fellis:
I want to visit Igieduma.... Any Jehova witness on Nairaland willing to be my tour guide?

onila:
Jehovah Witness believe in the Trinity

"The doctrine of the Trinity — that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God "

so how can you say they dont see Jesus as God

they are not Jewish

paulGrundy:


I was only trying to be sarcastic..

This is a case of sarcasm gone sour.

By the way, threads that are critical of JW's aka watchtower is his invitation card.

paulGrundy:


My quotes are in line with the subject of the thread, which is about jehovahs witness. Hence there is no derailments or insults made to anyone.

This is social forum not a e-court, this is a place to contribute intelligent posts to threads, a place to learn and exchange ideas. Don't take any critique of the watchtower as an attack on your religion. Open your mind so that you can see all facets of the truth.

Don't take any post personal.

Sorry, kpele.

since1914:



Though am not exactly very big on religion, but I must confess I was pleasantly surprised, the first time I attended a Jehova's Witness service in Scandicci, Florence. I first went there out of curiosity, after one of their members pestered me relentlessly. The services were very simple and short, and consisted mainly of a few prayers, short talk and hymns sang by every one. I had a nice experience there, and I met very nice people too, I also loved the environment, it had well manicured lawns with beautiful flowers. I ended up attending three more services. But I don't know if their services follow the same pattern here in Nigeria, considering that our approach to religion here is usually different.

johnw74:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

LORD
kurios
means Supreme in authority, God.

LORDS
also is kurios, supreme in authority, God.

Jesus Christ returns as God of God's,
with the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God,

Jesus Christ the One True God, who for mankind's sake lowered Himself to that of a servant, and death on the cross.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Word Jesus considered Himself equal to God,
just like scripture says:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the beginning was the Word, the beginning is before Creation, the beginning is eternity.
In the beginning God the Word - Jesus, made the angels, He made all that exists.
Michael is an angel, the Word Jesus made him,
the Word Jesus is God.

jw blaspheme God saying He is "a god", and so a false God,
as there is only One True God.


Bros, I'm interested in the Php:2:6 you quoted. On my check, I found out that verse 5 of it says " have this mental attitude in you that was in Christ" .Now if that mental attitude in Christ is as your version says " not thought it a robbery to be equal with God"-- that seem to suggest that Jesus doesn't see anything wrong in claiming equality with God. then since verse 5 urges us to have same mental attitude, it then logically means that we should like Christ " not thought it a robbery to be equal with God " meaning? We should also claim equality with God. That's an outright contradiction with the fact that only one God is supreme, Almighty. So I decided to check other translations like Reference Bible, Byington, American Standard version etc. To my surprise, they renders opposite of what your version says. They all in summary says that Christ did not gave a consideration to equality with God something he should aspire for. Unlike Satan who aspired to rise to the position of God.
As for whether Jesu is the true God himself, Jesus himself said to Mary at John:20 :17 " stop clinging to me, for I have not ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and Your father, and to my God and Your God. If he Christ was to be that God, it will be confusing that he is God to himself and Father to himself.
Again Hebrews:5:7-9 says of Christ: "During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who is able to SAVE HIM out of death, and he was favourably heard for " his godly fears" so you can see that (1)Christ needed a saviour as here says, Someone superior to him. (2) he had godly fears, an expression of request for assistance(protection) from God. These texts doesn't favour a believe in the teaching that made Jesus equal to God Almighty, hence Bible at Isaiah: 9:6 says the Son is a "Mighty God" not Almighty God which is supreme.

since1914:



Though am not exactly very big on religion, but I must confess I was pleasantly surprised, the first time I attended a Jehova's Witness service in Scandicci, Florence. I first went there out of curiosity, after one of their members pestered me relentlessly. The services were very simple and short, and consisted mainly of a few prayers, short talk and hymns sang by every one. I had a nice experience there, and I met very nice people too, I also loved the environment, it had well manicured lawns with beautiful flowers. I ended up attending three more services. But I don't know if their services follow the same pattern here in Nigeria, considering that our approach to religion here is usually different.

paulGrundy:


Can accurate unquestionable truth be outdated?

