FOLYKAZE:

What you refer to as human consciousness is nothing more than sentience. As it is, if human consciousness define as sentience, it cannot survive death but the center of all cognition which is MIND can of course survive death.


The Russian scientists are working tirelessly on who they can save mind after the body is dead on a cyber space. . . . . . .not withstanding, it is been done in Yoruba spirituality as Egungun.

Pls can you expound on the Egungun. . .

mazaje:

This is why I keep saying that you are very deluded. . .This topic is specifically about human consciousness but in your normal deluded ways you want to push it into something else. . .

Why are you sounding harsh? Is there something wrong with you?

Consciousness does not specifically applies to Human only. This is the reason I always ask you to widen your mendula when dealing with me.

Some spirituality sees consciousness in everything. Panpsychism as it is known sees consciousness in stone and trees/plants. Even your comrade Ray which you went on rampage liking his post questioned bacteria consciousness. . . . .you could not shout on him but you can come after me and bark. . . . .

When we talk about consciousness, survival after death. . . . . .human should not be the only case study.

As it is, you dont even know what human consciousness is. . . .

mazaje:
I gave you the definition of human consciousness but in your normal deluded ways you deny it and want to consciousness to go by you own definition. . .

The definition you provided is of sentience and not consciousness. Sentience has to do with brain. . . Human consciousness has to do with self.

Sorry I have helped you with definition. . . . .

But you havent provided any definition here. . . .the crap you provided is sentience confused as consciousness. . . . Both does not correlate.

mazaje:
Does a stone respond to anything around it?. . .If i hit a touch or pour something on a stone will it respond the way a human would?. . .Are you saying a stone is aware of its environment?. . .Can you show how?. . .

What sort of childish question is this? So you dont know stones react to it natural environment? You dont know stone respond to it surrounding and external forces?

Simple google search would help you. . . . .or kindly go the street, pick a stone and do whatever you can on it. . . .observe if it react or not.

No time for kiddie questions

mazaje:
I have already giving you the definition of human consciousness and that is what this topic is all about. . .Your delusions will not allow you to accept it, this topic is not about plants if you want to start a topic about plants go open one., . .

You could have make lot of sense if you've done away with this baseless tantrum of yours. Mr, stop attacking me. . . . .cant you just have your say and reply?


You did not define consciousness. . . . .stop lying.

Plants are living entities.
Plants are going to die
Plants are conscious

now tell me how using plant as case study is wrong.

Are you different from plants and animals?

mazaje:
Does human consciousness survive when the brain and the entire body does?. . .

You havent tell me what human consciousness is. . .. . .what you defined is sentience and nothing more.

I even helped you in defining what consciousness is. . . .I defined every words to show you I know what I am saying. . . .why cant you address it rather than dodging all the time?


What is human consciousness? How can you separate this from sentience and awareness?

We are discussing human consciousness and death survival like you agree, can you before proceeding to death tell us what life is?

mazaje:
By the way the fact that plants respond to stimuli does not make them conscious like humans. . .

Where did I say plants are conscious like human?

Consciousness is define as state of being conscious.

Conscious is defined as being aware and responding to ones surroundings OR being aware and reacting.

You mentioned above that plant respond. . . . Responsiveness is prompted by awareness. You can not respond to or react to something you are not aware of.

Therefore, plant is conscious.

mazaje:
So chemicals that react to each other are conscious of each other?. . .Your delusions is reacting new lows. . .Do you know what a chemical reaction is?. . .

There can never be reaction without awareness. . . . .

How your logic fails to touch here baffles me.

Combination of awareness and reaction OR responsiveness is CONSCIOUSNESS.


And can you tell me how a chemical is not aware of other chemical before reacting to it.

mazaje:

Pls can you expound on the Egungun. . .

