bigfrancis21:


Lol. Olukwumis have been present in Delta Igbo land for over 500 years? Not true. Their settlement in the area is quite recent - about 200 to 300 years or 4 to 5 generations ago, which explains why the language sort of survived till now.

Second, since the Olukwumis still remember where exactly in Ondo state they came from, they are always free to return to their ancestral land. No Igbo, be it on NL or in real life, has tried to 'force' them to be anything they aren't. If for nothing, we gave them space and succor when they fled their original hometown and landed in our area as refugees, and they should be grateful for that for letting them in when they needed safety the most. Over time, natural adaptation took its course and most of them became Igbonized and switched to Igbo language, name and culture. However, given the option to return to their ancestral Ondo state, I doubt if most would want to, except the fanatical minority who are deeply interested in that. Over 70% of these people are deeply as Igbo as any south-easterner in language, culture and names. Every single one of them speaks Igbo as first language or maybe some speak it as second language and a much lesser percentage (especially the elderly) are bilingual in Olukwumi or an Olukwumi-Igbo mix as well. As for suddenly giving up Igbo and speaking Olukwumi only I doubt if this is feasible because Igbo language is what connects them to the greater Anioma Igbo and deciding to let go of the language would not benefit them in any way, alienate them from the greater Anioma fold and remind them of their 'immigrant' status in Delta state.

If you doubt, the years of emigration from Ondo Égi–Akure—Owo axis, to Bini, was during which King? since you have more information at your disposal. I am sure you know . The migration to that region is within the years I have mentioned. I belonged to the group of Yorubas that is careful before asserting any opinion or information, I am sure, you know, if you doubt, Check my previous posts and verify my opinions or information, if it's not coherent. Like I had mentioned earlier in my previous post , the years of existence of Olukumi in that region is over 500 years. And you are absolutely wrong to have claimed Ibos gave them land in that community ,when in actual fact people look for greener pasture and avoidance of trouble and where seem best of a location through the dictates of IFA .You truly underestimated the religion of Yoruba ? IFA direction was a determinant factor for emigration. Ibos were never an organised group of people under a king. The Parliamentarian systems was what was tenable in the ibo villages not until recent past. Isnt it intriguing for Obi of Ontisha to have also claimed Odua displaced Ibos(Igbò) at ILE IFE? Funny set of people are you guys. I can't in a lifetime imagine, you of all people, could claim and infer Ibos gave Olukumi land to stay? This what I referred to ; Nairaland egocentrism of your kind and you still proof me right, when I had almost thought I goofed.

Olu317:
If you doubt, the years of emigration from Ondo Égi–Akure—Owo axis, to Bini, was during which King? since you have more information at your disposal. I am sure you know . The migration to that region is within the years I have mentioned. I belonged to the group of Yorubas that is careful before asserting any opinion or information, I am sure, you know, if you doubt, Check my previous posts and verify my opinions or information, if it's not coherent. Like I had mentioned earlier in my previous post , the years of existence of Olukumi in that region is over 500 years. And you are absolutely wrong to have claimed Ibos gave them land in that community ,when in actual fact people look for greener pasture and avoidance of trouble and where seem best of a location through the dictates of IFA .You truly underestimated the religion of Yoruba ? IFA direction was a determinant factor for emigration. Ibos were never an organised group of people under a king. The Parliamentarian systems was what was tenable in the ibo villages not until recent past. Isnt it intriguing for Obi of Ontisha to have also claimed Odua displaced Ibos(Igbò) at ILE IFE? Funny set of people are you guys. I can't in a lifetime imagine, you of all people, could claim and infer Ibos gave Olukumi land to stay? This what I referred to ; Nairaland egocentrism of your kind and you still proof me right, when I had almost thought I goofed.

Really funny stuff. Igbos gave Olukumi people land who gives that much land

But the Olukumi cannot have been up to 500 years in that area, that is as old as Ondo city which is highly improbable. The language factor is too strongly linked to yorubaland(the francis guy tried underplaying that to make it seem the dialect is dying) such that is it unlike for them to have been amidst Igbo speakers for over 500 years. They have had only 24 Olozas, too small a number for "over 500 years" of monarchy
The names of the early olozas are typical post-1700AD Yoruba names

macof:


Really funny stuff. Igbos gave Olukumi people land who gives that much land

But the Olukumi cannot have been up to 500 years in that area, that is as old as Ondo city which is highly improbable. The language factor is too strongly linked to yorubaland(the francis guy tried underplaying that to make it seem the dialect is dying) such that is it unlike for them to have been amidst Igbo speakers for over 500 years. They have had only 24 Olozas, too small a number for "over 500 years" of monarchy
The names of the early olozas are typical post-1700AD Yoruba names

Bigfancis is your man to inquire from as regard how Ibos gave land to Olukumi. And you seem to forget that before the king list exists, people had small settlement and organisation thus begun through which a royal or noble lineage who might be on emigration could stumble on such settlement of his kinsmen and eventual settling down. Again ,700AD – 2000AD is 300 years. Beside this, there are incoherent as regard date specification and some duke/king could have had a tenure that last more than half a century . From the period of migration through this reign of different kings in Bini. These people had settled down in that region more than 500 years. Do the probability analysis of it.

