zstranger:

There is only one reference. Everything was copied from the paper: The Descent from Oduduwa: Claims of Superiority among Some Yoruba Traditional Rulers and the Arts of Ancient Ife by Cornelius O. Adepegba


I though I made that clear already!

My bad, wasn't sure that all the posts were from the same source.

Katsumoto:

Does Russia have to conquer Nigeria before you accept that Russia is stronger in military terms? Oyo was a powerhouse; Ife was never a power house.

I suspect most of the Yoruba states did not attack Ife because of its spiritual nature.

Are they?. Do you know about the Nigerian SEALS that captured and killed Osisikankuw, the greatest terrorist that has ever lived?

aloy/emeka:

Are they?. Do you know about the Nigerian SEALS that captured and killed Osisikankuw, the greatest terrorist that has ever lived?

Send them to the North now.

Interesting!

I'm glad that the influence of these kings is shrinking day by day.

Can you imagine how much it'd set Yorubaland back if these guys were still prominent?

^^ in what ways? can you expatiate?

I know there were bad rulers but there were many good ones too.

ekt_bear:

I'm glad that the influence of these kings is shrinking day by day.

Can you imagine how much it'd set Yorubaland back if these guys were still prominent?

They set Yorubaland back several centuries by not fighting and eliminating each other until there was one ruler. All that stone throwing and cursing instead of taking each other's throne did not encourage innovation. Made Yorubaland vulnerable to the British.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
Denis Diderot

ekt_bear:

I'm glad that the influence of these kings is shrinking day by day.

Can you imagine how much it'd set Yorubaland back if these guys were still prominent?

This is not the first time I've seen this point of view from you.  It is really disappointing.  'Nuff said.

isale_gan2:

This is not the first time I've seen this point of view from you.  It is really disappointing.  'Nuff said.

They are selfish, petty and largely look after their own interests. Not that of their own people. How can we still be squabbling over supremacy of Alaafin and Ooni in 2011

Don't we have bigger fish to fry in Yorubaland? Wasting energy and resources on things that don't matter is annoying. World of 6+ billion people, and we are battling over Alaafin versus Ooni 

Neither of them matter very much for what we need to accomplish. Give me electricity, manufacturing jobs, healthcare and education over any kings.

Katsumoto:

They set Yorubaland back several centuries by not fighting and eliminating each other until there was one ruler. All that stone throwing and cursing instead of taking each other's throne did not encourage innovation. Made Yorubaland vulnerable to the British.

It is tough though. Yorubaland was a pretty fvked up place at that time. All this human sacrifice, ritualism, slavery stuff. I can see why it'd be hard to consolidate rule with such harsh practices.

But yeah, if there had been some sort of enlightened Oyo Empire leadership, it'd have been best if they'd conquered all of Yorubaland. We'd be in a much stronger position today.

OAM4J:

^^ in what ways? can you expatiate?

I know there were bad rulers but there were many good ones too.

I'm just against royalty, monarchy, things like that. Even a "good" king. . . how good is he really going to be, in this day and age? what is the difference between a monarch and a military dictator? Pretty much the same thing

I believe in decentralized power, checks and balances, the ability of those governed to offer feedback on how their leaders are doing, etc.

ezeagu:

Send them to the North now.

Have they not conquered Boko Haram?

@zstranger,

Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.

I can't believe I'm tempted to offer a defence for some arrogant Monarchs, anyway, I'll resist. BUT:

Pure Monarchy = extreme

ekt_bear's possibly Yankee-influenced anti monarchy tirade = extreme

BTW, the English arranged their invited Europrean monarchs by rank during William and Kates wedding. No? Everybody knew their place.

