RikoduoSennin:


I Think he is saying, Jesus has ALWAYS BEEN "A" GOD but he is NOT "THE" GOD whom all the Jews worship. In other words, Jesus his different God who shares the Same God with the Jew and us. A subordinate God.

Hiswordxray:

If Jesus is another God and John said he had been God before creation then that means the Hebrew people have two Gods.

Hiswordxray:

Why is this other God not mentioned in the Old Testament?

RikoduoSennin:


The Hebrew people have ONLY ONE GOD that they worship. Every other Gods even though they knew existed were not worshipped by them but rather other Nations worshipped these Gods.

Prior to Jesus birth: Who was worshipped by the Jews?
John 4:19-24 "...the hour is coming when neither in jerusalem on this mountain WILL YOU WORSHIP 'THE FATHER', You worship what you do not know; 'WE' WORSHIP WHAT WE KNOW.....the hour is coming when the true worshippers will worship 'THE FATHER' in the spirit and truth for such 'THE FATHER' seek to worship him. 'God is Spirit' and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth"

Did Jesus say we should worship himself? If the hour was now- was Jesus a Spirit because he called God a spirit? Why did Jesus use 'We' worship- did he include himself on purpose? Jesus said the Jew KNEW what he worshipped (a God different from Jesus)- his he wrong?

Jesus called the Temple MY FATHER's HOUSE and not MY HOUSE. The tabernacle/temple/synagoue was called God's House- so what kind of God is Jesus if he can't claim such place as his house. NB Revelation 3:2 after Jesus resurrected and went to Heaven, he still did not have that claim. "In MY FATHERS HOUSE there are many mansions there"



That other God being Jesus is irrelevant, seeing as he is not the Almighty neither is he the one that they worshipped. Had Jesus not come to the Earth, do you think, we would have known anything about him?

His Jesus the God of the Jews?

Acts 5:30 " The God of our Fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging on a tree"

John 8:40,54 " ...a man who have told you the truth which I heard from GOD; it is My Father who glorifies me of WHOM YOU SAY THAT HE IS YOUR GOD"

They consider Jesus to be a subordinate of their God/YHWH. Revelation 1:5,6 " To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests TO HIS GOD AND FATHER...."

Hiswordxray:
The problem with this JW is that they don't understand this. Jesus as God is different from Jesus as man. They are like two different roles he plays. Jesus as man is the son of man. As man Jesus is lower than God because all men are lower than God. As man Jesus has to be submissive to God and call Him his Father and his God because God is our God

But as God Jesus is equal to God and is one with God. As God Jesus is the Word of God and this is why John said the Word was God. He used the past tense "was God" to show that Jesus stop being God at a particular time. John went on to say the Word became flesh, implying the Jesus stop being God as at that time and Jesus became man.

Jesus later prayed in John 17:5 that God should give him the glory he had before the world began. After Jesus had accomplished his mission on earth God only gave to Jesus the glory he had before. God didn't make Jesus a God but He returned Jesus to his rightful position.

As a result of Jesus mission on earth Jesus had to play two roles:
1) The role of a divine man.
2) The role of the one and only true God.

Hiswordxray:

Do you denial that they worship Jesus or do you want me to start showing you Scripture that proves they worship Jesus..

If they worship Jesus and they called him God doesn't that mean they have two Gods?

RikoduoSennin:


I mean, John 1:1 mention Two Gods, "The True God and 'The Word' as another God". Different Gods.

After all there are other Gods in heaven (1 corinthians 8:5).

Almighty God is one.
Mighty God is two.
And many other Gods exist.

Hiswordxray:

I don't understand you.
Are you saying Jesus wasn't a God until he came to earth and died?
Or are you saying Jesus is a God even before he came to earth as a man?

NEWBIN:

Johnw74....have u seen this scripture? 1 Corinthians 1:24, But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

SO IF THE FATHER IS DIFFERENT FROM CHRIST, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THE FATHER HAS NO WISDOM NOR POWER OF HIS OWN....THIS IS BLASPHEMY

nutarious:



3 humans came to Abraham, 2 went to destroy sodom and gomora
1 remain and talked to Abraham,Abraham called him God and even persuaded him in regards to sodom been saved, thats GOD................THE QUESTIONS IS WHICH OF THE PERSONS , JESUS.

another point which is very important in us knowing JESUS IS GOD
=MAT 4-7
AND JESUS said unto him(LUCIFER),IT IS WRITTEN AGAIN, THOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD...........................