Maximus69:


When you have a child, you cherish, feed, clothe and protect your child with all what you have including inculcating in the child all he/she need to know before he/she becomes an adult! 1Corinthians 13:11

Your teaching techniques must be a gradual thing, why? Because children learn fast so you shouldn't tell him certain things until he reach the age to bear it! John 16:12

That's how God is teaching us! Proverbs 4:18

So the understanding of each generation of Adam's descendants is progressive, what moses knew about God surpassed that of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Levi! Exodus 6:2-3
Note that all these people are also servants as in worshipers of the same God, but as time goes by each generation of his worshipers knew much more than their ancestors!
So one shouldn't expect God's people to always have the same understanding with those who lived before them. One thing that's certain is that in every generation, God's people living at the same period of time always have same line of thought! 1Corinthians 1:10

paulGrundy:


we are talking about two different things. to gradually improve on a fact is different from reverting to what you originally taught as false. take for example watchtowers stance on organ transplant.

Although the Awake! 1949 Dec. 22 had described transplants as “wonders of modern surgery” in 1967 God revealed that transplants were wrong in his eyes.

The Watchtower 1967 Nov. 15 pp.702-704 stated that being now “enlightened by God’s word” God’s people understood that transplants are against divine principles and cannibalistic.

then the watchtower went back to its initial stance.

Watchtower 1980 Mar. 15 p.31 – “There is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding the taking in of other human tissue . It is a matter for personal decision.”

The enlightenment of 1967 had proved to be dark, harmful and in need of later correction, a regressive doctrine that resulted in the unnecessary death of members.

When a doctrine changes and then reverts back to the original position, this is not evidence of light getting brighter, it is evidence of a lack of Holy Spirit .

Maximus69:


All what you said is factual but NOT the TRUTH!

WHY?

Considering the condition of Christianity as stated in Jesus' illustration of the bad seed planted by the Devil! Matthew 13:24-30

Note that Satan planted the bad seeds and the Master of the feed said to his attendants "allow both of them to grow together"
Of course the bad seeds will overpower the fine seeds. That's why the misinterpretation of the Orthodox Churches like Catholics dominates in the teachings of religions claiming Christians and the FRUIT of God's holy spirit {Galatians 5 :22-23} disappeared after the death of the first century Christian pioneers!

Jesus' illustration regarding his return shows that during the end time, Christianity will come out of her (slumbering) condition {Revelation 11:7-11} and honest hearted people will start searching the scriptures to know what's missing so the FRUIT of God's holy spirit will manifest again just as it was in the first century! Matthew 24:45

But note how Jesus did this in the first century, his followers were a real headache for any teacher, as they kept stumbling on the same error he was patient with them.
Why?
They always take to correction!

Of course Jehovah's Witnesses committed lot of blunders, but Jesus (spiritually) kept correcting them and they are ever willing to yield!

That's why they are the one and only Christian group producing the FRUIT of God's holy spirit!

The misconception most people had about God's holy spirit is misplacing GIFT for FRUIT!

Miracles, speaking in tongues, new visions, hearing directly from God are GIFTS of God's holy spirit. Apostle Paul made it clear to first century Christians that such gifts will seize amongst true Christians! 1Corinthians 13:1-3
But the FRUIT differs from that, it "will NEVER fail and it bears so many things" such as you are complaining about now! 1Corinthians 13:4-7

You will continue to see them commit blunders and you'll also notice as they are ever ready for correction!

