I am tired of debating basic ABC/123 Christianity with these ignoramuses; once again, I wish they hadn't come on this thread but agree with Jesoul that we have at least exposed their ignorance for the sake of sane people reading this material.

Anyway, to soothe my spirit I take comfort in the below:

http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh098.sht

1. To God be the glory, great things he hath done! 
So loved he the world that he gave us his Son,
who yielded his life an atonement for sin,
and opened the lifegate that all may go in.

Refrain:
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
let the earth hear his voice! 
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
let the people rejoice!
O come to the Father thru Jesus the Son,
and give him the glory, great things he hath done!

2. O perfect redemption, the purchase of blood,
to every believer the promise of God;
the vilest offender who truly believes,
that moment from Jesus a pardon receives.
(Refrain)

3. Great things he hath taught us, great things he hath done,
and great our rejoicing thru Jesus the Son;
but purer, and higher, and greater will be
our wonder, our transport, when Jesus we see.
(Refrain)

Wow!!! what a thread.

A sinner is not more of a sinner when he sins. The Adamic nature that he inherited made him a sinner. The cure is Jesus christ.

Romans 5:12
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:15
    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Enigma:

Joagbaje/CEC/Word of Faith disease laid bare (by a former WoFer, Rhema graduate who studied under Hagin at that!):

From http://faithpreacher..com/

The innocent WoFers are a confused and ignorant lot while the leaders are despicable heretics.

This Joagbaje who is denying "atonement" will soon turn around and tell you there is "healing in the atonement" using Isaiah 53. It is what aletheia calls the ;DHumpty Dumpty syndrome: a word is what I want it to mean; if this means I want to use the word white to describe what everyone else can see is black then white it is; I could of course be inconsistent and next minute, use the word white for another thing that everyone can indeed see is white ---- madness!


Somebody who does not even have English comprehension now becomes a master on how Greek and Hebrew words should be translated! Prideful and arrogant ignoramuses! Katallage ko, katallage ni!

This is what you people do ,When you get into a fix , you come up with abuses and hide inside wofer labelling. You don't even understand simple soteriology ( doctine of salvation) Wofer ko Nasco wafers ni! You think you are the only one that can abuse. I will give you your own now. " Buroda onimu gogoro bi petesi adelabu!"
I challenge you in clear terms to explain salvation. What it means to have eternal life. What do you you understand as the difference between the Christian and umbeliever. Define it and stop bringing up distracting " ye are god" question to derail threads!

@Joagabaje

I will explain salvation to you if you want. But only after you address the matter below which I have raised twice already now!


How did David obtain God's forgiveness after the Bathsheba affair?

What about Psalm 51? What does that do?

I explained this yesterday , there was provision for forgiveness under OT. which ran till Jesus died. Now that Jesus is highpriest . The Jews can no longer recieve forgiveness by levitical system now.

Joagbaje
I want to believe that the corrections you're receiving are filtering in. Please do not repeat the same mistakes again, it makes learning pointless.
Now, sin and righteousness are both natures, but they are also single acts. Sin is A transgression of the law, that's NT. One transgression, one act. EVERY unrighteousness is sin, notice EVERY. Also there are deeds/fruits of righteousness.
Now you're talking eternal security, I'll imagine you've never read of Ananias and Sapphira or of Demas. Ezekiel 3v20

Joagbaje:

I explained this yesterday , there was provision for forgiveness under OT. which ran till Jesus died. Now that Jesus is highpriest . The Jews can no longer recieve forgiveness by levitical system now.

What was rthis provision?

I'm afraid I have toask again: how did David obtain forgiveness after the Bathsheba affair? Or, if you like what provision exactly did he use "for [his] forgiveness"?

