how do u explain the case of a man declared clinically dead (brain dead) but comes back to life and talks about death eperiences??

RayMcBlue:

I agree that energy is a constant, and undergo all sorts of transformations, but imbibing it in your delusions of afterlife is a no-no. "Consciousness" is not a form of energy. It's a byproduct of the human psyche as a result of chemical reactions. Don't complicate the issue.

RayMcBlue:

You forgot "Religion", the age-long enemy of progress/science.

Right. They are not helping.

enigmaotr:
Animals are also sentient beings.
Why is it that only humans seek to have a purpose in life?

Have you not seen that video of the honey badger on YouTube? You can't tell me that a honey badger isn't seeking a purpose in life. They always mean business.

Weah96:

Have you not seen that video of the honey badger on YouTube? You can't tell me that a honey badger isn't seeking a purpose in life. They always mean business.

Dogs and Apes? What about them?
And which business do Honey Badgers mean? It's still a fact that all animals, but Man lives by instinct

alexleo:

And i still ask, has science ended discoveries? No. So you still cant be sure.

Of course not!
Science is ever-changing, and if we discover we were wrong about something we make amends.

No matter how cynical we choose to be,we can't compare a dog to a man,or a badger to a human! Never


Like for a few weeks now,I've had a nagging thought on objectivity. The question, Is my red your red? And do you see what I see? Are driving me crazy.

MrAnony1 is here again with his convoluted logic. .LOL. . .OK let's see. . .

MrAnony1:
You seem to lean towards the believe that it is more likely the case that there is no such thing as an afterlife because you are not conscious of any events that happened before you were born (let's refer to this as a "pre-life" ).

1. I hope you do realize that it doesn't follow that if you don't have a pre-life, you won't have an afterlife. (If you don't realize this, please take some time to explain to me why you think it follows).

The after life is simply a man made invention that is why there are different ideas and versions of the after life. . .Each according to the ideas and fantasies of the men that created it. . . .

2. Now that said, your question leaves us with two possibilities:

a. An afterlife exists
b. An afterlife does not exist.

3. I will argue that:

a) If an afterlife does not exist then man really has no actual moral obligations i.e It is not reasonable to act morally

b) If an afterlife exists and it's outcome depends on the way the present life is lived, then there are actual moral obligations and hence it is reasonable to act morally.

It is very reasonable to act morally because it makes you live in peace and tranquility with those around you. . .Living morally and abiding by societal moral laws makes the society orderly, organized, less chaotic and sees to it that we all flourish. . .The problem with the after life which you are espousing, is that it does not even depend on how morally upright a person lives, it all depends of what a person believes in. . .According to the world view you hold only you and those that accepted the stories written by some ancient Jews, Romans and Greeks will be saved after they die because they happen to believe in the right revelation, all those that do not subscribe to that belief and hold unto some other form of belief will be condemned. . .How they live their lives DOES NOT matter. ..The bible is very clear on that, it sys Jesus was sent to the world and those that do not believe in him and condemned already. . .It says Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no one can get to see god unless through him. . .Without Jesus it doesn't matter how moral you live your life, a good , upright muslim, hindu, taoist, Jianist, atheist, Buddist etc is already condemned for not believing in the biblical stories. . .In the world view you hold, living a moral life has nothing to do with what happens to you in the after life, belief is what matters. . .The same thing applies to Islam, it doesn't matter how good or morally upright you are, as long as you are not a muslim, you are already condemned to hell. . .What kind of moral justice is this? . . .Isn't it sickening that people will be judged not based on how well they live their lives but on the type of belief they hold and how they lived according to those beliefs?. . .Acting morally is completely unreasonable under the world view you hold because it doesn't matter, belief is what matters under your world view. . .

4). Expanding upon the above....

a. If there is no afterlife, then there are no consequences for the sort of life you choose to live i.e. whether you spend your life taking pleasure in smashing the skulls of innocent babies or whether you spend your life taking pleasure in caring for the helpless little ones, in the end you will just die and rot forget everything and eventually be forgotten. There is no way we can objectively say that one pleasure is better than the other. Therefore there is no reason why one needs to act morally.

b. If on the other hand, there is an afterlife and our present life determines it's outcome, then there is an objective way in which we ought to live this present life and hence there is a reason to act morally.

