Hello,
I saw a funny thread about some guys joking about witch craft. , was quite funny though.

Any way I want to ask interested members of Niara land with a vast knowledge of the occult and meta-physics to comment on their experience;and if need be, we might form a blog to discuss serious issues.
I hope to meet likeminded individuals who might be interested to have our own Nigerian mystical tradition free from western bias or tribal bias.

All through history, the development of the great powers and civilizations of the world started from the organisation of a unified Meta physical front and traditions. E.g. the rose- croix/Knight temple r's in Europe; the freemasons in the US; the priests of ancient Egypt; the Pythagorean’s /Eleusinian mystery of the ancient Greece, The Jesuits of the Catholic Church, Sufi’s in Islam etc.

Please this is serious stuff; I would appreciate it if meddlers and religious fanatics ignore this thread, cheers

@Poster
why don't you raise an issueso we can start debating on it

@ jargoon, nice point; Maybe we can start from any ideas on how to restructure the pathetic egregore of our nation, In my opinion, i wouldn't mind to know the interest of others before we debate on complex meta-physical principles.

what does egregore mean?

An egregore is a thought form or an entity formed by the mind of a group,school,tribe, a country, religious organization etc. These entities start out as being dependent on the collective mind of it's founders, if the entity is not properly institutionalised, it gets independent and out of control and forces it's will on the masses. people form egregores unknowingly almost every day  ; even the internet has it's own egregores, which is propergated by "memes". Egregores that are not properly institutionalized tend to become savage and destructive e.g. secret cults in Nigeria's higher institutions. Savage egregore require certain substances to get more powerful, the whole notion of rituals and sacrifices are propagated by savage egregores; these egregore tend to reward their host every time they are fed. The dilemma of blood money in the Nigerian society is an indicator of savage egregores at work. Taking the blood money rituals in Nigeria as a case study; it should be noted that the sacrifice does not bring out invisible money as depicted in stupid nollywood movies, but rather it strengthens the savage egregore and it becomes more powerful and helps it's members to achieve their diabolic aims. Savage egregores can be destroyed and controlled though, one example of the control and the destruction of egregores can be found in this igbo proverb, "when a god starts making demands for blood; all its statues should be burnt , the deity ignored and it's name should be forgotten ". The concept of egregores is more than this, but i hope this summary might help.

Based on description of this "egregore",i understand it as the collective "ego" of a groups of people.Am i correct?
BTW,i am also interseted in the thread even if my meta-physical knowledge is not so extensive,but i am very open-minded.

jackdaniel:

An egregore is a thought form or an entity formed by the mind of a group,school,tribe, a country, religious organization etc. These entities start out as being dependent on the collective mind of it's founders, if the entity is not properly institutionalised, it gets independent and out of control and forces it's will on the masses. people form egregores unknowingly almost every day ; even the internet has it's own egregores, which is propergated by "memes". Egregores that are not properly institutionalise tend to become savage and destructive e.g. secret cults in Nigeria's higher institutions. Savage egregore require certain substances to get more powerful, the whole notion of rituals and sacrifices are propagated by savage egregores; these egregore tend to reward their host every time they are fed. The dilemma of blood money in the Nigerian society is an indicator of savage egregores at work. Taking the blood money rituals in Nigeria as a case study; it should be noted that the sacrifice does not bring out invisible money as depicted in stupid nollywood movies, but rather it strengthens the savage egregore and it becomes more powerful and helps it's members to achieve their diabolic aims. Savage egregores can be destroyed and controlled though, one example of the control and the destruction of egregores can be found in this igbo proverb, "when a god starts making demands for blood; all its statues should be burnt , the deity ignored and it's name should be forgotten ". The concept of egregores is more than this, but i hope this summary might help.

Jungian, Jackdaniel? Impressive, though the ego is hardly ever collective. Do you mean the "Collective unconscious", or even "Conscious"? Seems that's what jagunlabi is asking us to create, to wit I would raise concern that he might be asking for the formation of a "egregore", without what he calls the negative aspect.

Do egregores exist as distinct entities or are they just part of the flow and transmutation of information?

All things are part of one massive flow. When you distinguish one part from the rest and try to act upon it, how realistic is that.

How do you kill an egregore? Does it not just evolve into something else?

@Jackdaniel
Thanx for the definiton i guess i have a good idea what it means now. With that in mind i can safly conclude that there are egregores within religions as well. For instance we have various christian denominations with very strong beliefs and practises not found in the bible. I guess the beliefs must have been started and imposed on them by their leaders and using their "spiritual" authority to enforce it.

