Incest laws could be scrapped in Germany after the government's ethics council said sex between brothers and sisters should be legal and is a 'fundamental right'.
The council recommended that the right of 'adult siblings to sexual self-determination' was more important then the 'abstract idea of protection of the family'.
It comes after the case of Patrick Stuebing, who was jailed for more than three years after having four children - two of which are disabled  - with his sister Susan Karolewski.
The German Ethics Council has suggested that sex between brothers and sisters should be legalised
Stuebing was put up for adoption as a toddler and only met his sister when he was 24 and she was 16. He was imprisoned for incest in 2008.
He made an unsuccessful appeal to the European Court of Human Rights in 2012 over his right to a family life - as he and Ms Karolewski were split up and three of their children were taken into care. The youngest was allowed to remain with Ms Karolewski.
The German Ethics Council said in a statement that 'criminal law is not the appropriate means to preserve a social taboo', adding that the risk of disability to children is enough to warrant incest being illegal.

the suggestion of decriminalising incest comes after the case of Patrick Stuebing, who was jailed for more than three years after having four children - two of which are disabled - with his sister Susan Karolewski
'Neither the consequences for the family nor the possibility for descendants from such incestuous relationships can justify a ban under criminal law,' it said.
'Incest between siblings appears to be very rare in Western societies according to the available data but those affected describe how difficult their situation is in light of the threat of punishment.
THE INCESTUOUS RELATIONSHIP WHICH COULD CHANGE THE LAW 
Patrick Stuebing, born in Leipzig, Germany in 1977, was fostered at the age of three after being attacked with a knife by his alcoholic father, and did not meet his mother or sister again until he was 23.
He says his relationship with Susan Karolewski became incestuous six months after their mother died from a heart attack in 2001, and Ms Karolewski gave birth to their first child in October of that year, when she was 16.
Two of their children have severe mental and physical disabilities, and another has a heart condition which required a transplant. 
Stuebing was sentenced to 10 moths in prison after his second incest conviction, and then a further two and a half years for his third conviction. 
'They feel their fundamental freedoms have been violated and are forced into secrecy or to deny their love.
'The Ethics Council has been told of cases where half-siblings did not grow up together and have only met in their adult lives,' The Independent reported it saying.
Despite saying that sex between brothers and sisters should be made legal, the council recommended that sex between parents and children should remain against the law. 
It is believed that incest increases the risk of children being born with disabilities, but the Ethics Council dismissed this as an argument for it being illegal, saying that couples with genetic defects are not banned from having children.
However, Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU party have been quick to push away the idea of legalising incest.
Spokeswoman Elisabeth Winkelmeier-Becker said that it would give out the wrong signal, telling Deutsche Welle: 'Abolishing criminal punishment against incestuous actions within a family would go completely against protecting the undisturbed development of children.'
Around two to four per cent of Germans have had 'incestuous experiences', according to an estimate by the Max Planck Institute reported by The Telegraph.
Incest is illegal in the UK and most of Europe, though sex between consenting adults who are related is legal in France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Luxembourg and The Netherlands.

http://www.caribbeanfevercommunity.com/m/blogpost?id=2663233%3ABlogPost%3A1642388

i don't even know what to comment

They are signs of end time, my people shine ur eyes oo

Abomination! Tufiakwa!!

Edikan..

This is what you get when everybody begins to claim 'rights'. Anyone can come up with anything and just refer to fundamental human rights. Oh yeah, it's a free world they say. #crazyworld#

TV01, Ms. EnlightenedSoul, please.

population drive by all means. with a population of 80.7 million people and a landmass which 34% is either forested or farmland. they are just looking for all means to populate the land. deutscheland kein gut sha.

Let us distabilised moralities and see whether we can withstand the fall-out !!

God is watching in HD !!

Bestiality, Feminism, homosexuality, transgender, gender equality, pedophilia, incest etc are the tools the devil wants to use to tear down God's creation. Some silly feminists on nairaland won't comment on this thread cos they know they are part of the conspiracy.

