeepSight:

Perhaps because you are an ant and God is the Planet Pluto?

Or perhaps because you are a white blood cell and God is a human being?

Or perhaps because you are a grain of sand and God is the Earth?

Or perhaps because you are a drop of water and God is the Ocean?

You see, it makes no sense for minuscule beings such as ourselves to assert that things bigger than our perceptive capacity, by that reason alone, CANNOT exist.

WTF

mazaje:

So this are your reasons why oneness of infinity should remain a mystery?. . .

I am not giving you a reason. I am saying to you that things transcending ones level will be mysteries to one. As such the mere fact that such are mysterious is not by itself an argument for their non existence. Even this very universe in which we live contains many such unprobed mysteries.

If god is a mystery then how did YOU get to know about it?. . .

All higher sentient beings cognise it. But since such an answer will be useless to willfully blind people such as you, let me add that we also have a level of an inquiring mind that easily discerns it. Not just by intuition or any high philosophy but even just by pedestrian commonsense.

And what exactly do you mean by god?. . . .I am just tired of this your abstract god concept and idea that you alone seem to understand. . . .Just spell it out in very clear terms what is god?. . .What does it want and why did it create humans, assuming your god exist and it created humans. . .

There is nothing overly abstract there. We are all mind and mind is over matter. It is what spawns even matter. Even you do it every day without knowing it. God is simply the original mind.

PastorAIO:

In other words the real advantage of being Just lies beyond anything evidential. You cannot really look at someone's present condition in this world and claim that it is due to their being just or justified.

Now this belief is common amongst christians that there is some kind of reward for believing that they will receive in this world. This is what makes a great deal of them to backslide when they eventually take a clear eyed look at the evidence.

No,i don't mean to say that the advantage of being just is beyond ANYTHING evidential.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Emphasis on the word "only". If in this life ONLY. So, there is actually hope in THIS LIFE. It pays to be just or good. To be just or good though is a world of definition and explaining on its own. In this world/life, anyone who lives in just principles is likely to enjoy the fruits. RIGHTEOUSNESS exalts a nation.
Pro 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

While the main aim and chief drive of righteousness is to please God, be His child, get to be with God in eternity etc, righteousness is multifaceted than that. For instance, HOSPITALITY is righteousness i.e under righteousness. Being hospitable doesn't mean you are a christian, but a christian should be hospitable, because that is righteousness, and a christian should be righteous. But we have muslins, atheists, hindus etc that are hospitable. Being POLITE or COURTEOUS is righteousness. GIVING is righteousness, HONESTY, INTEGRITY, DILIGENCE, HARDWORK are all characteristics of righteousness or being just. When an individual, or community, or nation operates by these, they reap the fruits of righteousness. Righteousness or being just is not just about praying or going to church. Praying, going to church, believing God, Bible reading are also righteous things, have their benefits too, and will aid one way or the other in getting ready for ETERNITY.
So, one's condition can be affected by righteousness or righteous works, both now and in eternity. The main drive you should remember.

Martian:

WTF

Of course such simple analogies will fly over the head of twerpish dolts such as you since it is of course possible for a white blood cell to evolve up to the point that they fly out of the human body in a spaceship and observe the whole human being.

DeepSight:
Of course such simple analogies will fly over the head of twerpish dolts such as you since it is of course possible for a white blood cell to evolve up to the point that they fly out of the human body in a spaceship and observe the whole human being.

That would be awesome!!!!

“The irrationality of a thing is not an argument against its existence, rather a condition of it. ~ Nietzsche

@ Plaetton. Thank you for your comment. I reply as follows:

In the absesnce of evidence to prove otherwise, I boldly assert that this, the bolded) is most likely the case.

There is evidence but some people either refuse to see or are incapable of seeing. Sometimes, one keeps silence in the knowledge that the skeptics will one day find the evidence in their own experience. Experience is and will always be the best teacher.

Dear MNwankwo,

As an admirer of your posts, it's hard to for me to disagree with much of what you have written here, except of course, that my universe runs freely on its own and does not include designer or creator god.

Thank for your kind words. You are entitled to your world view and I respect that. However, I am opposed to it for in my own experience, the universe and all that is in it is a creation of GOD. The universe is not eternal; it began at some point and will end at some point. Whatever has a beginning cannot run freely on its own. It is dependent and derives its existence from something else. In this case the universe and all creations are dependent on GOD. GOD is eternal, self-existent and absolutely independent of everything else. If the universe is not the creation of GOD as you assert, then the universe must be shown to be eternal and self existent. Until now, nobody have shown that the universe is eternal and I guarantee you (at the risk of sounding arrogant) that nobody will be able to demonstrate it for the universe is just a work of GOD or to be more correct a creation of some primordial servants of GOD.

