The truth is is Christianity (God, Christ, the gospel) is one of the many grounds in this mysterious world...regardless of what my Christian brothers and sisters feel.

The deeper truth however is that of the many grounds, Christ is the only solid ground...

It's a rock, all others (no matter how sweet and appealing) are sinking sands...

I don't have any right to judge anyone...

This is only my belief, my hope.

wirinet:


The bolded statement to me is the greatest miracle of Christianity, able to make people feel a deep sense of guilt for something you have no idea of, by people you do not know and living in an era you don't know. How the guilt for the crucifixion of a Jewish man in Palestine some 2000 years ago is put on black Africans living deep in the jungle of Africa in the 20th century is the greatest miracle of time.

Africa is not a jungle and never was a jungle stop spreading the white man lies

HardMirror:

Exactly! You know him. He is a bit bald. Very popular there and respected cos of his independence.
Problem is humans are generally weak and we all want to believe there is an Almighty God watching out for us. But if we really check, we would see that we are the ones always struggling to solve our own problems while giving glory to an imaginary god. As small as osogbo is owver the past 15 years there has been LOTS of crusades with thousands of healings, where are all the so called healed blind men living? Where are all the dumb people speaking? Where are all the lame walking? Where are they living that we don't know them or hear of them after the crusades.

Do you know what it means to be blind and everybody on your street knows you are blind for years and all of a sudden you start seeing for real. Do you think a single muslim will remain on such a street after witnessing God first hand?
Why do you think people are going from church to church looking for answer?
People are looking for answers and they seem to never find it, tho they keep lying to themselves that they have found it.

They were imported from Lagos

Anjelus:
Mr Man, dont talk about what you dont know, Our God is still in the business of answering prayers, the condition is that you must believe, ask yourself why it took a woman with the issue of blood to get her healing quicker than the many crowd that flog around Jesus, because she believed that by touching Him, she would be healed and it was so. In 2006, my wife went for an interview with Oceanic bank and after one week they sent her an email that she ws unsuccessful, she became dejected. So I asked her to print the rejection email and bring it to me, she did and we cancelled the letter by faith and requested for a successful one in agreement. Glory be to God, after two weeks she was invited for another interview with the same bank and was employed. I can count more than ten other miraculous things God has done since then. So dont be deluded that God answers prayer, however, even if God does not answer prayer, he remains my God forever because my relationship with Him is not based on answering prayer but feeling the warmth of His presence in every area of my life. Jesus Is Lord.

Please I keep hearing this story - the woman with the issue of blood - what issue of blood? Was it menstral blood? If it was not menstral blood, then it has to be some bleeding somewhere. I think Christians need to start questioning some things in the Bible, if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense

I don't believe you believe there is no God, how did the whole universe come to being? Maybe these religions don't depict the right way to serve Him? This world is beyond the physical, there is a spirit in your body and I believe God is a spirit also. Only a fool will doubt the existence of a Supreme Being, someone has to be in charge. I believe the best way to serve this Supreme Being is to lead a Good life, care about the poor, we can all differentiate from the right and wrong, good and bad. Believing nobody created the world we're living in is just a way to free yourself from some sort of burden, being a slave to some religious doctrines, being free, a slave always wants to be free from a Master. Everybody loves Freedom. Not believing in God is just a way to feel free. Then what is the essence of live without believing in something. Going on your daily activities without any purpose, just feeling there is no world after this. Nobody has the answer to all these mysterious questions, I don't. You've to believe in something, don't try and be the boss here. If You can't create any living thing, then you've to believe Something, Someone created you.

HardMirror:
CONTINUATION....

Now I am not a petty kind of person. I am a man that does what has to be done to get result. I don't allow emotions dictate to me. I don't allow fear. Infact I don't fear people. I once worked with a politician Dr. Agunloye who was running for governorship in Ondo state and I did not take bull shit from him or his campaign directors when they were trying to give me bullshit. Even my friends were shocked when I told the man to Bleep off and told him I quit from working with him.

That is the kind of person I am. Let your yes be your yes and your no be your no. I don't cover for anyone's sorry ass. I won't pretend that God was good when he was not.

So I requested a private session with Pastor Charlse. I had my questions ready. All along the man thought I was a new convert, he never knew my story. We arranged a private session and I met him at the agreed time.

I told him my story and why I started attending his church. I confessed how I was losing my faith to him and the questions that weighed my heart. "Sir, what makes the bible true? What makes all what we believe true?"