Olu317:
Bigfancis is your man to inquire from as regard how Ibos gave land to Olukumi. And you seem to forget that before the king list exists, people had small settlement and organisation thus begun through which a royal or noble lineage who might be on emigration could stumble on such settlement of his kinsmen and eventual settling down. Again ,700AD – 2000AD is 300 years. Beside this, there are incoherent as regard date specification and some duke/king could have had a tenure that last more than half a century . From the period of migration through this reign of different kings in Bini. These people had settled down in that region more than 500 years. Do the probability analysis of it.

The analysis are clear... take a look at other towns that are 500 years or more they have a list of around 40 kings.
Oloza is "oloja" in standard Yoruba dialect and this title is for leaders of small towns and villages so the idea of "small settlements before the king list" is out of it. . Oloza Adetola could not have reigned as early as 1500AD. That's not even a typical 1500AD Yoruba name

Of course when you have better reasons to believe otherwise please post them

macof:


The analysis are clear... take a look at other towns that are 500 years or more they have a list of around 40 kings.
Oloza is "oloja" in standard Yoruba dialect and this title is for leaders of small towns and villages so the idea of "small settlements before the king list" is out of it. . Oloza Adetola could not have reigned as early as 1500AD. That's not even a typical 1500AD Yoruba name

Of course when you have better reasons to believe otherwise please post them

“A Yoruba Enclave in the Heart of Aniocha in Delta State " , – Nigerian Tribune/Banji Aluko. You can read it up the experience the interviewer had with the Prince Adebowale Ochei who spoke in behalf of The King, Ayo Isinyemezethe via emotanafricana.com. I quote “According to him, history gave it that the Ugbodu Oluku mi speaking people migrated from Owo/Akure axis in the present Ondo State between 9th and 11th century AD to settle down in Benin during the reign of King Ogiso of Benin." This simply imply the Yoruba people had settled down briefly before Oranmiyan moved in towards Edo and they were different people because Ogiso has no meaning in Yoruba etymology. And they moved out in phases because of an Ogiso neglected wife had a son and after consultation with their oracle ,the child was to be a sacrificed to the Ogiso gods but the child was not killed, fowl was killed instead. The point here is that ugbodumila existed because of threat to their lives when they cohabited with their host community ,which was Igodomigodo kingdom around 11th century. This were the first set of settlers that left Edo to Ewohimi before their emigration . If you feel there aren't older than 500 years in Ugbodumila, I have no reason to change your opinion but the People ,through their spokesman mentioned this.

Ibos were never an organised group of people under a king. The Parliamentarian systems was what was tenable in the ibo villages not until recent past.


This is what I hate about Yoloboid entities.

Are you infering that monarchical systems of government is a better organized system than republican system laced with Gerontocracy most Igbos ran?

If that is true, then why is the modern civilized world jettising the crude unsophisticated monarchical systems for republics and democracy?

Igbos didn't exist in villages, we existed in towns, made up of many villages.

bigfrancis21:


Lol. Olukwumis have been present in Delta Igbo land for over 500 years? Not true. Their settlement in the area is quite recent - about 200 to 300 years or 4 to 5 generations ago, which explains why the language sort of survived till now.

Second, since the Olukwumis still remember where exactly in Ondo state they came from, they are always free to return to their ancestral land. No Igbo, be it on NL or in real life, has tried to 'force' them to be anything they aren't. If for nothing, we gave them space and succor when they fled their original hometown and landed in our area as refugees, and they should be grateful for that for letting them in when they needed safety the most. Over time, natural adaptation took its course and most of them became Igbonized and switched to Igbo language, name and culture. However, given the option to return to their ancestral Ondo state, I doubt if most would want to, except the fanatical minority who are deeply interested in that. Over 70% of these people are deeply as Igbo as any south-easterner in language, culture and names. Every single one of them speaks Igbo as first language or maybe some speak it as second language and a much lesser percentage (especially the elderly) are bilingual in Olukwumi or an Olukwumi-Igbo mix as well. As for suddenly giving up Igbo and speaking Olukwumi only I doubt if this is feasible because Igbo language is what connects them to the greater Anioma Igbo and deciding to let go of the language would not benefit them in any way, alienate them from the greater Anioma fold and remind them of their 'immigrant' status in Delta state.

Olukumis had fully assimilated into Enu-ani( Igbo) culture of their neighbors.
They are like those Igbo communities in Kogi, they have no option but to assimilate into the culture of of their neighbors, just like those Igbos became Igala, so did Olukumi become Igbo.

The first miss Nigeria of Igbo descent was miss Anyamelume Helen, who won the beauty pageant in 1958.
She was a proud Igbo woman,flaunted her Igbo ethnicity and was celebrated by the Igbo union then.
She was an Olukumi woman from the town of Ugbodu.