First, I think it is always an error to assume and assert that the humans species are so special, that all of nature and creatures were created around our needs for our ultimate joy and happiness. We should be reminded that we share this particular nonedescript planet, this grain of sand in the cosmic desert with billions of other living species, each vying for survival, and I suppose, supreme joy and radiant happiness too.

What gives us supreme joy and radiant happiness may not , and has evidently not given the same to billions of our other terrestrial relatives and neighbors. Therefore, supreme joy and radiant happiness may be relative afterall. smiley

The whole creations of GOD resonate in jubilant joy and radiant happiness except in circumstances where man has interfered with the cosmic order by misapplication of his free will. In the observable and non-observable universes in the world of matter, man is special because he is the only creature that bears the animating core called spirit. Spirit is meant to transform what men call nature by making it a coarse replica of the spiritual kingdom of GOD. The human spirit is of a species higher than the animal souls. The plant itself has no soul but serves as a temporal cloak for some nature beings. Compared to all creations of GOD, the human spirit is a speck because there are several species in existence higher than the human spirit but compared to the world of matter including what men refer to as nature, the human spirit is the highest species and intrinsically possess the strongest influence and its volition impacts heavily in its surroundings. Several species work in tandem to help the human spirit to mature in the sense of the laws of GOD and in giving themselves to the development of the human spirit, they also in reciprocity evolve and mature to higher state. I can return to details about this if I sense it is necessary.

If you talk of spiritual evolution, then it should not be hard to talk of biological evolution of all living species and the social evolution of the human species too.
If you study these in dept, you will see no evidence of any God purposefully imbuing any creature or humans with any talents. You will only infer such if that is what you want to infer.
All creatures have features and talents that have evolved over the eons to enable them survive. In the evolutionary game of survival, one creature's supreme joy and radiant happiness would equally mean another creature's eternal nightmare, if not extinction.

If survival is the force that drives evolution, then only those abilities that enable a creature or population to survive will thrive. But that is not the case. There are examples where species have developed abilities that will actually eliminate them. Why would a stranger throw himself into a burning house to save a family he does not even know? How does adaptation (biological evolution) explain self-awareness, consciousnesses, conscience, love? Yes all creatures adapt but they follow a blueprint that is intrinsically written in their nature by the laws of GOD. I do not agree that evolution is driven by survival, rather evolution is driven by the laws of GOD. These laws create the environment and drive the selection of traits that will lead to the pre-ordained creature, and when the goal of the pre-ordained creature is reached, further speciation is eliminated. If evolution is driven by survival, then the terminal taxa in an evolutionary tree will be subject to further speciation and the emergence of new species as they continually adapt to the enviroment. The fact that terminal taxa like man, dogs, cats, crocodiles have ceased to evolve (macro-evolution and speciation) strongly argues against evolution being self-driven or being driven by survival.

You can't tell me that chickens are bred in cages, forced-fed, and then mass-slaughtered for our supreme enjoyment because of the misapplication of their freewill or karma.

Predator or Prey, It is simply a matter of a creature's position in the food chain.

Chicken has no free will. They have a soul that is not personal. In nourishing our bodies, they also develop and evolve. Therefore when they are slaughtered for the purpose of nourishing the human physical bodies, they are fulfilling the role for which they were created. Since they intrinsically have no free will, then no sin is committed in eating them for the nourishment of our bodies. If however they are slaughtered for entertainment or sport, then a crime is committed for God didn't create them for the entertainment of men. When I have more time, I will show you step by step evolution of the human body and how its dependent on animal protein was not in the original design by GOD. The human body was originally designed to be dependent on plant for nutrition and nourishment but yet again man made fundamental changes to his body that temporary necessitates dependent on animals for food and nourishment.

From what we know so far, there is no evidence that the universe does or ever needed a conscious and purposeful god.
If god exists, then god could not and should never have been a mystery.

Now, if on the other hand, like most honest deist would say, that god is a mystery, then we should treat god like all other mysteries of the universe-.. we should seek to solve it.

Can you provide the evidence to show that the universe was not created by a counscious and purposeful God?
The will of GOD or his ways is not a mystery. The language of God is indelibly written in our spirit and in all creations. The deist who says that GOD is a mystery is ignorant and lacks personal experience of the power of GOD. Rather, it is a mystery that many men go through life without a conscious recognition of God.

In trying to understand or solve the mystery of god, who or what system of inquiry is most competent to solve or at the least, lead the search for god?

Well, my answer is simple, and I reiterate as before that,
Only empirical science can search... and perhaps ultimately solve the mystery of god.