He smiled with confidence and started preaching to me from the bible and giving me some personal experiences. I realized he had no answers. All he was doing was asking me to just believe the bible and pray. I have been praying, I have read the bible. Nothing new here.

The whole religion was obviously built around human selfishness. Just make sure you make heaven he said. Oh! It is not my business that God allows people he claims to love and that he created to suffer and die of hunger and diseases? It is not my business that the bible has so many contradictions and some insane evil things God did? It is not my business that God has been failing to heal people? It is not my business that Jesus died in Jerusalem while it would take hundreds or of years for the gospel that was supposed to be man's only hope to reach even nearby regions? Billions would have died without ever hearing the name jesus. And yet that is God's perfect plan to save humanity? How daft can this God be?

I left his office that day pretending to have accepted his answers to my question when I discovered it was hopeless trying to get straight answers from him.

I remember getting home and saying "Fvck God!" This was the first time I would ever say this. I repeated it over and over again. I have tried to swallow your bullshit. Enough is enough.

From the very first day I started reading the bible from Genesis, you never made sense, but I swallowed it all believing the Holy spirit was giving me understanding wereas it was my own mind that was formulating excuses on God's behalf. I remember clearly how I kept bumping from terrible to more terrible unexplainable things in the bible, yet I swallowed it all. Damn! I laughed at myself. Men! This thing is total mind control. I kept laughing. It was as if I just found a pot full of gold.

That night I slept with the last words on my mouth "fvck you God, Fvck fvck and fvck you" and I went to sleep.

Yeah! I was damn angry! Very angry. I have wasted 20+ years of my life not living but being a zombie. I still believed God existed, but I was sure the bible was damn fake! So I set on quest for the truth.

The answer lies not in studying other religions, the answer was in studying human history. How did it all start?

Continued here: Part 3: Pastor To Atheist: Ask Me Any Question I Will Answer If Safe For Me

I read ur stroy carefully from start to end, it is obvious you have a lineage of ancestral covenant never to serve God and you attempted to break the covenant, wat u need is delieverance. some of us have decided to believe and serve God not because of wat we want from him, weda he answers prayers or not but because we have a witness in our spirit that there is a superior being above all human who controls the affairs of mortals,talking abt heaven and hell, it is safer to believe they both exist and be on d safe side on the last day, if eventually heaven does not exist nothing spoil. Remain blessed!

Apart from the fact that this is well written and delivered in digestible nuggets, what I appreciate the most about this story is that HardMirror meticulously sketches an elaborate picture of his background, effectively diminishing the potency of the go-to platitude that religionists usually invoke to dismiss people who have renounced faith: "you were never really a true believer". As an atheist, I know that being this meticulous about my religious background, no matter how strong, is actually very difficult. Well done!

This definitely counts as one of my all time Nairaland favourites.

HardMirror:
CONTINUATION....

Now I am not a petty kind of person. I am a man that does what has to be done to get result. I don't allow emotions dictate to me. I don't allow fear. Infact I don't fear people. I once worked with a politician Dr. Agunloye who was running for governorship in Ondo state and I did not take bull shit from him or his campaign directors when they were trying to give me bullshit. Even my friends were shocked when I told the man to Bleep off and told him I quit from working with him.

That is the kind of person I am. Let your yes be your yes and your no be your no. I don't cover for anyone's sorry ass. I won't pretend that God was good when he was not.

So I requested a private session with Pastor Charlse. I had my questions ready. All along the man thought I was a new convert, he never knew my story. We arranged a private session and I met him at the agreed time.

I told him my story and why I started attending his church. I confessed how I was losing my faith to him and the questions that weighed my heart. "Sir, what makes the bible true? What makes all what we believe true?"

He smiled with confidence and started preaching to me from the bible and giving me some personal experiences. I realized he had no answers. All he was doing was asking me to just believe the bible and pray. I have been praying, I have read the bible. Nothing new here.

The whole religion was obviously built around human selfishness. Just make sure you make heaven he said. Oh! It is not my business that God allows people he claims to love and that he created to suffer and die of hunger and diseases? It is not my business that the bible has so many contradictions and some insane evil things God did? It is not my business that God has been failing to heal people? It is not my business that Jesus died in Jerusalem while it would take hundreds or of years for the gospel that was supposed to be man's only hope to reach even nearby regions? Billions would have died without ever hearing the name jesus. And yet that is God's perfect plan to save humanity? How daft can this God be?

