Good post.

I don,t blame atheist for their presumptive unbelieves, their attacks are mainly on religion, they have unbridled anger for religious doctrines, assuming but not conceeding that atheism is a disbelieve in the existence of a God, there must be something they believe in.

Atheist belief somuch in them selves (ye are gods) and if you by chance meet a proud atheist you will probably think....

They anchore their faith to science because they need something to believe in, not that science has evidence to disprove the existence of a super natural designer.

Listen!!!!!
Atheist and all wanna be atheiest,
You will never see the evidence of the existence of God in any religion.

Religion makes men think like robot(instructions and doctrines). Look outside the walls of religion, you will find the proves you are looking for.

@iam_tewwy:
ok his education crashed and he falls out of belive, urs too crashed and ur god turned out to b supreme in ur own case but can u argue that presently seun is d boss! and today he is more very very far more important than u are? pls who are u? who know u?

pls shift let sane people talk, shift!

Are you him?

Apatheist:
AManFromMars deactivated his account.

Apatheist: Apatheist here.

And so what if you are here?

Martian:


In my opinion,if there is a being responsible for what we call the universe, that being would be out of the scope of our intellectual abilities. We won't be able to discern its existence unless it makes itself or themselves known.


this part here sums up my stand. Apart from the IF. Because I actually believe he exists (not a maybe)
but hasn't been understood. I see religion as man's way of trying to understand and explain God. Many religious doctrines are laughable at best.

But I am christain because I was born Christain.

MOD can we get FP audience?
Pls? Thanks

urheme: Good post.

I don,t blame atheist for their presumptive unbelieves, their attacks are mainly on religion, they have unbridled anger for religious doctrines, assuming but not conceeding that atheism is a disbelieve in the existence of a God, there must be something they believe in.

Atheist belief somuch in them selves (ye are gods) and if you by chance meet a proud atheist you will probably think....

They anchore their faith to science because they need something to believe in, not that science has evidence to disprove the existence of a super natural designer.

Listen!!!!!
Atheist and all wanna be atheiest,
You will never see the evidence of the existence of God in any religion.

Religion makes men think like robot(instructions and doctrines). Look outside the walls of religion, you will find the proves you are looking for.

How is that possible when religions claim they are the only way to knowing God?
Christianity believes Jesus is the way, Mohammed for Islam.

urheme:


And so what if you are here?

You can kiss me.

cococandy: Martian:


In my opinion,if there is a being responsible for what we call the universe, that being would be out of the scope of our intellectual abilities. We won't be able to discern its existence unless it makes itself or themselves known.


this part here sums up my stand. Apart from the IF. Because I actually believe he exists (not a maybe)
but hasn't been understood. I see religion as man's way of trying to understand and explain God. Many religious doctrines are laughable at best.

But I am christain because I was born Christian.

Thank you for knowing the truth.
Theists would say whatever God they believe in is true because it is true, not knowing they believe in that particular deity because they were born into the religion.
Or in the case of Nigerians, because they were colonized by proponents of the faith.

cococandy: Are you him?

No, I am not.

@GSking
@Seun
Still waiting for your responses

I am agnostic atheist. If there is a creator, I have no idea, however, at this point we don't even know how the universe came to be. Assuming that a god did it is just that, an assumption. Even if there was a creator, what if this creator is now dead, or unaware of our existence, or busy with other things.

My opinion, however, is that there is no god in the sense that most people believe.

And all religions and their gods are man-made--that much is absolutely clear to me.

cococandy: Here are some frequently asked questions for atheists.
Anyone feel free to pick any number and explain to me what they think.

[b]1. Are you absolutely sure there is no God? If not, then is it not possible that there is a God? And if it is possible that God exists, then can you think of any reason that would keep you from wanting to look at the evidence?

2. Would you agree that intelligently designed things call for an intelligent designer of them? If so, then would you agree that evidence for intelligent design in the universe would be evidence for a designer of the universe?

3. Would you agree that nothing cannot produce something? If so, then if the universe did not exist but then came to exist, wouldn’t this be evidence of a cause beyond the universe?

4. Would you agree with me that just because we cannot see something with our eyes—such as our mind, gravity, magnetism, the wind—that does not mean it doesn’t exist?

5. Would you also agree that just because we cannot see God with our eyes does not necessarily mean He doesn’t exist?

6. In the light of the big bang evidence for the origin of the universe, is it more reasonable to believe that no one created something out of nothing or someone created something out of nothing?

7. Would you agree that something presently exists? If something presently exists, and something cannot come from nothing, then would you also agree that something must have always existed?

8. If it takes an intelligent being to produce an encyclopedia, then would it not also take an intelligent being to produce the equivalent of 1000 sets of an encyclopedia full of information in the first one-celled animal? (Even atheists such as Richard Dawkins acknowledges that “amoebas have as much information in their DNA as 1000 Encyclopaedia Britannicas.” Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (New York: WW. Norton and Co., 1996), 116.)