Lol

copied from Ayeakamara

"the believe that the soul of the departed fathers, mothers, grand-parents and great-grand–parents are never far away and they are available to protect, love, guide, and guard the other members of the family who are still having a physical existence in creation. We use creation in this context, because of the fact that the physical world – is the tangible and the material world, while the spiritual world is the expansive world, the real world where the real things take place before they appear in the material world. The spiritual world precedes the physical world, and it is the world of realities-THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.

These two worlds are just one continuum entity within the framework of universal existence of things or universal network."

Through Egungun/Oro, People access the mind of the dead ancestors. They sometime invoke this mind on someone and communicate directly OR they can access it through Ikin divination.

The essence is for communicating with the Mind, accessing some info among others from the dead ancestors.




It is now part of festive in Yoruba system

How is stone conscious? Does it respond to stimuli?

FOLYKAZE:

Why are you sounding harsh? Is there something wrong with you?

Consciousness does not specifically applies to Human only. This is the reason I always ask you to widen your mendula when dealing with me.

Some spirituality sees consciousness in everything. Panpsychism as it is known sees consciousness in stone and trees/plants. Even your comrade Ray which you went on rampage liking his post questioned bacteria consciousness. . . . .you could not shout on him but you can come after me and bark. . . . .

This topic is specifically about human consciousness, deal with it or get out. . .

When we talk about consciousness, survival after death. . . . . .human should not be the only case study.

Again this is about human consiouesssneees not about your delusion of stone consciousness or urine consciousnesses. . .

As it is, you dont even know what human consciousness is. . . .

Really?. . .

The definition you provided is of sentience and not consciousness. Sentience has to do with brain. . . Human consciousness has to do with self.

Sorry I have helped you with definition. . . . .

But you havent provided any definition here. . . .the crap you provided is sentience confused as consciousness. . . . Both does not correlate.

This is my problem with you. you are very deluded, I gave you a standard definition of consciousness from wikipedia but you refused to accept it. . ..Seriously you are very deluded. . .

Again. . . Human consciousness is the or state of awareness, self awareness or of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. While from dictionary.com Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. How does my definition equate to sentience?. . .You are deluded. . .

What sort of childish question is this? So you dont know stones react to it natural environment? You dont know stone respond to it surrounding and external forces?

Simple google search would help you. . . . .or kindly go the street, pick a stone and do whatever you can on it. . . .observe if it react or not.

No time for kiddie questions

A stone reacting to its environment doesn't mean it is conscious. . .Is a stone self aware?. . .Does it know that it is a stone and is different to the pool of water beside it?. . .Have you shown that to be true?. . .




You could have make lot of sense if you've done away with this baseless tantrum of yours. Mr, stop attacking me. . . . .cant you just have your say and reply?

You did not define consciousness. . . . .stop lying.

Plants are living entities.
Plants are going to die
Plants are conscious

now tell me how using plant as case study is wrong.

Are you different from plants and animals?

This is not a topic about plants and animals, and yes I am very different from plant for example, i have a brain, I am self aware, a plant has no brain and isn't self aware as i am. . .If a plant dies is there any part of it that goes on to live?. . .

You havent tell me what human consciousness is. . .. . .what you defined is sentience and nothing more.

I even helped you in defining what consciousness is. . . .I defined every words to show you I know what I am saying. . . .why cant you address it rather than dodging all the time?

Stop lying you deluded good, i have already given you the definition of conscience according to wiki that you refused to accept it and try to lie that it means sentience is your own business not mine. . . . .

What is human consciousness? How can you separate this from sentience and awareness?

We are discussing human consciousness and death survival like you agree, can you before proceeding to death tell us what life is?

If i give you the standard definition of life, you'll then go ahead and claim its something else. . .LOL!

Where did I say plants are conscious like human?

Consciousness is define as state of being conscious.

Conscious is defined as being aware and responding to ones surroundings OR being aware and reacting.

Human consciousnesses is not just only being aware of ones surroundings and responding or reacting to it but also self awareness. . .A 2 months old baby responds to touch but the baby is not self aware and as such can not be said to be fully conscious. . .

You mentioned above that plant respond. . . . Responsiveness is prompted by awareness. You can not respond to or react to something you are not aware of.