I left his office that day pretending to have accepted his answers to my question when I discovered it was hopeless trying to get straight answers from him.

I remember getting home and saying "Fvck God!" This was the first time I would ever say this. I repeated it over and over again. I have tried to swallow your bullshit. Enough is enough.

From the very first day I started reading the bible from Genesis, you never made sense, but I swallowed it all believing the Holy spirit was giving me understanding wereas it was my own mind that was formulating excuses on God's behalf. I remember clearly how I kept bumping from terrible to more terrible unexplainable things in the bible, yet I swallowed it all. Damn! I laughed at myself. Men! This thing is total mind control. I kept laughing. It was as if I just found a pot full of gold.

That night I slept with the last words on my mouth "fvck you God, Fvck fvck and fvck you" and I went to sleep.

Yeah! I was damn angry! Very angry. I have wasted 20+ years of my life not living but being a zombie. I still believed God existed, but I was sure the bible was damn fake! So I set on quest for the truth.

The answer lies not in studying other religions, the answer was in studying human history. How did it all start?

Continued here: Part 3: Pastor To Atheist: Ask Me Any Question I Will Answer If Safe For Me

can't find the continuation of your story...

HardMirror:
You can read Part 1 here is you missed it www.nairaland.com/3078223/pastor-atheist-why-never-christian

Phewww!

Image123 pissing on their chips yet again. They were having a field day until Image showed up on the scene.

@Image: take a bow, son!
Like a 1 man army you put them all where they belong

Basically, atheists discredit the existence of God because of some perceived fault they see in Him e.g. why did He not heal Shola, why does He allow people suffer, etc

Truth is God will not interfere in our sphere unless we give Him permission to do so. He is such a principled one. That is actually the definition of prayer, asking God or intervene in our affairs. This is why God is so particular about the church growing up to maturity because it's only through us He can express Himself to the world but we (the church today) have been very selfish, carnal etc and that limits the extent to which His desires can be fulfilled on earth. I'm sure you have not forgotten this line in our Lord's prayer: let Your will be done on earth the same way it's being carried out in heaven. Usually when people change their ways suddenly and begin to serve God, more often than not there was at least somebody praying fervently for them behind the scenes. This is the effect of continued and fervent praying. The bible says it makes supernatural power available in our sphere

If you blame the church for the way the world is today I would listen to you but you use the 'God is at fault' line to embolden yourself in atheism, wrongly

I know you guys were having a nice time before Image popped in and started giving some headaches

And I'll tell you what. Even if God healed that boy today, the atheist would explain it away because he has decided to live independent of God because of his selfish desires. Remember the bible story were the rich man asked God to send prophets Moses and Elijah (iirc) to warn his family members on earth and God declined saying, even if an angel came on the scene, they would find a way to disbelieve. So in essence, you are asking for a proof to look for loopholes not because you are open to believing as there have been many incidences of supernatural healings all over the world these many centuries. Look at those and take a cue rather than focus on your half baked 'word of knowledge' experience as basis of truth and/or untruth

Do have a great evening

HardMirror reminds me of Demas in the Bible who after having ministered the Gospel to people disqualified himself by going back to his worldly ways. HardMirror, do you think the devil will ever forgive you for the harm you have caused him in the past?

Jeez, this world is not a playground as some blind folks ignorantly think it is; it is a battleground. Worse, our enemy works against us unseen but we are not ignorant of his devices.

Retrace your steps to Jesus Christ. You don't need anyone to preach to you. Retrace your steps to Jesus Christ while there is still time but if you have made up your mind to insist on your folly of walking in your wisdom and ways that seem right to you, then, by all means, carry on.

The greatest delusion in this life is that there is nothing like a supreme God. How can there be a creature without a creator. I won't deviate into religion but explain things with my free mind. Note a freethinker is would purposely not be an atheist or an agnotic. Back to what I was typing earlier. Can a car spring up from nothing? Did Nairaland just appear from nowhere? If you don't believe in the christian god, believe a God exist, you don't just know what or who that God is.

Charlesdock:
The greatest delusion in this life is that there is nothing like a supreme God. How can there be a creature without a creator. I won't deviate into religion but explain things with my free mind. Note a freethinker is would purposely not be an atheist or an agnotic. Back to what I was typing earlier. Can a car spring up from nothing? Did Nairaland just appear from nowhere? If you don't believe in the christian god, believe a God exist, you don't just know what or who that God is.

