Enigma:

You are confusing yourself: if God does not change, how do you change His will then?

So is it God that changes His own will/decision ----- or is it man that changes God's will/decision?

If God wills A and man wills B ----- can man bring B to pass if God does not change His mind?

Even if God does change His mind from A to B and B happens ---- was it the man that brought B to pass or was it God Himself that brought B to pass?

nuella2:

God planned to do something , he concluded the matter that he even sent his prophet, the man prayed and God changed his mind, period. He(man) changed the will of God. If the man didnt pray he would have died.  He changed the will of God,,,again again,,,He (MAN) prayed and God changed his mind.

Enigma:

If that is your understanding, you can have it; I do not see the point of going round in circles.

nuella2:

Its God's word not my word, if am wrong show me from the bible. Your sounding like am wrong and you dont want to waste your time. Anyway it was great chatting with you. Takia.

Enigma:

You are right that I sounded like I did not want to waste my time. The reason is simple: my answer to the point you made is in my post that you quoted as well as in an earlier post where I said that Christians worldwide believe in intercession --- but that is not the same as forcing/compelling (or even preventing) the will of God.

You may argue that interceding to change God's mind is the same as changing the will of God; even IF I grant you that, what still transpires in the end is the will of God ---- either as He always planned it (or as His mind has apparently been changed.


If you can change the will of God, do you not think that it means you know better than God --- since the will of God was wrong or not good and therefore needed to be changed?

Anyway, I will not be surprised if you think you know better than god because in essence that is what adherents of the Word of faith movement really teach/believe ----- even if the less thoughtful ones do not realise it!

nuella2:

Which one is know better than God matter? How can i know better than God? Or are you tempting me? My point still remain that Man can change the will of God sometimes. If i say anything that is not in the bible show me, cant you talk without associating someone with this your word of faith stuff. If someone disagree with you then is word of faith, pls dont make me laugh. Whats my business if your Jehovah witness, this is a forum get use to it.

Enigma:

OK I wont refer to Word of Faith movement (if you like).

Second, already I am being dragged into gong round in circles, which I wanted to avoid ---- so I will just leave you with the last question once again.

If you can make God change His original will (A) to another one (B), does it not mean:
(1) that God was wrong to have chosen His original will (A); and
(2) that you know better than God since you chose (B) which God later agreed with you is better than His own original (A)?

nuella2:

No it do not mean you know better than God. If your father want to take you to uniport and you make him see you want unilag. Does it mean you know better than your father? God said lets reason together in his word. Once in the bible moses told God if you do this the Egyptians will say you could not take them to the promise land so you killed them, then God changed his mind.

Enigma:

See the bit I've underlined ---- thus:

Which would you rather have: that which God wills for you OR that which you will for yourself?

Enigma:

Do you see now that we are going round in circles?

As I said before, I'll leave you with your own understanding, the questions I posed and the statements that I made on page 3 (which actually cryptically answer your last question).

Enigma:

That is sheer nonsense! You have admitted before that you follow the teachings of Kenyon, Hagin & Copeland. We have demonstrated conclusively that these are the leaders of the Word of Faith movement. Also, we have told you that Oyakhilome simply parrots what those heretics teach/taught and bamboozle you guys with such and pretending to have some "revelation".

Finally, you have here repeated several doctrines or "understandings of the Bible" (if we may call it that) that only the Word of Faith movement and its associates or infectees hold to. The following which you have yourself stated or supported expressly are Word of Faith movement doctrine which makes you conclusively a WoFer or Word of Faith movement follower/adherent (and thus, in my personal view, a heretic):

1. Jesus was just a man who operated by faith

2. As a born-again Christian you are "god" or "God".

3. The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.



The ones below you didn't say expressly but you patently refused to deny them:

4.Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

5. Their [i.e. WoF] current living leader (after the death of Hagin snr), the most despicable Kenneth Copeland, has gone as far as saying any man could have died to save the sin of the world. Below is something he once said and has repeated in various ways a number of times: {snipped}

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

nuella2:

That is no answer. Is either you agree or disagree. What i understand by leaving me with my understanding, is like you want to "jump am pass".

Joagbaje:

@ Enigma

It will be of interest for you to know that pastor Chris does not believe in WOF movement , neither do I. Maybe when i see their constitution I will consider if I should, but I dont believe in associations. I believe in the word.If you are dealing with me , deal with me according to the word Wof or no Wof. The point is , If i say or teach , you should judge it by the word . I judge you teaching by the word , I dont need to tag you with a name or organisation. all pentecostals believes different things, Oyedepo wash feet, and use annointing oil, Deeper life dont do either. You dont say all pentecostal use oil because they dont. Wof members . if theres anything like that may teach what I agree with according to truth that doesnt mean we all believe thesame thing. Quote the bible to judge my post not this so called Wof whatever.I have deeper understanding than some of these so called Wof. It will be degrading for me to say I follow them.

Joagbaje:

Kenyon was in school where some people there believe in metaphysics and some funny dotrines in his days but that didnt make him one of them. I will recomend you to read any of Kenyon's book Your life will turn arround.

Let me share a testimony with you if you care;  I used to be sick of malaria almost every week , from childhood, People told me i would grow tall , that that is why i fall sick often, I consoled myself that I will be able to play basket ball in future as a tall man. But at the age of 21,I had a miracle drug called sunday sunday medicine , Every week i just take it, i lived on that drug to prevent malaria. I came in contact with a small book by E.W.Kenyon titled "Jesus The Healer" I read and read, i realised that Jesus has borne away not just my sin but all my sickness as well. I followed the instructions in the book ,  i stopped my drugs, Malaria soon hit me ;vomitting,pains, cold ,heat,weakness. Then i remember what Kenyon taught , then I began to confess "by his stripes I was healed" "by his stripes, " etc. 30 mins after every symtoms disappeared .I had 2 more attacks later that year and no more drugs despite the mosquitoes then.ever since that time no more malaria. Now 20 years after, No more malaria.  Just a small book. I had to go and pack all kenyons books in print for my library.