Some of them that suffer from identity crisis would at worst claim to be of Anioma ethinic group and might even claim to be natives of Issele ukwu, since Issele Ukwu is the biggest town in their vicinity.

https://www.vanguardngr.com/2012/08/how-miss-nigeria-58-died/

macof:


The analysis are clear... take a look at other towns that are 500 years or more they have a list of around 40 kings.
Oloza is "oloja" in standard Yoruba dialect and this title is for leaders of small towns and villages so the idea of "small settlements before the king list" is out of it. . Oloza Adetola could not have reigned as early as 1500AD. That's not even a typical 1500AD Yoruba name

Of course when you have better reasons to believe otherwise please post them

Frankly inferring, I do not intend to change your opinion as regard Olukumi but the Prince of the town spoke in behalf of the community and I hope you can read the excerpt on http://emotanafricana.com ; A Yoruba Enclave in the Heart of Aniocha in Delta State – Nigerian Tribune by Banji Aluko.
I quote a piece from it, “ Prince Adebowale Ochei, who later arrived the scene, volunteered to speak on behalf of the king, H.R.M. Ayo Isinyemeze, the Oloza (Obi) of Ugbodu. According to him, history gave it that the Ugbodu Oluku mi speaking people migrated from Owo/Akure axis in the present Ondo State between 9th and 11th century AD to settle down in Benin during the reign of King Ogiso of Benin."
This showed that Ugbodumila–Olukumi identify themselves differently from their host community,which was Igodomigo and for fear of death ,they eloped the community. From the interview granted by the prince, it showed Oranmiyan hadn't gone to Edo. Considering the year of emigration to Edo around 11th century. So, the emigration was in phases because Ewohimi was a place dear to their heart because they remembered emigration through their to Ugbodumila. And the 500 years can't be contested but if you use King list ,you will miss the point. After all, Ginuwa met others before he began to reign over Itsekiri. This is the point perspective I chose and information based on interview with the settlement at Ugbodu through Prince Adebowale.

Olu317:
“A Yoruba Enclave in the Heart of Aniocha in Delta State " , – Nigerian Tribune/Banji Aluko. You can read it up the experience the interviewer had with the Prince Adebowale Ochei who spoke in behalf of The King, Ayo Isinyemezethe via emotanafricana.com. I quote “According to him, history gave it that the Ugbodu Oluku mi speaking people migrated from Owo/Akure axis in the present Ondo State between 9th and 11th century AD to settle down in Benin during the reign of King Ogiso of Benin." This simply imply the Yoruba people had settled down briefly before Oranmiyan moved in towards Edo and they were different people because Ogiso has no meaning in Yoruba etymology. And they moved out in phases because of an Ogiso neglected wife had a son and after consultation with their oracle ,the child was to be a sacrificed to the Ogiso gods but the child was not killed, fowl was killed instead. The point here is that ugbodumila existed because of threat to their lives when they cohabited with their host community ,which was Igodomigodo kingdom around 11th century. This were the first set of settlers that left Edo to Ewohimi before their emigration . If you feel there aren't older than 500 years in Ugbodumila, I have no reason to change your opinion but the People ,through their spokesman mentioned this.

Good point. However the story still isn't complete
Lots of loopholes and questions that arise from a claim like this
I think even you can agree to that

macof:


Good point. However the story still isn't complete
Lots of loopholes and questions that arise from a claim like this
I think even you can agree to that

Of course, there are loopholes in the account ,which can be as a result of oral historical transfer from one generation to another. The 9th century, I can't really agree to it but obviously, It was an Ogiso king that was reigning ,they claimed. This could be during Oranmiyan escapade, which was the reason I pinned the calculation to be over 500 years . The probability of the escapade of Oranmiyan might even be connected to emigration because the account did mentioned chaotic situation and it is only chaotic situation that can make people live where they went to trade and live. As at when Oranmiyan was fighting to gain control of the heartland of Igodomigodo which he didn't for obvious reason, which I concluded as IFA dictate. Ogiamie lineage who rightfully was the Ogiso descendants lineage was reigning in Edo–Igodomogodo and did ruled for centuries because during the reign of Oranmiyan at Usama, he could not enter into the core area but was only able to win some part . And these accounted for two Kings in Usama–Igodomogodo , the first one being a yoruba prince from ILE IFE with Oba title and an indigenous breed with Ogiso title . There is no iota of doubt that Olukumi had the knowledge of an Ogiso ruler , who was desperate to use his son of detested wife as sacrifice, according to their oral account(the reason for using human as sacrifice is for spiritual power acquisition ). The implication of the Lukumi's account is that a desperate Ogiamien was in charge of Igodomogodo, when they flee in drove because of fear of being used as sacrifice . And during the period of war, the enemies within are used as scapegoats and sacrifices. Furthermore, it was Oba Ewedo that crushed through from Usama through to Igodomogodo,which was the Heart of Idu Kingdom and by so doing disposed the Ogiamien Ode ( which brought forth the traditional rite of lending land to ILE IFE's Son–Known as Oba Bini and Ogiso –Ogiamien dynasty as the landowner and the Oba a tenant on the land in their custody). This shows that the migration were in different waves; slightly pre Oranmiyan–Post Oranmiyan and during the reign of Ogiamien Ode around 12th-13th century. The last in drove emigration was during Oba Ewedo which is the one that best suit their account.