Therefore, plant is conscious.

A plant isn't self aware and isn't conscious like humans, this topic is about humans, i don't wanna waste time on plants. . .

There can never be reaction without awareness. . . . .

How your logic fails to touch here baffles me.

Combination of awareness and reaction OR responsiveness is CONSCIOUSNESS.


And can you tell me how a chemical is not aware of other chemical before reacting to it.

So chemicals that react to each other are aware of each other?. When chemicals react to each other it simply involve the forming and breaking of chemical bonds between atoms. Is a bomb conscious?. . .If I drop it it will react to the things around it by exploding, does that make it a conscious being like me as a human?. . .Is a bomb aware that it is a bomb?. . .

FOLYKAZE:

What you refer to as human consciousness is nothing more than sentience. As it is, if human consciousness define as sentience, it cannot survive death but the center of all cognition which is MIND can of course survive death.


The Russian scientists are working tirelessly on who they can save mind after the body is dead on a cyber space. . . . . . .not withstanding, it is been done in Yoruba spirituality as Egungun.

You keep lying and making things up. .What is the mind and how does it survive death?. . .How does the mind survive when the brain is dead. . .

FOLYKAZE:

Lol

copied from Ayeakamara

"the believe that the soul of the departed fathers, mothers, grand-parents and great-grand–parents are never far away and they are available to protect, love, guide, and guard the other members of the family who are still having a physical existence in creation. We use creation in this context, because of the fact that the physical world – is the tangible and the material world, while the spiritual world is the expansive world, the real world where the real things take place before they appear in the material world. The spiritual world precedes the physical world, and it is the world of realities-THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.

These two worlds are just one continuum entity within the framework of universal existence of things or universal network."

Through Egungun/Oro, People access the mind of the dead ancestors. They sometime invoke this mind on someone and communicate directly OR they can access it through Ikin divination.

The essence is for communicating with the Mind, accessing some info among others from the dead ancestors.




It is now part of festive in Yoruba system

What am I do to with this fictitious myth?. . .

mazaje:

You keep lying and making things up. .What is the mind and how does it survive death?. . .How does the mind survive when the brain is dead. . .

Stop asking me kiddie question. . .there is nowhere I told you that I know all.

Can you pls direct your question to Dmitry Itskov, and his team who are working tireless on how to download mind on cyberspace? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2322703/Want-live-forever-Russian-billionaire-reveals-real-life-avatar-plan--says-upload-brain-hologram-immortal-2045.html ?


There is a facebook page set aside for the mission. . .there is also a designated site. . . . .where you can reach them from.


If you see a babalawo, ask him to help me on communicating with your ancestors.

There your answer lies

mazaje:

What am I do to with this fictitious myth?. . .

Dmitry Itskov is projecting it

and a lazy as s sites behing his computer only to talk ill about it.





Your own type of atheism is simply. . . . . . .noisemaker.

FOLYKAZE:


Stop asking me kiddie question. . .there is nowhere I told you that I know all.

Can you pls direct your question to Dmitry Itskov, and his team who are working tireless on how to download mind on cyberspace? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2322703/Want-live-forever-Russian-billionaire-reveals-real-life-avatar-plan--says-upload-brain-hologram-immortal-2045.html ?


There is a facebook page set aside for the mission. . .there is also a designated site. . . . .where you can reach them from.


If you see a babalawo, ask him to help me on communicating with your ancestors.

There your answer lies

So because some scientist are working to see if something is possible means it;s a factual reality?. . .Their work remains a plan and an idea they believe is workable, so far they have failed to show that is it real and workable. . .So fail. . .So babalawo speaks to the people that are dead. eh?. . .What am I to do with all these nonsense?. . .Christians go to heaven see Jesus their dead relatives and come back, some have also claimed to have reincarnated. . .After all the dailama is a reincarnated god according to him and people that believe in him. . .I don't have time for all these superstitions and endless mythology. . .