Mr JackDaniels, how would you go about reforming the egregore of Nigeria. What is your evaluation of this egregore? Or rather what is your diagnosis of it.

(Is your opinion of it to be considered an egregore in it's own right?)

I wish that M_Nwankwo discovers this thread soon, cos I would be interested to know what his contribution to such a thread would be.

Is our Will or our Intent something separate from an egregore?

@jagunlabi & buda => it's nice you guys raised the question of the "egregores as a collective ego"?. My reply is this;  the egregore goes beyond the jungian collective ego;  a well formed egregore is linked to the the mind of it's host's, but it has it's own distinct ego. I could liken an egregore to a child who does the will of his parents and stops when he is 21, but unfortunately this child still has his umbilical codes attached to his parents. The notion of the egregore should not be confused with the universal mind or the Jungian archetypes. In the universal mind all ego's are nullified[1], while the Jungian archetypes are more or less patterns of human characteristics recorded in all societies[2], in my opinion i think the Jungian archetypes are patterns encoded in the human DNA.

@Pastor AIO => The truth to the best of my knowledge is; Egregore can be destroyed , but it is almost practically impossible. I agree with you that these are transmutations. The scary fact about this transmutation is it's ability to gain consciousness,  gaining consciousness isn't the main problem, they tend to develop personal egos; that is when the problem begins. In information tech and Artificial intelligence, scientist and computer engineers are also scared of machines gaining consciousness; and that point is termed as SINGULARITY. the singularity debate might seem like a fairy tale, right? but  presently carrying out my research thesis on the semantic web and machine learning , I think that the singularity point is drawing nearer than we can imagine, thanks to Allosphere[3], semantic web and AI. As for the analysis of the Nigerian egregore that will take me so much time to comment on it, but maybe we can talk about it as time goes on. Even if egregores cant be destroyed ; they can be institutionalized , controlled or at least rehabilitated.

@Jaggon => all religions have egregores, but some egregores are more organized and institutionalised. The older an egregore, the more knowledgeable and probably  the more powerful it is. Religious symbol's and sacred names in most religions serves as a doorway to the religious egregores. But in most religions the more potent/effective symbols and divine names are only known to those in high positions, thats why for example in the masonry you always hear a myth about the LOST WORD; or thats why priest of the church use strange names when performing exorcism,in islam you hear about the hidden 100th name of Allah etc. The names and the symbols given to the common man are of little value,  it's a pity most crazy religious fanatics around the world are only strengthening these egregores and giving more power to the few who have access to the potent symbols and divine names.

notes:
[1]Parmenides
[2](a)Trickster, hero, great mother , etc
[3]AlloSphere http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/joann_kuchera_morin_tours_the_allosphere.html

jackdaniel:

@Jaggon => all religions have egregores, but some egregores are more organized and institutionalised. The older an egregore, the more knowledgeable and probably the more powerful it is. Religious symbol's and sacred names in most religions serves as a doorway to the religious egregores. But in most religions the more potent/effective symbols and divine names are only known to those in high positions, thats why for example in the masonry you always hear a myth about the LOST WORD; or thats why priest of the church use strange names when performing exorcism,in islam you hear about the hidden 100th name of Allah etc. The names and the symbols given to the common man are of little value, it's a pity most crazy religious fanatics around the world are only strengthening these egregores and giving more power to the few who have access to the potent symbols and divine names.

The highlighted above makes a lot of sense, i learnt that there are a good number of authentic and potent early christian literature locked up in the vaults of the vatican availabe only to a priviledge few. Also the kabbalah is supoosed to have been given to the Israelites by God for the good of mankind yet the elite amongst them cornered this knwoledge and built a cult around it. It is all about men wanting to dominate other men. As the saying goes in the country of the blind the one eyed man is king. I often laugh at most christians especially the pentecostals who think they have a spiritual understanding of the bible[ which in itself is very incomplete and distorted] whilst they lamblast the instituition[catholic church] that compiled the bible for them. this sheer naivety, to assume that they can know half as much as the catholics who gave them the bible in the first instance is really laughable whilst they are claiming a so called spiritual insight. I am by no means commending the catholics whom i also consider to be the source of most of the problems associated with christianity today but only trying to say very little about christianity itself which so many claim they know has been revealed to us today.

jackdaniel:


@Pastor AIO => The truth to the best of my knowledge is; Egregore can be destroyed , but it is almost practically impossible. I agree with you that these are transmutations. The scary fact about this transmutation is it's ability to gain consciousness. In information tech and Artificial intelligence, scientist and computer engineers are also scared of machines gaining consciousness; and that point is termed as SINGULARITY. the singularity debate might seem like a fairy tale, right? but  presently carrying out my research thesis on the semantic web and machine learning , I think that the singularity point is drawing nearer than we can imagine, thanks to Allosphere[3], semantic web and AI. As for the analysis of the Nigerian egregore that will take me so much time to comment on it, but maybe we can talk about it as time goes on. Even if egregores cant be destroyed ; they can be institutionalized , controlled or at least rehabilitated.