Lastly, EzeUche, you must break me some kolanut for using that quote without my permission, I have the sole rights to it on NL

Katsumoto:

They set Yorubaland back several centuries by not fighting and eliminating each other until there was one ruler. All that stone throwing and cursing instead of taking each other's throne did not encourage innovation. Made Yorubaland vulnerable to the British.

viva the hundred years war

imho, nigeria chiefs tribal leaders etal are not good for anything

say what you will, but those white monarchies put the west where it is today.

their actions drove progress

african / arab chiefs on the other hand do absolutely nothing but take on western titles like prince and princess for their dilettante children

Kilode: I've been influenced by Western civilization, yes. But not entirely. Remember, here we have the Bushes, the Clintons, the Kennedys, and most people don't have a problem with 'em and their "born to rule" mentality.

I believe that the best way to run a society is to find the best talent available and fully utilize it. Now, what are the odds of the best talent being all concentrated in one family? Basically, very slim.

I dunno if you follow the NBA at all? Have you noticed how even Michael Jordan's sons absolutely flopped? They just aren't good enough to make the NBA. Rarely does an NBA son make the NBA; you find these top players in random places (with athletic parents, to be sure, but not necessarily parents who both are basketball players.) Serge Ibaka is from the Congo, Dwight Howard's pop was a policeman, etc, etc. It isn't the children of the 70s and 80s NBA elites who are dominating the game today.

I believe the same thing holds more generally in life. Fashola's pikin are very unlikely to be the best folk we can find to govern Lagos state in say 30 or 40 years.

Anyway, this is why I'm against hereditary authority.

@stranger

Stop quoting that your bogus book written by an Ife apologist jare, simply answer the questions below.

1) Why were the Fulanis so keen to conquer and destroy Oyo and not Ife?

2) After destroying old Oyo why did the Fulani warriors not make a beeline for Ife instead of Ibadan.

3) How many times did the Ibadans fight the Ifes and how many times did they fight Oyo?

4) If Ooni was the superior monarch how come the modakekes, ordinary settlers could take up arms and kick the ifes into the bush three times.

5) Why would a superior Ooni need to form an alliance with Ilorin to fight the Ibadans who were defending Yoruba lands during the civil war

6) Hope you know that the Basorun was far far superior to your Ooni, if you need clarifications I shall give you.

7) Who did the marauding Fulanis consider the King of the Yorubas?

People should not mistake Oyo for Ibadan, Ibadan was a military might but none of the leaders were royal, that was why they had a baale, everybody paid obeisance to the Alaafin, who was a Slave priest to refuse to perform the rites for a King, the Ibadans would have sent the Modakekes to make short work of such an Ooni.

According to stranger the British favoured the Alaafin, yeah right, you think the Ilorins, Ijebus, Egbas and Ibadans would have signed the treaties with an inferior King? The civil wars had over hundreds of thousands of people fighting, I am sure those who commanded these men would know their real leaders.

I am not too concerned about the monarchy, in fact I believe it should be scrapped but, we should not allow our history to be denigrated by all these Ife people, it is where the King is that is his palace, Air force one does not get the call sign until the president steps in.


http://www.gamji.com/article4000/NEWS4738.htm

http://www.ijebu.org/oyo/

http://www.edo-nation.net/sowunmi1.htm

hercules07:

@stranger

Stop quoting that your bogus book written by an Ife apologist jare, simply answer the questions below.

1) Why were the Fulanis so keen to conquer and destroy Oyo and not Ife?

2) After destroying old Oyo why did the Fulani warriors not make a beeline for Ife instead of Ibadan.

3) How many times did the Ibadans fight the Ifes and how many times did they fight Oyo?

4) If Ooni was the superior monarch how come the modakekes, ordinary settlers could take up arms and kick the ifes into the bush three times.

5) Why would a superior Ooni need to form an alliance with Ilorin to fight the Ibadans who were defending Yoruba lands during the civil war

6) Hope you know that the Basorun was far far superior to your Ooni, if you need clarifications I shall give you.

7) Who did the marauding Fulanis consider the King of the Yorubas?

People should not mistake Oyo for Ibadan, Ibadan was a military might but none of the leaders were royal, that was why they had a baale, everybody paid obeisance to the Alaafin, who was a Slave priest to refuse to perform the rites for a King, the Ibadans would have sent the Modakekes to make short work of such an Ooni.