But honest hearted and sincere observers will notice these FRUITS in their midst,
LOVE
JOY
PEACE
PATIENCE
GOODNESS
KINDNESS
FAITH
MILDNESS
SELF-CONTROL

There is NO LAW you can quote against them after seeing this because that's what is excepted of God's holy spirit as products! Galatians 5:22-23 compared to Matthew 7:15-20
Thanks!

paulGrundy:

by this comment you just admitted that they were not directed by the holy spirit to make those doctrine. but why should you put 100% trust in all the watchtower teaches and call it unquestionable truth.
JWs are forbidden from putting the doctrine under examination.
what is the basis by which you jumped into this conclusion?
when Jesus was on earth he didn't put any stamp or endorsement on any group. the selfishness and narcissism of man made him to create creeds and organizations, denominations to draw attention to himself causing avoidable deaths, and the social vices in the world today.
there is nothing that you need to know that is not in the Bible. in fact you don't need any organization to interpret the Bible for you and manipulate you to satisfy their excessive cravings for attention.
use your head!

paulGrundy:


when Jesus was on earth he didn't put any stamp or endorsement on any group. the selfishness and narcissism of man made him to create creeds and organizations, denominations to draw attention to himself causing avoidable deaths, and the social vices in the world today.


!

Janosky:


Sofry dey lie small small..
***** Matt 5:20
" For I tell you that unless your
righteousness surpasses that of the
Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you
will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven"

Matt 28:20 "teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you",
To whom did Jesus Christ address both statements?

Maximus69:


I only noticed that most people claiming Christians don't know the difference between the FRUIT of God's holy spirit and the GIFT!

Well i just explained what Gift means regarding God's holy spirit.
This are the things that has NOTHING to do with humans trying to work on their attitudes and the effects it has on others living around them. So only God can determine how it goes.
Hearing directly from God.
Performing signs and wonders.
Speaking in strange tongues, and suchlike.
But the FRUIT shows how hard you're working to imitate God so that yourself and others around you can benefit from the way you live your life!

So while you have no control on the GIFT of God's holy spirit, the FRUIT is purely based on how responsive and obedient you are to divine instructions!

LOVE ~ The whole world know that when we're talking about this quality, it's undeniable that Jehovah's Witnesses have it amongst them! John 13:34-35

JOY ~ It's someone having this quality that will leave his/her house to pay a friendly visit to those living in his neighborhood! Matthew 10:11-15

PEACE ~ This quality is evident when you respond to what's happening around you. Today, the world has gone crazy and everyone is trying to fight, avenge, defend or demand for their right with violence. Jehovah's Witnesses have dropped all weapons, they only believe in dialogue! Matthew 26:52

FAITH ~ This quality is noticed when everyone is scared of what lies ahead, what's happening around them determines their next line of action. But those having this quality will act according to God's promise unlike others who are scared of the uncertainty! Hebrew 11:1,6

SELF-CONTROL ~ This means the ability to keep your calmness in dreadful situations. So when everyone is protesting one way or the other due to the policies of their governments and taking sides in POLITICS, Jehovah's Witnesses will never join in such but focus on the preaching and teaching assignment Jesus gave them! John 6:15, 14:30

As for not needing any organization to TEACH me what i needed to know about God's kingdom, well i think that's not true. Because the Israelites had the scriptures with them for centuries, God instructed them to read and meditate {Psalms 1:1-3} yet Jesus still sent his followers to GO AND TEACH THEM GOD'S WORD! Matthew 10:11-15

The first century Christians have those TEACHING them in their midst! Act 2:42, 18:24-26 Hebrew 13:7,17

So how come you're now saying someone like me (a Nigerian far away from Israel the ~ origin of the book) need no one to TEACH me?

Maximus69:
@ paulGrundy.

You seem to be sincere with you comments Sir, so permit me to talk first about the EXAMPLES!

Paul mentioned nine qualities as the evidence of God's holy spirit permeating the organization of God. Galatians 5:22-23

So the group practicing true Christianity must produce all these qualities.
Note that no single Christian can meet up with all these requirement because of our imperfect state, but as a GROUP that's working with God's holy spirit all these qualities will become evident!

