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Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine - Politics (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by JuanDeDios: 12:29pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: What is the function of Lagos State Attorney General? My friend stop citing the USA laws here and focus on Nigeria laws. Is Nigeria an extension of the USA? Beside take a look at Section 222 of the Criminal Law of Lagos State
Ok.
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by NgeneUkwenu(f): 12:36pm On Sep 21, 2014
berem: Who told you that?

Nne, it has nothing with the Federal government. It is within the confines of Lagos state government to initiate criminal proceeding against any crime committed within the state!
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 12:39pm On Sep 21, 2014
NgeneUkwenu:

Nne, it has nothing with the Federal government. It is within the confines of Lagos state government to initiate criminal proceeding against any crime committed within the state!
So who's jurisdiction is it to send condolence message? That's my concern.
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Rawani: 12:44pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: Up till today we have not heard nor read any official statement from the LASG to know government position and their next line of action. I am begining to assume that Gov Fash is somewhat overrated. The amazing aspect is that Fashola is supposed to be a Senior Lawyer/SAN

I doubt he lacks the capacity to prosecute TBJ, however I have a lingering feeling his hands are being tied by some powers that be, while that is not excusing his docility with the whole issue, it's a good reason to give him the benefit of doubt. For now.
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by vivalavida(m): 12:44pm On Sep 21, 2014
berem: So who's jurisdiction is it to send condolence message? That's my concern.

Liar Mohammed
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by NgeneUkwenu(f): 12:45pm On Sep 21, 2014
berem: So who's jurisdiction is it to send condolence message? That's my concern.

Lagos State government and Federal Govt ofcourse. But the main thing is, issuing a strong worded statement condemning TB joshua and it's church for obstructing early intervention by spirited Nigerians like myself and other rescue teams who could have saved more lives, were they allowed into the complex early enough.m
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by free2ryhme: 12:46pm On Sep 21, 2014
so to send condolence now is within a jurisdiction limit ?

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by NgeneUkwenu(f): 12:46pm On Sep 21, 2014
Rawani:

I doubt he lacks the capacity to prosecute TBJ, however I have a lingering feeling his hands are being tied by some powers that be, while that is not excusing his docility with the whole issue, it's a good reason to give him the benefit of doubt. For now.

Why do you think so?
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by tinkinjow: 12:53pm On Sep 21, 2014
This is how China use to get the brunt of the western media. Now if China blinks they cower

E dey pain dem say naija is finally breaking those chains. Our march has just begun and no nation can stop us
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Rawani: 12:54pm On Sep 21, 2014
NgeneUkwenu:

Why do you think so?

To put it simply, because he is a seasoned lawyer, a Senior Advocate in particular who knows his onions and would not be at a loss as to how to prosecute the offender(s) in this case. He is also a progressive with no patience for sentiments and is result oriented. He has also been particular about building safety in his administration, and has developed several regulatory measures, certification requirements and response systems to avoid and manage the seemingly rampant cases of building collapse in LS. These form part of the reason why i believe his inaction so far is not as a result of lack of capacity.

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by focus7: 12:55pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: This is a prima facie case of involuntary manslaughter contrary to Section 222 of the Criminal Law of Lagos State

The barcanista

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 12:56pm On Sep 21, 2014
Rawani:

I doubt he lacks the capacity to prosecute TBJ, however I have a lingering feeling his hands are being tied by some powers that be, while that is not excusing his docility with the whole issue, it's a good reason to give him the benefit of doubt. For now.
We have waited for ove one week yet no official statement from him. If his "hands are tied" then why didn't Tinubu's hands get tied in 2006/7? Remember that earlier this year, there was also a case/allegation against Pastor Sign Fireman that has to do with the pastor's involvement in ritual. Today, fireman is a freeman. He was neither tried nor properly investigated by the justice ministry of Lagos State.
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 12:59pm On Sep 21, 2014
Rawani:

To put it simply, because he is a seasoned lawyer, a Senior Advocate in particular who knows his onions and would not be at a loss as to how to prosecute the offender(s) in this case. He is also a progressive with no patience for sentiments and is result oriented. He has also been particular about building safety in his administration, and has developed several regulatory measures, certification requirements and response systems to avoid and manage the seemingly rampant cases of building collapse in LS. These form part of the reason why i believe his inaction so far is not as a result of lack of capacity.
So you mean we should be patient with him?
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Rawani: 1:04pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: We have waited for ove one week yet no official statement from him. If his "hands are tied" then why didn't Tinubu's hands get tied in 2006/7? Remember that earlier this year, there was also a case/allegation against Pastor Sign Fireman that has to do with the pastor's involvement in ritual. Today, fireman is a freeman. He was neither tried nor properly investigated by the justice ministry of Lagos State.