The moment they endorse this law, nigerians wud wnt to do thesame, the way they re crying for feminism here esp the ladies becos to them everything about d western culture is good after all is all human right, equality, etc. Nonsence. SATAN AT WORK

pentagonal: population drive by all means. with a population of 80.7 million people and a landmass which 34% is either forested or farmland. they are just looking for all means to populate the land. deutscheland kein gut sha.

Can you read?

What about the kids that could arise from such intimate acts?
What happened to their right not to be born deformed or percusors of lineal deformation?

Left to me,
If they must have sex,then they should agree to sterilization. So that their intimate unions begins and end with them and doesn't affect the next generation.

Win win. Everyone's rights protected.

cococandy: What about the kids that could arise from sex intimate acts?
What happened to their right not to be born deformed or percusors of lineal deformation?

Left to me,
If they must have sex,then they should agree to sterilization. So that their intimate unions begins and end with them and doesn't affect the next generation.

For the reasons you have mentioned and some others, the German government has harshly criticized the ethics council for even thinking of such nonsense.

As they rightly should.

As much as everyone's right should be protected,if in the process of exercising such right,another person is affected negatively,then such rights should be forfeited or measures put in place to ensure that they don't affect the next person.

That's the only way order can be maintained.

carefreewannabe:

For the reasons you have mentioned and some others, the German government has harshly criticized the ethics council for even thinking of such nonsense.

cococandy: As they rightly should.

As much as everyone's right should be protected,if in the process of exercising such right,another person is affected negatively,then such rights should be forfeited or measures put in place to ensure that they don't affect the next person.

That's the only way order can be maintained.

Exactly.

carefreewannabe:

For the reasons you have mentioned and some others, the German government has harshly criticized the ethics council for even thinking of such nonsense.

It's not nonsense if the vulnerable kids are somehow protected, especially by finding a way of not being birthed. Everybody does have a right to sexval freedom, wouldn't you agree?

If what you say about the German government is true, they're only playing ostrich. Legal iincest will become a reality whether or not they want it to.

freshdude2: It's not nonsense if the vulnerable kids are somehow protected, especially by finding a way of not being birthed. Everybody does have a right to sexval freedom, wouldn't you agree?

No, I don't agree. If someone's sexual orientation causes harm to someone else (e.g. pedophilia, in.cest), then it should NOT be accepted in the name od sexval freedom.

If what you say about the German government is true, they're only playing ostrich. Legal iincest will become a reality whether or not they want it to.

Says who and on what grounds?

And it's not me who says such about the German government but the article itself and plenty of others on the Internet. Go and check it for yourself.

Politicians from the two biggest leading parties have harshly condemned the council's suggestion.

carefreewannabe:

No, I don't agree. If someone's sexual orientation causes harm to someone else (e.g. pedophilia, in.cest), then it should NOT be accepted in the name of sexval freedom.



Says who and on what grounds?

Iincest in this case is between two consenting adults. The only one to be hurt are the kids borne out of such
relationships and if government or their parents can guarantee that there'd be no children to be had then why stop them from pursuing happiness? That's blatant hypocrisy when one considers the strides LGBTs have made in the fight for sexval sovereignty.

carefreewannabe:
Politicians from the two biggest leading parties have harshly condemned the council's suggestion.

Again, that's hypocrisy. If two men or two women can legally get it on in German why stop siblings. Is iincest any more disgusting than homosexvality?!

TribalEAST: Bestiality, Feminism, homosexuality, transgender, gender equality, pedophilia, incest etc are the tools the devil wants to use to tear down God's creation. Some silly feminists on nairaland won't comment on this thread cos they know they are part of the conspiracy.

Just wanted to point out that you have said feminism so adding gender equality is a bit redundant don't u think?

Pedophila is a crime everywhere in case u don't know nobody is for it.