'a man may have done a crazy thing doesn't make him a crazy man. Therefore, no good work makes a sinner good AND no bad work makes a christian bad.'
This above line of arguement is UNSCRIPTURAL. It's a flawed logic. I'll prefer this one below.
i'll compare a sinner to bad/spoilt food, and a christian to good food. It's easier, almost natural for good food to become bad food than vice-versa. Bad food turning to good food takes a miracle/conversion. No matter what you do with bad food, it's still bad, except there's a miracle. Put it in the fridge or fine ceramic, its still bad. But good food don't act that way. Pour it on the floor and it's on its way to, if  not already BAD. Get it? 1corinthians 10v12

Enigma:

I am tired of debating basic ABC/123 Christianity with these ignoramuses; once again, I wish they hadn't come on this thread but agree with Jesoul that we have at least exposed their ignorance for the sake of sane people reading this material.

I must commend your patience for sticking with Joagbaje thus far, but he had already revealed his hand early on and nothing was going to budge him
1. Post #25 here

For your information , the only person that can sin is a christian!. What ever evil an unsaved man commits is not a sin. He is the embodiment of sin already! He cant be forgiven, but its only a christian that can sin and recieve forgiveness.

2. Post #56 here

It was a legitimate prayer under their dispensation. The standard of righteousness was different from the Church age. there was forgiveness and atonement under judaism. But no remission. Jeus has brought remmission. a man has to embrace remmision first before he can be qualified for forgiveness.

Notice how he plays around with words.
1. His doctrine would have no one saved since ALL are born sinners and therefore can not be forgiven. By his weird logic, unsaved men cannot sin (despite what God Himself declares). Only Christians sin and receive forgiveness - an illogical conclusion since no one is born a Christian but must get to that position from that of being a sinner. So how could they have received forgiveness (transforming them to Christians) if they were as yet unsaved and therefore unforgiveable?

2. He makes the claim that God has shifting standards of righteousness. So by his understanding Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Elisha, et al, were justified by different standards from believers in Jesus Christ, not understanding that both OT and NT saints are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. In order to justify his shenanigans, he redefines the word remission, hence the impossible statement by Joagbaje: "there was forgiveness and atonement under judaism. But no remission."
Really? What then are we to make of these then:

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

aletheia:


2. He makes the claim that God has shifting standards of righteousness. So by his (addendum: Joagbaje's) understanding Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Elisha, et al, were justified by different standards from believers in Jesus Christ, not understanding that both OT and NT saints are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

This is the crux of the matter!!!!!!!!!!!! This is what I was coming to!!!!!!!!

The "blood of the Lamb"; the blood that was shed for ALL; the blood that was shed for us even whilst we were still sinners!!! The same blood that indeed is the source of the redemption of both Old Testament and New Testament saints!

You guys still don't get it, do you?

We have differing standards: whist you (and me) are quoting from the Bible, he (they) has revelation knowledge not available to even the Apostles (maybe even to Jesus Himself) and is quoting from the ROR which shifts and turns and remains consistent only when tithing and first fruits are concerned

nuclearboy

You are right; it has just occurred to me (to rephrase an old joke) that the Rhapsody of Realities was the bible version that even the apostle Paul himself used!

LOL I norr fit laugh abeg

Enigma and Image 123
please could you define ;
1. If a non Christian asks God for forgiveness, if he should die in that state of not being born again, what becomes of him?
2.What it is to be born again.

@ Altheia.
It is so amazing how you misunderstand my posts pretend to misundertand them by deliberately twisting the meaning and intetions. I wish I have all the time to respond to your lenghty post.

You should know That standard of righteousness has changed in NT from OT. Men were made righteous by works back then, but now men are made righteous by faith in Christ by being born again.

This sc
[Quote]
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.[/quote]

This scripture of yoursa was prayer of David when he sinned by taking a man's wife and killing the husband. So did God wipe out his transgression? , He was punished for it. He prayed for the sick child, the child still died. Nathan pronounce judgement on david,It came to pass.

2 Samuel 12:10-12
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. [11] Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. [12] For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.