I'm yet to be convinced of the practical use of this concept of egregores.

What comes first, the thoughts of a people, or the Egregore that is associated with the thoughts? In other words, what creates what.

I don't think that Consciousness is a product or function of complexity whereby the more complex a system gets (ie, and AI) the likelier it becomes to have consciousness. I actually think that the entire universe is conscious already, from the inanimate rocks to the breeze to all the species of animals.

Can there be a war of Egregores, in which we are just the pawns. So any attempt to rehabilitate an egregore is just one egregore trying to subdue another.

I still need a more detailed explanation of what an egregore is and how it functions before I can say anymore about it.

@jackdaniel
Are you knowledgeable about the kabbalah? If so can you educate us more on it? as i find it really fascinating and i believe knowledge of it would reveal some secrets of the universe to us. Although i have done some private studies on it i would really like to know more.

Jagoon:

@jackdaniel
Are you knowledgeable about the kabbalah? If so can you educate us more on it? as i find it really fascinating and i believe knowledge of it would reveal some secrets of the universe to us. Although i have done some private studies on it i would really like to know more.

Perhaps this will require another thread all of it's own. Or maybe 3 or 4 threads.

Pastor AIO:

Perhaps this will require another thread all of it's own. Or maybe 3 or 4 threads.

well the topic of this thread already captures the kabbalah issue

Jagoon:

@jackdaniel
Are you knowledgeable about the kabbalah? If so can you educate us more on it? as i find it really fascinating and i believe knowledge of it would reveal some secrets of the universe to us. Although i have done some private studies on it i would really like to know more.

The kabbalah;Sufism;Gnosticism,etc,etc, all are about the very same thing,though.They are the esoteric side of the major religions.Just done in slightly different ways.They all point to the same truths about the physical universe.

jagunlabi:

The kabbalah;Sufism;Gnosticism,etc,etc, all are about the very same thing,though.They are the esoteric side of the major religions.Just done in slightly different ways.They all point to the same truths about the physical universe.

But are all pointing towards mystism which is the part of religion [the supernatural] the informed hide away from the followers. for instance moses received the kabbalah from God and it was this he used as magic to defeat the egyptian magicians when he was tussling with the pharaoh but today in christianity we conviniently ignore this fact and pretend it wasn't magic we then go on to condenm any body or group that uses supernatural powers as occult or evil, this sounds like hypocrisy to me. Also i learnt that there are number of similarities between kabbalah and our own IFA, could it be becos they come from the same supernatural source?

Sorry everybody, I’ll try to reply your thread as fast as I can, been really busy . So please expect delays,  .cheers.  My answers are  opinions, and not Dogmas.   I hope the flaws in my answers will be exposed and corrected by you all, 

Pastor AIO=> “what comes first, the thought of a people, or the egregore that is associated with the thought”? That’s a nice question, it sounds like "the chicken or the egg" question .  Not to get entangled in the quargmire of the esoteric maze, I’ll use an illustration to answer the question. Let’s consider an artist who wants to paint a picture; first of all he has a thought about his idea. This thought would now motivate his body to assemble already existing components eg brush, paint etc. The thought also compels his hands to paint. Finally, the picture is done. From this story (boring,  ), one can see the thought assembling different components to create a picture. It should be noted that the components existed before the thought, but the picture emerged after the thought.   About the, “War of Egregores”?  Why don’t you observe more and find out for yourself and share your observation. Also don’t confuse consciousness with the ego.  The ill of some egregores lies in the unstructured nature of their egos, not consciousness.