The responsibility to get things right here and now matters a lot since this is the only life we have and we KNOW. . .There is always a consequence for what ever life you chose to live here. . .Pls go outside and start smashing the heads of babies outside and see if the consequence will not follow you there and then. . .The responsibility is ours to do all that we can to ensure that justice is done here and now. If we don't do it, no one else will do it for us. . . .There are so many ways we can say actions are good or bad regardless of any cosmic or eternal justice. . .In the world view you hold, it doesn't really matter how you live your life, the most moral atheist in your world view will go to hell, just for being an atheist, the most moral muslim will go to hell just for being a muslim. . .the most moral hindu will go to hell just for being a hindu. . .jesus is the only way to life according to the world view you hold. . .Living a moral life has nothing to do with how you spend your life in the other world, what you believe in is what matters. . .It is your world view that actually has nothing to do with moral uprightness. . .belief and how you act according to the belief is what matters. . .

5). Now I must point out that the above does not prove that there is or isn't an afterlife however it shows that the absence of an afterlife is not consistent with the presence of moral values. So if you believe that there are moral duties that we ought to adhere to, then an afterlife would be consistent with such a belief.

The moral duties we perform here and now affects us all as human beings, that alone is enough reason for us to act morally. . .Because or moral actions or in actions affects us either positively or negatively. . .An afterlife based on the type of belief you subscribe to does not in any way sound reasonable or just and has nothing to do with the moral values we hold or share here in this life. . .

If on the other hand you don't believe in an afterlife, then I struggle to see how you can make a case for why we ought to live morally especially if we can derive pleasure from doing evil deeds. (If you think the two are rationally compatible then you may need to explain to me how so)

Because living morally and doing good affects all positively. . A society with less crime will flourish better than a society with more crime, people will live longer, there will be greater degree of cohesion and unity, happiness level and general satisfaction will increase and depression will be reduced etc. . .It's effect can be seen, take a society like japan , where the people live more moral lives than Nigeria, it's effect shows even in their lives, Japan has less crime and corruption than Nigeria, that alone has made the life expectancy of the Japaneses to be much more than that of the average Nigerian. . .The average life expectancy of the Nigerian is 48 while that of the Japaneses is about 80. . .Because of low crime, equal distribution of resources and wealth among the citizenry, a system of justice that works, organized way of life that sees to it that even the least among the citizens are protected and very low corruption at all levels the society has flourished much better than Nigeria where there is mass injustice, high crime at all levels, endemic and massive corruption at all levels, unequal distribution of wealth, no proper justice system, the least among the citizens are not protected at all but constantly abused etc. . .There is more than enough reason to act morally in this life because it makes our societies to flourish. . .by the way most Nigerians are theist and believe in the after life, most Japanese are atheist and do not. . .But it doesn't matter, what matters is the here and now since this is the ONLY life we have and we know. . .

RayMcBlue:

I agree that energy is a constant, and undergo all sorts of transformations, but imbibing it in your delusions of afterlife is a no-no. "Consciousness" is not a form of energy. It's a byproduct of the human psyche as a result of chemical reactions. Don't complicate the issue.

Without Energy there is no consciousness, no human psyche, no chemical reaction and even no existence. The challenge is not with the complexity of my post but your understanding it.

GeneralShepherd: No matter how cynical we choose to be,we can compare a dog to a man,or a badger to a human! Never


Like for a few weeks now,I've had a nagging thought on objectivity. The question, Is my red your red? And do you see what I see? Are driving me crazy.

That there is one major challenge with life. It is impractical for everyone to see things from the same viewpoint. It is possible for two individuals to be objective in their assessment of a particular item yet hold different views about it.

alexleo:

Has science ended discoveries? No. You still cant be so sure because science keeps discovering and rediscovering. What if later in life they make a new discovery that will cancel the one you are holding on to now? What if you are dead by then and you cant do anything about it than to face the discovery? What if what you ll face then will be so horrible and could ve been averted if you had given a deeper thought to this issue now?

So? "Discovery" is infinite... as is science.

benELOHIM7: this is how i understand what striktlymi is saying: life is like an engine running on a certain quantity of fuel. when the fuel finishes what happens? the engine goes off but the fuel is transformed into something else which still exists. the soul is the fuel while the engine is our mortal self

^^^Hmmmn...

Now here is the question: When the bacterium dies, does it get an afterlife?