FOLYKAZE:


Dmitry Itskov is projecting it

and a lazy as s sites behing his computer only to talk ill about it.





Your own type of atheism is simply. . . . . . .noisemaker.

Projecting it means its true. . .if only you know how many scientist have projected many things and abandoned them. . .it is something scientist do constantly. . Project things and abandon them when the evidence is lacking. . .Projecting something means noting. . .It is you own yoruba spiritual delusion that is something eh?. . .

mazaje:

If consiousness is a form of energy as you say and the body dies then the energy changes into something else that is not consiousness. . .just as when you die your body forms part of the soil which is not you as a human being. . .

It's impossible for your body to change to what is not conscious.
Because all things are conscious.

The moment you die u cease being a human being, you jst a dead body waiting for decomposition as your earlier sentient consciousness leaves your body

macof:

It's impossible for your body to change to what is not conscious.
Because all things are conscious.

The moment you die u cease being a human being, you jst a dead body waiting for decomposition as your earlier sentient consciousness leaves your body

Is the soil conscious the way a human being is?. . .Is a piece of rock which your dead body can eventually turn into self aware?. . .Is it alive?. . .Can it reason, think, or know that is a being separate from another being?. .When you say all things are conscious what do you mean?. . .

mazaje:
What am I to do with your Yoruba mythology?. . .Does human consciousness continue when you die?. . Will you be fully conscious when you die?. . .Where is the evidence for this?. . .

How is "Emi re ti re koja" mythology?? You don't understand simple terms don't make it mythology.

How some religionists say evolution and dinosaurs are mythology..how are you more different from Christians who condemn without understanding?

Where is the evidence for dinosaurs or evolution or the big bang but you consider it possible don't you? Have u observed a genus evolve? have u observed a bang of photons?? Have u seen a dinosaur fossil??

Use ur head and understand what folykaze and I are saying otherwise you might as well say There are no planets outside our galaxy because there's no evidence for it

Attitudes like yours is a disgrace to science

mazaje:

The link it self specifically used the word maybe on the premise of the thesis leaving the entire hypothesis in the realm of assumption. . .I did not write it, the person that did clearly left the hypothesis in the realm of assumption, by the way as you noted it has nothing to do with death so I wonder why you brought it up. . .I have already given you the definition of human consciousness, if you want to go around talking about things that are off topic then go create a separate thread, this topic is about human consciousness and whether it survives when the human body dies. . .Again does human consciousnesses survive the death of the entire body?. ..

When we discuss human consciousness we have to bring in other types of consciousness to grasps even if just little on the concept of consciousness.
so don't tell us we are off topic, we are right on topic

mazaje:

Is the soil conscious the way a human being is?. . .Is a piece of rock which your dead body can eventually turn into self aware?. . .Is it alive?. . .Can it reason, think, or know that is a being separate from another being?. .When you say all things are conscious what do you mean?. . .

don't you get it? There are different types of consciousness, there is the consciousness in the soil, one in humans another in cats etc. even planets and stars are conscious

But we all don't have the same type consciousness even science knows that, that's why human consciousness is sometimes called sentience. there's the consciousness in various non-human animals which isn't like that in us. here's a drop: there's a different consciousness between humans like we all share 99% identical dna we are still different from each other so is our consciousness.

The allocation of our different consciousness is what we call natural selection.

for you Sentience is being confused as consciousness and no modern Philosopher would ever make such confusion. Sentience is only a branch of consciousness as such not everything is sentient by way of natural selection but everything is conscious

the problem with you is you think at death comes the end of consciousness when it is only sentience that dies (actually converts)...means we cannot feel- pleasure, pain, love, anger etc. we have no material character- greed, kindness, etc. we have no senses well at least hearing, taste, sight, smell. I wouldn't say touch.
consciousness lives on any where there's energy, and energy is everywhere

That is why I often laugh at Christians who say the creator who is supposed to be a spirit (what science calls energy) feels wrath, jealousy, love etc. when these things are strictly attributes of sentient beings.

