Peace please, brothers!

This thread has digressed too far from what it was intended for and is becoming "word" wars!. Could we please leave the "definitions" and trying to show the WOFer side as being vacuous? Its obvious Joagbaje just chose wrong words and we are all at one time or other, guilty of the sin of pride so its not easy backing down. This moreso considering he is, as it were, "the" bastion and last line of defence of WOFers. And in sincerity, he does have a point; just is getting it across wrongly!

Might seem worth it to beat him down and teach a lesson but not exactly profitable. Plus the guy will not back down and we know it!

nuclearboy:

Peace please, brothers!

This thread has digressed too far from what it was intended for and is becoming "word" wars!. Could we please leave the "definitions" and trying to show the WOFer side as being vacuous? Its obvious Joagbaje just chose wrong words and we are all at one time or other, guilty of the sin of pride so its not easy backing down. This moreso considering he is, as it were, "the" bastion and last line of defence of WOFers. And in sincerity, he does have a point; just is getting it across wrongly!

Might seem worth it to beat him down and teach a lesson but not exactly profitable. Plus the guy will not back down and we know it!

I wil back down if I am wrong and its clearly proven by the word. There is no pride involved i didnt write the bible.

^^^ My apologies then, Sir!

Could you then go ahead and answer the questions asked just prior to my post? And when we are done "proving" we are right, hopefully, we'll remember this is not the WWF

Enigma:

OK, I will ask a few questions together to keep things brief.

1. What did Jesus' sacrifice do?

2. What is propitiation and what did it do?

3. What is remission and what did it do?

4. What is forgiveness of sin and what does/did it do?

1.Jesus's sacrifice paid price for sin of the world
2.propitiation is appeasing God's mercy
3.Remission is absolute wiping away of sin as though they never existed.
4.forgiveness is pardon for sin

Joagbaje:


1.Jesus's sacrifice paid price for sin of the world
2.propitiation is appeasing God's mercy
3.Remission is absolute wiping away of sin as though they never existed.
4.forgiveness is pardon for sin

OK

You say Jesus' sacrifice paid "price for sin of the world"?

1. Did Jesus sacrifice achieve propitiation?

2. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve remission of sin?

3. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve forgiveness for sin?

4. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve atonement?

@Joagbaje

I don't know how long it will take you to deal with the last set of questions but to save time could you also address the following:

How many times was the word rendered as "remission" (KJV) used in the New Testament and could you please point to the verse that talks of remission of sin as opposed to remission of sin[b][size=14pt]s[/size][/b]?

For Our Justification

"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Romans 4:25)

We rejoice greatly in Christ’s resurrection, knowing that He has promised that "because I live, ye shall live also" (John 14:19). But it is also very important to realise and remember that if He had not been raised from the dead, we would still be lost sinners, separated eternally from God. He was raised, Paul reminds us, "for our justification."

The immensity of the load of sin which Christ bore with Him on the cross is beyond comprehension. He had to "taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9), for He was the offering "for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). Since "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), were it not for the infinite power, as well as the infinite love, of both the Father and the Son, such an infinite weight of sin would seem impossible to overcome, so Christ would die forever, and we would be lost forever. How could we ever know that we had been forgiven and that He had paid the awful price that would suffice for our salvation? How could we ever be acquitted, and declared righteous before God?

That is exactly what the resurrection of Christ assures! "By the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Romans 5:18). His infinite righteousness has more than balanced the terrible weight of "the sin of the world," and He was able to take it away (John 1:29). Although the wages of sin must be death, "the free gift is of many offences unto justification" (Romans 5:16).

This gift of total and eternal justification is free because of His love, but even a free gift must be accepted before it can be possessed. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). HMM

Enigma:


OK

You say Jesus' sacrifice paid "price for sin of the world"?

1. Did Jesus sacrifice achieve propitiation?

2. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve remission of sin?

3. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve forgiveness for sin?

4. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve atonement?

1. Did Jesus sacrifice achieve propitiation? Yes
2. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve remission of sin? Yes, This manifest by being born again and not by asking for       forgivenes
3. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve forgiveness for sin?  It  created room for Christians to recieve forgiveness
4. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve atonement? It depends on your reference . beyond atonement , His blood didnt cover sin but washed it away. if you are refering to reconciliation , Yes, he achieved  reconciliation.

Enigma:

@Joagbaje

I don't know how long it will take you to deal with the last set of questions but to save time could you also address the following:

How many times was the word rendered as "remission" (KJV) used in the New Testament and could you please point to the verse that talks of remission of sin as opposed to remission of sin[b][size=14pt]s[/size][/b]?

"Sin" ,"Sins" were used interchangably some times. Translators were not perfect people. "Spirit" with capital "S" refers to Holyghost while spirit with small "s" refers to the spirit of man or other spirits.but small "s" has been used for Holyghost mistakingly by translator's error. So I dont want us to get caught up in issues that are not too important. Lets look at things from point of truth.