You mentioned so many religious groups also claiming Christians but they're not known globally like Jehovah's Witnesses! Matthew 5:14-16 compared to Matthew 28:20, Act 1:8

LOVE ~ any sincere observer will testify to this quality amongst Jehovah's Witnesses because they do excommunicate those who aren't ready to uphold their teachings but whoever from any part of the earth that is willing to live by it automatically becomes their family! Matthew 12:46-50
JOY~ Charity, they say begins at home. Jehovah's Witnesses are know first in their neighborhood as preachers and teachers of God's word. This makes it easy for everyone to know that they're not just strangers coming to tell them what's not applicable in their neighborhood since they're there with you to lead by examples!
PEACE ~ The one and only group that stands out to be totally neutral during ethnic conflicts are Jehovah's Witnesses, that's why most people hate them because they will not join in castigating someone simply because their tribes hate the strangers tribe! So it's not just a matter of listing unknown religions claiming they're also peace loving. Ordinarily participating in resiting the national anthem shows you don't grasp what PEACE means!
FAITH ~ faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident DEMONSTRATION of realities even though it's not obvious. Hebrew 11:1
Only Jehovah's Witnesses display their faith as people in their neighborhood can see that they're not rich in material things, yet they still set aside time to go out for the preaching and teaching assignment Jesus gave them. That's the work of FAITH because majority can only do that if they're going to be PAID for their time!
SELF-CONTROL ~ Jehovah's Witnesses have these to a fault! Even when they come knocking on my gate, i threatened to shoot them but they just left PEACEFULLY and to my amazement, this same persons (NOT another set) saw me and greeted me cordially!

The remaining points you mentioned still boils down to the issue of GIFT and FRUIT!

Paul said those GIFTS (like what you're expecting from Jehovah's Witnesses)WILL CEASE amongst true Christians! 1Corinthians 13:8

I don't concentrate on those GIFTS since they're not what Jesus said will determined his group during the end time, but the FRUIT! Matthew 7:15-20

So i'll implore you to leave the matter of GIFTS and let's concentrate on the FRUITS. 1Corinthians 13:1-3
Can you please tell me why all those other religions you mentioned aren't ACTIVE globally like Jehovah's Witnesses? James 2:18-26

paulGrundy:

like i reiterated earlier, the earlier church was not an organized group as we have today. the church only started getting organized after constantine converted to Christianity. Pauls message was directed towards believers.
remember in the bible
Mark 9:38-41 New International Version (NIV)
Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
that verse is proof that Jesus does not subscribe to us versus them attitude. or our organization versus yours attitude.
relationship with God was based on faith. he preached inclusion not exclusion.
says who? biblical proof?
there are many countries where christainity has been banned talkless of jehovahs witnessess. hence they are not known there. pax christi is a catholic movement, it was among those groups i mentioned, the catholic church has more size, popularity and reputation that jehovahs witnessess.
i know you are deliberately downsizing the role gifts play in christainity because the watchtower failed woefully in that area e.g false prophecy.
yet they keep predicting the end of the world.
very wrong!!
acts 2;17
‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
if you believe that we are the last days then you should believe this verse applys to us.
hebrews 13;8 said Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
hebrews 2; 4 describes signs and wonders, gifts as affirmation of the message they preach
which is another sign that miracles has not passed away except that you want to tell me that your message has changed from what the apostles taught.
the problem here is with the watchtowers failure in the area of gifts, zero fulfilled predictions, no miracle or wonder to prove that the religion is validated by God. just old wives fables about an ''invisible jesus'' validating the religion as true. D;

thus they come up with explanations to save face.
reminds me of a fraudster i encountered i asked him for proof that his product was superior to others in the market, the only proof he gave me was ''his word''.
pax christi is very active. the oneness pentecostals is a movement among pentecostals that dont believe in trinity, but they are very active.
i presume active to mean the size of the group.
ironically the watchtower has also failed in the area of fruits.