non-sentient as I know can't reason but they can react and proact out of awareness of their environment

Dragging a topic as simple as ABC! How do you expect a dead body to still be conscious? Contrary to what the atheists are saying here, the brain, the heart and body cells die only after you lose your consciousness. At death, the ties between your soul/mind are being severed and ultimately you become unconscious, then your body dies. No matter what you want to prove, your mind/soul/consciousness can never die with your body.
I've had a near death experience when I was still very young. I saw myself up in the sky seen the earth as I would later see in Geography textbooks. There was this cord-like link connecting me to the world. I didn't understand the purpose of this link until I discovered the phrase in Eccles 12:6a "The silver chain will snap, and the golden lamp will fall and break."
The severance of the chain hanging the golden lamp must come before its falling and ultimately, breaking.
I regained my consciousness because the silver-cord was not broken.
The soul, mind, consciousness, whatever you want to call it is the invisible chain hanging the body.
The lamp breaks, but the chain will still be there. That's how it works.

It's plain silly however, to start convincing someone who has made up his or her mind. But if you like, remain an atheist because, to you the existence of God can not be proved by science. But a time is coming when you'll have to make a choice between God and Satan. Wish both of them away all you want, but they're are there and their existence are beyond reasonable thoughts.

macof:

How is "Emi re ti re koja" mythology?? You don't understand simple terms don't make it mythology.

It is mythology. . .It's no different from a christian that claimed he died went to heaven and saw his loved ones in white robes and floating in the clouds. . .What has the souls of ancestors protecting and guiding those that are alive got to do with reality?. . .Can it be objectively tested?. . .

How some religionists say evolution and dinosaurs are mythology..how are you more different from Christians who condemn without understanding?

There are dinosaur fossils available for all to see, micro evolution has been observed. . .Christians can't deny it, they deny macro evolution because it lacks credible evidence according to them, scientist insist that the principle guiding micro evolution is the same principle guiding macro evolution. . .

Where is the evidence for dinosaurs or evolution or the big bang but you consider it possible don't you? Have u observed a genus evolve? have u observed a bang of photons?? Have u seen a dinosaur fossil??

Full dinosaur fossils have been found like this one below. . .



Micor evolution have been observed, the principle of evolution has been used to make certain drugs, stars have been observed to be moving away from each other by space observatories etc. . .

Use ur head and understand what folykaze and I are saying otherwise you might as well say There are no planets outside our galaxy because there's no evidence for it

Attitudes like yours is a disgrace to science

I can not prove to you that Jesus is not presently in heaven siting on the right hand of god and guiding christians. .I can not also prove to you that the ancient Egyptian Pharos are not together with Ra Amun enjoying heavenly bliss. . .I don't have to bother with such mythologies. . .There is what we call reality. there is what we call mythology, fantasy and fiction. . .Egungun falls into the category of fiction and mythology. . .Even in science there is pseudo science and fringe science. . .

macof:

don't you get it? There are different types of consciousness, there is the consciousness in the soil, one in humans another in cats etc. even planets and stars are conscious

But we all don't have the same type consciousness even science knows that, that's why human consciousness is sometimes called sentience. there's the consciousness in various non-human animals which isn't like that in us. here's a drop: there's a different consciousness between humans like we all share 99% identical dna we are still different from each other so is our consciousness.

The allocation of our different consciousness is what we call natural selection.

for you Sentience is being confused as consciousness and no modern Philosopher would ever make such confusion. Sentience is only a branch of consciousness as such not everything is sentient by way of natural selection but everything is conscious

the problem with you is you think at death comes the end of consciousness when it is only sentience that dies (actually converts)...means we cannot feel- pleasure, pain, love, anger etc. we have no material character- greed, kindness, etc. we have no senses well at least hearing, taste, sight, smell. I wouldn't say touch.
consciousness lives on any where there's energy, and energy is everywhere

That is why I often laugh at Christians who say the creator who is supposed to be a spirit (what science calls energy) feels wrath, jealousy, love etc. when these things are strictly attributes of sentient beings.

non-sentient as I know can't reason but they can react and proact out of awareness of their environment

Ok, Fair enough, I can agree with some of what you have said. . .I just want people to be clear when they say things and you have been able to do that. . .

mazaje:

It is mythology. . .It's no different from a christian that claimed he died went to heaven and saw his loved ones in white robes and floating in the clouds. . .What has the souls of ancestors protecting and guiding those that are alive got to do with reality?. . .Can it be objectively tested?. . .