According to stranger the British favoured the Alaafin, yeah right, you think the Ilorins, Ijebus, Egbas and Ibadans would have signed the treaties with an inferior King? The civil wars had over hundreds of thousands of people fighting, I am sure those who commanded these men would know their real leaders.

I am not too concerned about the monarchy, in fact I believe it should be scrapped but, we should not allow our history to be denigrated by all these Ife people, it is where the King is that is his palace, Air force one does not get the call sign until the president steps in.


http://www.gamji.com/article4000/NEWS4738.htm

http://www.ijebu.org/oyo/

http://www.edo-nation.net/sowunmi1.htm

I am a bit confused. How come the Onipopo of popo and the Onisabe of Sabe in Benin Republic still pay respect to the Oni of Ife not the Alafin of Oyo. Although, the Oyo empire was ruled by the Alafin. . . .its very confusing , . .

Ekt_bear I understand your point

As much as I like my culture and recognize the benefits of tradition, I'm not a fan of monarchies too, especially the pseudo-monarchies we have all over most parts of Nigeria, it's a joke really.

If the British imposed governmental system we inherited has the absolute power to decide which King is superior in Yorubaland or in Oyo (rotating council of Obas? WTF is that sef?)  we can as well pack shop and scrap the whole thing. You can imagine how many Baales are now turning themselves into kings, What is the point now?

My beef is not just with this perennial squabbling between Ooni and the Alaafin, it's with the whole system itself.

I mean, Since Alao Akala decides the royal pecking order in Oyo State, like other Governors and premiers before him did, what is the point of having a royal chieftaincy hierarchy tradition?  It basically rubbishes their role as custodians of culture and tradition If a governor can determine who is higher than who and who should rotate or step aside in a council of Oyo Obas 

So for me, I see no need for a system that has outlived its usefulness and lost it's ability to exercise both moral and political authority. We can as well turn the palaces into theme parks or museums and place curators in them.

I just can't imagine some Edo governor trying to raise up an Enogie over the Oba of Benin.

oyb:

viva the hundred years war

imho, nigeria chiefs tribal leaders etal are not good for anything

say what you will, but those white monarchies put the west where it is today.

their actions drove progress

african / arab chiefs on the other hand do absolutely nothing but take on western titles like prince and princess for their dilettante children

After 100 years of war, how many titles were abolished? Nil and why was that?
There were wars but it was the people who died and suffered. How many Kings lost their lives with their titles?
The kings weren't ambitious enough or fearful for their lives to have fought to the end. How many times did the Ibadans and Ekiti's battle? Several. What about the Egba and Ijebus or the Egbas and Ijebus and Oyo?

Now compare that with the European model of assimilation through warfare and marriage. How long did it take the Saxons to capture all of England? Fearing Viking invasion, the various kingdoms unified under the dominant kingdom, Wessex, in the 10th century. When the Normans invaded England in 1066, the Anglo-Saxon king, Harold godwinson, fell at the battle of Hastings. How many Yoruba kings went into battle? Instead of expansion, they were content with marrying many wives and having many kids.

The Oyo model was the closest in terms of structure to the European model but the checks and balances within that set-up ultimately brought that empire down. When Europeans invaded another kingdom, they didn't leave the king alive; they usually left someone else in charge to watch over the place like a caretaker. This ensured that the defeated king did not continue to prepare for future wars. Case in point: the manner in which the kingdoms of castile and Aragon conquered other Spanish kingdoms before uniting through marriage of Isabella and Ferdinand in the 15th century.

You will notice I am in agreement with the rest of your post.

Kilode?!:

Ekt_bear I understand your point

As much as I like my culture and recognize the benefits of tradition, I'm not a fan of monarchies too, especially the pseudo-monarchies we have all over most parts of Nigeria, it's a joke really.