Olu317:
If you doubt, the years of emigration from Ondo Égi–Akure—Owo axis, to Bini, was during which King? since you have more information at your disposal. I am sure you know . The migration to that region is within the years I have mentioned. I belonged to the group of Yorubas that is careful before asserting any opinion or information, I am sure, you know, if you doubt, Check my previous posts and verify my opinions or information, if it's not coherent. Like I had mentioned earlier in my previous post , the years of existence of Olukumi in that region is over 500 years. And you are absolutely wrong to have claimed Ibos gave them land in that community ,when in actual fact people look for greener pasture and avoidance of trouble and where seem best of a location through the dictates of IFA .You truly underestimated the religion of Yoruba ? IFA direction was a determinant factor for emigration. Ibos were never an organised group of people under a king. The Parliamentarian systems was what was tenable in the ibo villages not until recent past. Isnt it intriguing for Obi of Ontisha to have also claimed Odua displaced Ibos(Igbò) at ILE IFE? Funny set of people are you guys. I can't in a lifetime imagine, you of all people, could claim and infer Ibos gave Olukumi land to stay? This what I referred to ; Nairaland egocentrism of your kind and you still proof me right, when I had almost thought I goofed.

I do not agree with you. The settlement of the Olukwumi people is no earlier than the 18th century. They are a fairly recent immigrant group to Delta Igboland, which explains why the language survived up till now, especially in Ugbodu, given its location at the extreme of Delta Igbo North which helped to minimize the natural acculturation through which 3 other Olukwumi villages became completely Igbonized.

bigfrancis21:


I do not agree with you. The settlement of the Olukwumi people is no earlier than the 18th century. They are a fairly recent immigrant group to Delta Igboland, which explains why the language survived up till now, especially in Ugbodu, given its location at the extreme of Delta Igbo North which helped to minimize the natural acculturation through which 3 other Olukwumi villages became completely Igbonized.

You are absolute wrong bro. Even before 1840s, Olukumi were already in Cuba and other part of the Americas. From, where did they capture this people? I need your explanation on this since you clsim 1800. I had thought, you would had agreed to my assertion because the people through their prince ,who spoke in behalf of Ugbodu kingdom's King in my last post did mentioned their actual migration between 9th-11th century,outside Yoruba enclave . And the man still affirm to the fact that a reigning Ogiso king was the reason they left Idu in drove. I had expected you to do research from such account if you understand the period these event took place. On language's survival, you are still wrong because, some of the reasons language could survive are;
1. homogeneous settlement of the speakers
2. The ability for the speakers of the language to search and identify with speakers of the language.
3. The same religious practice of the speakers which aid the survival of the language.
4. Affiliation to ILE IFE.
5. The monarchy system of the Yorubas.

Olu317:
You are absolute wrong bro. Even before 1840s, Olukumi were already in Cuba and other part of the Americas. From, where did they capture this people? I need your explanation on this since you clsim 1800. I had thought, you would had agreed to my assertion because the people through their prince ,who spoke in behalf of Ugbodu kingdom's King in my last post did mentioned their actual migration between 9th-11th century,outside Yoruba enclave . And the man still affirm to the fact that a reigning Ogiso king was the reason they left Idu in drove. I had expected you to do research from such account if you understand the period these event took place. On language's survival, you are still wrong because, some of the reasons language could survive are;
1. homogeneous settlement of the speakers
2. The ability for the speakers of the language to search and identify with speakers of the language.
3. The same religious practice of the speakers which aid the survival of the language.
4. Affiliation to ILE IFE.
5. The monarchy system of the Yorubas.

You are mixing things up. I was not referring to the beginning of the existence of Olukwumi people in general. I was referring to the arrival of these people from Ondo State to Delta State. Their kith and kin may have existed in Ondo state since 9th or 10th century etc but those that arrived in Delta State (present-day Odiani clan) are recent migrants. That's the point.

bigfrancis21:


You are mixing things up. I was not referring to the beginning of the existence of Olukwumi people in general. I was referring to the arrival of these people from Ondo State to Delta State. Their kith and kin may have existed in Ondo state since 9th or 10th century etc but those that arrived in Delta State (present-day Odiani clan) are recent migrants. That's the point.

It seems you didnt get the drift.I only reaffirm the tentative period of emigration from Ondo axis as 9th–11th century,which date may not be too accurate despite,information from the horse's mouth. This is the point. However, the information as regard emigration to Igbodumila had a reason and the major reason of in drove emigration was PERSECUTION from the host community. And the host community had an Ogiso lineage on the throne. There are two period that such wars took place before the Oba Bini gained total control of Idu–Igodomigodo. These period were Oranmiyan period around late 11th century and 13–14th century of Oba Ewedo .This information showed practically the period of Ewedo against Ogiamien lineage ruling Idu because, during Oranmiyan, Yoruba couldn't had left Idu in droves because he didn't conquer the whole Igodomigodo before he left. And the period of persecution range from 13th–14th century,when Ogiamen Ode lost a bittered well fought war against Ewedo. Anything outside this is false.