What about mosquitoes? A mosquito is much more complex than a bacterium cell. For one thing, a mosquito is a multi-cellular insect with amazing capabilities. But if you look at each cell in a mosquito, it is very much like a bacterium in its basic functioning.

What about mice? They are no different from mosquitoes. Mice are multicellular organisms, but each cell is a little chemical factory very much like a bacterium. Dogs? Ditto. Chimps? Ditto.

striktlymi:

That there is one major challenge with life. It is impractical for everyone to see things from the same viewpoint. It is possible for two individuals to be objective in their assessment of a particular item yet hold different views about it.

But diverting really, how are you sure that what you see as red is red for the next person?

Have you ever wonder how possible it will be to view yourself without a mirror?

benELOHIM7: how do u explain the case of a man declared clinically dead (brain dead) but comes back to life and talks about death eperiences??

"Near Death Experience" is a natural, chemically induced state that the human brain enters. The trigger for an NDE is lack of oxygen to the brain and body. If you read scientific papers, you find that there is a completely chemical and completely non-spiritual reason for the features of every NDE.

There is a drug called "Ketamine" that produces all of the elements of an NDE when it is injected into normal, non-dying people, BTW.

striktlymi:

Without Energy there is no consciousness, no human psyche, no chemical reaction and even no existence. The challenge is not with the complexity of my post but your understanding it.

Okay, now, I get the point you were trying to make. Case closed.

Apatheist:
So do we all.
Your answer is in your question:

That's pretty much what happens.
The same way it was before you were born, that's how it'll be when you die.

You can leave your mark in the world, like the people who you mentioned did-- Jaja of Opobo and Lugard.

And you know this how??
Why can't you just settle for "I don't know"?

RayMcBlue:

So? "Discovery" is infinite... and so is science.

So you can't say for sure that there's no afterlife.

Apatheist:
Of course not!
Science is ever-changing, and if we discover we were wrong about something we make amends.

And what if by the time the discovery is made you are already dead and facing the discovery which you could have avoided in life here if you had given it a deeper thought and taken some preventive measures?

And what if the discovery is such a horrible one which you cannot do anything about it by then?

macof:
And you know this how??
Why can't you just settle for "I don't know"?

Premise 1: Consciousness is brought about by the brain, agreed?
Premise 2: The brain dies during death, agreed?
Corollary: Consciousness ends with the advent of death since the brain that "produces" consciousness is dead.

I could be wrong though.

alexleo:

And what if by the time the discovery is made you are already dead and facing the discovery which you could have avoided in life here if you had given it a deeper thought and taken some preventive measures?

I fail to see how a"discovery" can be made by a dead person with no consciousness.

And what if the discovery is such a horrible one which you cannot do anything about it by then?

Pascal's Wager, seriously?
Can't you guys come up with something new?

What if Ganesh is the right god? What will you do?

What if it's Amon?

alexleo:

So you can't say for sure that there's no afterlife.

Think back to when you were a kid and you realized that Santa was imaginary. As soon as you knew it, it was obvious. Reindeer cannot fly. A man cannot slide down chimneys. There is no way for one little sleigh to carry all the toys for all the kids in the world. Etc. It is obvious that Santa is make believe. That's discovery.

In the same way, it is obvious that human beings are big, walking chemical reactions. When the chemical reactions cease, you die. That is the end of it. No afterlife.

The afterlife is just a human idea and creation that is why there are many different versions of it. . . Some have moved from the after life to reincarnation. . All human ideas and conceptions. . . This is the only life we have and we know. . .any other thing is a lie and pure fantasy and fiction. . .

mazaje: MrAnony1 is here again with his convoluted logic. .LOL. . .OK let's see. . .

Lol, this would have made sense if you could use logic properly but hey never mind, I can't wait to see what you came up with

The after life is simply a man made invention that is why there are different ideas and versions of the after life. . .Each according to the ideas and fantasies of the men that created it. . . .

How exactly does this tell us whether or not a pre-life necessitates an afterlife? Your very first reply already goes off point.

It is very reasonable to act morally because it makes you live in peace and tranquility with those around you. . .
Living morally and abiding by societal moral laws makes the society orderly, organized, less chaotic and sees to it that we all flourish

If in the end we still die and rot anyway and are erased from any conscious existence, regardless of whether we strive for peace or for war then what is the point of upholding one and denouncing the other?


