vaxx:
survival

Exactly. And that has driven all the advancement we have as a specie.
From our transition to farmers from hunter gatherers which allowed us to form small settlement as we no longer needed migrate for food.
This in turn meant evolving social norms to manage our relations with each other in group settings otherwise we would have killed each other off. We evolved social norms to ensure our survival, so things are adopted as they evolve if they are in the interests of the group at large or not detrimental to our survival as species.
Where is morality in all of this?

dalaman:


Of course. They just did the in the United states. If you are in the US and happen to be a judge that weds people in the courts and gays come to you to wed them, you must do it because it is the law of the land and you can NOT be seen discriminating against them. You do it and you lose your Job or face severe sanctions.

Would you have relations with a gay person?

vaxx:
you do not belive in God existence... So my definition on what is God consciousness to you will not be accepted.... But you have not deal with my question...what is good and bad in the light of common sense? Let's forget about God now....

I don't need to believe in God to understand things of they are well explained.

Good and bad is based on the society and what it choses through its leadership.

butterflyl1on:


Would you have relations with a gay person?

Sexual relationship?

shaybebaby:

Exactly. And that has driven all the advancement we have as a specie.
From our transition to farmers from hunter gatherers which allowed us to form small settlement as we no longer needed migrate for food.
This in turn meant evolving social norms to manage our relations with each other in group settings otherwise we would have killed each other off. We evolved social norms to ensure our survival, so things are adopted as they evolve if they are in the interests of the group at large or not detrimental to our survival as species.
Where is morality in all of this?

As long as ANYTHING is interest driven morality is inherent.

dalaman:


Sexual relationship?

Yes!. It's now fully legal remember?

dalaman:


Of course. They just did the in the United states. If you are in the US and happen to be a judge that weds people in the courts and gays come to you to wed them, you must do it because it is the law of the land and you can NOT be seen discriminating against them. You do it and you lose your Job or face severe sanctions.

buterflyl1on argument close....if today his daughter accept to marry a dog ....he will gladly accept so far the law of the land accept it as moral now....dalaman it is not an intended insult ....it just a way to make the moral act of bestiality look shameful

dalaman:


I don't need to believe in God to understand things of they are well explained.

Good and bad is based on the society and what it choses through its leadership.

we both agree...it is subjective.... And that birth another question... What do you consider good and bad?

vaxx:
buterflyl1on argument close....if today his daughter accept to marry a dog ....he will gladly accept so far the law of the land accept it as moral now....dalaman it is not an intended insult ....it just a way to make the moral act of bestiality look shameful

Yes and if he refuses he would answer to the law man imposed on him as right.

butterflyl1on:


Husband needs a child for sake of posterity but has been unable to impregnate wife. She decides for his sake to try outside so as to give him a child without his knowledge. She succeeds! He is happy and so is she.

2. Someone you do not like coming around your wife comes for a visit and asks for her and you say she is out while she is sleeping in the room. Deceptively making sure he does not see her.

She did hers for sake of your joy

You did yours for sake of peace

Are those deceptions bad?

1) For the sake of posterity, he STILL does not have child. Even if he is not aware.
Are you saying given a choice, you would prefer to live in ignorance?
2)wouldnt it have been better to speak up and stop the nuisance once and for all?

In both cases, what you highlighted are instances of denial; people who are unable to deal with reality. And you want to call this good? Smh

vaxx:
buterflyl1on argument close....if today his daughter accept to marry a dog ....he will gladly accept so far the law of the land accept it as moral now....dalaman it is not an intended insult ....it just a way to make the moral act of bestiality look shameful

You probably shouldn't compare homosexuality with bestiality. Consent is not trivial.

butterflyl1on:


As long as ANYTHING is interest driven morality is inherent.

So when a lion stalks it's prey, to feed its hunger which is in its interest to ensure survival, it is moral?

shaybebaby:

1) For the sake of posterity, he STILL does not have child. Even if he is not aware.
Are you saying given a choice, you would prefer to live in ignorance?
2)wouldnt it have been better to speak up and stop the nuisance once and for all?

In both cases, what you highlighted are instances of denial; people who are unable to deal with reality. And you want to call this good? Smh

I didn't call it good. I gave examples and asked you if such is bad deception

You call it denial. They say you are wrong.

butterflyl1on:


Good!

if those who crave sodomy now lobby and harass the Senate / parliament to make it legal and they do. would you subscribe to it as the latest moral law?

If a thing is positive, pleasant and desirable to me, makes me happy, and is not found to harm me or make me sad, then I may subscribe to it. What about you?

butterflyl1on:


Yes and if he refuses he would answer to the law man imposed on him as right.

it will be term denial of freedom? An under court of law , the court may likely impose penalty on him for holding the right and freedom of a fellow human

shaybebaby:

So when a lion stalks it's prey, to feed its hunger which is in its interest to ensure survival, it is moral?