There are dinosaur fossils available for all to see, micro evolution has been observed. . .Christians can't deny it, they deny macro evolution because it lacks credible evidence according to them, scientist insist that the principle guiding micro evolution is the same principle guiding macro evolution. . .




Full dinosaur fossils have been found like this one below. . .



Micor evolution have been observed, the principle of evolution has been used to make certain drugs, stars have been observed to be moving away from each other by space observatories etc. . .




I can not prove to you that Jesus is not presently in heaven siting on the right hand of god and guiding christians. .I can not also prove to you that the ancient Egyptian Pharos are not together with Ra Amun enjoying heavenly bliss. . .I don't have to bother with such mythologies. . .There is what we call reality. there is what we call mythology, fantasy and fiction. . .Egungun falls into the category of fiction and mythology. . .Even in science there is pseudo science and fringe science. . .

I never even mentioned egungun. Because doing that might seem too Yoruba-centric. But if u so interested in the technology of egungun I am nt the person to discuss that with. There are experts I could link you up with only if you are humble enough to actually take it serious and undergo your objective testing

is there evidence for planets outside our galaxy? that doesn't stop scientists from looking for them.
If scientists were like you they would have said "there's no evidence, it doesn't exist, this world we see with our eyes right around us is the only thing that exist"
science would be nothing today without search - which is among the baics of spirituality

The structure of mars was known to be made up of Metals, they named it after a Roman God of metals and wars

Helium was found to be the reason for the heat and colour of the sun they named it After the Greek God of sunlight

And you think ancient spiritualities got nothing to offer??

All that science would ever find evidence to, has been told by the ancients.

Even the far away milky way and Orion stars was known by the dogon people of Mali long before your evidence was found by science.

The name Orion was given by ancient greeks it wasn't science until modern scientists said they found evidence.

so why attack everything ancient when modern has never posed to prove ancient wrong??

Spirituality is a profound source of science bro, you cannot understand the universe without following the basics of spirituality


Btw my questions were; have you have seen a dinosaur fossil, have u ever observed a genus evolve? Have you ever observed a bang of photons?

You are basically believing what you have read but there's a reason you believe it isn't there?

mazaje:
I personally do not follow that line of thought that having a before life is necessary to have an after life, i just stated the fact that the afterlife is a man made construct and idea, that is why there are different versions of the afterlife based on the thoughts, fantasies and ideas of those that created the afterlife concept. . .

Good so you do not think that a pre-life necessitates an afterlife and secondly you believe that there is no such thing as an afterlife anyway.

Continuing . . . . . so I asked you why one ought to live morally if the outcome is the same for both the moral and the immoral. This was your reply:

Because it will make our stay here or earth worthwhile. . .

I don't know what you understand "worthwhile" to mean but if the final outcome is the same regardless of what you do, then you cannot say that one action was worthwhile and the other wasn't worthwhile since both ended in the same outcome.

To give you an analogy, assuming that whether or not you work hard in the office, you will still not be paid at the end of the month regardless of whether you do an excellent or a shoddy job then there is no way one can say that working hard is more worthwhile than lazing about.

The reason humans do anything is because we look towards a future outcome. Take away that future outcome and immediately, there is no point in continuing with the present action. If you can't understand this basic concept then I doubt that I can really help you.

...This life is the only one we know of, we don't know of any other one, we can only conceive or have ideas of another one, since this is the only one we know and have experienced then its up to us to make living a worth while experience. . .