9. If an effect cannot be greater than its cause (since you can’t give what you do not have to give), then does it not make more sense that mind produced matter than that matter produced mind, as atheists say?

10. Is there anything wrong anywhere? If so, how can we know unless there is a moral law?

11. If every law needs a lawgiver, does it not make sense to say a moral law needs a Moral Lawgiver?

12. Would you agree that if it took intelligence to make a model universe in a science lab, then it took super-intelligence to make the real universe?

13. Would you agree that it takes a cause to make a small glass ball found in the woods? And would you agree that making the ball larger does not eliminate the need for a cause? If so, then doesn’t the biggest ball of all (the whole universe) need a cause?

14. If there is a cause beyond the whole finite (limited) universe, would not this cause have to be beyond the finite, namely, non-finite or infinite?

15. In the light of the anthropic principle (that the universe was fine-tuned for the emergence of life from its very inception), wouldn’t it make sense to say there was an intelligent being who preplanned human life?[/b]

I'll answer one after the other.

cococandy:
1. Are you absolutely sure there is no God?

If you're talking about the religious gods- Allah, Yahweh, etc, then no, they do not exist.

If not, then is it not possible that there is a God?

There is some possibility that there is- or are creators -
Intelligent Design is plausible, but not all things are perfect, as theists believe.
There are mistakes in the human body, the earth, etc.
If they were created by an infallible god, there wouldn't be mistakes.

And if it is possible that God exists, then can you think of any reason that would keep you from wanting to look at the evidence

What do you think science is for?

cococandy:

Ok. But you can refuse to answer if the question displeases you pls.

I've followed your posts for a while and it seems you're gay.
So I'd like to understand what the gay position on God's existence/non existence is.

Gay position? I don't care, if there's a straight position, personally, I just laugh it off as i just wonder why any sane person would do as a book says instead of doing as their heart tells them.

Are there gays who believe in God?

Too many of them do, I just wonder why they're wasting precious time serving someone on a supposed throne.

Do most gays fall out of belief because no orthodox religion supports it?

Religion supports it, if it doesn't, let it cry me a river. Its just orthodox worshippers paraphrasing books written thousands of years ago. If homosexuals fall out of belief, it should be because of intolerance, i guess. I don't live that kind of life, I grew up around christians, pagans and muslims, none managed to convince me of the existence of God, but each passing day, I'm told I'll burn in hell, is that supposed to put fear in me?

Personally,are you atheist because believers act uppity and judge you?

Don't be too sure. People almost avoid me because I'm ever ready to educate them on the benefits of atheism, they all see how productive my daily life is and wonder why god hasn't snatched my life away from me.

Brb when I'm through watching this match.

GSKing:
Gay position? I don't care, if there's a straight position, personally, I just laugh it off as i just wonder why any sane person would do as a book says instead of doing as their heart tells them.

Too many of them do, I just wonder why they're wasting precious time serving someone on a supposed throne.

Religion supports it, if it doesn't, let it cry me a river. Its just orthodox worshippers paraphrasing books written thousands of years ago. If homosexuals fall out of belief, it should be because of intolerance, i guess. I don't live that kind of life, I grew up around christians, pagans and muslims, none managed to convince me of the existence of God, but each passing day, I'm told I'll burn in hell, is that supposed to put fear in me?

Don't be too sure. People almost avoid me because I'm ever ready to educate them on the benefits of atheism, they all see how productive my daily life is and wonder why god hasn't snatched my life away from me.

Ok.

So where you born atheist?
If not,how has it affected your relationship with your folks?
And what's your opinion about the origin of life?

You're agnostic means you're open to conviction just like seun.
What kind of proof will convince you?

I agree too that religion is man made.

onetrack: I am agnostic atheist. If there is a creator, I have no idea, however, at this point we don't even know how the universe came to be. Assuming that a god did it is just that, an assumption. Even if there was a creator, what if this creator is now dead, or unaware of our existence, or busy with other things.

My opinion, however, is that there is no god in the sense that most people believe.

And all religions and their gods are man-made--that much is absolutely clear to me.

cococandy:
Ok.

So where you born atheist?
If not,how has it affected your relationship with your folks?
And what's your opinion about the origin of life?

No, I was born a christian, atleast, that's what the document says. I remember preferring tv over sunday service as a little girl. I initially quit going to church when I became conscious of my sexuality. No one drags anybody to church where i come from.
I'm 22 and my folks has little or no say over anything i do. My relationship with them is sheer indifference, maybe because they are religious, i can't say. Why would anybody want to tell me who and how to worship anything or anybody? or who and who not to sleep with? As far as i concerned, none of them has a say over my activities, i should have been consulted and asked whether i wanted to be religious or born gay!
My opinion about the origin of life? I know the universe originated from NOTHING. With each passing day, things spring out of nowhere, and someone says a supreme being designed these things? Pheeew!!!