Jargon=> Kabbalah is a very broad subject, being specific might help. I met a man who has been studying the kabbalah for over 40yrs and to my amassment he told me he was a beginner. From my journey in the kabbalah , I’m willing to share any knowledge that might be helpful, I am also a learner like  you.  Maybe i’ll say a little about the design of the tree of life. The design of the tree is derived from the intersection of 6 + 1 circles. The points in which they have multiple interceptions form the sephiroths. The six circles intercept on points of creation, while the seventh circle in the middle embodies points of greater concentration of power. This is part of the explanation of the six days of creation and the 7th day of rest in the torah or in the bible.
I will also talk about a sentence in the bible or torah known in Hebrew as Bereshith ; “In the beginning God said let there be light and there was light”. That sentence embodies almost every aspect of the kabbalah; because a kabbalist deals with Thought, sound, the alphabets and numbers. These are all frequencies. In Science today, the field of Cymantics pioneered by Hans jenny has confirmed what the kabbalist proposed over a thousand years ago. In cymatic scientist found out that different frequency of sound create different structures. The power of the kabbalist is depicted in that simple quotation in the torah, the kabbalist is a master in structuring frequencies eg sound to create new realities.

Jagunlabi => Truth can be found through any way and any medium as long as the seeker is honest and frees his or her mind. I have met illiterates and children who explained certain truths better than most researchers have ever done. The truth is before us all, we just have to be willing to let go of the ego to see it.

jackdaniel:

@jagunlabi & buda => it's nice you guys raised the question of the "egregores as a collective ego"?. My reply is this;  the egregore goes beyond the jungian collective ego;  a well formed egregore is linked to the the mind of it's host's, but it has it's own distinct ego. I could liken an egregore to a child who does the will of his parents and stops when he is 21, but unfortunately this child still has his umbilical codes attached to his parents. The notion of the egregore should not be confused with the universal mind or the Jungian archetypes. In the universal mind all ego's are nullified[1], while the Jungian archetypes are more or less patterns of human characteristics recorded in all societies[2], in my opinion i think the Jungian archetypes are patterns encoded in the human DNA.

Just some notes. As far as I know, Jungianism does not do "collective ego", or I have just not come across it yet, though as I write this - and to contradict myself - Hitler's Germany comes to mind. It was more of a collective unconsciousness however, unless one wants to claim that they all adopted Hitler's ego. As to Jung's Archetypes, they are coded alright, but not in the DNA. They are ideas that different societies have encoded in their psyche through learning, and may differ or be similar depending.

An egregore sounds more like the aoption of the teachings of a religious (or ideological) leader. I am reading [url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=Essays+in+Zen+Buddhism,+first+series++By+Daisetz+Teitaro+Suzuki]Essays In Zen Buddhism First Series[/url], and it seems the word would fit Bodhidharma who took Zen teachings to China. It also fits Christ and Mohammed too, as you have said, I see:

jackdaniel:
@Jaggon => all religions have egregores, but some egregores are more organized and institutionalised. The older an egregore, the more knowledgeable and probably  the more powerful it is.

I do not agree that age makes an egregore any more potent however. If that were the case, those of the Christianity would be more potent than those of Islam, and Judaic one's would be more potent too, but what I see is potency depends on the believer, and not the age of the egregore.

jackdaniel:

Jargon=> Kabbalah is a very broad subject, being specific might help. I met a man who has been studying the kabbalah for over 40yrs and to my amassment he told me he was a beginner. From my journey in the kabbalah , I’m willing to share any knowledge that might be helpful, I am also a learner like  you.  Maybe i’ll say a little about the design of the tree of life. The design of the tree is derived from the intersection of 6 + 1 circles. The points in which they have multiple interceptions form the sephiroths. The six circles intercept on points of creation, while the seventh circle in the middle embodies points of greater concentration of power. This is part of the explanation of the six days of creation and the 7th day of rest in the torah or in the bible.
I will also talk about a sentence in the bible or torah known in Hebrew as Bereshith ; “In the beginning God said let there be light and there was light”. That sentence embodies almost every aspect of the kabbalah; because a kabbalist deals with Thought, sound, the alphabets and numbers. These are all frequencies. In Science today, the field of Cymantics pioneered by Hans jenny has confirmed what the kabbalist proposed over a thousand years ago. In cymatic scientist found out that different frequency of sound create different structures. The power of the kabbalist is depicted in that simple quotation in the torah, the kabbalist is a master in structuring frequencies eg sound to create new realities.

On the Kabbalah, I doubt you could explain it Jack, only becasue of the complexity involved, even if it is understood. I find it to be a method of reasoning (or thinking) that developed though the search for deeper truth in the Torah and specifically the Bereshith which you quoted. Studies of it seem to develop the reasoning ability of the individual in a sort of eye opening way, I would say. A E Waite did a rather good job, for those interested.