Dont give the devil chance in your life, belive in Gods word. Why will I deny the things that has worked for me and is working for me and for hundreds of millions of people. Edakun jare .The word works!

Enigma:

. . .

1. Jesus was just a man who operated by faith

2. As a born-again Christian you are "god" or "God".

3. The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.



The ones below you didn't say expressly but you patently refused to deny them:

4.

Quote
Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

5.

Their [i.e. WoF] current living leader (after the death of Hagin snr), the most despicable Kenneth Copeland, has gone as far as saying any man could have died to save the sin of the world. Below is something he once said and has repeated in various ways a number of times: {snipped}

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

Enigma:

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

Joagbaje:

The teaching of pastor Chris is far far deeper than all these people you are calling.So there is no point making reference to word of fAith movement. Of course there are some common grounds. I don't want to know your denomination, I want to judge you by your words and the word of God.

[size=16pt]The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.![/size]

Joagbaje:

@Enigma

1 Tim. 2:3-4
   For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Question; Are all men  saved? No of course why is the will of God not come to pass. Because man has a choice to agree or not. The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.!




We pray to enforce his will in our world.

Dude actually went this far to say the CREATOR of HEAVEN and Earth has no AUTHORITY in this World?

May God forgive you for this fallacy: So just because you allowed a kid to occupy a room in your house means you have ceded control to him/her?

As always, we expect Joagbage to take a time out and maybe beat it out of this thread, once cornered, these guys either use their other aliases or take some time off

InesQor:

@Joagbaje: CEC and Pastor Oyakhilome aside, can you explain this quote of yours in post #109 on this thread, with the adequate backing of scriptural references?

[size=16pt]

The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.!

[/size]

---

Joagbaje:

The teaching of pastor Chris is far far deeper than all these people you are calling.So there is no point making reference to word of fAith movement. Of course there are some common grounds. I don't want to know your denomination, I want to judge you by your words and the word of God.

Enigma:

[/font][/size]

---

I'm sure this is one of the "far far deeper" teachings --- but see one of the earlier sources of the teaching by WoF head honcho Kenneth Copeland

davidylan:

yeah . . . far far deeper in heresy.

InesQor:

@Joagbaje: CEC and Pastor Oyakhilome aside, can you explain this quote of yours in post #109 on this thread, with the adequate backing of scriptural references?

[size=15pt]The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.![/size]

Also, please answer also the simple question I am posing to nuella2 below. Thanks.

---

@Nuella2: [size=16pt]Do you believe that there are things that no matter your level of faith, understanding, revelation or anything, God will do and there's nothing you can do about it?[/size]

QInesor:

Kai! Kenneth Copeland Says God Is Banned From The Earth Unless The Church Allows Him!?

That's sick!!!

And I recall when I used to be a partner of KCM Ministries. . . almost ten years ago. I didn't know I was partially supporting the spread of spiritual diseases. Wow!!!

InesQor:

can you explain this quote of yours in post #109 on this thread, with the adequate backing of scriptural references?

The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.!

Also, please answer also the simple question I am posing to nuella2 below. Thanks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


@Nuella2: Do you believe that there are things that no matter your level of faith, understanding, revelation or anything, God will do and there's nothing you can do about it?
.

God is a just God, and there are laws he has set in the universe. He himself is bound by those laws and has to [b]submit his omnipotence to the rules he has set.[/b]

It is man that has legal right to function on this planet . Spirits are not allowed. God is spirit, demons are spirits, man is spirit.

God will not come down to the earth to do things. It will be illegal. He would be braking rules.

Why didnt God just kill satan, why does he allow temptations and other things. Because there are rules!

Joagbaje:

Noobody can ban God . But the Issue is ,God is a just God, and there are laws he has set in the universe. He himself is bound by those laws and has to submit his omnipotence to the rules he has set.

See, Joagbaje, Enigma and co will keep calling you WOF as long as you keep saying these things, because these are the things preached by WOF. You may say you are not WOF, but you say EXACTLY the same thing they say, which the rest of the Christian body does not agree with:

Please provide Biblical references for these claims.

God is a just God, and there are laws he has set in the universe. He himself is bound by those laws and has to submit his omnipotence to the rules he has set.

It is man that has legal right to function on this planet . Spirits are not allowed. God is spirit, demons are spirits, man is spirit.
Can you see your self-contradiction in the above claim? (outlined in green?) man is spirit but spirits are not allowed to function on earth?

Foul! God came down to earth in Noah's day, in Abraham's day, in Joshua's day, and there is no law that prevents him from doing that again AT ANY TIME HE PLEASES. He was not breaking rules when he said "Should I not tell Abraham how I intend to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah?", no he wasn't breaking rules. He could have decided not to tell Abraham, and destroyed the city, but he told him so that Abraham will set an example of intercession for us.

Kai! What is this? God has already reserved the hell-fire for Satan. It's like saying someone has been convicted in the court and the court police are leading the murderer to the electric chair, and Joagbaje is asking, why not shoot the guy down immediately? Because it seems like a long time before the murderer gets to the electric chair, does not mean he won't get there. It's with YOU, a human being, that it seems its taking long.

Finally, tell me, Joagbaje, what you understand by the verse below, in respect of God's Will and what he can do on earth without anybody's interference or "authority":

[size=14pt]Exo 3:14  And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM and WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE; and He said, You shall say this to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you![/size]