Here Jesus confirmed here he is GOD............................nobody need noo arquement again, if Jesus aint GOD, the statement will say otherwise but he told satan straight though shall not tempt the lord ur GOD...........................and satan never arqued that with him so satan knows he is [/color]GOD and some of u still beleive in the lies u are been FED....................................................

LOOK AT what jehova witness put in their own Adjusted bible conscerning mat 4=7
Jesus said to him,"again it is written:'you must not put jehova ur GOD to test'

[color=#990000] JW adjusted the bible just to please what suites them, imagine. only in their bible is this much alteration, no other translation reported the way they do, this is purely ANTICHRIST.........................any gospel that tries to undermine christ as GOD is blasphemous and ANTICHRIST.........

most JW find themselves locked in bondage and are forever the only ones that can save themselves....................thats y the JW dont mix or do thigns with other xtians, they come to preach to u and wont even pray lol, cos they dont wanna mention JESUS.........................antichrist


[/color] i saw the worst of this doctrine in UITH, a mother, who bleed for a baby and with all the pains and struggle of motherhood stood to her beleivd doctrine that her son who has accident shouldnt be given blood, her husband was there, her pastor or is it elder was there and we nurse tried to beg her from 12am till 6am , madam pls allow ur son take blood and she refused crying thats againt her faith, imagine. the boy died a painful death due to shortage of blood 8am, and she started mourning and attempting suicide, i just watch in amazement at the power of the mind. Anybody that controls ur mind will be ur lord,

[color=#770077]angry mothers there in his son ward called her murderer,but me i told her next time when if this happen to u next time dont come to hospital, cos actually u knew ur faith will tie down doctors hand..............................i just beg her to save us the sad event and allow it on her head............................now the ability to decide to live if the baby could talk would have been yesssssss........................

[/color] i hate church doctrines with passion, my lord jesus never set one, him i love, him i follow , church is only for edification and never will get us to heaven.................................

shalom!

johnw74:


These speakers are different because Isaiah 48:13 Is Y'hovah God speaking about creating all things,
and Colossians 1:16 is speaking of God creating all things through the Word and for the Word.

The Bible is full of verses showing Y'hovah is the Father and the Word is the Son.
They are the One God yes,
but they are two persons of the Godhead.

I have said myself that Jesus is the Father, but only in the sense that God and the Word is God.

To say the Son and the Father are one person is ridiculous,
The Father beget Jesus.

nutarious:


i never said they are GODS, i said 3 in 1, they are one, if u are tunde , thus it mean ur soul is not u nor body is dift or ur spirit aint urs, this is kinda funny, lets take u as an example, u are 3 persons in 1. which u will agree, thus this mean u are 3 dift people, if this apply to jumans who are just a copy of the original image why the arquement. i insist that GOD is one and never GODS....

TO butres my point, people in occult who have been converted made us understand they operate in the spirit, they leave their body and time travel to their various meetings..........are this not same persons.................

another example is solomon, solomon asked for wisdom when GOD asked hi he should ask, go and read ur bible all this was in the spirit for he was asleep as recorded in the bible so solomon in the spirit comminicated with GOD and not solomon in the flesh......................

more example , Jacob fought with GOD wont allow him to go tillhe was blessed, and GOD bless Jacob as recorded in the bible, but the funny thign here is that all this happen when he was asleep tooo, so jacob did all this in the spiirit,

more example, peter was in the spirit in acts for he was asleep when GOD brought unpure food to him to eat and he arqued with GOD ONLY TO WAKE UP AND SEE Cornelius messengers, the dream translate to God saying gentiles are entitled to salvation even thou jews beleive they are not pure

more examples, REVELATION was written by JOHN THE BELOVED but he was in atrance all true,,common are u following ................thatr humans are 3 in 1

angel appeared to joseph to depart to egypt and run from herod...................


all this happen in the spirirt, have u wonder what happens to ur body when u are really aslepp


now this 3 in 1 complexity of humans are a direct copy from GOD

let us make humans in our image, he was talking to the other persons.................................................

please, it never my work to convince u, but i imploy u to dig deep and never overlook basic truth cos u wannna hold on to ur beleive, its not normal......................................

GOD is 1, but in 3 persons

[s]father=soul
son=Jesus
spirit=holy spirit[/s]


thanks

Maamin:


In as much as I dont agree with some of JW doctrine, neither am I really sure what they all about in Changing the scripture to suit them, frown at blood transfusion, dont mingle with other christians and so on. I think they seems to be real and true to their believe.

