davidylan:

joagbaje is not a christian. He's a CEC member . . . those are two different things.

Oh dear, are we about to have another fight about who the true christians are, or what christianity really is, etc etc. I don do that one tire, Me, I'll just sit back and watch. But make it interesting cos I don't want to be bored.

^^^^ I don [i]T[/i]aIE!   

KunleOshob:

I can see Viaro is really rearing up to tear Pastor agbaje apart

@joagbaje
answer the questions now or why all this evasive tatics don'tworry we would accept quotes from rapshodies of realities if you can not find any biblical quotes to support the heresies,

He may have torn you apart for your anti church stand , oh I see ,you have joined supporters club lets blow land on you again.

(a)     what is the meaning of "only begotten" in reference to Jesus Christ?

The term only begotten refers to The incarnation of Jesus on planet earth

John 1:14
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


(b)     what is the meaning of "firstbegotten" in reference to Jesus Christ?

This has to do with the resurrection of Christ from the dead


(c)     do you find anyone else described as "only begotten" in the same way as Jesus is?

Not exactly

(d) do the terms "only begotten" and "firstbegotten" mean the same things to you?

Nope

(e) when was Jesus Christ called "the only begotten" - before or after His resurrection?

It makes reference to only his incarnation before his death.

O pari

Joagbaje:
Using the phrase let you will be done is like saying "What will be will be" But what will be will not be until you do something about your faith.  The will of God is not suppposed to be a mysterious thing to you. You have the holyghost and you are supposed to know his will, not only that , you are responsible to make his will come to pass in your life. The will of God does not always come to pass until you cooperate with God .

The person praying for the will of God to be done his/her life must be praying with faith. That said i want to agree with Jo here (to an extent) that the will of God can only be done with the co-operation of the other party (This does not take away the fact that God can exercise his will when he chose to, irrespective of our position or view about the issue).  I believe we are given the freedom of choice, as result, people do ask for their will to be done instead of God’s will. Maybe it’s the reason a lot of Christians attend as much church program as available, go for all night marathon sessions and still have unresolved issues.  The issue of material prosperity is an example, it just won’t go round. So, cooperation is very important, what we want, how we live as Christians must align with the will of the Almighty.

@Zikky

I think the point you are trying to make is different from that of Joagbaje's and his origin in Word of Faith movement doctrine.

Of course, a person who refuses to get educated, learn a trade or seek employment etc cannot expect to be successful ------ that is not really a matter of God's will per se. That is a matter of the ordinary course of things ---- of general nature. Let us put it in terms of three simplistic propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

3. God has left some things to happen or not happen according to the natural order or according to man's decision/action; i.e. God has not imposed a will as to whether some things will happen or not.

OK: these are three propositions and people may agree or disagree. However, I put these propositions up to ask of people like Joagbaje and others who follow Word of Faith movement doctrine, which of these three things requires the cooperation of man or of "the Christian" for God's will to be done?

@ Enigma

Enigma:

@Zikky

I think the point you are trying to make is different from that of Joagbaje's and his origin in Word of Faith movement doctrine.

Of course, a person who refuses to get educated, learn a trade or seek employment etc cannot expect to be successful ------ that is not really a matter of God's will per se. That is a matter of the ordinary course of things ---- of general nature. Let us put it in terms of three simplistic propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

3. God has left some things to happen or not happen according to the natural order or according to man's decision/action; i.e. God has not imposed a will as to whether some things will happen or not.

OK: these are three propositions and people may agree or disagree. However, I put these propositions up to ask of people like Joagbaje and others who follow Word of Faith movement doctrine, which of these three things requires the cooperation of man or of "the Christian" for God's will to be done?

This is the point Ive been trying to pass across but its being hijacked to mean what I didnt say. God has good plan for all his children.But the good plan will not work out by itself. because satan is still on rampage, his name means opponent,resistor etc. God has good plan for us all

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Gods good plan will not just work out by itself.

Deut. 30:19
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

But despite this , God sometimes does some things without a mans cooperation but these so called sovereign manifestations still needs human cooperation through intercession. Saul got converted because people are praying. Peter ,Paul got delivered from prison and death because the saints were praying. God is always looking for an intercessor so that his will will come to pass.