[Quote]
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,[/quote]

Mark the highlighted part, "cover" God covered their sins . Thats the primary meaning for atonement.
The blood of bulls cannot take sins away ma.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Joagbaje

I have seen your most recent questions and I will happily answer them -- BUT only after you have addressed this point that I have been asking you for three days or so now!

Joagbaje:

I explained this yesterday , there was provision for forgiveness under OT. which ran till Jesus died.  Now that Jesus is highpriest . The Jews can no longer recieve forgiveness by levitical system now.

What was this provision?

I'm afraid I have to ask again: how did David obtain forgiveness after the Bathsheba affair? Or, if you like what provision exactly did he use "for [his] forgiveness"?


PS You have just made another blunder; you are just full of it really!

Joagbaje:


You should know That standard of righteousness has changed in NT from OT. Men were made righteous by works back then, but now men are made righteous by faith in Christ by being born again.

That is sheer nonsense and shows your ignorance!!!!!!!! I will deal with this later also after you deal with that issue of David & Bathsheba and "Old Testament provision".

chai!!! this is pathetic. The elementary doctrines of christianity has become a problem. Understanding righteosness in the old testament era and the righteosness of faith that is a gift now as become difficult to understand. I tell people is not by grammer and been religious in a sense, that make someone understand scriptures.Someone can quote every verse in the bible and still be so ignorant. I feel like crying. How can a christian not know the diff btw what the blood of Jesus did and the blood of animals. Even as simple as how to become a christian, the kind of prayer to make. Who is a sinner and what made him a sinner?
When a sinner become born again what he obtains and becomes by grace. Was anybody made righteous by grace in the old testament? What brought about grace today?

Elementary doctrines like this that every 3months old christian should know sef.

A fish is a fish weda he refuses to swim in the river he is living in, abi he do not drink water again from that river he is living in. What makes him a fish is his nature. So is a sinner.

If a teacher declares the standard to pass his paper, that is it. If you like write all you know that the teacher did not instruct you to, you will still fail. If the teacher says the standard to pass his paper is to write his name in capital letters. An intelligent student may decide to see the exam as too simple to be true, but thats the instruction if you want to pass.

2 Cor. 5:21
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Ephes. 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


We are saved by grace through faith. What a gospel(goodnews).

This confessional prayer is what the sinner needs.

Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joagbaje:

@ Altheia.
You should know That standard of righteousness has changed in NT from OT. Men were made righteous by works back then, but now men are made righteous by faith in Christ by being born again.
[center]. . .[/center]
Mark the highlighted part, "cover"  God covered their sins . Thats the primary meaning for atonement.
The blood of bulls cannot take sins away ma.

Hebrews 10:4
   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Thank for responding. I disagree with you that the standard of righteousness has changed. It hasn't changed. No one was made righteous by works in the OT.

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4  Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5  And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6  just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

Was Abraham justified by works?

nuella2:

chai!!! this is pathetic. The elementary doctrines of christianity has become a problem. Understanding righteosness in the old testament era and the righteosness of faith that is a gift now as become difficult to understand.

Have you realized that remission=forgiveness? You sort of disappeared after this was pointed out. Righteousness both OT & NT is on the basis of faith. Perhaps you do not realize what these scriptures all in the OT mean?

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

As pointed in Romans: Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Was Abraham put right with God on the basis of works or faith?

Hab 2:4 "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Apparently you are the one who has difficulty understanding the elementary doctrines of Christianity. Stop reading ROR and study the bible.

Thanks for those last two posts, aletheia. It seems clear now that Joagbaje cannot really deal with the question of how Old Testament saints were saved hence his avoidance of explaining his own statement on the "provision" that was made in the OT; accordingly, I guess we are better off explaining basics to him as you just did.

@Joagbaje

You only open yourself to ridicule if you continue with your claim that Old Testament people "were made righteous by works"!!!! See the scripture put up by aletheia:

Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Is it not clear that Abraham was not justified by works? What led to Abraham's justification was his faith in God which was counted for him as righteousness. I hope you believe in the Trinity We will be within reason to suggest that by believing in God the Father, Abraham had believed in Jesus Christ even though Jesus Christ was yet to come in the flesh.