Now Mathew 4 reads like this (KJV)..am starting from verse 3 to 10

"3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Question 1: You dont think Satan know exactly who Christ is by calling him 'Son of God' and not simply 'God' i.e Yahweh?

Question 2: And if Jesus is God i.e(Yahweh) i.e who is this 'He' that will give charge to his angels concerning Jesus?

Question 3: Jesus came to do his Father's will not his(Jesus) will but his Father..who is this father that is so highly exalted even by Jesus?

Maamin:


Your English understanding sells you out...you always use "they are" that is why am concern about that.

Now talking about Jacob fought with GOD and he even won, is it the same God is one in three persons? The last time I check God(Yahweh) dwells in an unapproachable light regardless which realm they were in be it spirit realm,physical realm, dream realm etc.

Finally can you back up the striked letters with scriptural verses?

Father is Spirit, Son later came in flesh, the holy spirit is the bonding power behind all this. Even we all are one with Christ and the Father through the Holy spirit...giving us right to be called the Sons of God (Benei Elohim)

nutarious:




so where did he GET the power to send LUCIFER away, since LUCIFER IS A CHIEF god, lol

u are been deluded, before he came to sacrifice himself his name is the WORD........................................

AFTER he came down he became SON....................................ARE U FOLLOWING

JOHN said he was..............................................he stop been the word and became the son because the word has now mix with blood..............................................

notice all ANGELS were initially called sons of GOD..........................................HOPE U KNOW THAT,but know under the new convenat angels seized to be sons and the word became a son because he has to be sacrificed cut away from other 2 persons of GOD..........................

HE ONLY BECAME A SON when he became flesh he was never a son before that..........................HE WAS THE WORD USED IN CREATING...............................................

NOW....................a god would never have been able to command LUCIFER, cos they will be equal in rank...........

only a GOD will be able to..........................so those places u are saying , u dint get..................

all words used ther in regards to the scripture still point to JESUS the word, though shall not tempt the lord ur GOD is a word=jesus............

and thats y he commanded him to begone.....................using the word which is him, notice he never said be gone in the name of GOD

IT WAS A STRAIGHT FORWARD COMMAND,AND HE OBEYED......................

NOW NO ANGEL CAN COMMAND LUCIFER WITHOUT USING GOD'S NAME................................................
EXAMPLE =JUDE 1-9

even micheal the chief security of HEAVEN WAS NOT ABLE TO COMMAND LUCIFER BUT SAY THE LORD REBUKE U, THATS LIKE USING GODS NAME AGAINST LUCIFER........................................................

BUT IN UR own example of the TEMPTATION STORY..............................JESUS COMMANDED LUCIFER WITHOUT SAYING IN GODS NAME COS HE USES THE WORD WHICH IS HIM........................................HOPE U GET IT



NOW, if JESUS dint gave us a doctrine no church can force doctrines on us, u could decide to leave a church and go else where, its same body of christ.....................which means if i change church then no doctrine can hold me down this teaches us that doctrines are restricted to church and not to aspiration to heaven..................................................a doctrine that wont allow small children take blood when they are dying is antichrist..................................it never would rep christ and i insist only a wicked mother could do that, thus this make her go to heaven.............................................


i can even decide not to go to any church and still make heaven...................................so whats the fuss about doctrines.............................................

love GOD, serve him and everytn will be added to u...............................................


peter has highly spiritual has he is fall a victim of this......................whenever he is with gentiles he eats and dine with them, but immediatly a jew shows up he quickly hides away from the gentiles, the jewish doctrine that gentiles are uncircumcised and not clean was his problem then, it took paul to teach peter that one christ and no circumcision will get anybody anywhere, no church doctrine will get us anywhere,


serve GOD and enjoy urlife, dont live in another mans created doctrine, that make u become a subject of such a man eighter he is alive or gone...........................................................we are subject to christ alone.


shalom

nutarious:




am getting tired of this arquement,but JACOB FOUGHT GOD IS IN =GENESIS 32=22-30, U R NOT TALKING TO A BABY XTIAN.


I DONT ARQUE TO WIN OOOOO, AINT MY BUSINESS BUT FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW THE TRUTH.................................



SHALOM

Maamin:


So you believed Jacob literally fought God right?..i read a comment by you on this thread addressing someone to not take everything he read in the bible literally e.g christ telling us to cut off our hand if it will lead us to sin. Now you are finding a way to dodge my question about Jacob fighting with your suppose 3 in one God? Hun!..i see
Of course you are not a baby xtian but a baby Christian..your understanding is bias.