Science and its tools are bound to the physical limitation of time and space. Science is presently bound to the brain, the human intellect. The human intellect is designed to understand physical realities. It is incapable of understanding non-physical realities. God, eternity, infinity, will remain a mystery to the intellect. To know of GOD, one must use intuition, the faculty of the spirit. A future science will be born when the intellect can take direction and revelation from intuition. Through such a bridge, the science of the future will be permitted some glimpses into other worlds. Until then, science as it is presently practiced is incapable of finding and knowing of God. I have carried out scientific investigation at the top level for two decades and I am convinced that science will not find GOD or discover his ways. As always stay blessed.

InesQor:

It is called Tolerance. Maybe that's something that you're probably not familiar with. One of my colleagues is a hardcore atheist, and an artist by moonlight. It does not stop me from conversing with him or enjoying his work. Why should Cyanide and Happiness be any different from him? I don't find THIS cartoon funny, but does that mean I should reject every single work they produce?

How many Hollywood actors and actresses or other people in the entertainment industry do we reject their work just because they do not agree with our religious values ALL THE TIME? Did not Aristotle say 'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it'?

Once again, guy try dey make sense.

It seems that you do not know the meaning of "HYPOCRISY"


The cartoons are not just "atheistic". They are "anti-christian"

It is tolerance to accept an atheist group (for a chrsitian)

It is hypocrisy to accept an anti-christian (for a christian)


But, you seem you enjoy deluding yourself......enjoy your delusions of tolerance.

Tolerance my foot. I know your past comments on atheists. Bigot claiming tolerance lol

TheBigUrban2:
It seems that you do not know the meaning of "HYPOCRISY"
The cartoons are not just "atheistic". They are "anti-christian"

Stop the theatrics. And stop lying through your teeth, you're too old for this.





Cyanide and Happiness are not "Anti-Christian", neither are they "Atheistic".





Any half-wit with an internet access can visit the wikipedia page or read the comics at Explosm.net to find out they have no particular affiliations.





All they do is make fun of anything and everything, and sarcastically too.



Christianity would naturally fall into their purview once in a while



As well as a number of other topics that many people may find offensive.

TheBigUrban2:
It is tolerance to accept an atheist group (for a chrsitian)
It is hypocrisy to accept an anti-christian (for a christian)
But, you seem you enjoy deluding yourself......enjoy your delusions of tolerance.
Tolerance my foot.

Tolerance vs. Hypocrisy? Delusions? My line of thought is very rational for one who is not myopic and prejudiced but is receptive to ideas.

TheBigUrban2:
I know your past comments on atheists. Bigot claiming tolerance lol

I'm a bigot now? And what past comments on atheists?

I'm done with you, dude. And I mean it this time, however you attempt to throw libel my way.

@PastorAIO: My apologies for derailing the thread.

texanomaly: “The irrationality of a thing is not an argument against its existence, rather a condition of it. ~ Nietzsche

I love this. In context, here is another relevant quote from Nietzsche. The italics are mine.

"One hears only those questions for which one is able to find answers". - Friedrich Nietzsche

DeepSight:

God is simply the original mind.

Your definition of god seems to be changing regularly over time.. .God is now the original mind?. . .That is an abstract. . .

InesQor:
Stop the theatrics. And stop lying through your teeth, you're too old for this.


Cyanide and Happiness are not "Anti-Christian", neither are they "Atheistic".


Any half-wit with an internet access can visit the wikipedia page or read the comics at Explosm.net to find out they have no particular affiliations.


All they do is make fun of anything and everything, and sarcastically too.



Christianity would naturally fall into their purview once in a while, as well as a number of other topics that a good number of people may find offensive.



Tolerance vs. Hypocrisy? Delusions? My line of thought is very rational for one who is not myopic and prejudiced but is receptive to ideas.


I'm a bigot now? And what past comments on atheists?

I'm done with you, dude. And I mean it this time, however you attempt to throw libel my way.

@PastorAIO: My apologies for derailing the thread.

There is no need for much argument here. JUST ACCEPT THE FACT THAT YOU DIDNT KNOW THAT CYANIDE AND HAPPINESS WERE KNOWN FOR THEIR ANTI-RELIGIOUS SKETCHES.

They make fun of everything...a lot of things but they are mostly known for their anti-religious stuff.



In fact, their main areas of focus are religious topics- abortion, suicide, death and religion itself.







Just remember how this whole argument started- I pointed out the irony in your comment and you went mad;

TheBigUrban2:


lol....a christian using cyanide and happiness cartoon

mazaje:

Your definition of god seems to be changing regularly over time..

No. It's all the same. Someone can describe me as homo sapiens. He will be correct. He can also describe me as a person. He will still be correct. He can later comment that I am one eccentric legal adviser of X company. He will still be correct. He can also describe me as an alcoholic. He will yet still be correct.

In all of these descriptions he will be referring consistently and without change of idea, to who I am.