, and ego has the last laugh
[url=http://buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=8,3222,0,0,1,0]by Kathiresan, The New Straits Times, Sep 24, 2006[/url]

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia -- RELIGION divides people. His eyes on the newspaper, my teenage son continued: "If religion was intended to bring peace, why are people fighting over it?"

I did not have to guess the reason for the question. He was reading about the outcry that followed Pope Benedict XVI’s remarks about Islam.

I could have told him he was still young and would not understand. But, no, that won’t do. For today’s teenagers are more knowledgeable than teenagers of my generation.

I gave the safe reply that religion appeared sometimes to drive a wedge between people but, overall, there was good in it. Anyway, I added, people had been fighting in the name of religion for 2,000 years or more.

He shot a glance at me. If I didn’t know him better (and which parent claims otherwise?), I would have thought he was thinking: "Don’t give me that crap."

He went back to his reading. A few seconds later, he ventured: "Why can’t people of different religions live in peace? Why do people kill in the name of religion?"

Perhaps I took a little too long to answer, for he continued: "You have taught me that there cannot be one God for the Hindus, one for the Muslims, one for the Christians, one for the Buddhists and one for the Sikhs. I still remember your water example."

My mind rolled back, trying to recall the words uttered years ago when I was attempting to explain God. I had said water was called Thanni in Tamil, Air in Bahasa Melayu, Water in English and Chooi in Hokkien. No matter what you call it, water is water.

Calling it by another name does not change its properties or its functions. And water belongs to all. There is no Hindu water or Muslim water or Christian water or Buddhist water.

Similarly, I had told him, God was known by different names in different languages.

The approaches and rituals practised depended on factors such as geography and local culture at the period in history when a particular religion took shape.

His voice jolted my reminiscing.

"I’m just trying to understand why adults tell us that fighting is wrong but then fight each other in the name of God who is supposed to stand for love and peace."

Oh, how I have anguished over that very question. I had concluded that it was due to rigidity in refusing to see that there are various ways of approaching God, not just the way one is born into. I told him so. He nodded, but I wasn’t sure if he was satisfied with the answer.

But the old disquiet gushed up again. More so when two days later, my colleague Balan Moses broached the subject of inter-religious strife.

Can anyone deny that religion, which should provide strength and guidance towards living a good life, has also become a source of heated argument and intellectual anxiety? Even fear?

And that murders have been, and continue to be, committed in the name of God?

I recalled Charles Caleb Cotton’s words: "Men will wrangle for religion; write for it; fight for it; die for it; anything but live it." How true.

That day, when I went home, I called my son over and ventured an answer: "These murders, these fears, these arguments have nothing to do with religion. They have to do with the ego."

The ego lurks unassumingly, often exhibiting an air of benevolence, waiting to pounce on, and gobble up, the smallest of gestures and the briefest of words. For that is how it grows.

Stripped naked, what is the ego but the "I" and the "my".

"I" fight with you because you said something about "my" religion. You want to burn "my" temple because "I" demolished yours.

"I" think "my" religion is better than yours. You feel your religion is superior to "mine".

So religion is not to be blamed. It is the ego behind those professing the religion. Religious competition is driving many conflicts today.

My son asked: "But isn’t the ego individual? I have an ego, you have an ego. But people as a group get upset and go crazy, burning and killing, sometimes over petty issues."

My mind went back to the Kampung Rawa incident in Penang — where people of different faiths fought each other over the ringing of a bell. But then again, politics played a major part in that conflict.

There was such a thing as "collective ego", an ego shared by members of a group of people who had the same or similar characteristics and practised a common way of life, I said.

When you decry my religion, for instance, I take it as a personal attack on me because this is my religion.

My ego is hurt. If many such individual egos feel bruised or hurt, then the collective ego is hurt, I added. As it is rather subtle, its presence is not immediately felt or understood.

The ego, which is often nurtured by demeaning others, breathes only when there is some sort of struggle — to be more beautiful, better, superior or to have more of something or other.

"That," said my son, "sounds more plausible."

"Great", I said, "now, we need to talk about your plan of study, "

He shot a glance, at me, again. But this time it seemed to say: "Oh, no. I should have gone to bed earlier."

I do not agree that age makes an egregore any more potent

;

buda => i said probably, not certainly,  . but from my analysis of the judeo/Christian/Islamic egregores, i am of the opinion that the former governs the latter's. Various factors increase the strengths of egregores, it would be unwise to comment on certain issues on a public thread . ("dare","know","will" and "silence"; i hope you get it buda.