If the British imposed governmental system we inherited has the absolute power to decide which King is superior in Yorubaland or in Oyo (rotating council of Obas? WTF is that sef?)  we can as well pack shop and scrap the whole thing. You can imagine how many Baales are now turning themselves into kings, What is the point now?

My beef is not just with this perennial squabbling between Ooni and the Alaafin, it's with the whole system itself.

I mean, Since Alao Akala decides the pecking royal order in Oyo State, like other Governors and premiers before him did, what is the point of having a royal chieftaincy hierarchy tradition?  It basically rubbishes their role as custodians of culture and tradition If a governor can determine who is higher than who and who should rotate or step aside in a council of Oyo Obas 

So for me, I see no need for a system that has outlived its usefulness and lost it's ability to exercise both moral and political authority. We can as well turn the palaces into theme parks or museums and place curators in them.

I just can't imagine some Edo governor trying to raise up an Enogie over the Oba of Benin.

I don't care whose ox is gored but the only relevant king in Nigeria is the Oba of Benin. The Awujale probably still commands some respect because he isn't afaid to say it like it is. The rest are jeun soke kings; only looking after their own welfare. The current Ooni is an example of why kings have lost relevance.

The Oba of Benin is respected, the Sultan of Sokoto too before the GEJ election wahala, the Awujale learnt his lessons when Awo dealt with him, all the ones in Oyo and Osun are chop and quench monarchs, the guy in Lagos is not doing too badly too.

I don't care whose ox is gored but the only relevant king in Nigeria is the Oba of Benin. The Awujale probably still commands some respect because he isn't afaid to say it like it is. The rest are jeun soke kings; only looking after their own welfare. The current Ooni is an example of why kings have lost relevance.

You dont get it, do you?

This is never about the personality of Olubuse II, its about the institution; the throne of his, and in a way, our, fore fathers.

And, FYI, it is time you guys stopped talking about what you know little about.

Be careful bad-mouthing him; very few people can ever achieve half of what he achieved personally before ascending the throne.

If you have no respect for the revered throne, good, but stop writing about things you read in the Newspapers. Greatness does not approach him who looks down on others

hercules07:

The Oba of Benin is respected, the Sultan of Sokoto too before the GEJ election wahala, the Awujale learnt his lessons when Awo dealt with him, all the ones in Oyo and Osun are chop and quench monarchs, the guy in Lagos is not doing too badly too.

If you ever want to grow up to be something in life, you'd better stopped allowing newspaper headlines making your decisions for you. Stop mentioning Ooni's name. You know very little about what really happened.


Omo ale lo n fi owo left juwe baba e.

zstranger:

You dont get it, do you?

This is never about the personality of Olubuse II, its about the institution; the throne of his, and in a way, our, fore fathers.

And, FYI, it is time you guys stopped talking about what you know little about.

Be careful bad-mouthing him; very few people can ever achieve half of what he achieved personally before ascending the throne.

If you have no respect for the revered throne, good, but stop writing about things you read in the Newspapers. Greatness does not approach him who looks down on others

You can defend him for all I care but the fact is that he personifies everything that is wrong with the institution of Kings. As for personal achievement, not everybody is able to sell his soul for a few coins. I know more about your king than you may think. Not everyone gets their facts from newspapers; some see things happen.

zstranger:

If you ever want to grow up to be something in life, you'd better stopped allowing newspaper headlines making your decisions for you. Stop mentioning Ooni's name. You know very little about what really happened.


Omo ale lo n fi owo left juwe baba e.

You want to start cursing people now or you are going to report them? Eni to ba sepe, ori e ati awon omo e lo ma lo. Please respect yourself and leave the curses out.

zstranger:

You dont get it, do you?

This is never about the personality of Olubuse II, its about the institution; the throne of his, and in a way, our, fore fathers.

And, FYI, it is time you guys stopped talking about what you know little about.

Be careful bad-mouthing him; very few people can ever achieve half of what he achieved personally before ascending the throne.

If you have no respect for the revered throne, good, but stop writing about things you read in the Newspapers. Greatness does not approach him who looks down on others

Please elaborate on the bolded and don't refer me to his website. Sometimes you should just state your opinions as such rather than as facts.