Olu317:
It seems you didnt get the drift.I only reaffirm the tentative period of emigration from Ondo axis as 9th–11th century,which date may not be too accurate despite,information from the horse's mouth. This is the point. However, the information as regard emigration to Igbodumila had a reason and the major reason of in drove emigration was PERSECUTION from the host community. And the host community had an Ogiso lineage on the throne. There are two period that such wars took place before the Oba Bini gained total control of Idu–Igodomigodo. These period were Oranmiyan period around late 11th century and 13–14th century of Oba Ewedo .This information showed practically the period of Ewedo against Ogiamien lineage ruling Idu because, during Oranmiyan, Yoruba couldn't had left Idu in droves because he didn't conquer the whole Igodomigodo before he left. And the period of persecution range from 13th–14th century,when Ogiamen Ode lost a bittered well fought war against Ewedo. Anything outside this is false.

Their language is not dead as Bigfrancis would have us believe. I have a friend who is from there and everybody thinks she is Yoruba(her name is typically Yoruba) until she told us she is from Delta state ugbodu to be precise although her second name is igbo

darfay:


Their language is not dead as Bigfrancis would have us believe. I have a friend who is from there and everybody thinks she is Yoruba(her name is typically Yoruba) until she told us she is from Delta state ugbodu to be precise although her second name is igbo

I never said the language was dead. It is the most alive in Ugbodu village of all Olukwumi villages. Yea, some of them have switched to Olukwumi first names.

darfay:


Their language is not dead as Bigfrancis would have us believe. I have a friend who is from there and everybody thinks she is Yoruba(her name is typically Yoruba) until she told us she is from Delta state ugbodu to be precise although her second name is igbo

Yes, he is of the opinion that the language is waning out ,which I disagree. In fact, in places like Americas, the language refuses to give in to over 400 million Spanish and over 200 million Portuguese speakers in Brazil. The propensity of the language surviving in west Africa is very high because, many of these Yorubas in secluded environment still find themselves coming back to the mainstream of Yoruba land. An ethnic group who believe in the supremacy of their language over others, irrespective of the contesting language with it, is Yoruba. In Bénin , the largest group in that enclave is Fongbe ,yet the Yoruba language is second franca lingua after French. This is how important the Language is adored and spoken. In Togo, we have Seti , Jama and Igberiko who are predominantly Ife(Togo) . Other Ife ( Togo ) villages include Alabata , Okutaya , Efujaye, Oko Asade , Asoko Ayepada and Yanmosile .There is Ife Benin , Tsabe , Ajase and Idaatsa who are Yoruba group over there who are hell bent in identifying with Yoruba of ILE IFE etc because oral transmission of their émigration to their present abode is held firmly in their hearts. In Ghana, Yoruba descendants, from Tamale, Wa, Lawra and Nandom,Kumasi, Sekondi, Koforidua, Ashiaman, Cape Coast, Tamale still, acknowledged their ancestry from Yoruba land . I doubt if non Yoruba understand the manners at which Yoruba love their language and attachment to their oral history. I really doubt.

Olu317:
Yes, he is of the opinion that the language is waning out ,which I disagree. In fact, in places like Americas, the language refuses to give in to Spanish.

You don't understand a bit.

That Yorubas in Cuba are called lukumi doesnt mean they are from the olukumi of delta state.
"Oluku" is a very common word found in eastern and central Yoruba dialects. And what is Olukumi language gan? Nothing like that. It's just a dialect of Yoruba language. So your reference to Cuba or the Americas should be a general Yoruba connection not Olukumi connection

Olu317:
You are absolute wrong bro. Even before 1840s, Olukumi were already in Cuba and other part of the Americas. From, where did they capture this people? I need your explanation on this since you clsim 1800. I had thought, you would had agreed to my assertion because the people through their prince ,who spoke in behalf of Ugbodu kingdom's King in my last post did mentioned their actual migration between 9th-11th century,outside Yoruba enclave . And the man still affirm to the fact that a reigning Ogiso king was the reason they left Idu in drove. I had expected you to do research from such account if you understand the period these event took place. On language's survival, you are still wrong because, some of the reasons language could survive are;
1. homogeneous settlement of the speakers
2. The ability for the speakers of the language to search and identify with speakers of the language.
3. The same religious practice of the speakers which aid the survival of the language.
4. Affiliation to ILE IFE.
5. The monarchy system of the Yorubas.

be careful how you take all this "the Prince said" "the Oba said" or the chief said. Many of them are not as traditionally grounded as they ought to and really do not speak of what they have in their traditions

I'm not saying the Prince is wrong but that is just a claim. A pity no significant academic historical research has been done on the Olukumi