On the Kabbalah, I doubt you could explain it Jack, only becasue of the complexity involved, even if it is understood. I find it to be a method of reasoning (or thinking) that developed though the search for deeper truth in the Torah and specifically the Bereshith which you quoted. Studies of it seem to develop the reasoning ability of the individual in a sort of eye opening way, I would say. A E Waite did a rather good job, for those interested.

;

buda=>  Very true Buda, The kabbalah can't be explained in it's entirety, no kabbalist has ever been able to analyse the different combinations of the AlephBeth, how much more explaining the wholes system. who am i to explain the whole system, all i can do is share my  experience and hope to learn from others also,  .  And besides i was talking about it's structure, most books talk about the tree of life dogmatically; Not showing  it's origins concretely.

Concerning A.E. Waite's work; i think it is brilliant, but i will rather recommend the works of  Israel Regardie.
Caveats: interested readers of the above mentioned works should bear in mind that these books are by authours who were highly influenced by the western hermetic doctrines , But I think they really make a good introduction into the study of the kabbalah,

@buda atum
Nice story you have there very thought provoking

I really think that this subject is going to need more than one thread. In fact I think it is going to need a sub-forum of it's own.

jackdaniel:


Pastor AIO=> “what comes first, the thought of a people, or the egregore that is associated with the thought”? That’s a nice question, it sounds like "the chicken or the egg" question .  Not to get entangled in the quargmire of the esoteric maze, I’ll use an illustration to answer the question. Let’s consider an artist who wants to paint a picture; first of all he has a thought about his idea. This thought would now motivate his body to assemble already existing components eg brush, paint etc. The thought also compels his hands to paint. Finally, the picture is done. From this story (boring,  ), one can see the thought assembling different components to create a picture. It should be noted that the components existed before the thought, but the picture emerged after the thought.   About the, “War of Egregores”?  Why don’t you observe more and find out for yourself and share your observation. Also don’t confuse consciousness with the ego.  The ill of some egregores lies in the unstructured nature of their egos, not consciousness.

But does the artist actually create that initial thought of the painting ex nihilo, or did the Idea pre-exist and just occur to him. Or rather occur in his head. Perhaps the Idea merely uses the artist to come into manifestation.

jackdaniel:
 About the, “War of Egregores”?  Why don’t you observe more and find out for yourself and share your observation. Also don’t confuse consciousness with the ego.  The ill of some egregores lies in the unstructured nature of their egos, not consciousness.

My understanding of Ego and the ills that proceed from it are very much based on the way the human mind works. So an Egregore with an ego sounds strange to me. Even more so the idea of structured and unstructured egos. What is a structured Ego?

I brought up consciousness because you mentioned that AIs could eventually become conscious and that Egregore could become conscious and I feel that consciousness is not subject to BECOMING. It is coterminous with everything. Everything is conscious.

As regards the wars of egregores, I just think that everything flows (panta rhei) and that forms succeed forms and it is a natural process. Egregores will succeed egregores. Some egregores will break up like amoeba and become 2 or more egregores which might be contrary to each other. I just think the forms of things ( and the interrelation of these forms) is more subtle than distinct defined entities called egregores.

I really like your description of the sepher sephiroth. I never thought of it like that before (6 plus 1) circles. and each sephiroth being the intersection point of the circles. I guess also that the intersection that is not number would be Da'ath. (between Kether and Tiphareth).

This thread is getting complicated, i am beginning to get confused

Jagoon:

This thread is getting complicated, i am beginning to get confused

This is inevitable. That is why I suggest that it should be spread out over a number of threads.

But does the artist actually create that initial thought of the painting ex nihilo, or did the Idea pre-exist and just occur to him.  Or rather occur in his head.  Perhaps the Idea merely uses the artist to come into manifestation

Pastor AOI=> that’s a wonderful question, I was highly fascinated; from your responses I believe you have some knowledge of the kabbalah.  I am compelled to answer you in kabbalistic terms; the answer to that question challenges even the emanation of kether; it raises a loop question; since the emanations of the sephiroths are the thought of the divine. Answering that, should suggest that even kether is propelled by his thought to create. This implies that the thought of the emanations (sephiroths) precedes kether. From the geometrical structures, one should know that more circles can be created above kether. But kabbalist identified that problem and decided to ignore the sephiroths above kether ; and decided to start from kether, which is Ain soph. Consider the number line ; infinity negative numbers before zero and infinity positive numbers after zero. Neither ends can be met, so it is advisable to start from zero.