@stranger

I do not give a damn about your curses, your Ooni is one of the most useless Kings I have ever seen in my life, anybody who has been to Ife will know that that awo Ibadan bi eni n wo oyo has not brought any development to that place, he has not used his influence to promote the needs of his people, can you believe this man was a staunch supporter of both Oyinlola and Omisore, he stopped supporting Omisore just recently. The Ooni has interest in RCC, can you please tell us how well that company performed on the Ibadan - Ilesha road, a King that is always on the side of o balu je, ko ni da fun gbogbo yin papo.

Katsumoto:

You can defend him for all I care but the fact is that he personifies everything that is wrong with the institution of Kings. As for personal achievement, not everybody is able to sell his soul for a few coins. I know more about your king than you may think. Not everyone gets their facts from newspapers; some see things happen.

I don't know why children wouldn't listen to Katsumoto, the smartest Yoruba persona here on N/L
This is what I read in undergrads here in Atlanta about ancient Yoruba empire.

"The Alaafin of Oyo was the king, direct descendant of Oduduwa, and thus father of the Yoruba nation. --- One of his bashoruns, war generals by the name of Afonja was sent sent to the northern Illorin terriorty to defend the nation of Oduduwa. Afonja had won many wars previously, and the king trusted him immensely, but when he got to Illorin, a Fulani adviser named-Ajimi or Alimi-? (I forgot his name) helped him win an important battle against the invaders. Afonja appreciated the Fulanis advise so much, then the Fulani adviced him to rebel against the king of Oyo empire with all sorts of false promises (sounds much like today's situation).
After breaking from the king of Oyo emepire, Afonja himself became vulnerable to the Fulanis, and his children were eventually chased out of the palace by the children of the Fulani advicer"

I never really heard much about Ooni, but Ife was the capital, I think.

Now, how does that sound Katsumoto

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mostly true but a few corrections. Afonja was the Aare Onaka-kanfo (the number one general of the Oyo Army). The Aare being so powerful was not allowed to stay in Oyo Ile (similar to how Roman generals could not enter Rome). Afonja sent an empty calabash to the Alaafin signifying that he no longer accepted his authority. By tradition, the Alaafin must commit suicide which he did but only after Cursing Afonja. Most of the curses came to pass. Afonja invited Alimi after learning of his powers. The Fulani scholar's name was Alimi and it was Alimi's son, Abdusalam, who betrayed Afonja.

@post
How time flies, I never could believe that there would be controversy and arguement about superiority of Alaafin over Ooni, but times have changed greatly in the last one and half centuries of distortion. In the old times, Ooni could not even compared with other Yoruba king like Alaketu, Onsabe, Orangun etc who are the royal houses of Yorubaland of which Oyo was the centre of the Empire. What was the causes of the many Yoruba civil wars, was it not partly due to the harshness of the Oyo Empire tributarians? As in it came to a time when the reps of the empire were putting burden upon all other royal houses. All royal houses in Yoruba paid tributes to Oyo Empire. As a matter of fact each royal house in Yoruba land fought to get independence from Oyo including Ife, Ife was the least in militarily, it was recorded that Ife actually used wisdom to free from paying tribute to Oyo, because they were never a match for any war with a detachment of Oyo Empire armies located in Ede headed by Timi Agbale Olofa Ina, Ogbomosho headed by Elemoso and later by Soun, Abeokuta headed by Lisabi, Offa headed by Onikoyi, to mention just a few, all under the command of Aare.