The fact that you are intimidated by feminists shows ur low self esteem, feminism is a conspiracy yes, a conspiracy to teach men especially African men that women are not doormats or foot stools and we have a mind of our own that surpasses some of you all.

I never considered myself a feminist till I joined Nairaland and then suddenly my opinions are considered feministic. If that is the case then yea I'm a feminist and proud

freshdude2: TV01, Ms. EnlightenedSoul, please.

I don't think my views on this would in any way be unclear. Please call Sis' Carefreewannabe, she resides in Deutscheland !

It's wrong...but still not as diordered as two men or two women. And if two men or two women are allowed children - evenif engineered to a degree - why should an incestuous couple be denied - evenif they have to engineer to a degree?

cococandy: Win win. Everyone's rights protected.

You make an "a priori" assumption of a "right".


TV

freshdude2: .
Again, that's hypocrisy. If two men or two women can legally get it on in German why stop siblings. Is iincest any more disgusting than homosexvality?!

Yes it is way more disgusting.

They are of the same blood come on even if they don't get kids from it it is still wrong , its like saying if a mother loves her son she can get it on with him after all he is a consenting adult, I mean come on there is a line, for homosexuality I don't really care cause its their orientation people have diff kinks but like I said there is a line

TV01:
I don't think my views on this would in any way be unclear. Please call Sis' Carefreewannabe, she resides in Deutscheland !

It's wrong...but still not as diordered as two men or two women. And if two men or two women are allowed children - evenif engineered to a degree - why should an incestuous couple be denied - evenif they have to engineer to a degree?


You make an "a priori" assumption of a "right".


TV

Hehehe. Thanks for your time and input. Appreciated as always.

freshdude2: Iincest in this case is between two consenting adults. The only one to be hurt are the kids borne out of such
relationships and if government or their parents can guarantee that there'd be no children to be had then why stop them from pursuing happiness?

You have just mentioned one of the arguments the ethics council stated when they made this suggestion to change the law that makes in.cest a punishable offense.

First of all, if kids have to suffer for a life time because their parents acted in an irresponsible way, then it's reason enough to make it illegal.

Secondly, if in.cest was legalized then it would open doors to child abuse in families. The German government said that families have to be seen as a place of protection for children and the law and societal norms have to do ensure that it is. Leagalizing in.cest would open doors to child abuse in families. It would make it more acceptable as a side effect.

Thirdly, if two consenting adults decide to have s.ex with each other behind closed doors, then nobody will know and they can "pursue their happiness".

Fourthly, the siblings who triggered off this discussion had four children together because they wanted to "pursue happiness." The government can't make sure that such couples won't take it a step further and they cannot be sterilized by force.

Fifthly, se.x between siblings is not a se.xual orientation but rather a coincidence of two people who feel attracted to one another and see nothing wrong with it. People fall in and people fall out of love. It is not that they can't find happiness elsewhere if they are forbidden to sleep with one another. Many people have to find a new partner if the partner they desire is not available for one reason or another.

Last but not least, the cost of possible kids coming from such unions will have to be carried by the society as a whole. Germany is a welfare state. The kids have to get special health treatment and possibly special education.

That's blatant hypocrisy when one considers the strides LGBTs have made in the fight for sexval sovereignty.

That's a different topic.

Again, that's hypocrisy. If two men or two women can legally get it on in German why stop siblings. Is iincest any more disgusting than homosexvality?!

I knew people would want to discuss homo.sexuality in this context. They are free to do so. I am not taking part in these debates.

If you want to discuss in.cest with me, you know how to find me but without engaging me in debates on homo.sexuality, please.

TV01:
I don't think my views on this would in any way be unclear. Please call Sis' Carefreewannabe, she resides in Deutscheland !

It's wrong...but still not as diordered as two men or two women. And if two men or two women are allowed children - evenif engineered to a degree - why should an incestuous couple be denied - evenif they have to engineer to a degree?


You make an "a priori" assumption of a "right".