Signing in...

Babe, wait small nah, mey dem finish this match. I dey come.

viewing this topic: UrbanMystique

Logicboy, I see you.

@cococandy.

Do you really wanna start this thread?
You may lose your faith(religion) after this thread.

cococandy:
2. Would you agree that intelligently designed things call
for an intelligent designer of them?

yes, I told you before, intelligent design is plausible. But that doesn't mean that it was designed by the deities of religion, for all we know we could be a project of an alien child.

If so, then would you agree that evidence for intelligent design in the universe would be evidence for a designer of the universe?

Intelligence does not mean infallibility.
That an intelligent person made something doesn't mean there won't be faults. Computer programs and software all have bugs. I'm sure Nairaland has a few bugs of its own.

Also, you said you're a biologist, so you should be aware of the flaws in the human body that was supposedly made by a perfect being in the image of said perfect being.
The [url=en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design] dysteleological argument[/url]

Hahaha.
It is funny because I know religion for what it is. There's nothing to lose.

As for my belief in God. I haven't seen any reason not to believe. All the reason I see point to his existence(that's my belief anyway)

qstar: @cococandy.

Do you really wanna start this thread?
You may lose your faith(religion) after this thread.

Apatheist:
What do you think science is for?

To shorten man's life and to destroy planet earth

Apatheist: yes, I told you before, intelligent design is plausible. But that doesn't mean that it was designed by the deities of religion, for all we know we could be a project of an alien child. this is an interesting POV. Why hasn,t anyone thought of this before now?

Intelligence does not mean infallibility.
That an intelligent person made something doesn't mean there won't be faults. Computer programs and software all have bugs. I'm sure Nairaland has a few bugs of its own.

I didn't say creation is infallible.

Also, you said you're a biologist, so you should be aware of the flaws in the human body that was supposedly made by a perfect being in the image of said perfect being.

again. I don't recall saying God is perfect. Not saying he's not either. I just recognize the existence of a big supreme being. Bigger than us I think. Not necessarily perfect because no one can truthfully say they've been at dinner with God and understand him or know him well. I just think whatever the flaws are,they are insignificant compared to the overall cohesion they come together to form.

But we are getting argumentative. That's not what I want.
So I'll back pedal here and listen to what you have to say henceforth.

urheme:


To shorten man's life and to destroy planet earth

Yes, science evil.
You'd rather think menstruation makes a woman unclean because the Bible says so.
Or leprosy is incurable because the Bible says so.
Or the general life expectancy to reduce.
Or for there to be no computers, no phones, no Internet.
Or for us to be living in the stone age.

See the reasoning of black people.?
Little wonder we are behind the world.

If you believe science is evil, stop using things made with science, break your phone, burn your house, tear your clothes.
Put on loin clothes, tend goats and live in mud houses like your ancestors.

You shall not be missed. The IQ of the people on the Internet will increase.

If I see a god when I die, I'll bash the motherfucker's head in for making me black.

cococandy, as you can tell already, a huge number of atheists were at previous times in their lives devout Christians. Me personally, it wasn't until I decided to read the bible from cover to cover for better understanding that I began to doubt its veracity and the nature of God. This would eventually lead me to a disbelief in Yahweh himself.

During this period, I would ask so many questions, and would get cliches and rebuke as answers. By far the most popular answer was "Don't question the mind of God"/"We cannot understand the mind of God". Well, why then do we have the bible in the first place?

I don't have the time to go into the core of my experiences at the moment, but this guy sums up some of the bigger questions I had in this post below.

Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman

Source: http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/imposs.htm

Introduction

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.


Proving a universal negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.


Defining YHWH

Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.

God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

These attributes of God are related by the Bible, which Christians believe to be the perfect and true Word of God.

One verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.


Perfection seeks even more perfection

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.


Perfection begets imperfection

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.


The Freewill Argument

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.


All-good God knowingly creates future suffering

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.


Infinite punishment for finite sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.


Belief more important than action

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.


Perfection's imperfect revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.


Contradictory justice

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, Molested, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.


Contradictory history

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?


Unfulfilled prophecy

The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.

The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.


The Omniscient changes the future

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.


The Omniscient is surprised

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.


The conclusion of the matter

I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.

Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:

"You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."

If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.

As for me and my house, we shall choose reality.

cococandy:

But we are getting argumentative. That's not what I want.
So I'll back pedal here and listen to what you have to say henceforth.

I'm sorry if I was getting argumentative..
Religion says god is perfect.
How can you believe in a god and not believe in religion?
That is counter-intuitive.
I believe there can be a creator- or creators- but is none of the religious ones.

Again, I apologize if it seems I am argumentative.

cococandy: MOD can we get FP audience?
Pls? Thanks

Ask Seun.