I remebered around 1987, when Aalafin wanted to coronate MKO Abiola as Aare Onakakanfo of Yorubaland, Ooni went to court but was dismissed, he wanted to usurpe the power of Aalafin to install Aare in Yorubalnd, the court told him that it is only Aalafin that could appoint ne Aare for Yorubaland. The Aare reports to Aalafin, and they always live on the outskirt and not within Oyo City. We had such Aare as Aare Ikunrumi, Aare Afonja, Aare Latosa, etc. Infact Ibadan was a military camp of the Oyo Empire, the likes of Bashorun Ibikunle, Ogunmola were all Oyo Empire warriorss. Ooni was never in the picture, Infact Aalafin coronated all Obas in Yorubaland, there was no roaylty or royal family in Ife, that is why Ooni never had any crown nor was any Ooni in Ife ever coronated by Aalafin. Ife is significant for Yoruba as their origin but there was no son of Oduduwa that remained in Ife, all went out to seek new lands and established their domain.

It is unfortunate that OOni is arrogating power it does not have to itself. It was the main reason why Ooni opposed June 12 to deny Aalafin  the priviledge of been supported by MKO. Ooni was a political creation of the AG/Awolowo. The fore fathers of the current Ooni were exposed to western education earlier and they used it to promote the dynasty of Ooni. Oba Adesoji Aderemi was a minister of old western region, they used political powers to checkmate the Aalafin dynasty with conniviance of Awolowo, that was why Aalfin had never supported Awolowo, infact, Awolowo drove the father of the current Aalafin to exile to die in an island in Calabar. So pple should understand the enemity btw aalafin and Awolowo, the same reason why Aalafin supported Akintola against Awolowo thate led to Wetie of the wild wild west fame.

It is a distortion of History for Ooni to lay claim to any superiority over Aalafin, it is an abnormality and unfortunate. Ife has a special place in Yorubal history, bu never Ooni dynasty, it was a political creation and promoted politically.

Katsumoto:

You can defend him for all I care but the fact is that he personifies everything that is wrong with the institution of Kings. As for personal achievement, not everybody is able to sell his soul for a few coins. I know more about your king than you may think. Not everyone gets their facts from newspapers; some see things happen.

You want to start cursing people now or you are going to report them? Eni to ba sepe, ori e ati awon omo e lo ma lo. Please respect yourself and leave the curses out.

Bring it. The floor is open. . .

Gentlemen lets not mix sentiments and bias with facts and attempt to alter history. The fact remains that Oduduwa  and not Alafin is the father of Yorubaland. Oduduwa lived and died in Ile ife and not Oyo.

The 1st Alafan was Oduduwa's son who with his children went on to build the strongest Yoruba empire at the time. Alafin became powerful, perhaps the most powerful king in Yorubaland but that does not make him the father of the Yorubaland. Cos like the 1st Alafin, there were many other sons of Oduduwa who settled and built other Yoruba kingdoms. Ooni is the one that maintains Oduduwa's throne in Ife, and that also explain why Ife was sacred and should remain sacred to every right thinking Yorubaman cos most of our fathers came from Ife. And it is our traditional belief in Yoruba land that  no matter how powerful a child is, he should never demand honour from his father, and this is where Alafin goofed. It is beyond the current people sitting on those thrones, it is about the thrones. Yoruba 'isenbaiye' (tradition) should always remain sacred.


Yes I also agree that these monarchies have lost most of their usefulness, many of them misbehaved and are still misbehaving, but they remain the custodian of our history, culture and traditions and no matter what progress and development we seek, they must not come at cost of losing our history, culture and tradition. And we should not worry so much about them because they are no longer the reason we are not making progress and it doesn't cost us so much to maintain them.

Katsumoto:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mostly true but a few corrections. Afonja was the Aare Onaka-kanfo (the number one general of the Oyo Army). The Aare being so powerful was not allowed to stay in Oyo Ile (similar to how Roman generals could not enter Rome). Afonja sent an empty calabash to the Alaafin signifying that he no longer accepted his authority. By tradition, the Alaafin must commit suicide which he did but only after Cursing Afonja. Most of the curses came to pass. Afonja invited Alimi after learning of his powers. The Fulani scholar's name was Alimi and it was Alimi's son, Abdusalam, who betrayed Afonja.

Thanks chief, I move that the whole N/L house make you the Aare of this Nairaland