Olu317:
Yes, he is of the opinion that the language is waning out ,which I disagree. In fact, in places like Americas, the language refuses to give in to over 400 million Spanish and over 200 million Portuguese speakers in Brazil. The propensity of the language surviving in west Africa is very high because, many of these Yorubas in secluded environment still find themselves coming back to the mainstream of Yoruba land. An ethnic group who believe in the supremacy of their language over others, irrespective of the contesting language with it, is Yoruba. In Bénin , the largest group in that enclave is Fongbe ,yet the Yoruba language is second franca lingua after French. This is how important the Language is adored and spoken. In Togo, we have Seti , Jama and Igberiko who are predominantly Ife(Togo) . Other Ife ( Togo ) villages include Alabata , Okutaya , Efujaye, Oko Asade , Asoko Ayepada and Yanmosile .There is Ife Benin , Tsabe , Ajase and Idaatsa who are Yoruba group over there who are hell bent in identifying with Yoruba of ILE IFE etc because oral transmission of their émigration to their present abode is held firmly in their hearts. In Ghana, Yoruba descendants, from Tamale, Wa, Lawra and Nandom,Kumasi, Sekondi, Koforidua, Ashiaman, Cape Coast, Tamale still, acknowledged their ancestry from Yoruba land . I doubt if non Yoruba understand the manners at which Yoruba love their language and attachment to their oral history. I really doubt.

You see sometimes the picture some self-professed African historians paint online tends to differ from the reality on ground. I just wanted to point out that Olukumi/lakumi/Yoruba language is not alive per se in Latin America. Your idea of a living language is different from what is officially classified living language. A living language is one which is actively used at home, in church, in the market, amongst generations etc. In Brazil or Cuba, Lukumi is extinct in that sense, and is only used as a liturgical language by Ifa priests during religious ceremonies, just as Latin is sometimes used in the Catholic church. Also, understand that Ifa adherents usually don't understand what's being said by the priest just as most catholics don't understand Latin sometimes used in mass. Thus, just as no one speaks Latin as their native language in the world today, there are no native speakers of Lukumi in Spanish America. After Ifa ceremonies are over, everyone returns home speaking Spanish or Portuguese as the case may be. A few people may have a smattering of Olukumi here and there which they individually learned on their own, but if a language is not being actively used then the language is extinct in that area/region. Look up UNESCO's classification of language strength. In that sense, if Olukumi is only understood or read off from a book during religious ceremonies, by dedicated Ifa priests, then it did give into Spanish or Portguese in these countries. This is just being able to see things as they are without being subjective about it.

bigfrancis21:


You see sometimes the picture some self-professed African historians paint online tends to differ from the reality on ground. I just wanted to point out that Olukumi/lakumi/Yoruba language is not alive per se in Latin America. Your idea of a living language is different from what is officially classified living language. A living language is one which is actively used at home, in church, in the market, amongst generations etc. In Brazil or Cuba, Lukumi is extinct in that sense, and is only used as a liturgical language by Ifa priests during religious ceremonies, just as Latin is sometimes used in the Catholic church. Also, understand that Ifa adherents usually don't understand what's being said by the priest just as most catholics don't understand Latin sometimes used in mass. Thus, just as no one speaks Latin as their native language in the world today, there are no native speakers of Lukumi in Spanish America. After Ifa ceremonies are over, everyone returns home speaking Spanish or Portuguese as the case may be. A few people may have a smattering of Olukumi here and there which they individually learned on their own, but if a language is not being actively used then the language is extinct in that area/region. Look up UNESCO's classification of language strength. In that sense, if Olukumi is only understood or read off from a book during religious ceremonies, by dedicated Ifa priests, then it did give into Spanish or Portguese in these countries. This is just being able to see things as they are without being subjective about it.

Efiwe

Ishilove:

Efiwe

Nwanyi Biafra malu ajo akwukwo

bigfrancis21:


You see sometimes the picture some self-professed African historians paint online tends to differ from the reality on ground. I just wanted to point out that Olukumi/lakumi/Yoruba language is not alive per se in Latin America. Your idea of a living language is different from what is officially classified living language. A living language is one which is actively used at home, in church, in the market, amongst generations etc. In Brazil or Cuba, Lukumi is extinct in that sense, and is only used as a liturgical language by Ifa priests during religious ceremonies, just as Latin is sometimes used in the Catholic church. Also, understand that Ifa adherents usually don't understand what's being said by the priest just as most catholics don't understand Latin sometimes used in mass. Thus, just as no one speaks Latin as their native language in the world today, there are no native speakers of Lukumi in Spanish America. After Ifa ceremonies are over, everyone returns home speaking Spanish or Portuguese as the case may be. A few people may have a smattering of Olukumi here and there which they individually learned on their own, but if a language is not being actively used then the language is extinct in that area/region. Look up UNESCO's classification of language strength. In that sense, if Olukumi is only understood or read off from a book during religious ceremonies, by dedicated Ifa priests, then it did give into Spanish or Portguese in these countries. This is just being able to see things as they are without being subjective about it.