With regard to the forgiveness of sins in the Old Testament: I wonder how you can deny that sins were forgiven in the Old Testament despite the abundance of evidence of people whose sins were forgiven (including some that had been already pointed out on this thread) such as the publican, the woman caught in adultery, the paralytic (Mark 2:5), even David after the Bathsheba affair despite the death of the child (or was it not the same David and Bathsheba who had Solomon and who was thus in the lineage of Jesus Christ?).

Also, make a distinction between forgiveness of individual sinS and justification unto righteousness. Even when the OT Jews used to make an "atonement" with animal sacrifice, did they not commit sinS between one sacrifice and the next sacrifice. Remember that some of these sacrifices were done annually. Thus if Mr A sacrifices an animal on the first of January and by March and April he had committed lots of sinS and he dies in June before his next sacrifice, was he justified or saved by his last "atonement" through his last animal sacrifice? Or perhaps his eternal destiny was based on something more than the "atonement" done by his last animal sacrifice. Go back to Abraham for a minute, was Abraham justified by "atonement" through animal sacrifice ------------ or something much more i.e. his faith in God?

I will leave these for you to digest for now so as to keep things simple.

Joagbaje:

Enigma and Image 123
please could you define ;
1. If a non Christian asks God for forgiveness, if he should die in that state of not being born again, what becomes of him?
2.What it is to be born again.

I think Joagbaje is learning and I thank God for that. He's being quite 'sheepish' now. I just hope it's the real sheep behaviour and not just sheep clothing.
Now if a non christian asks God for forgiveness, he'll be forgiven. He'll die forfiven. He that confesses his sin will have mercy. Thats the promise in Proverbs 28v13. Jesus says I'll in NO WISE cast out.
Two, to be born again is to be born anew. Every human is born once and they are all dead for all have sinned. But when you're born again, you receive new life, eternal life, power to become the child of God. That of course comes with forgiveness and power over sin. He will save his people from their sins

@aletheia
forgiveness= remission  can you explain. You mean if a prostitute keep on asking for forgiveness after the days job. Her sins are remitted? What will you tell her to be saved? What is the first thing she needs to do, to receive christ as her lord or just ask for forgiveness for her immediate sin.

John 3:3
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5
    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [code][/code]
What do you say about the above scriptures. When the apostles met unsaved people what was the message? To help a criminal is it just to be bail him from police cell each tell he commits crime or to teach him to stop been a criminal.

Conelius was a devout man but he still needed to be born again, why?

Acts 10:2
    A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

The man prayed always, i think he  must have been praying for forgiveness to, but Peter still had to come and preach christ to him, so he can be born again.

About ROR where did i quote it? pls show me.

aletheia:

Thank for responding. I disagree with you that the standard of righteousness has changed. It hasn't changed. No one was made righteous by works in the OT.
Was Abraham justified by works?

We were not dealing with justification but righteousness. The scriptures you quoted was on justification.

Genesis 7:1
   And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

nuella2:

@aletheia
forgiveness= remission can you explain. You mean if a love-peddler keep on asking for forgiveness after the days job. Her sins are remitted? What will you tell her to be saved? What is the first thing she needs to do, to receive christ as her lord or just ask for forgiveness for her immediate sin.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [code][/code]
What do you say about the above scriptures. When the apostles met unsaved people what was the message? To help a criminal is it just to be bail him from police cell each tell he commits crime or to teach him to stop been a criminal.

Conelius was a devout man but he still needed to be born again, why?

Acts 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

The man prayed always, i think he must have been praying for forgiveness to, but Peter still had to come and preach christ to him, so he can be born again.

About ROR where did i quote it? pls show me.

Nuella, You are just wonderful!

@Joagbaje

Very quick question and, hopefully, it is simple enough.