Sin (Nature)

Romans 6:22-23
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sins as (Transgressions)

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You say "sin" and "sin[b]S[/b] were used interchangeably. What of "remission of sinS" and "forgiveness of sinS" ---- were they not used interchangeably?

EDITED For example does "forgiveness" in the two passages below not in fact mean "remission"?

Ephesians 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Colossians 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins

Yes they were

Joagbaje:

Yes they were

So now you agree at least that "remission of sinS" = "forgiveness of SinS"! Hallelujah!!!!!!!


Now on to atonement and before we dissect it ask yourself this question: Why does every Christian denomination (except you and CEC and some parts of WoF) regard Jesus' sacrifice as "atonement" right from over 2000 years ago i.e. right from the very early church

@Enigma

Enigma:

So now you agree at least that "remission of sinS" = "forgiveness of SinS"! Hallelujah!!!!!!!

I didnt say remssion is forgiveness, But the word is used interchangably,. When a word has more than one meaning, It takes understanding of the context to really apply it appropriately. I gave an example of sexual sin yesterday. Let me site anothet greek word for Salvation ; "Soteria" it means safety, healing or health, protection, Deliverance etc . But that doesnt mean if someone get healing , he is saved also. they are two different experiences but the same greek word. The true meaning depends on the contex and the revelation knowledge of truth that we know. So forgiveness could be one of the meaning of the word for remission but forgiveness and remission are different. Thesame way the atonement. The primary meaning for atonement is to "cover" but the usage of atonement by king james in NT was not apppropriate. it was not used to denote what old testament use suggest. The appropriate word ought to have been reconciliation which some translations used instead of atonement.

Joagbaje!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you getting cnfused again so soon? I genuinely thought you had started to see the light yesterday. I was hoping to move on to atonement and I will do so pretty soon because I'm getting tired already on this rather simple non-controversial issue --- except for you!!! One more go on remission and forgiveness:

Here are two passages I gave you earlier: what does "forgiveness" mean in these two passages? To save time, I put it to you that it also means remission of sin[b]S[/b]!

Ephesians 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Colossians 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins

REMEMBER also that you could not find a passage that speaks of remission of sin (singular)!!!!

Na wa o.

See how some people are trying to water down the significance of the price Jesus paid by saying the unbeliever can also seek forgiveness of sins from GOD  (A.D.)

Well may be this analogy will help your understanding:

A Nigerian University requires  atleast 5  SSCE credit passes in certain subjects  for admission (no waivers). You are also expected to sit for UME. The cut off mark is subject to certain factors.

Now 2 candidates applied for admission in this University. 

The first guy has the 5 credit passes and scores 200 in UME. The 2nd guy doesnt have 5 credit passes but scores 200 in UME.

Assumming the UME cut off mark is 210, and both of them plead for  waivers, the university authority could only grant waiver for the first guy who has 5 credit passes. The other guy's plea is null and void.


Now the first guy is likened to a born again christian who has sinned while the 2nd is an unbeliever who has also ''sinned''. The first guy can be forgiven because he is born again already but the 2nd guy still needs to be born again first.

Thats the problem we are facing.Lets leave this semantics.
@Enigma, If you believe an unsaved man has access to commit sin and recieve forgiveness, why does he need to get born again? Why does he need christ?.

^^^ I see where you are taking this. As I said earlier, you did seem to have a point but are taking it way too far! To illustrate my belief, Jesus was asked to teach people to pray. The prayer He taught contains the words "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us".

Maybe you'll see now why many of us wonder at WOFers - your postulations above suggest Jesus was teaching people to lie, for if sinners cannot be forgiven, they only add more insult to injury ASKING God to forgive them. And this would directly result from being misled by none less than Jesus Himself. Please note this prayer was taught before what you call remission/atonement/forgiveness etc.

Was Jesus teaching His listeners to lie?

^^^
Implications of Joagbaje's & fyneguy's postulates:
1. No one could be saved.

Joagbaje:

Reconciliatin is not for Christians. It was for man.I guess your question ought to have been what did reconciliation do? and not what does reconciliation do?

Joagbaje:

So, if a man that is unsaved is asking God for forgiveness, It does not make a difference. He's going to hell anyway, because what makes him a sinner is not the lie he lied or the abuses he rendered, he  is still a sinnner if he had never done anything bad.

2. As Christians, we have licence to sin, ask forgiveness, sin some more, ask for forgiveness, sin. . .

fyneguy:

Now the first guy is likened to a born again christian who has sinned while the 2nd is an unbeliever who has also ''sinned''. The first guy can be forgiven because he is born again already but the 2nd guy still needs to be born again first.

Moreover, I believe Joagbaje is unsure about what the atonement of Jesus means: From the same person:

Joagbaje:

Reconciliatin is not for Christians.

Joagbaje:

Reconciliation brought us into union with God.