Good one there
I like what you are saying here. But then it does not validate the God of the bible or muslims or hindus, or greeks or romans or africans, God could be anything

HardMirror:

Good one there
I like what you are saying here. But then it does not validate the God of the bible or muslims or hindus, or greeks or romans or africans, God could be anything

I wonder how those demons you liberated from human possession using the name of Jesus The Christ would feel about you right now?

Perhaps, a welcome party for a job well done?

HardMirror:

Good one there
I like what you are saying here. But then it does not validate the God of the bible or muslims or hindus, or greeks or romans or africans, God could be anything

But unlike Christianity and other religions, you wouldn't find a Muslim pointing at something as what God is...Its just the believe that all these...I mean everything around us didn't just come into existence by some freak accident...I mean if you believe the engine of a car was made by an individual, so how did the human respiratory system, digestive and respiratory system come into being? Infact in Islam, its not even permissible for you to have a mindset or an imagination as to what God is because inadvertently, you will be worshiping your imagination

Charlesdock:
The greatest delusion in this life is that there is nothing like a supreme God. How can there be a creature without a creator. I won't deviate into religion but explain things with my free mind. Note a freethinker is would purposely not be an atheist or an agnotic. Back to what I was typing earlier. Can a car spring up from nothing? Did Nairaland just appear from nowhere? If you don't believe in the christian god, believe a God exist, you don't just know what or who that God is.

I think you've jumbled too many unrelated concepts, therefore fallen inexorably into the same abyss religions have been stuck in for centuries. I'll try to break down your fallacies so you can modify your "free" thoughts to more accurately represent facts.

1) What, in your mind, is the definition of a supreme god, and why is it a delusion to disbelieve in its existence?

2) You asked how there can be a creature without a creator. This question has a big problem: Claiming that the existence of "creatures" explains the existence of a "creator" is about as strong an argument as claiming that the spleen is the part of the body from where anger originates.
Your question seem to have sprung from a poor understanding of the word "creature". That word is an unfortunate contraption that carries the burden of an a priori acceptance that the the deliberateness in animal behaviour points to delibrateness in the existence of animals, but the presumed link has never been demonstrated. To therefore, use it as the basis for the claim that a creator exists is to commit the logical fallacy known as "circular reasoning". That word is just a stubbornly persistent synonym for animals, so one might as well rephrase your question as follows: "How can there be animals without a creator?" And I believe the theory of evolution has adequately addressed it. Does this mean the theory of evolution is accurate? No, but it means there is another possible way for animals to exist without a creator.

3) I assume the reason you believe a car or nairaland didn't just spring into existence is because of their intricate complexities. Your position seems to be that since such intricately complex entities necessitate a creator/creators, how much more then, natural phenomena with their seemingly complex structures? But if you wish to make an argument from complexity, one may then point out that the creator, if it were purposeful, is itself, complex; therefore necessitating its own creator ad infinitum.

4) You conclude that one should believe in "a god", but have not stated why the idea of god precludes many of them?

HardMirror:

Good one there
I like what you are saying here. But then it does not validate the God of the bible or muslims or hindus, or greeks or romans or africans, God could be anything

This is my only question as this would make or break your case.

You mentioned that a particular brother in the fellowship died from complications that came from fasting...A nairalander who also finished in 2010 from your school asked for the persons name since he did not hear of such a case and you did not respond.

NOW I ASK THE SAME QUESTION. WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE BROTHER WHO DIED VIA FASTING RELATED ISSUES? WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO CAN CONFIRM THIS.

If you cannot provide this name and we affirm it happened then we have our conclusion.

cc HardMirror, hopefullandlord

HardMirror:

Good one there
I like what you are saying here. But then it does not validate the God of the bible or muslims or hindus, or greeks or romans or africans, God could be anything

Hello HardMirror,
I may not be as learned as you are. But I think there's something you don't understand here.
I personally believe that the nature of God is such that you can never understand him.
Please patiently read and take your time to ponder upon what am about to say.
Remember the children of Israel in Egypt, God had promised them, Moses came up and ran into the forest FOR FORTY YEARS!, think about it, forty years is really a long time, those Israelite in Egypt must have been praying, hoping, suffering and dying, probably giving up on God, doubting his power, think about it. Unknowingly, God is preparing somebody for them. Remember Moses spent 40 years in the palace and another 40 in the wilderness. My brother, imagine yourself in the shoes of those Israelite, you would have cursed God for lying.