Let's keep our eyes peeled for his next action, it would be sad for him to soil his reputation in an attempt to shield a questionable man. What possible motive however, is there for BRF to to allow justice to be perverted by shielding the likes of Fireman and TBJ? Quite puzzling I tell you.

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 1:05pm On Sep 21, 2014
focus7: The barcanista
oga mi
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Rawani: 1:07pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: So you mean we should be patient with him?

I'm saying we should give him the benefit of doubt as this is a delicate diplomatic issue, which requires co-ordination of several offices to handle. There is no proven or supposed motive why he would deliberately put a spanner in the works. Or am I missing something?

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 1:16pm On Sep 21, 2014
Rawani:

I'm saying we should give him the benefit of doubt as this is a delicate diplomatic issue, which requires co-ordination of several offices to handle. There is no proven or supposed motive why he would deliberately put a spanner in the works. Or am I missing something?
You are on point but it is just so sad that nobody knows the official position of Lagos State. Like you said, let's give him the benefit of doubt... But it may be that he doesn't want to offend a section of the "christian" community which is pathetic

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Rawani: 1:24pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: You are on point but it is just so sad that nobody knows the official position of Lagos State. Like you said, let's give him the benefit of doubt... But it may be that he doesn't want to offend a section of the "christian" community which is pathetic.
Beyond pathetic. That would however be assuming that the entire Christian community is behind him. I for one, have never taken TBJ serious.

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Lordlexyy: 1:34pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: This is one area I respect the Tinubu's administration as regards the Justice System of Lagos State. When Emeka Ezeugo aka Rev King was alleged to have had in hand in the murder of his church member and another attempted murder, despite his popolarity and "god" status his followere accorded him(still accords him), he was arrested and prosecuted in 2006. He was convicted in January 2007 despite that there was election around. Today he's awaiting the hangman courtesy the "no nonsense prosecutors" under Bola Tinubu. Fashola must learn from his Predecessor and act now and fast!!! Otherwise, I will classify him as clueless and incompetent.
But where exactly do you draw the line between an accident and a criminal behaviour. We all know what happened at the synagogue could happen anywhere. In fact, cases like this abound in Lagos without anyone charge for it. It could be the unprofessional handling for the project or the typographic nature of Lagos soil. But outrightly calling for T.b arrest is a no no. The Lasg can put measures in place by monitoring construction of storey buildings with the best professional handlings.
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 1:39pm On Sep 21, 2014
Rawani:
Beyond pathetic. That would however be assuming that the entire Christian community is behind him. I for one, have never taken TBJ serious.
I am a firm believer of separating the Church from the State. The Case of Synagogue is very annoying. Instead of the man TBJ to commensurate with the surviving victims and the families of the late victims, he was busy posting video accusing "BH" and later "APC". Then he went further to pay a whopping 750k to journalists for them to spin the case. His offence has gone beyond involuntary manslaughter, if I was a officer/legal adviser in APC I will sue him for defamation. If he was ordinary citizen, I am sure hed be cooling off in Kirikiri mazimum prison or Ikoyi Prison under "Awaiting Trial". I just want to know the position of LASG anyway!!!

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Rawani: 1:44pm On Sep 21, 2014
Lordlexyy: But where exactly do you draw the line between an accident and a criminal behaviour. We all know what happened at the synagogue could happen anywhere.

The key word here is Negligence. If the building collapse is proven to be as a result of negligence on the part of TBJ, as could be inferred from reports of unapproved floors being added to the building, then he is criminally liable.