Your comment

so things are adopted as they evolve if they are in the interests of the group at large or not detrimental to our survival as species

As long as its humans then morality is inherent. We already established that animals have no morals so those are not part of this discussion .

dalaman:


In reality there is no society where 99% will see nothing wrong with murder rape and racism. That is why I told you to tell us why it is beneficial to the society. Even in a society where 99% are rapist they will NOT be able to tell.you why rape is beneficial to the society.

You, sir, agreed that such a society could exist i.e. the probability of its existence is not zero. Note: no one cares whether it exists for 1 second or for 1 trillion years.

You, sir, also said that leaders determine what is beneficial for the members of the society. (I no argue o)

Remember, sir, the leaders in this our "society" are among the 99.9% who say each that racism, murder and adultery is beneficial for them(maybe because it gives them pleasure at the expense of others.)

If according to you, leaders determine what is beneficial /right for the society, would the leaders of this our "society" not deem racism, murder and adultery beneficial/right for the society? If they would, are these things really right?

If they would not, why?

AgentOfAllah:

You probably shouldn't compare homosexuality with bestiality. Consent is not trivial.

I am treating them independently.... Bestially is one aspect of human interest (people do it) and likewise homosexual....my interest here is bestiality...

vaxx:
buterflyl1on argument close....if today his daughter accept to marry a dog ....he will gladly accept so far the law of the land accept it as moral now....dalaman it is not an intended insult ....it just a way to make the moral act of bestiality look shameful

Of course if the society accepts bestiality you will see it as normal. Remember when slavery was accepted people were busy enslaving others.

This pictures are pictures of people living in the US some 100 years ago.

These were your normal Americans that were living at that time. They didn't see anything wrong killing and lyching black people, to most of them it was a thing of pride. Remember these were your average Americans living in the south at that time.

DoctorAlien:


You, sir, agreed that such a society could exist i.e. the probability of its existence is not zero. Note: no one cares whether it exists for 1 second or for 1 trillion years.

You, sir, also said that leaders determine what is beneficial for the members of the society. (I no argue o)

Remember, sir, the leaders in this our "society" are among the 99.9% who say each that racism, murder and adultery is beneficial for them(maybe because it gives them pleasure at the expense of others.)

If according to you, leaders determine what is beneficial /right for the society, would the leaders of this our "society" not deem racism, murder and adultery beneficial/right for the society? If they would, are these things really right?

If they would not, why?

Dalaman to add to what DoctorAlien said here, in the days of GEJ He made a declaration that stealing is not corruption which was an underhanded way of endorsing looting and we saw a mass exodus of our common wealth under him.

Would you say he was wrong to have said or done that Afterall he is one of your leaders who determined the societal laws.

DoctorAlien:


You, sir, agreed that such a society could exist i.e. the probability of its existence is not zero. Note: no one cares whether it exists for 1 second or for 1 trillion years.

You, sir, also said that leaders determine what is beneficial for the members of the society. (I no argue o)

Remember, sir, the leaders in this our "society" are among the 99.9% who say each that racism, murder and adultery is beneficial for them(maybe because it gives them pleasure at the expense of others.)

If according to you, leaders determine what is beneficial /right for the society, would the leaders of this our "society" not deem racism, murder and adultery beneficial/right for the society? If they would, are these things really right?

If they would not, why?

No, until you can demonstrate to me why rape, murder and racism is beneficial to any society I see no reason to accept anything you say regarding the leadership of this society saying that it is beneficial to the society.

vaxx:
buterflyl1on argument close....if today his daughter accept to marry a dog ....he will gladly accept so far the law of the land accept it as moral now....dalaman it is not an intended insult ....it just a way to make the moral act of bestiality look shameful

Just to clarify, for consent to be deemed legal, the parties must be judged as having the mental capacity(as defined by law) to be able to give one.

So you see, when mental capacity was defined legally, the definition kinds of rules out animals which is why bestiality cannot become legal(in the UK atleast). It also rules out minors, people with mental difficulties etc

To prove that homosexuality should get the same treatment, you will need to show medical evidence that it is a form of mental impairment and such consent is invalid even if both parties are legally adults.

butterflyl1on:


Dalaman to add to what DoctorAlien said here, in the days of GEJ He made a declaration that stealing is not corruption which was an underhanded way of endorsing looting and we saw a mass exodus if our common wealth under him.

Would you say he was wrong to have said or done that Afterall he is one of your leaders who determined the societal laws.

Stealing is corruption under the constitution. A leader can violate the constitution but it doesn't make their actions right in the eyes of the law of the land.