I dont argue to win either but I argue for the truth I know and believe in..but your truth is not good enough my dear!

Shalom aleikhem

Maamin:


So you believed Jacob literally fought God right?..i read a comment by you on this thread addressing someone to not take everything he read in the bible literally e.g christ telling us to cut off our hand if it will lead us to sin. Now you are finding a way to dodge my question about Jacob fighting with your suppose 3 in one God? Hun!..i see
Of course you are not a baby xtian but a baby Christian..your understanding is bias.

I dont argue to win either but I argue for the truth I know and believe in..but your truth is not good enough my dear!

Shalom aleikhem

Maamin:


So you believed Jacob literally fought God right?..i read a comment by you on this thread addressing someone to not take everything he read in the bible literally e.g christ telling us to cut off our hand if it will lead us to sin. Now you are finding a way to dodge my question about Jacob fighting with your suppose 3 in one God? Hun!..i see
Of course you are not a baby xtian but a baby Christian..your understanding is bias.

I dont argue to win either but I argue for the truth I know and believe in..but your truth is not good enough my dear!

Shalom aleikhem

johnw74:



Lets see how your way works out.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was "a" god.

Your way we have God, and "a" god, that makes God being two Gods instead of two persons.

But God is One God and not two gods,
also God is the One True God, and so cannot be "a" god.

nutarious:



Have u read it? Who did the Bible said Jacob fought? Pls don't read Jehova witnesses record, Jacob got up in the morning and was scared he might die for he has seen God.

So what is ur point............

Read it first nha, am I the one that wrote the Bible, Jacob fought God......

U think I form the story? Read it very well 20-30



Calling me a baby xtian is nothing compared to what u are missing by ur denials, ur comprehension is what's important here




Shalom

Maamin:


Lol..i wasn't disputing what that verse in Genesis said about Jacob's struggle with God was i? I only wonder why the literal meaning is so important to you here when in fact you where supporting your argument against someone on this thread that Jesus's words are not to be taking literally cause he spoke in parables or perhaps allegory.

Double standard right?..all because you are not being objective here.


too much sentiment and emotion in your words..you started the baby xtian thingy..i was not asking you of your theological qualifications. Too much pride led you to say that. Well it is not a do or die affair.


Shalom aleikhem!

nutarious
He has to give glory to God cos people he is teaching has a mentality about God that he is not ready to change.

So what he taught them is to pray to God

He said I will come tomorrow

johnw74:


That's not true John 1:1 mentions the word is God along with God, not another God,
which agrees with:
Gal_3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one

johnw74:

What has that to do with this discussion , satan and his angels can be called gods, which has nothing to do with the One True God.

johnw74:

You believe God is two gods, mighty god and Almighty God.
A child would understand that Mighty God is Almighty God.

A child can see the difference between the two but it seems you can't see it.

ALL-MIGHTY GOD is greater than a MIGHTY GOD. The difference is in the Title held by each.


I believe there are more than two Gods but one one worthy of my worship.

nutarious:


Pride? I wonder how it's a pride that I said am not a baby xtian.

U quoted I said Jesus words were in parables, allegory or encrypted did I say the Bible? Old testament is straight, no parables or philosophy........

JESUS words are encrypted, and in full parables that it took his direct disciples to decipher some words but I never said the Bible as a whole, especially the old testaments. They are direct and multiple sourced, and not connected in witnesses or writing. Moses wrote 5 books many author were unknown etc.

I think u really need to apologize to me for accusing me wrongly............. Where is the double standard. I said Jesus u said Bible................. When u wanna accuse make sure u have ur facts......


I said I wasn't a baby xtian in the sence of the scriptural arguments that dosnt make me proud? I really am not a baby xtian yet it ain't mean am still not learning....................... When u get to some level and someone tries to bring ftins u already v been thru with I don't think it's pride to say bro, u err.


Lastly, since u concur to the facts and we now have an understanding that u stand corrected of ur norms then all is well.......... The race is not for the swift nor the fastest.

Let him that thinks he stand be careful if not he falls, this apply to u and i................................ GOD himself is an emotional God, I don't see reasons y we won't be emotional. I continued this argument only to stand firm against some doctrines that depict or tries to reduce Jesus to a mere god.