The realm of the artist begins from zero (hypothetically), all the components of his painting exist within the known sephiroths; and his brain is a replica of Ain Soph(As above so is Below), so he taps into the energies of the sephiroths( fragments of thoughts from the divine) combines them  and creates his own emanations , thus a thought, idea or maybe an egregore . I guess you are aware that the human body is also a replica of the tree of life.
AS ABOVE SO IS BELOW, we also have the ability of kether to form emanations with our brains; the human brain is a Microcosm of the Macrocosm (kether).

Even more; so the idea of structured and unstructured egos. What is a structured Ego?   

Rene Descartes: " i think i am, therefore i exist ". That should be the first word usually uttered, when consciousness  develops an ego in my opinion.   . Analysis of that word, I-think-I-Am;  I= consciousness and Am=Ego . Analysing a second sentence. "I- cant- live- with- myself". I=consciousness and Myself = Ego. ---- just a prelude.

The human brain behaves like kether, it also produces emanations. Ain soph has created many emanations before this present reality, and they  were all destroyed, this resulted to the shells. This present tree of life still lasts because of its structure (perfect symmetry). The ability of our brain to mimic kether is both our blessing and our curse.

An unstructured ego in kabbalistic term are egos still bound in the lower worlds, animalistic => flux/astral => mental => atziluth. The higher the world attuned to, the more structured the ego becomes. Minds trapped in the animalistic world will always create animalistic egregores, or always have dysfunctional egos. In a country like Nigeria (presently), it is obvious where the minds of our leaders and majority of the citizens lurk, most are compelled by the animal instincts (corruption, kidnapping, violence, greed, etc). The genius of America is; the egregore of the state is being guarded by minds that are highly attuned to higher worlds. That is the greatest achievement of the Freemasons in America. Even the national monuments of the United States depict the ideas of the American founding fathers.

This thread is getting complicated, i am beginning to get confused 

Jagoon=> sorry about that, if you have any questions please don’t hesitate to ask, they say, he who asks for direction never gets lost.

wow!! Amazing thread. I have some basic knowledge of Kabbalah, but only in religious/ Judaic terms. As in, the sefirot, their properties, how they interact etc. with "Israel" and the rest of that dogmatic shit. But reading this sheds whole new light on it.

I have a few questions. . .did the concept of the sefirot pre-exist kabbalah, and were the Kabbalists ideas just plugged into an existing framework?

jackdaniel:

Ain soph has created many emanations before this present reality, and they  were all destroyed, this resulted to the shells. .

That sounds similar to Lurianic Kabbalah. I think PASTOR AIO mentioned earlier that these "egregores' (never heard of that till I read this thread) might be able to take on their own existence independent of the source. The whole idea of lurianic Kabbalah is that the shattered vessells (maybe what u mean by shells) are responsible for evil. (that's over simplifying it but it's complicated and i think u already know what i mean so i don't wanna type it all out unless I have to). Is this related to what u are talkin about?

jackdaniel:

An unstructured ego in kabbalistic term are egos still bound in the lower worlds, animalistic => flux/astral => mental => atziluth. The higher the world attuned to, the more structured the ego becomes. Minds trapped in the animalistic world will always create animalistic egregores, or always have dysfunctional egos.

"When your intellect conceives of God, do not permit urself to imagine that there is a God that exists as depicted by you. For if you do this you will have a finite and corporeal conception of God, God forbid. Instead, your mind should dwell on the affirmation of God's existence and then recoil. To do more than this is to allow the imagination to reflect on God as God is in Himself and such reflection is bound to result in imaginative limitations and corporeality. Put reins therefore on ur intellect and do not allow it too great a freedom, but assert God's existence and deny ur intellect the possibility of comprehending God"  16th century kabbalist Moses cordevero

I think that  ^^is a basic dogmatic remix of what u're sayin. Wrong?

Also, what do u mean by "egregore of the state being tuned to higher worlds"? and that havin sumtn to do with the American success story. Couldn't it just be well managed abundant resources and responsible govt? kinda like other well run countries e.g. Canada, Sweden, Japan, UAE. I know the monuments and currency have some symbols with mystical roots, but I never thought too much about it. I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories and it just seemed to me all that stuff was just that.