The Nigerian constitution is what guides our conduct as a people, GEJ alone can not change it. He can only violate it which makes his actions wrong.

shaybebaby:

Exactly. And that has driven all the advancement we have as a specie.
From our transition to farmers from hunter gatherers which allowed us to form small settlement as we no longer needed migrate for food.
This in turn meant evolving social norms to manage our relations with each other in group settings otherwise we would have killed each other off. We evolved social norms to ensure our survival, so things are adopted as they evolve if they are in the interests of the group at large or not detrimental to our survival as species.
Where is morality in all of this?

this is not true,Neanderthal were better survival like human...where are they today?

Our past generation fought first and second world war for survival ....one develop interest to rule over his peers due to selfish interest...


If selfishness is not consider moral, why the war?

butterflyl1on:


Your comment



As long as its humans then morality is inherent. We already established that animals have no morals so those are not part of this discussion .

We are animals too so I see every point.
On the most basic level, their entire existence is driven by survival, same as ours. If according to you survival is synonymous to morality, then you cannot exclude other living things.

dalaman:


No, until you can demonstrate to me why rape, murder and racism is beneficial to any society I see no reason to accept anything you say regarding the leadership of this society saying that it is beneficial to the society.

racism is part of evolutionary natural selection of these weak being left behind while the strong go forward.

Murder can be beneficial if the target is a threat to national interest or societal values.

Rape can be beneficial to someone who wants to use it to make a claim to government grants. If he or she know this, then they can arrange for their own rape for this purpose.

All these scenarios are beneficial to these individuals who make up the society. This is why we can have people inflicting accidents on themselves for the sake of making insurance claims to their own benefit as a part of the society. A lot of people in the society are doing so.

dalaman:


Stealing is corruption under the constitution. A leader can violate the constitution but it doesn't make their actions right in the eyes of the law of the land.

The Nigerian constitution is what guides our conduct as a people, GEJ alone can not change it. He can only violate it which makes his actions wrong.

Can you show me where in your constitution it declares stealing as corruption?

shaybebaby:

Just to clarify, for consent to be deemed legal, the parties must be judged as having the mental capacity(as defined by law) to be able to give one.

So you see, when mental capacity was defined legally, the definition kinds of rules out animals which is why bestiality cannot become legal(in the UK atleast). It also rules out minors, people with mental difficulties etc

To prove that homosexuality should get the same treatment, you will need to show medical evidence that it is a form of mental impairment and such consent is invalid even if both parties are legally adults.

your evidence is not substantiate...saudi Arabia law is base on sharia system totally difference from British law...a legitimate contract may exist between husband and wife so far it has family agreement and not necessary daughter agreement....

dalaman:


No, until you can demonstrate to me why rape, murder and racism is beneficial to any society I see no reason to accept anything you say regarding the leadership of this society saying that it is beneficial to the society.

Sir, but you were the one that agreed that the leaders determine what is beneficial/right for the society.

You also agreed that the probability of a society where 99.9% of the members say each that racism, murder and adultery is beneficial to them, and where the leaders of the society are among the 99.9%, to exist is not 0. (We don't care whether the society exists for just 1 second or for 1 trillion years.)

In such a society, would the leaders deem racism, murder and adultery beneficial / good for the society? If yes, are these things really good?

If they would not deem them good, why?

(I don't understand why you're asking me to tell you how those things are beneficial to the society. Am I part of the society? )

shaybebaby:

We are animals too so I see every point.
On the most basic level, their entire existence is driven by survival, same as ours. If according to you survival is synonymous to morality, then you cannot exclude other living things.

No. Their survival knows no morals except that imposed on them by us. We are the moral agents and we are the ones who interpret morality in accordance to our perspective. The animals know nothing and do not care.

dalaman:


Of course if the society accepts bestiality you will see it as normal. Remember when slavery was accepted people were busy enslaving others.

This pictures are pictures of people living in the US some 100 years ago.

These were your normal Americans that were living at that time. They didn't see anything wrong killing and lyching black people, to most of them it was a thing of pride. Remember these were your average Americans living in the south at that time.

argument settled.

butterflyl1on:


racism is part of evolutionary natural selection of these weak being left behind while the strong go forward.

Empty assertion, how is it beneficial to the society?

Murder can be beneficial if the target is a threat to national interest or societal values.

In this case it is NOT murder. Eliminating anybody that is a threat to national interest or peace of the society as a whole is NOT murder. Most societies encourage that as a matter of fact.

Rape can be beneficial to someone who wants to use it to make a claim to government grants. If he or she know this, then they can arrange for their own rape for this purpose.

I didn't say you should tell me why rape is beneficial to some fraudulent person that wants to use it to get grants. You are to tell me why it is beneficial to the society as a whole.

All these scenarios are beneficial to these individuals who make up the society. This is why we can have people inflicting accidents on themselves for the sake of making insurance claims to their own benefit as a part of the society. A lot of people in the society are doing so.

People doing these acts are violating the laws of the land. I am not asking for examples of fraudulent people. I just want to know the general benefit of rape to a society at large.