Maximus69:


When Jesus walked the earth, what he taught sounds totally strange before his audience! John 6:64-66, 10:20
So it's impossible for him to ORGANIZE his students as a group. But before his departure he prayed fervently to God for his group to be ORGANIZED! John 17:20-23
And that's exactly what happened! Act 2:42

As regards the GIFT of God's holy spirit, you quoted a perfect scripture but you didn't complete the analysis. How? The last days began from the day of John the baptist down to our day! Matthew 3:1-2, 11:12-13
That's the time when that prophecy was fulfilled.
The point is each prophecy has a specific purpose so it WON'T CONTINUE after the purpose has been met!

For instance, the speaking in tongues will serve the purpose of spreading the message of the God of Abraham throughout the earth. Remember every nation have their own Gods, but it's only Abraham's God that's supreme! Micah 4:5
So how are they going to do this with the language barrier? That's the purpose of SPEAKING IN TONGUES! And since the Bible had been translated to virtually all the languages on this planet, THERE IS NO FURTHER NEED FOR SPEAKING IN TONGUES! 1Corinthians 13:8:10

Jesus said there will be FALSE Christs and prophets teaching twisted things in his name {Matthew 24:5-11} so true Christians will always stand against such men and their misinformed followers {2Corinthians 11:12-15} this will make them furious and they'll develop vehement hatred for true Christians for separating themselves as NO PART OF THEM! John 17:14-16

Paul said we should be careful with the teaching of Christ because FAITH IS NOT WHAT EVERYONE CHERISH! 2Thessalonians 3:2

So there will always be hatred between light and darkness! Genesis 3:15

If you can't single out the one and only Christian group practicing what Jesus taught, it's OK Sir i can understand you perfectly. But i can solve that now with the little i know from studying the Bible!

paulGrundy:

Jesus here was talking about Unity of purpose and inclusion. even when there was slight varaitaions in the teachings of paul and peter, they still worked together. is that what is obtainable with the watchtower today?
the society today will not form alliance with other church groups even in doctrinal areas where they agree.
the prophecy is still in fulfillment and continually serving its purpose which is confirming of the word. besides we are still in the last days.
you forgot to include that speaking in tongues is a prayer language. 1 Corinthians 14:14-19.
except you are trying to say there is no further need for prayer.
exactly! we can see how they misinform people and give false prophecies.
we indeed see their fruits is evident in the undue death of thousands who refuse simple medicare that would save their lives, destruction of families and malicious literature that promotes strife and sedition. Galatians 5:19-21
many of the skills and achievements you put in the watchtower CV is also in other groups CV. but yet there is division, ranchor and disunity amongst yourselves. that is a sure sign that God did not endorse any denomination. the hatred is not due to zeal for gods work but based on strife, malice, jealousy, greed, narcissim e.t.c. amongst the groups.

paulGrundy:


Can accurate unquestionable truth be outdated?

BIBLESPEAKS:


There's no point using the adjectives "accurate" and "unquestionable" to modify the TRUTH. This is because there isn't any such thing as inaccurate truth. Truth ofcos can be questioned by persons not having accurate knowledge. But when they learn, they come to see the truth.

Learning truth is a process. With a pure motive, a person can set out on a journey to learn the truth. He would have to be humble, patient and objective in his approach. To learn the truth, he would need God's spirit. According to John 6:44, No one comes to believe and have faith in Jesus except the father draws him. Despite many years of learning the truth, he may need to adjust his understanding sometimes because as he grows spiritually, he would have a better understanding of TRUTH.
Another reason why he might have to adjust his understanding is because God doesn't teach us or tell us everything at once, he reveals things at his own time. This is evident in God's words to Daniel in Daniel 12:4, after showing Daniel the vision concerning the last days, Daniel didn't understand all of it. God told him to seal up the book until the time of the end, people will rove about and true knowledge will become abundant.