And so the fact that I have described God in many ways for your questions does not mean that I am telling you about a different conception of God. I have variously said that God is the ONE and INFINITE (my term oneness of infinity which seems to drive you people to delirium or mirth...forgetting that all ancient creeds assert same albeit in their own words). I have called God the sum of self existent laws. This remains true. I have called God the uncaused cause. Still true. I have called God THE transcendent mind. It is true still.

One day you will realize that all that exists is MIND.

WE are little orbs of mind. GOD is the original and master mind.

.God is now the original mind?. . .

Yes. And always has been. Always will be.

That is an abstract. . .

I would say yes and no. Yes to the extent that all realities and planes above and beyond us are indeed abstract. No to the extent that all of these still permeate our existence in every minute detail. Every passing second and every passing thought is evidence of GOD.

DeepSight:

No. It's all the same. Someone can describe me as homo sapiens. He will be correct. He can also describe me as a person. He will still be correct. He can later comment that I am one eccentric legal adviser of X company. He will still be correct. He can also describe me as an alcoholic. He will yet still be correct.

In all of these descriptions he will be referring consistently and without change of idea, to who I am.

And so the fact that I have described God in many ways for your questions does not mean that I am telling you about a different conception of God. I have variously said that God is the ONE and INFINITE (my term oneness of infinity which seems to drive you people to delirium or mirth...forgetting that all ancient creeds assert same albeit in their own words). I have called God the sum of self existent laws. This remains true. I have called God the uncaused cause. Still true. I have called God THE transcendent mind. It is true still.

One day you will realize that all that exists is MIND.

WE are little orbs of mind. GOD is the original and master mind.



Yes. And always has been. Always will be.



I would say yes and no. Yes to the extent that all realities and planes above and beyond us are indeed abstract. No to the extent that all of these still permeate our existence in every minute detail. Every passing second and every passing thought is evidence of GOD.

I like your mind to be candid, its intelligent and I think something odd is happening to it. It has evolved so much and its just getting kind of weird . .Anyway that's a discussion for another day. . . .

mazaje:

I like your mind to be candid, its intelligent and I think something odd is happening to it. It has evolved so much and its just getting kind of weird . .Anyway that's a discussion for another day. . . .

The guy is just making things up as he goes along, surely that should be obvious by now. Now he wants to contend that everything is mind when he ardently argued against my saying that everything is consciousness. After he made a distinction between 'Being' as some kind of abstract something different from the brain. Please let's dismiss the guy and turn to more interesting discussions like the actual topic of this thread.

InesQor:

I love this. In context, here is another relevant quote from Nietzsche. The italics are mine.

"One hears only those questions for which one is able to find answers". - Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche is class. It seems as if the guy had x-ray vision for seeing into the true motivations for what people say and do. If you read nietzsche too much you'll find yourself no longer believing anything that anyone says or any ideology whether religious or political.

A fascinating thing about him is the question, 'where did he get all these insights from'? The guy was a total recluse and he hardly interacted with people yet he knew human nature so well. He was probably the first modern psychologist.

InesQor:

I love this. In context, here is another relevant quote from Nietzsche. The italics are mine.

"One hears only those questions for which one is able to find answers". - Friedrich Nietzsche

I said this on my "did we come to earth to gain a body" thread:



Those who confine themselves to asking only the questions they know can be answered, learn nothing. ~Tex

texanomaly:

I said this on my "did we come to earth to gain a body" thread:



Those who confine themselves to asking only the questions they know can be answered, learn nothing. ~Tex

And Those who ask the questions that cannot be answered invent myths - Pastor AIO the degenerate

Some People don't seek answers to questions. They go about seeking or creating questions for their preprepared perfect Answers. - Pastor AIO the immaculate.

PastorAIO:

And Those who ask the questions that cannot be answered invent myths - Pastor AIO the degenerate

Some People don't seek answers to questions. They go about seeking or creating questions for their preprepared perfect Answers. - Pastor AIO the immaculate.

We all know who

PastorAIO:

And Those who ask the questions that cannot be answered invent myths - Pastor AIO the degenerate

Some People don't seek answers to questions. They go about seeking or creating questions for their preprepared perfect Answers. - Pastor AIO the immaculate.

rationalmind:

We all know who

Everyone...

rationalmind:

We all know who

NAME NAMES!!

texanomaly:

Everyone...

Wow.....see how a guilty person talks?


Sorry not everyone is like you

PastorAIO:

And Those who ask the questions that cannot be answered invent myths - Pastor AIO the degenerate

Some People don't seek answers to questions. They go about seeking or creating questions for their preprepared perfect Answers. - Pastor AIO the immaculate.

Isn't that what all great speakers/debaters do? They direct the conversation.