Ezekiel 22:30-31
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. [31] Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.

God would have destroyed Israel several times if Moses had not interceded for them. He told God in one occasion to repent of the evil he was going to do in destroying the people, and THE SOVEREIGN GOD REPENTED.

Exodus 32:14
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
If moses had not interceded and God destroys them , today people will say, he is sovereign thats why he repent not.

God has given man sole responsibility for his life. He has to function in Gods designed plan to function in it.

Pls I dont follow the so called Word Of Faith doctrine. It is an escappee name tag here. But i believe in The Word of God as the word of faith.And anyone who has not known word of faith is still a baby.

@Joagbaje

Here are two of the three propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.


Which one of those two does God need your cooperation for His will to be done?

Joagbaje:

Pls I dont follow the so called Word Of Faith doctrine. It is an escappee name tag here. But i believe in The Word of God as the word of faith.And anyone who has not known word of faith is still a baby.

That is sheer nonsense! You have admitted before that you follow the teachings of Kenyon, Hagin & Copeland. We have demonstrated conclusively that these are the leaders of the Word of Faith movement. Also, we have told you that Oyakhilome simply parrots what those heretics teach/taught and bamboozle you guys with such and pretending to have some "revelation".

Finally, you have here repeated several doctrines or "understandings of the Bible" (if we may call it that) that only the Word of Faith movement and its associates or infectees hold to. The following which you have yourself stated or supported expressly are Word of Faith movement doctrine which makes you conclusively a WoFer or Word of Faith movement follower/adherent (and thus, in my personal view, a heretic):

1. Jesus was just a man who operated by faith

2. As a born-again Christian you are "god" or "God".

3. The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.



The ones below you didn't say expressly but you patently refused to deny them:

4.

Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

5.

Their [i.e. WoF] current living leader (after the death of Hagin snr), the most despicable Kenneth Copeland, has gone as far as saying any man could have died to save the sin of the world. Below is something he once said and has repeated in various ways a number of times: {snipped}

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

@ Enigma
can you quote any article where Kenyon or anyone claim there are starting a movement called word of faith. Can you also quote where I said that I follow Kenyon . all these people you mentioned don't all believe same things . I believe in some of their teachings but not necessary all. I believe in the teachings that agrees with the word of God. They all have different levels of understanding of truth. There is word of faith but there's is no such things as word of faith mvement.

Joagbaje:

@ Enigma
can you quote any article where Kenyon or anyone claim there are starting a movement called word of faith. Can you also quote where I said that I follow Kenyon . all these people you mentioned don't all believe same things . I believe in some of their teachings but not necessary all. I believe in the teachings that agrees with the word of God. They all have different levels of understanding of truth. There is word of faith but there's is no such things as word of faith mvement.

I am ready to answer this your last post: however, which of the five things I listed in the post before it do you subscribe to; and which do you disagree with?

Enigma:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

3. God has left some things to happen or not happen according to the natural order or according to man's decision/action; i.e. God has not imposed a will as to whether some things will happen or not.

I like the way you put it. True, my thoughts differs from Joe's. I was referring to proposition 1 in my post, but with a slight modification. i.e. there are those things that must happen and there are those things that will happen only if we allow the Almighty to lead us. It a mixture of 1 & 3 really.

Zikkyy:

I like the way you put it. True, my thoughts differs from Joe's. I was referring to proposition 1 in my post, but with a slight modification. i.e. there are those things that must happen and there are those things that will happen only if we allow the Almighty to lead us. It a mixture of 1 & 3 really.

I can live with that, Zikky.

"God's will" will be done whether we like it or not, Remember what happened to Jonah when he thought he could dictate for God.

Jesus Christ (our ONLY advocate) prayed for God's will to be done instead of his own, we must be VERY careful when we put HUMANS on a pedestal when there is no MORE middle man between God and man.

Joagbaje:

God has good plan for all his children.But the good plan will not work out by itself. because satan is still on rampage, his name means opponent,resistor etc. God has good plan for us all

This i always want to believe, but anytime i remember judas, well  

But it's good to note that the plan differs for every individual.