How so? How do you make living a worthwhile experience?

The idea of an afterlife doesn't help us here at all. . .

Actually it does because an expected outcome is what makes the way we choose to live our lives worth the effort

If we strife for peace we all enjoy and blissful life, if we don't we all suffer, pains and agony. . .

This is simply not true. In a time of war, only the weak suffer, the strongest flourish and that is enough incentive for the strong to strive for war.

That is enough reason for us to pursue peace and see to it that we live moral lives. . .

And I have equally shown you enough reason to strive for war. By living immoral lives and robbing others we can become very rich and prolong our lives with our wealth. As long as we are clever enough not to get caught, we can live long luxurious lives while the goody-two shoes die of hunger blaming their woes on us.

The society flourishes when there is peace and when every one lives moral lives. . .

False. The society flourishes after the strong have eliminated the weak. Besides, why should I care put the society's well-being before my own since we all die and rot anyway?

I am staying very much on point. . .I just don't have time for philosophical sophism. . .

Call it whatever you like, but if you are not able to demonstrate an understanding of the most basic implications of an afterlife. I see no point in proceeding to discuss with you advanced details of the various ways the afterlife is understood.

As you would have noticed again, I have not bothered to respond to your off-point monologue.

macof:

mr anony this really is funny as you have just implied that having a good afterlife is judged by living morally not the belief in Christ

Wrong, that is not what I said at all. Here is what I said;

a) If an afterlife does not exist then man really has no actual moral obligations i.e It is not reasonable to act morally

b) If an afterlife exists and it's outcome depends on the way the present life is lived, then there are actual moral obligations and hence it is reasonable to act morally.

GeneralShepherd: How is stone conscious? Does it respond to stimuli?

I hope you do realize that a response to stimuli and consciousness are in totally different categories. For instance, a mango tree responds to stimuli but is not necessarily conscious. A dreaming man is conscious of his dreams though he may not necessarily respond to external stimuli.


P/s: I am still awaiting a response to my comments on the first page of this thread here:

https://www.nairaland.com/1886955/when-die#26034521

I would like us to have a conversation on the points I raised. I hope you didn't mention me in the OP only to have me ignored.

striktlymi: ^^^You want Apatheist to express his own thoughts?

You would have better luck asking him to stay under water for 1 hour without surfacing.

I do hope I am wrong about that dude.

Apatheist:

Yet three pages later, he still hasn't expressed an original thought of his own concerning the issues he is addressing. Dear Striktlymi, It is looking like you were right after all.

MrAnony1:
I hope you do realize that a response to stimuli and consciousness are in totally different categories. For instance, a mango tree responds to stimuli but is not necessarily conscious. A dreaming man is conscious of his dreams though he may not necessarily respond to external stimuli.
P/s: I am still awaiting a response to my comments on the first page of this thread here:
https://www.nairaland.com/1886955/when-die#26034521
I would like us to have a conversation on the points I raised. I hope you didn't mention me in the OP only to have me ignored.

False. A tree is conscious. A sleeping man is semi-conscious. A sleeping man can still respond to stimuli in his semi-conscious state

MrAnony1:
You seem to lean towards the belief that it is more likely the case that there is no such thing as an afterlife because you are not conscious of any events that happened before you were born (let's refer to this as a "pre-life" ).

1. I hope you do realize that it doesn't follow that if you don't have a pre-life, you won't have an afterlife. (If you don't realize this, please take some time to explain to me why you think it follows).

2. Now that said, your question leaves us with two possibilities:

a. An afterlife exists
b. An afterlife does not exist.

3. I will argue that:

a) If an afterlife does not exist then man really has no actual moral obligations i.e It is not reasonable to act morally

b) If an afterlife exists and it's outcome depends on the way the present life is lived, then there are actual moral obligations and hence it is reasonable to act morally.