Think about Joseph also. God said that he is going to be great. But what happened?? He was thrown into a pit, sold, being great in potipher's house must have given him hope but he was thrown into prison.

Jesus said that of all men born in this world, there is none greater than John the Baptist, but think about it, John didn't understand Jesus christ, infact he had to send his Disciples to go and confirm if he is Christ or if they should expect another person. Jesus didn't give him a straight answer and he died in that condition.

Think about Job! If I should judge, why should his children all die??

The thing is, I HAVE DECIDED To FOLLOW A GOD I DO NOT UNDERSTAND

AgentOfAllah:

I think you've jumbled too many unrelated concepts, therefore fallen inexorably into the same abyss religions have been stuck in for centuries. I'll try to break down your fallacies so you can modify your "free" thoughts to more accurately represent facts.

1) What, in your mind, is the definition of a supreme god, and why is it a delusion to disbelieve in its existence?

2) You asked how there can be a creature without a creator. This question has a big problem: Claiming that the existence of "creatures" explains the existence of a "creator" is about as strong an argument as claiming that the spleen is the part of the body from where anger originates.
Your question seem to have sprung from a poor understanding of the word "creature". That word is an unfortunate contraption that carries the burden of an a priori acceptance that the the deliberateness in animal behaviour points to delibrateness in the existence of animals, but the presumed link has never been demonstrated. To therefore, use it as the basis for the claim that a creator exists is to commit the logical fallacy known as "circular reasoning". That word is just a stubbornly persistent synonym for animals, so one might as well rephrase your question as follows: "How can there be animals without a creator?" And I believe the theory of evolution has adequately addressed it. Does this mean the theory of evolution is accurate? No, but it means there is another possible way for animals to exist without a creator.

3) I assume the reason you believe a car or nairaland didn't just spring into existence is because of their intricate complexities. Your position seems to be that since such intricately complex entities necessitate a creator/creators, how much more then, natural phenomena with their seemingly complex structures? But if you wish to make an argument from complexity, one may then point out that the creator, if it were purposeful, is itself, complex; therefore necessitating its own creator ad infinitum.

4) You conclude that one should believe in "a god", but have not stated why the idea of god precludes many of them?

Hardmirror has answered the question. When I was young, I always imagine the supreme God has the invisible force that create and binds the Universe as one entity. I don't want to argue based on what someone believes in but that point that there is no creator is what I don't agree upon. Am a christian because I choose to be one. Hardmirror is entitle to his ideas so am I.

HardMirror:

Good one there
I like what you are saying here. But then it does not validate the God of the bible or muslims or hindus, or greeks or romans or africans, God could be anything

It could be anything you think it is. Though I was a christian, I later became an agnotic but further on I became a christian. Your ideas aren't new to me, am still a small boy oo One day you will discover who is the true God.

Charlesdock:
Hardmirror has answered the question. When I was young, I always imagine the supreme God has the invisible force that create and binds the Universe as one entity. I don't want to argue based on what someone believes in but that point that there is no creator is what I don't agree upon. Am a christian because I choose to be one. Hardmirror is entitle to his ideas so am I.

So do you acknowledge that there could be more than one force that created and binds the universe? If so, does this not contradict the idea of a "Supreme creator"?

AgentOfAllah:


So do you acknowledge that there could be more than one force that created and binds the universe? If so, does this not contradict the idea of a "Supreme creator"?

I don't believe

Charlesdock:
I don't believe

I never asked if you believe. I asked if you acknowledge that possibility. My question is important since you feel it compulsory to accept the existence of some "supreme creator" as fact.

AgentOfAllah:


I never asked if you believe. I asked if you acknowledge that possibility. My question is important since you feel it compulsory to accept the existence of some "supreme creator" as fact.

I don't acknowledge the possibility that the creator could be more than one.

Charlesdock:
I don't acknowledge the possibility that the creator could be more than one.

So may I ask why?

AgentOfAllah:

So may I ask why?

Because that is the truth. C'est fini

Charlesdock:
Because that is the truth. C'est fini

How is that the truth? I mean, is there anything that asserts this truth, aside from an arbitrarily imposed assumption?

I think it is very wrong for HardMirror to have continued his story on a different thread instead of sticking with the original thread.

Please return to the original thread: https://www.nairaland.com/3078223/pastor-atheist-why-never-christian