MY LORD JESUS IS GOD THIS I KNOW LIKE I KNOW THE PALM OF MY HANDS.

GOT TO go, kids and hubby needs me. Lol


God bless you all..........

nutarious:
WHY would the bible say baptise in the name of the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT IN MATTHEW 28=19,could this be said that it implies 3 GOD

ITS straight, baptise in the name of the father, son , and holy spirit..................................................................

a prayer to any of them is same....................................what other proof do u want, hang on to JW.................thats ur right..........

but dont confuse people....................................thats ANTI-CHRIST........................

JESUS WAS seprated briefly from the other persons (the father and holy spirit) and so becomes less as of the time he is in flesh...........................................................because if he were to be fully in person same as the GOD he

nutarious:



Have u read it? Who did the Bible said Jacob fought? Pls don't read Jehova witnesses record, Jacob got up in the morning and was scared he might die for he has seen God.

So what is ur point............

Read it first nha, am I the one that wrote the Bible, Jacob fought God......

U think I form the story? Read it very well 20-30



Calling me a baby xtian is nothing compared to what u are missing by ur denials, ur comprehension is what's important here




Shalom

LOOK AT what jehova witness put in their own Adjusted bible conscerning mat 4=7
Jesus said to him: again it is written You must not put Jehovah ur GOD to the test

U lack the the ability to comprehend not because u can't but u find it hard to let go of ur acquired norms and perception about God......... Fine.

U are entitle to it, but to see facts and all this scripture and still hold on is to me a Peter like altitude to circumcision.

Baptize in the name of father son and holy spirit, that too must be strange to u.................... I and my father are one, strange too,........

Binding and casting out demons without calling any name, sounds strange too...

Telling us he will send Holy Spirit and not God will send holy spirit sounds strange to u too..................

He will judge the world, he is the alpha and omega, the I am, everything was created by him and for him sounds strange too abi?

He forgives sin without asking the father

Colossians record him to shame the kingdom of Devil.................

Eighter u like it or not

The father has ruled, old testament,

The word too has come as the son just for our redemption......... New testament

The Holy Spirit s time is the current time, if u have no holy spirit it's certain u can't communicate to God.......... This is the Holy Spirit and he is working on the church, when a preacher preaches the Holy Spirit arrest the heart and make it sober to understanding............. He teaches beyond realm and can guide us to most holy place.

I insist, doctrines are man made, and u can see them even from the first apostles till now. Now to think am trying to convince u will mean me been stupid, u are mature enough and can decide for ur self, yet the Holy Spirit duty is to convince u...................

Hebrew 1=8, God the Father talks of God the son As God, it should have stop all this argument yet u won't just believe with all this rich scripture

A kingdom can't divide against itself, I am a god and As a god, God is my God, and a son by adoption to sonshiip, God in 3person will forever be a mystery even Lucifer dint get it, it take Holy Spirit to get it

RikoduoSennin:


My dear, Hosea 12:4 paint a fairly good picture.

Jacob fought God, Jacob fought an angel, so Jacob fought "an angel who is also God"

Is that very interesting! Note: the capital letter 'G' in the God as used by the Bible itself.

RikoduoSennin:
IN HEAVEN:

Daniel 7:9,13,14 "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was ancient of days took his seat: his raiment was fiery flames,its wheels were buring fire....and behold with the cloud of Heaven there came one like a son of man and HE CAME TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS AND WAS PRESENTED BEFORE HIM and to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom that all peoples, nations and languages should serve him...."

Q: Who is the Ancient of Days and who is the Son of Man?
Q: Are they one person in Heaven or seperate two different beings?
Q: Are they equal in Heaven? (One sat on the throne and gave the other dominion)

Revelation 4:1,8; 5:1-13 "...and behold A THRONE was set in Heaven and ONE sat on the throne....and they rest not day and night saying HOLY HOLY HOLY Lord God Almighty....and I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and the backside sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book and the seal thereof? And no man in heaven nor in earth neither under the earth was able to open the book neither to look theron....behold the lion of the tribe of judah, the root of David has prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof....stood a lamb....and he came and took the book out of the right hand of HIM that sat upon the throne...."

Q: Who was sitting on the throne and who is the Lamb? Are both of them the same being?
Q: Why will the Lamb be receiving something from the one seated on the throne if they are equal?
Q: between the one seated on the throne and the lamb who seem to be superior?

Compare vision of Heaven found in the book of Isaiah and Ezekiel.

Q: Is Jesus really ALmighty God/Most High?