4). Expanding upon the above....

a. If there is no afterlife, then there are no consequences for the sort of life you choose to live i.e. whether you spend your life taking pleasure in smashing the skulls of innocent babies or whether you spend your life taking pleasure in caring for the helpless little ones, in the end you will just die and rot forget everything and eventually be forgotten. There is no way we can objectively say that one pleasure is better than the other. Therefore there is no reason why one needs to act morally.

b. If on the other hand, there is an afterlife and our present life determines it's outcome, then there is an objective way in which we ought to live this present life and hence there is a reason to act morally.

5). Now I must point out that the above does not prove that there is or isn't an afterlife however it shows that the absence of an afterlife is not consistent with the presence of moral values. So if you believe that there are moral duties that we ought to adhere to, then an afterlife would be consistent with such a belief.

If on the other hand you don't believe in an afterlife, then I struggle to see how you can make a case for why we ought to live morally especially if we can derive pleasure from doing evil deeds. (If you think the two are rationally compatible then you may need to explain to me how so)

Even though I have atheist leanings, I don't actually have a view. I honestly wish to understand other people's views.

MrAnony1:
I hope you do realize that a response to stimuli and consciousness are in totally different categories. For instance, a mango tree responds to stimuli but is not necessarily conscious. A dreaming man is conscious of his dreams though he may not necessarily respond to external stimuli.


P/s: I am still awaiting a response to my comments on the first page of this thread here:

https://www.nairaland.com/1886955/when-die#26034521

I would like us to have a conversation on the points I raised. I hope you didn't mention me in the OP only to have me ignored.

Annony, I really don't agree that a stone is conscious. Why? because a stone can and will never exhibit the characteristics of a living thing.

A non-living thing can never be conscious

MrAnony1:

Wrong, that is not what I said at all. Here is what I said;

a) If an afterlife does not exist then man really has no actual moral obligations i.e It is not reasonable to act morally

b) If an afterlife exists and it's outcome depends on the way the present life is lived, then there are actual moral obligations and hence it is reasonable to act morally.

a) If heaven/hell has no effect on your morality (you are not good just because of heaven/hell) how then can you say that the afterlife has effect on moral obligations?

b) IF....it is a big if.

TheBigUrban2:
False. A tree is conscious. A sleeping man is semi-conscious. A sleeping man can still respond to stimuli in his semi-conscious state

Will I be representing your view correctly if I say that you believe that a response to stimuli is an indicator of consciousness and where a response to stimuli is not found, the subject in question is therefore unconscious i.e. you believe a stone is unconscious because it doesn't respond to stimuli while a plant is conscious because it responds to stimuli.

GeneralShepherd:

Annony, I really don't agree that a stone is conscious. Why? because a stone can and will never exhibit the characteristics of a living thing.

A non-living thing can never be conscious

Will I be representing your view correctly if I say that you believe that a response to stimuli is an indicator of consciousness and where a response to stimuli is not found, the subject in question is therefore unconscious i.e. you believe a stone is unconscious because it doesn't respond to stimuli while a plant is conscious because it responds to stimuli i.e. you believe that consciousness depends on whether or not a thing is living?

MrAnony1:
Will I be representing your view correctly if I say that you believe that a response to stimuli is an indicator of consciousness and where a response to stimuli is not found, the subject in question is therefore unconscious i.e. you believe a stone is unconscious because it doesn't respond to stimuli while a plant is conscious because it responds to stimuli i.e. you believe that consciousness depends on whether or not a thing is living?

A non-living thing is not conscious

MrAnony1:
Will I be representing your view correctly if I say that you believe that a response to stimuli is an indicator of consciousness and where a response to stimuli is not found, the subject in question is therefore unconscious i.e. you believe a stone is unconscious because it doesn't respond to stimuli while a plant is conscious because it responds to stimuli.

Consciousness is a state of awareness.

Being conscious is far more than reacting to stimuli. Being self aware requires voluntary actions. A freshly dead body can react to stimuli eg, a snake head biting a finger put in the mouth even after the body has been severed.



A stone isnt self aware. A tree is. They bend to sunlight and some even eat insects.