TV

Sister Carefreewannabe is at it.

She loves Deutschland.

Babygal4eva:

Yes it is way more disgusting.

They are of the same blood come on even if they don't get kids from it it is still wrong , its like saying if a mother loves her son she can get it on with him after all he is a consenting adult, I mean come on there is a line, for homosexuality I don't really care cause its their orientation people have diff kinks but like I said there is a line

Well then, that would be a matter of opinion, wouldn't you agree?! And since we are in the realm of personal opinion, I'd rate same sexx as more disgusting than sibling sex, of course of different genders as there's the possibility of two brothers having the hots for each other.

freshdude2: Well then, that would be a matter of opinion, wouldn't you agree?! And since we are in the realm of personal opinion, I'd rate same sexx as more disgusting than sibling sex, of course of different genders as there's the possibility of two brothers having the hots for each other.

And if they say siblings can do it then the gays will come and cry civil rights of brothers and sisters too, ok I change my mind the two are equally ekky, now I'm going to read my bible to cleanse my mind of what I just imagined

freshdude2: Well then, that would be a matter of opinion, wouldn't you agree?! And since we are in the realm of personal opinion, I'd rate same sexx as more disgusting than sibling sex, of course of different genders as there's the possibility of two brothers having the hots for each other.

I will ONLY say this much:

If disgust is a yardstick to pass bills, then I also want to make it illegal for old men to marry young girls.



I can't stand their view. Honestly.

carefreewannabe:

You have just mentioned one of the arguments the ethics council stated when they made this suggestion to change the law that makes in.cest a punishable offense.

First of all, if kids have to suffer for a life time because their parents acted in an irresponsible way, then it's reason enough to make it illegal.

First of all, who says children have to be born in iincest relationships. There are all sorts of solutions to this pseudo-conundrum like surrogacy and adoption.

carefreewannabe: Secondly, if in.cest was legalized then it would open doors to child abuse in families. The German government said that families have to be seen as a place of protection for children and the law and societal norms have to do ensure that it is. Leagalizing in.cest would open doors to child abuse in families. It would make it more acceptable as a side effect.

Same can be said of homosexx. Are you saying older brothers, cousins, uncles haven't molested young relatives with cases recorded?

carefreewannabe: Thirdly, if two consenting adults decide to have s.ex with each other behind closed doors, then nobody will know and they can "pursue their happiness".

Oh, it will be the town's business when they want to get married. Are you saying they shouldn't get married? And if not, how do they do so
when doing so constitutes a crime?

carefreewannabe: Fourthly, the siblings who triggered off this discussion had four children together because they wanted to "pursue happiness." The government can't make sure that such couples won't take it a step further and they cannot be sterilized by force.

Naivety. As with all things in life, a price must be paid. If it is established that their union would endanger their offpsring and by extension, the future of Germany, government could and would be wise to make sterilisation a requirement for iincestual relationships. They are the government afterall, the government can do anything.

Or, they could invest in research to mitigate the weaknesses of genetic disorders in such relationships.

carefree: Fifthly, se.x between siblings is not a se.xual orientation but rather a coincidence of two people who feel attracted to one another and see nothing wrong with it. People fall in and people fall out of love. It is not that they can't find happiness elsewhere if they are forbidden to sleep with one another. Many people have to find a new partner if the partner they desire is not available for one reason or another

Nobody cares whether or not it's an orientation. As it is, it's a violation of human rights considering the freedoms given to other sexxual deviants. This last point of yours is confusing as it is insulting to my intelligence. It is no valid point. Whether or not people fall in and/or out of love is nobody's cup of tea and definitely no reason to limit one's sexxual rights.

carefreewannabe: Last but not least, the cost of possible kids coming from such unions will have to be carried by the society as a whole. Germany is a welfare state. The kids have to get special health treatment and possibly special education.

Again, there's the option of legislation in favour of sterilisation or just plain old abortion. The kids don't have to be born.

carefreewannabe: That's a different topic.