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 1:53pm On Sep 21, 2014
Lordlexyy: But where exactly do you draw the line between an accident and a criminal behaviour. We all know what happened at the synagogue could happen anywhere. In fact, cases like this abound in Lagos without anyone charge for it. It could be the unprofessional handling for the project or the typographic nature of Lagos soil. But outrightly calling for T.b arrest is a no no. The Lasg can put measures in place by monitoring construction of storey buildings with the best professional handlings.
Thank you. There is a difference between "Act of God" otherwise known as Natural Disaster and "Act of Man" otherwise known as disaster as a result of Negligence. In this case, it is "Act of Man".
1. The Said building was approved to be 4storeys. TBJ was making it 7.
2. The Extra 3 building were neither approved by the State Ministry of Environment nor Ministry of Housing.
3. They disregard the law and went ahead with the "building". Which is negligence on the part of the Church led by TBJ
4. The result of their action led to the building collapse which caused the death of over/almost a hundred people(100). This is Manslaughter.
5. It will be difficult to prove that he intentionally did it to cause death of lives, hence, his case falls under "Involuntary Manslaughter" which is liable to Life in Prisonment(with hard labor) if convicted.
6. Add to the injury, he called a group of journalists and "gave" them 750k for "fuel" and also to spin the whole thing. This is against the ICPC law and the penal code. That is "Bribery". Should ICPC and the Police decide to press charges(Which they Should), he will add to his years in jail(if convicted).
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 2:04pm On Sep 21, 2014
Rawani:

The key word here is Negligence. If the building collapse is proven to be as a result of negligence on the part of TBJ, as could be inferred from reports of unapproved floors being added to the building, then he is criminally liable.
Rightly said
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Rawani: 2:12pm On Sep 21, 2014
barcanista: Rightly said

I learnt that a similar incident happened in China years ago, and it was just a walkway that collapsed in a mall killing dozens of people. Poor enforcement of building codes and substandard practices meant over 50 people, from the regulatory authority to the engineering team, were executed after being found guilty of negligence. TBJ should count himself lucky to have such an inept President that should not be seen hobnobbing with him, as it could be misinterpreted that he could be biased in investigations, and I doubt if he will receive more than a tap on the wrist for his alleged offence.

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 2:23pm On Sep 21, 2014
Rawani:

I learnt that a similar incident happened in China years ago, and it was just a walkway that collapsed in a mall killing dozens of people. Poor enforcement of building codes and substandard practices meant over 50 people, from the regulatory authority to the engineering team, were executed after being found guilty of negligence. TBJ should count himself lucky to have such an inept President that should not be seen hobnobbing with him, as it could be misinterpreted that he could be biased in investigations, and I doubt if he will receive more than a tap on the wrist for his alleged offence.
I am disappointed in Jonathan(weLl its a usual thing now), I don't see the motive behind his condolence visit to TBJ instead of the victims and their families. TBJ deserve no condolence. A serious President will ask the LASG to brief him on preliminary report so as to bring every perpetrator and conspirator to justice. This is not a time for photo ops and crocodile condolence which won't have any effect on the victims. Our President in his usual manner is hobnobbing and posing for Camera with TBJ. Fash should not disappoint his fans. In most countries in Asia, Manslaughter whether voluntary or involuntary is death penalty. In North Korea not too long ago similar thing happened, everyone that had role to play were all executed.

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by Nobody: 2:33pm On Sep 21, 2014
free2ryhme: so to send condolence now is within a jurisdiction limit ?
grin grin grin
Walahi fa, u ma boloda no well grin grin grin
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by nuclearboy(m): 3:19pm On Sep 21, 2014
I doubt they'll do anything about this issue aside huff and puff awhile then allow it die

APC wants Lagos 2015 and Oga Jo wants votes for the presidency 2015 and thus will leave it to Fashola. If Lagos was a PDP state, APC would have gone to town screaming bloody murder by now and if it wasn't an international incident requiring federal attention, PDP would be crying too like APC sodomized it.