Please the guy is not a historian o


And why the sudden shift from the Olukumi of delta to Lukumi of the Americas?

macof:


Please the guy is not a historian o


And why the sudden shift from the Olukumi of delta to Lukumi of the Americas?

It was just in response to some certain statements that he made in his previous post.

bigfrancis21:


You see sometimes the picture some self-professed African historians paint online tends to differ from the reality on ground. I just wanted to point out that Olukumi/lakumi/Yoruba language is not alive per se in Latin America. Your idea of a living language is different from what is officially classified living language. A living language is one which is actively used at home, in church, in the market, amongst generations etc. In Brazil or Cuba, Lukumi is extinct in that sense, and is only used as a liturgical language by Ifa priests during religious ceremonies, just as Latin is sometimes used in the Catholic church. Also, understand that Ifa adherents usually don't understand what's being said by the priest just as most catholics don't understand Latin sometimes used in mass. Thus, just as no one speaks Latin as their native language in the world today, there are no native speakers of Lukumi in Spanish America. After Ifa ceremonies are over, everyone returns home speaking Spanish or Portuguese as the case may be. A few people may have a smattering of Olukumi here and there which they individually learned on their own, but if a language is not being actively used then the language is extinct in that area/region. Look up UNESCO's classification of language strength. In that sense, if Olukumi is only understood or read off from a book during religious ceremonies, by dedicated Ifa priests, then it did give into Spanish or Portguese in these countries. This is just being able to see things as they are without being subjective about it.

Again,you are wrong because you don't know much nor did you took serious time to read more about Cubas history as regard Yorubas. First, read written account of Lydia Cabrera who wrote Anagó VocabularioLucumi:El Yoruba que se habla en Cuba(Anago Vocabulary: Yoruba that is spoken in Cuba)which is catalogued over 6900 words with contextual usage and extended definition. How can you not know about this bro?
Secondly, There are also libretas. Libretas is a booklets which is unpublished but handwritten that contains ritual advice, secrets, terminologies and genealogy of a casa-tempo. It is usually handed down in Anago community from godfather to godchild. Have you no knowledge that there are proper documentation of households of Anago in Cuba?
Thirdly,Studies carried out to know Africa slaves were done by Fernando oritz(1906,1916),Ronald Lacahtañere(1939),Pedro Deschamps Chapeaux(1970),Rafael Lopez Valdez(1986)Jesus Guanche(2009) and others showed that Lucumi speakers between sixteenth century to nineteenth century, 38.81% were Yorubas brought to Cuba.Dont you know these?
Fourthly,Anago is a conglomerate of about six Yoruba clans in Cuba community. David Olmstead (1953) created the Anago phonemes Infact, Lucumi/Olukumi is used as a dialectical ritual language ,which is different from Lucumi / Olukumi as clan. Anago is what Yorubas are really called in Cuba. Have you no knowledge of this?
Research carried out by Lydia Cabrera is the largest amount of Anago text which produce definitive dictionary of the language. Even in the twentieth century, the language of the Anago was and still being used which has solidified the ritual language of the Lucumi.The fluent speaker of Anago may not be able to use the Anago Language in normal conversation but can be able to participate fully during Lucumi ritual, using Anago in normal conversation.And the major discovery of Lucumi/Olukumi pinpointed the role of the Lukumi slaves captured who were IFA priest sons captured and transported as slaves who had knowledge were the lead rebellion men in Cuba

macof:


You don't understand a bit.

That Yorubas in Cuba are called lukumi doesnt mean they are from the olukumi of delta state.
"Oluku" is a very common word found in eastern and central Yoruba dialects. And what is Olukumi language gan? Nothing like that. It's just a dialect of Yoruba language. So your reference to Cuba or the Americas should be a general Yoruba connection not Olukumi connection

I do understand perfectly well. There are about four ideologies that is associated to Lucumi. First, as a friendly form to identify same dialectical people in Cuba,which is termed as friend. Secondly, as a dialect in Cuba.Thirdly, as a ritual language within Anago - Yoruba community in Cuba before being accepted by few amongst other tribes in Cuba,such as Bantu-Congo and Efik people of Nigeria and the rest of non Yorubas outside Cuba and the world. Lastly, as it is related to some slaves exported to Cuba whose ancestry is linked to Lukumi in Igbodumila.