You would have noticed that I didn't bother with the rest of your post as it has nothing to do with whether a belief in an afterlife is consistent with a belief in objective moral duties.

If you want to discuss with me, you'll need to stay on point my friend.

GeneralShepherd:


But diverting really, how are you sure that what you see as red is red for the next person?

Have you ever wonder how possible it will be to view yourself without a mirror?

Could be a diversion but a healthy one. I'd rather to talk about this than continue with the 'ego boosting' debate on the after life. The life we live now and how it interacts with current realities is more important than that which is to come.

I don't assume that everyone sees my red as red. It is very possible that some persons are colour blind. It is also possible that some persons are brought up in societies where my red is black to them or purple.

Man, for the most part, is a product of the society he grew up in. His social interactions and the culture of his people goes a long way in affecting his perception of what is. One reason why a Nigerian born and bred white man would act, talk and think like a Nigerian.

Ultimately, the debate on the life after would come down to how the individual defines what is true for him. The Atheist may define truth as that which is revealed by Science while I would define it as that revealed by God.

I believe the questions that flood your mind now only leads to self discovery. You are becoming aware of your identity. What you see in your mirror goes a long way in defining who you think you are.

RayMcBlue:

Think back to when you were a kid and you realized that Santa was imaginary. As soon as you knew it, it was obvious. Reindeer cannot fly. A man cannot slide down chimneys. There is no way for one little sleigh to carry all the toys for all the kids in the world. Etc. It is obvious that Santa is make believe. That's discovery.

In the same way, it is obvious that human beings are big,
walking chemical reactions. When the chemical reactions cease, you die. That is the end of it. No afterlife.

You are not being honest. You said that science and discovery are infinite, and here you are drawing conclusion. You still can't be sure. It is not yet over until it is over. Since discovery and science are not yet over then you can't say for sure.

Apatheist: I fail to see how a"discovery" can be made by a dead person with no consciousness.


Pascal's Wager, seriously?
Can't you guys come up with something new?

What if Ganesh is the right god? What will you do?

What if it's Amon?

Again you are not being honest. Forget about Paschal Wager and religion(don't divert issues). We are talking about discovery and sciennce which is infinite. You can't draw conclusion yet on this issue.

mazaje: The afterlife is just a human idea and creation that is why there are many different versions of it. . . Some have moved from the after life to reincarnation. . All human ideas and conceptions. . . This is the only life we have and we know. . .any other thing is a lie and pure fantasy and fiction. . .

No friend. You ve not died before so you can't say for sure. Discoveries and science have not ended so you can't conclude yet.

alexleo:

You are not being honest. You said that science and discovery are infinite, and here you are drawing conclusion. You still can't be sure. It is not yet over until it is over. Since discovery and science are not yet over then you can't say for sure.

The concept of the afterlife is a "superstition" when you apply the cold hard logic of science. After you had examined, calculated, and separated your thesis, the conclusion that the notion is a mere fabrication is inevitable.

In other words, the concept cannot be scientifically proven. In fact, that in itself is a discovery. Therefore, it's conclusive... until it can be proven otherwise. The laws of infinity weren't affected, at all.

alexleo:

Again you are not being honest. Forget about Paschal Wager and religion(don't divert issues). We are talking about discovery and sciennce which is infinite. You can't draw conclusion yet on this issue.

It's all the same.
Afterlife is a concept of religion, not science.
I don't believe in any God, I don't therefore see how the "afterlife" affects me.

RayMcBlue:

The concept of the afterlife is a "superstition" when you apply the cold hard logic of science. After you had examined, calculated, and separated your thesis, the conclusion that the notion is a mere fabrication is inevitable.

In other words, the concept cannot be scientifically proven. In fact, that in itself is a discovery. Therefore, it's conclusive... until it can be proven otherwise. The laws of infinity weren't affected, at all.

You still dont get it. What science cannot prove today, it can prove tomorrow. Except you are not being honest that science is infinite.

Apatheist:
It's all the same.
Afterlife is a concept of religion, not science.
I don't believe in any God, I don't therefore see how the "afterlife" affects me.

It doesnt matter whether you believe in God. Some of the things that science proved today were discovered or talked about yesterday.

alexleo:

You still dont get it. What science cannot prove today, it can prove tomorrow. Except you are not being honest that science is infinite.

I agree with you; science will soon prove the existence of Santa Claus
Then our Lord, The Flying Spaghetti Monster.