Joagbaje:

@ Enigma
Gods good plan will not just work out by itself.

Deut. 30:19
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

But you know this describe two scenarios, one of a christian and the other an unbeliever (idol worshipper). For a christian or one pleasing in God's sight, will it be the same?

Joagbaje:

God sometimes does some things without a mans cooperation but these so called sovereign manifestations still needs human cooperation through intercession. Saul got converted because people are praying. Peter ,Paul got delivered from prison and death because the saints were praying. God is always looking for an intercessor so that his will will come to pass.

Bros, this one pass me ooo. You are on your own here. You believe so much in this agency thing sha. So you can take your 10% commission abi? No forget agreement fee, thats another 10% am sure you can present it in a way that will be acceptable to the congregation

Dont mind me, too much work pressure. Needed a bit of distraction. I hope we are

ogajim:

"God's will" will be done whether we like it or not, Remember what happened to Jonah when he thought he could dictate for God.

Jesus Christ (our ONLY advocate) prayed for God's will to be done instead of his own, we must be VERY careful when we put HUMANS on a pedestal when there is no MORE middle man between God and man.

1 Kings 17:1
    And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the Lord God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Joshua 10:13
    And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
I though God has programmed when the sun should rise and set? A man changed that. What of HEZEKIAH didnt he changed what God said and planned?
 
2 Kings 20:1
    In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

My brother these where men that changed God's will at sometime, so there are things we can change.

nuella, everything you quoted came after Jesus Christ prayed " Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, "

You get my drift here?

Oops! I forgot some of the Pentecostal folks now consider "Our Lord's Prayer" insufficient

ogajim:

nuella, everything you quoted came after Jesus Christ prayed " Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, "

You get my drift here?

Oops! I forgot some of the Pentecostal folks now consider "Our Lord's Prayer" insufficient

What are you saying Joshua, Elijah etc where on earth before Jesus came o.

ogajim:

nuella, everything you quoted came after Jesus Christ prayed " Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, "

You get my drift here? . . .

And in any event --- how does any of those indicate someone "changing the will of God"?

A better example might have even been Abraham pleading with God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah ---- but even that does not accord with the Word of Faith movement's doctrine which is based on "speaking words of faith" or "exercising faith" rather than praying to or pleading with God.

When Jesus taught his disciples to pray did he say they should be reciting it or he gave them a pattern to pray? why is it called the lords prayer sef? Is he the person that prayed that prayer or he taught his disciples.

nuella2:

When Jesus taught his disciples to pray did he say they should be reciting it or he gave them a pattern to pray? why is it called the lords prayer sef? Is he the person that prayed that prayer or he taught his disciples.

What and how did Oyakhilome teach you about the Lord's prayer?

If you don't want to answer that one, then tell us your own perspective on the Lord's prayer!

Enigma:

And in any event --- how does any of those indicate someone "changing the will of God"?

A better example might have even been Abraham pleading with God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah ---- but even that does not accord with the Word of Faith movement's doctrine which is based on "speaking words of faith" or "exercising faith" rather than praying to or pleading with God.

What do you mean by will of God? Didnt God dialogue with Abraham on how to save that city? Dont bring word of faith here am quoting from the bible. So those events that were changed where what? Didnt GOD tell the man he was going to die? Did he die?

Enigma:

What and how did Oyakhilome teach you about the Lord's prayer?

If you don't want to answer that one, then tell us your own perspective on the Lord's prayer!

I asked a question my brother? Why is it called the lord's prayer? Is me and you with bible which one is Oyakhilome inside this matter?

nuella2:

What do you mean by will of God? Didnt God dialogue with Abraham on how to save that city? Dont bring word of faith here am quoting from the bible. So those events that were changed where what? Didnt GOD tell the man he was going to die? Did he die?

So when God dialogued with Abraham, God then needed the cooperation of Adam Abraham to make His own will come to pass? Was it not that God said to Adam Abraham, "OK I will not . . ." So how was Abraham's cooperation needed in relation to God's power for that which God would not indeed not to happen?

How about Hezekiah ---- when God said 'I have heard your prayer and I will heal you', what did Hezekiah have to do to compel God's power to do what he said 'I will' i.e. to heal him.