What is the difference between justification and righteousness? In other words how does a person become justified and how does a person become righteous?

^^^Thanks Bro. You took the words right out of my mouth.
It is clear to me that there is a fixation with the term "born again" (occurs only 4 times in the NT), which makes Joagbaje & nuella miss the point that without forgiveness/remission/atonement/justification, there is no born again. They do not understand that Abraham, Moses, Elijah et al were "born again."
I believe the reason for this confusion is a misunderstanding, or redefining if you will, of words like forgiveness, remission, atonement, justification, glorification, and sanctification. And so like a ship which has slipped it moorings, we are adrift on a sea of strange doctrines. But the bible must remain our compass.

Joagbaje:

We were not dealing with justification but righteousness. The scriptures you quoted was on justification.

Can one be justified aside from having righteousness imputed to him by the death & resurrection of Jesus? Isn't the scripture clear that both we and the OT saints are justified by faith?

But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification

If Abraham was not justified by belief in Jesus, then what did Jesus mean by this:

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.(John 8:56, ESV)

nuella2:

@aletheia
forgiveness= remission can you explain. You mean if a love-peddler keep on asking for forgiveness after the days job. Her sins are remitted? What will you tell her to be saved? What is the first thing she needs to do, to receive christ as her lord or just ask for forgiveness for her immediate sin.

Here is the answer to your question:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You try to muddy the waters of this discourse by asking about someone who is unrepentant.
What happens when your love-peddler repents and turns to Jesus? Aren't her sins forgiven/remitted/atoned for?

forgiveness=remission

Remission

Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins.
Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English

aletheia:

^^^Thanks Bro. You took the words right out of my mouth.
It is clear to me that there is a fixation with the term "born again" (occurs only 4 times in the NT), which makes Joagbaje & nuella miss the point that without forgiveness/remission/atonement/justification, there is no born again. They do not understand that Abraham, Moses, Elijah et al were "born again."

Abraham , Moses, Eljah born again? That just gives me an insight where the problem lies. That means cornelius that was a devout man was born again too! Even before peter led him to Christ. Pls don't let people hear it!. I will properly respond to this soon.

Abraham, Moses and Elijah "TURNED" to God and became different from those of their days! It is in this context that they became born again. We believe in the message, Lordship and ways of Jesus. They believed in the message (in fact they WERE the message), Lordship and ways of God.

Jesus = God! Whats the difference then if for illustration's sake, someone claims they were born again? Plus we read of the transfiguration - how Moses and Elijah joined Jesus in Glory before the Apostles! Would you say the glorified are lower than the ordinary or vice-versa? Peter and others stood ordinary before transfigured Moses yet you would have us say the transfigured were lower? So what of Jesus who was in like form with Moses? Was He also lower than the apostles (who you would call mates)?

Then please compare yourself to these Apostles before us all. But then why do I ask seeing as we know you guys have greater revelation knowledge and know that its ignorance that got Stephen killed - which would mean you consider yourself greater.

Then tell us - born again or not, what would you call Moses and Elijah? Dead-Again?

Words of Jesus in John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Words of Jesus in Matthew 8:11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Joagbaje, you were saying? Or perhaps you have better revelation than Jesus Christ Himself?

Think veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery carefully!!!

^^^ Now THAT IS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!. Would love to see what ROR says to that

Joagbaje:

Abraham , Moses, Eljah born again? That just gives me an insight where the problem lies. That means cornelius that was a devout man was born again too! Even before peter led him to Christ. Pls don't let people hear it!. I will properly respond to this soon.

Certainly they were born again, unless what you understand by the term born again is different from what I believe that phrase means.
Question: Did Moses believe in Jesus or not?
Answer:

Heb 11:24-26 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Question: Did Abraham believe in Jesus or not?
Answer:

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Question: Did David believe in Jesus or not?
Answer:

Psa 45:6-7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psa 89:3-4 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

What do you make of this scripture? Is it referring to new testament people or old testament saints:

1 Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.