Get rid of the ego by shedding the light of awareness on it and this egregore thing will also vanish.Human beings need to get away from the "HUMAN" aspect of themselves and move back to the "BEING" aspect of themselves.That is to move back to the centre and align with it.This is what is called going back to God in the religious circle(even though that has come to mean coming to my religion/church in today's religious circle).
The western folk - who gave us these religions that keep us firmly locked to the "Human" part of our make up hence creating all these "egregores" - are slowly being taught how to move back and align with their centre,incidentally,and are leaving we africans behind to hold on to our human aspects that create all these agregores.
We need to move back to the centre,back to the "being".If we do not do this,we will never get rid of these egregores and all the social dysfunctions that we labour under.

buda atum:

, and ego has the last laugh
[url=http://buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=8,3222,0,0,1,0]by Kathiresan, The New Straits Times, Sep 24, 2006[/url]

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia -- RELIGION divides people. His eyes on the newspaper, my teenage son continued: "If religion was intended to bring peace, why are people fighting over it?"

I did not have to guess the reason for the question. He was reading about the outcry that followed Pope Benedict XVI’s remarks about Islam.

I could have told him he was still young and would not understand. But, no, that won’t do. For today’s teenagers are more knowledgeable than teenagers of my generation.

I gave the safe reply that religion appeared sometimes to drive a wedge between people but, overall, there was good in it. Anyway, I added, people had been fighting in the name of religion for 2,000 years or more.

He shot a glance at me. If I didn’t know him better (and which parent claims otherwise?), I would have thought he was thinking: "Don’t give me that crap."

He went back to his reading. A few seconds later, he ventured: "Why can’t people of different religions live in peace? Why do people kill in the name of religion?"

Perhaps I took a little too long to answer, for he continued: "You have taught me that there cannot be one God for the Hindus, one for the Muslims, one for the Christians, one for the Buddhists and one for the Sikhs. I still remember your water example."

My mind rolled back, trying to recall the words uttered years ago when I was attempting to explain God. I had said water was called Thanni in Tamil, Air in Bahasa Melayu, Water in English and Chooi in Hokkien. No matter what you call it, water is water.

Calling it by another name does not change its properties or its functions. And water belongs to all. There is no Hindu water or Muslim water or Christian water or Buddhist water.

Similarly, I had told him, God was known by different names in different languages.

The approaches and rituals practised depended on factors such as geography and local culture at the period in history when a particular religion took shape.

His voice jolted my reminiscing.

"I’m just trying to understand why adults tell us that fighting is wrong but then fight each other in the name of God who is supposed to stand for love and peace."

Oh, how I have anguished over that very question. I had concluded that it was due to rigidity in refusing to see that there are various ways of approaching God, not just the way one is born into. I told him so. He nodded, but I wasn’t sure if he was satisfied with the answer.

But the old disquiet gushed up again. More so when two days later, my colleague Balan Moses broached the subject of inter-religious strife.

Can anyone deny that religion, which should provide strength and guidance towards living a good life, has also become a source of heated argument and intellectual anxiety? Even fear?

And that murders have been, and continue to be, committed in the name of God?

I recalled Charles Caleb Cotton’s words: "Men will wrangle for religion; write for it; fight for it; die for it; anything but live it." How true.

That day, when I went home, I called my son over and ventured an answer: "These murders, these fears, these arguments have nothing to do with religion. They have to do with the ego."

The ego lurks unassumingly, often exhibiting an air of benevolence, waiting to pounce on, and gobble up, the smallest of gestures and the briefest of words. For that is how it grows.

Stripped naked, what is the ego but the "I" and the "my".

"I" fight with you because you said something about "my" religion. You want to burn "my" temple because "I" demolished yours.

"I" think "my" religion is better than yours. You feel your religion is superior to "mine".

So religion is not to be blamed. It is the ego behind those professing the religion. Religious competition is driving many conflicts today.

My son asked: "But isn’t the ego individual? I have an ego, you have an ego. But people as a group get upset and go crazy, burning and killing, sometimes over petty issues."

My mind went back to the Kampung Rawa incident in Penang — where people of different faiths fought each other over the ringing of a bell. But then again, politics played a major part in that conflict.

There was such a thing as "collective ego", an ego shared by members of a group of people who had the same or similar characteristics and practised a common way of life, I said.

When you decry my religion, for instance, I take it as a personal attack on me because this is my religion.

My ego is hurt. If many such individual egos feel bruised or hurt, then the collective ego is hurt, I added. As it is rather subtle, its presence is not immediately felt or understood.

The ego, which is often nurtured by demeaning others, breathes only when there is some sort of struggle — to be more beautiful, better, superior or to have more of something or other.

"That," said my son, "sounds more plausible."

"Great", I said, "now, we need to talk about your plan of study, "

He shot a glance, at me, again. But this time it seemed to say: "Oh, no. I should have gone to bed earlier."