Just goes to show these leaders are all the same - only reason I'll stand with APC 2015 is so PDP gets kicked out. Then I support PDP, then APC etc "until" our politicians start fighting to please us knowing we can kick them out

All bastards angry

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Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by helpee(m): 3:23pm On Sep 21, 2014
Let the state govt conduct their investigation pls!! So all of you expect Fashola to just criminalise Joshua just like that without getting the details simply because you don't like Joshua. Why must we be quick to send condolence to SA? Is it the same SA that broke diplomatic protocol by announcing its own casualty figure different from NEMA? Nigerians equally died in d rubbles. SA is using everything to play politics with Nigeria and if I were Jonathan I will not specifically send any condolence to SA alone but to all d victims. If Joshua is guilty after diligent investigation he should be dealt with not because we hate him but cos he is guilty. Even if d plane that flew close to d building didn't cause d collapse then we also owe Nigerians and Joshua explanation as to the true mission of d plane. Investigation must not be biased.
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by JuanDeDios: 3:38pm On Sep 21, 2014
helpee: Let the state govt conduct their investigation pls!! So all of you expect Fashola to just criminalise Joshua just like that without getting the details simply because you don't like Joshua. Why must we be quick to send condolence to SA? Is it the same SA that broke diplomatic protocol by announcing its own casualty figure different from NEMA? Nigerians equally died in d rubbles. SA is using everything to play politics with Nigeria and if I were Jonathan I will not specifically send any condolence to SA alone but to all d victims. If Joshua is guilty after diligent investigation he should be dealt with not because we hate him but cos he is guilty. Even if d plane that flew close to d building didn't cause d collapse then we also owe Nigerians and Joshua explanation as to the true mission of d plane. Investigation must not be biased.
@bolded
How many? Has our government told us? - as in so-and-so number died, comprising so-and-so men, women, kids, Nigerians, Ghanaians, South Africans, etc? Yet you expect a serious government to keep quiet.
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by JuanDeDios: 3:39pm On Sep 21, 2014
nuclearboy: I doubt they'll do anything about this issue aside huff and puff awhile then allow it die

APC wants Lagos 2015 and Oga Jo wants votes for the presidency 2015 and thus will leave it to Fashola. If Lagos was a PDP state, APC would have gone to town screaming bloody murder by now and if it wasn't an international incident requiring federal attention, PDP would be crying too like APC sodomized it.

Just goes to show these leaders are all the same - only reason I'll stand with APC 2015 is so PDP gets kicked out. Then I support PDP, then APC etc "until" our politicians start fighting to please us knowing we can kick them out

All bastards angry
Touche!
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by helpee(m): 3:56pm On Sep 21, 2014
JuanDeDios:
@bolded
How many? Has our government told us? - as in so-and-so number died, comprising so-and-so men, women, kids, Nigerians, Ghanaians, South Africans, etc? Yet you expect a serious government to keep quiet.
why would they tell you when investigation is still ongoing? Some may still be trapped....some may simply be unaccounted for yet. Tell me precisely how many people died in world trade centres? How many are Nigerians? We are talking of 13yrs!!!. Which responsible govt are u talking about? A responsible govt will liase ist with d home govt b4 talking rubbish. Have u forgotten that SA has a Nigerian ambassador who should have gone to visit Joshua for a ist hand information b4 their illiterate president started saying rubbish. Responsible govt my foot
Re: Blood On Their Hands- The Times Magazine by JuanDeDios: 6:31pm On Sep 21, 2014
helpee: why would they tell you when investigation is still ongoing? Some may still be trapped....some may simply be unaccounted for yet. Tell me precisely how many people died in world trade centres? How many are Nigerians? We are talking of 13yrs!!!. Which responsible govt are u talking about? A responsible govt will liase ist with d home govt b4 talking rubbish. Have u forgotten that SA has a Nigerian ambassador who should have gone to visit Joshua for a ist hand information b4 their illiterate president started saying rubbish. Responsible govt my foot
So you expect "investigation" to be completed before they tell you how many people are feared dead simply before people might be under the rubles? Well, based on some of the things you wrote it seems you are poorly informed. A few moments after the WTC went down figures started coming out. The figures were later revised based on new knowledge. At the end there was a definite statement on the number KNOWN to have died with the admission that there may be unknown ones. On the next anniversary of 9-11, listen out and you will hear the NAME of EVERY known VICTIM read out. Did you get that? The NAME of every victim.

The media reported that Joshua has failed to disclose the number of people who were there, much less release the guest list. If you're telling me that if your relative was there you would have relied on Joshua for good information despite the manner he has conducted himself so far, I say carry go.

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