Christians worldwide believe in intercession; they do not see that as forcing/compelling God; they do not see the happening of that which they prayed for as something occurring by their own power or something they have made to happen --- but rather as something due to the divine grace of God.

Even Jesus Christ Himself prayed 'thy will be done' ---- was He less on the earth than the so called "mature born again man"?

nuella2:

I asked a question my brother? Why is it called the lord's prayer? Is me and you with bible which one is Oyakhilome inside this matter?

OK I'll keep Oyakhilome out of it for now; (We have had to mention his name because we know that a number of those arguing the nonsense that the Lord's prayer is for babies are his followers --- as many of them have admitted. Are you or are you not a member of his church and/or not a follower of his teachings?)

Anyway, if you go back and study the Bible passages relating to when Christ taught His disciples that prayer I would expect that you would not need to ask why it is called the Lord's prayer.

Enigma:

So when God dialogued with Abraham, God then needed the cooperation of Adam to make His own will come to pass? Was it not that God said to Adam, "OK I will not[/i] . . ." So how was Abraham's cooperation needed in relation to God's power for that which God would not indeed [b]not to happen?

How about Hezekiah ---- when God said 'I have heard your prayer and I[b] will heal you', what did Hezekiah have to compel God's power to do what he said 'I will' i.e. to heal [/b] him.

Christians worldwide believe in intercession; they do not see that as forcing/compelling God; they do not see the happening of that which they prayed for as something occurring by their own power or something they have made to happen --- but rather as something due to the divine grace of God.

Even Jesus Christ Himself prayed 'thy will be done' ---- was He less on the earth than the so called "mature born again man"?

But the man got his result abi? God changed his mind cos the man prayed? So did the will of God done at that time? My point is God's will can be changed sometimes and in some situation. God do not change, he is thesame yesterday, today and forever. Do you now agree that God's will has been changed before and can be changed today, by prayer and intercession of men?

nuella2:

When Jesus taught his disciples to pray did he say they should be reciting it or he gave them a pattern to pray? why is it called the lords prayer sef? Is he the person that prayed that prayer or he taught his disciples.

nuella: The Lord's Prayer aka Our Father or Pater Noster (if you're co inclined) was part of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount which our Lord Jesus Christ taught to deplore people who are used to grandiose prayers for the purpose of being seen to pray. It is a standard on how to pray, the ONLY standard that truly matters if you ask me.

nuella, Are you or anyone in your Church in any position to know the original will of God on any given matter? If parents often use different tactics to get their kids to perform or conform, how much more our Heavenly father?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, UNCF got that right all the way

nuella2:

But the man got his result abi? God changed his mind cos the man prayed? So did the will of God done at that time? My point is God's will can be changed sometimes and in some situation. God do not change, he is thesame yesterday, today and forever. Do you now agree that God's will has been changed before and can be changed today, by prayer and intercession of men?

You are confusing yourself: if God does not change, how do you change His will then?

So is it God that changes His own will/decision ----- or is it man that changes God's will/decision?

If God wills A and man wills B ----- can man bring B to pass if God does not change His mind?

Even if God does change His mind from A to B and B happens ---- was it the man that brought B to pass or was it God Himself that brought B to pass?

ogajim:

nuella: The Lord's Prayer aka Our Father or Pater Noster (if you're co inclined) was part of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount which our Lord Jesus Christ taught to deplore people who are used to grandiose prayers for the purpose of being seen to pray. It is a standard on how to pray, the ONLY standard that truly matters if you ask me.

Are we asked to recite it or its a pattern?
Did the apostles teach the brethren to recite that prayer?
What is the meaning of, pray in this manner, that Jesus told them?

ogajim:

nuella, Are you or anyone in your Church in any position to know the original will of God on any given matter? If parents often use different tactics to get their kids to perform or conform, how much more our Heavenly father?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, UNCF got that right all the way

Precisely!!!!!!!!!!!! And this begins to answer the question which observers might reasonably ask ----- does God change His own mind?

Similarly, people forget that God had already decided some things "even before the foundation of the world" according to the Bible. Anyway, I reckon that discussion is probably for another thread.