Both well within the subject of sexxual preference, attraction and expression.

carefreewannabe: I knew people would want to discuss homo.sexuality in this context.

TB Joshua would be green with envy.

carefreewannabe: They are free to do so. I am not taking part in these debates.

of course. Ostrich-playing time.

carefreewannabe: If you want to discuss in.cest with me, you know how to find me but without engaging me in debates on homo.sexuality, please.

Sure, just as one could cook without using fire.

...am I right in thinking that the reasoning was - to parphrase - "incestuous couples should not be criminalised due to the disgust about them"?

Anyways, good to see CFW on fine form;

carefreewannabe:
First of all, if kids have to suffer for a life time because their parents acted in an irresponsible way, then it's reason enough to make it illegal.

They could simply 1, not have kids, 2, have any pregancies screened, or 3, have them "engineered like homosexuals do

carefreewannabe:
Secondly, if in.cest was legalized then it would open doors to child abuse in families. The German government said that families have to be seen as a place of protection for children and the law and societal norms have to do ensure that it is. Leagalizing in.cest would open doors to child abuse in families. It would make it more acceptable as a side effect.

Why would it open the door to child abuse? Or at least open it any further. Are you claiming there are a load of people refraining from child-abuse just because incest is not legal. Does it not happen now that incest is illegal

carefreewannabe:
Thirdly, if two consenting adults decide to have s.ex with each other behind closed doors, then nobody will know and they can "pursue their happiness".

That's how the gay one started - now we have to be ushers at their "weddings" or else !

carefreewannabe:
Fourthly, the siblings who triggered off this discussion had four children together because they wanted to "pursue happiness." The government can't make sure that such couples won't take it a step further and they cannot be sterilized by force.

And why should they be denied that right. As for children, see above. Plus, they may choose to be sterilised - I guess only one would need be !

carefreewannabe:
Fifthly, se.x between siblings is not a se.xual orientation but rather a coincidence of two people who feel attracted to one another and see nothing wrong with it. People fall in and people fall out of love. It is not that they can't find happiness elsewhere if they are forbidden to sleep with one another. Many people have to find a new partner if the partner they desire is not available for one reason or another.

An a priori assumption that there is such a thing as "sexual orientation". And then limiting it as you subjectively see fit. You also say nothing about how if sexual orientation is different from undeniable sexual functioning, that something must be wrong. At least a brother and sister are aligning their sexual function with the right orientation

carefreewannabe:
Last but not least, the cost of possible kids coming from such unions will have to be carried by the society as a whole. Germany is a welfare state. The kids have to get special health treatment and possibly special education.

So? Kids are born that require State welfare all the time. It's a fact that children from single parent homes take up more welfare spending than those from two parent homes. Yet, for wannabe (see what I did there ) single mums, legislation is moving to enabling them. Should single-mothers not also be legislated against for this same "cost to society" reason?

Likewise for homosexuals. Their lifestyle is more dangerous than smoking, yet we don't stick health warning on it or them. The lives are typically shortened and the health risks and hence the healthcare bill is disproportinally high. Why are they enabled and championed?

carefreewannabe:
I knew people would want to discuss homo.sexuality in this context. They are free to do so. I am not taking part in these debates.
If you want to discuss in.cest with me, you know how to find me but without engaging me in debates on homo.sexuality, please.

The parallels have to be made. Advocate will look to what is acceptable and the arguements that made it so to press their case. Trying to make the point without relevent references is indeed "ostrich in the sand" type behaviour.

carefreewannabe:
I will ONLY say this much:
If disgust is a yardstick to pass bills, then I also want to make it illegal for old men to marry young girls.

I can't stand their view. Honestly.

Agreed.

TV

carefreewannabe:

I will ONLY say this much:

If disgust is a yardstick to pass bills, then I also want to make it illegal for old men to marry young girls.



I can't stand their view. Honestly.

Make your voice count Carefree, speak up today