Olu317:
Again,you are wrong because you don't know much nor did you took serious time to read more about Cubas history as regard Yorubas. First, read written account of Lydia Cabrera who wrote Anagó VocabularioLucumi:El Yoruba que se habla en Cuba(Anago Vocabulary: Yoruba that is spoken in Cuba)which is catalogued over 6900 words with contextual usage and extended definition. How can you not know about this bro?
Secondly, There are also libretas. Libretas is a booklets which is unpublished but handwritten that contains ritual advice, secrets, terminologies and genealogy of a casa-tempo. It is usually handed down in Anago community from godfather to godchild. Have you no knowledge that there are proper documentation of households of Anago in Cuba?
Thirdly,Studies carried out to know Africa slaves were done by Fernando oritz(1906,1916),Ronald Lacahtañere(1939),Pedro Deschamps Chapeaux(1970),Rafael Lopez Valdez(1986)Jesus Guanche(2009) and others showed that Lucumi speakers between sixteenth century to nineteenth century, 38.81% were Yorubas brought to Cuba.Dont you know these?
Fourthly,Anago is a conglomerate of about six Yoruba clans in Cuba community. David Olmstead (1953) created the Anago phonemes Infact, Lucumi/Olukumi is used as a dialectical ritual language ,which is different from Lucumi / Olukumi as clan. Anago is what Yorubas are really called in Cuba. Have you no knowledge of this?
Research carried out by Lydia Cabrera is the largest amount of Anago text which produce definitive dictionary of the language. Even in the twentieth century, the language of the Anago was and still being used which has solidified the ritual language of the Lucumi.The fluent speaker of Anago may not be able to use the Anago Language in normal conversation but can be able to participate fully during Lucumi ritual, using Anago in normal conversation.And the major discovery of Lucumi/Olukumi pinpointed the role of the Lukumi slaves captured who were IFA priest sons captured and transported as slaves who had knowledge were the lead rebellion men in Cuba

@bold...Basically, you wrote a long epistle on something that I already know just to end up saying the same exact thing I said earlier?

Olu317:
Again,you are wrong because you don't know much nor did you took serious time to read more about Cubas history as regard Yorubas. First, read written account of Lydia Cabrera who wrote Anagó VocabularioLucumi:El Yoruba que se habla en Cuba(Anago Vocabulary: Yoruba that is spoken in Cuba)which is catalogued over 6900 words with contextual usage and extended definition. How can you not know about this bro?

My thesis seeks to contribute to the sociolinguistic and anthropological literature
on African cultural retentions in Cuba by focusing on the evolution of a specific language
community. The Anagó speaking language community however, does not follow the
regular evolutionary pattern of other language communities because after the turn of the
century this language ceased to be acquired during childhood. Instead, many speakers
learned Anagó as adolescents or adults. In addition, the language became relegated for
10 use primarily in Afro-Cuban Lucumí rituals and not for the purpose of general
conversation. The use of Anagó is mostly in one direction, between a practitioner and
heaven, God and/or the ancestors. Because of this unique aspect of Anagó, textual and
audio documentation of Anagó language should be considered proof-of-life of the
community. In other words, the community must exist and be vital if it continues to
produce examples of its language.

The Anagó Language of Cuba
Maria J. Concordia (page 10)
http://digitalcommons.fiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1841&context=etd

bigfrancis21:


@bold...Basically, you wrote a long epistle on something that I already know just to end up saying the same exact thing I said earlier?

You still dont get it ? Call it whatever name you like . Anago is the Tribe and actual language being spoken amongst the Community of the Yorubas and Lukumi is also a dialect amongst the speaker of it while the ritual language that is being used for their Yoruba IFA tradition but you chose the part that you think is compatibles with you but failed to see who and what you termed as lost Language ,which is waning out but you are absolutely wrong.

bigfrancis21:




The Anagó Language of Cuba
Maria J. Concordia (page 10)
http://digitalcommons.fiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1841&context=etd

Oh I see! But the people I mentioned are set of people whose work can't be matched by many authors . These people are references in Educational sector as it relate to Yorubas in Cuba.

Cheers!

Olu317:
I do understand perfectly well. There are about four ideologies that is associated to Lucumi. First, as a friendly form to identify same dialectical people in Cuba,which is termed as friend. Secondly, as a dialect in Cuba.Thirdly, as a ritual language within Anago - Yoruba community in Cuba before being accepted by few amongst other tribes in Cuba,such as Bantu-Congo and Efik people of Nigeria and the rest of non Yorubas outside Cuba and the world. Lastly, as it is related to some slaves exported to Cuba whose ancestry is linked to Lukumi in Igbodumila.

Ancestry linked to Olukumi of Ugbodu? Because you see "Lucumi" and "Olukumi" Lmao. Ok
But what is the evidence to back up your claims?

macof:


Ancestry linked to Olukumi of Ugbodu? Because you see "Lucumi" and "Olukumi" Lmao. Ok
But what is the evidence to back up your claims?

You better change your perspective as regard Lukumi and not be like Bigfrancis that doesnt know that there is a big difference between ritual lukumi Language and Lukumi as a dialect within Anago community.
First,it was Lydia Cabrera that used the word ‘Anago', publicly (1970) in her publication to describe Yoruba descendants in Cuba. And other researchers followed suit. At first,Lukumi was a word used to describe some dialectical Yoruba settlement at first in cuba, which is different from other yorubas settlement in Cuba. This only testify to the fact that Olukumi people were part of the slaves sold into slavery. All Yorubas taken as slaves had a dialectical identity, which still exist today. Even in Cuba at present, As more Yorubas from Nigeria to Ghana have been settling down over there which is due to language and culture,which is the reason I informed that Bigfrancis inferred on opinion and not as it is in Cuba.

Note: I hope you will do your finding and learn more about Yorubas in Cuba.

Meaning of Lukumi is attached below.