If reconciliation is not for Christians, then who are those brought into union with God through reconciliation?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

@Joagbaje: They can both ask for forgiveness and receive it wholesale, like school boys that tore their uniforms because they love fighting other kids in school. One is an adopted son, the other is an orphan that lives next door. The mother of the adopted one lovingly gives them new ones rather than patching the tear (blood of goats). Then she teaches them not to fight again in school, and tells of the example of her own born son who never used to fight. The problem is that the unbeliever is the schoolboy who will fight again nonetheless, and bring shame to that loving mothers name again. The believer is the one who will try to be better behaved because he will remember the example that the son of his adopted mother laid for him when he too used to be a schoolboy. I hope its clear, sir? Its the nature of the unbeliever that makes him keep sinning, and its the nature of God to keep forgiving him.

Inesqor

When an unbeliever-who has not accepted the Lordship of Jesus Christ- asks for forgiveness and he's forgiven, what does he gain? I mean what is his status after the supposed forgiveness has been granted?

@fyneguy: God forgets ALL of his past sin and remembers them no more. But like a pig, he looks for the nearest refuse heap and wallows in it. His life cannot please God that way.

InesQor:

@fyneguy: God forgets ALL of his past sin and remembers them no more. But like a pig, he looks for the nearest refuse heap and wallows in it. His life cannot please God that way.

Really? Then it's not necessary to accept Christ, since I can receive forgiveness of sin from God without believing in His son.

Then, Jesus probably was joking when he said no-one could get to the father accept by Him.

No one is answering my question. Was Jesus teaching His audience to lie or were they "born again" Christians when He taught them to ask forgiveness and even call God "Our Father"?

In addition to nuclearboy and Inesqoor's recent posts:

How did David obtain God's forgiveness after the Bathsheba affair (pun intended)?

What about Psalm 51? What does/did that do?

@fyneguy: Bros na your headache o! If you like dont accept Christ. Immediately you get up from where you prayed for forgiveness the devil will say, "Hope you enjoyed the holidays? Welcome to a new semester. This is your syllabus. Start now and submit to the class rep". God forgives your past but what will you do with the present? So when you are busy doing the devil's work how will you reach the Father? But When you make Christ your lord, the devil doesnt have a rule over you. He can only try and trick you based on your knowledge of the Word of God, like he did with Christ.

Commander nuclearboy i asked the question earlier o. The answer i got was one kain.

Enigma:

In addition to nuclearboy and Inesqoor's recent posts:
How did David obtain God's forgiveness after the Bathsheba affair (pun intended)?
What about Psalm 51? What does/did that do?

The bible was clear on the fact that there was forgiveness under the OT. But it all ended when Jesus died and ended the OT system of worship. What Jesus taught on forgiveness was still part of OT. The NT didnt come to effect until the death of Jesus.
Hebrews 9:16-17
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

For a man to function in this new package, The first step is to be born again.He recieves remission from the old nature of sin. Now he has acess into the grace. if a man has not recieved the life in Christ. he cant access the forgiveness in Christ. Different religion asks God for forgivess. are they saved?

aletheia:

^^^
Implications of Joagbaje's & fyneguy's postulates:
1. No one could be saved.

2. As Christians, we have licence to sin, ask forgiveness, sin some more, ask for forgiveness, sin. . .

If you had read my earlier post without biase, I had said that no child of God love to sin. but if they should sin, there is provision for forgiveness. I didnt write the bible.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Moreover, I believe Joagbaje is unsure about what the atonement of Jesus means:
If reconciliation is not for Christians, then who are those brought into union with God through reconciliation?

I am nott unsure, I only responded to Enigma's question asking what will reconciliation do for Christians? I said reconciliation is not for Christians but for man. He reconciled man back to God. he is not reconciling Christians. They are reconciled already.I said he should have asked rather what "did" reconciliation do and not what "will",

[quote][/quote]babalawos believes theres God , Muslims believes theres God.So if babalawo say ,God forgive me for people i killed, he is ok with God? There are withches and juju men that claim they use there powers to help people and not to do evil. They even pray to God of heaven and ask for forgiveness .By your teaching you have made the blood of Christ none effect. There is no need for salvation.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I see questions aren't getting answered or a getting answered with a kain.
Joagbaje, are you a leader in isrel, and don't know these things? Of what use is salvation, why did Jesus need to come. Those are your questions. I'll help you.
Remember we're talking of Jesus who is seperate from sinners. Since you say only christians are sinners, I'll assume Christ is seperate from christians. Or this also doesn't apply to christians.
I see you've quoted some of the books you earlier dismissed, so permit my quoting. John 1v29 the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.
Matthew 1v21 for he shall save his people from their sins.
That's what Jesus came to do, to save from sin, take away sin, not just forgive. Forgive is part but it's more than that. He came to take away. Daniel 9v24

There was a standard for sacrifices before Jesus came in the flesh. You can't just say anybody who says God forgive me. There were standards even in the OT.
Now, Jesus forgave sins of non-christians while on earth. He told Paul about forgiving sins of non-christians after dying and resurrecting(Acts 26v18). Why exactly don't you want Jesus to forgive sinners today?

Image123:

I see questions aren't getting answered or a getting answered with a kain.
Joagbaje, are you a leader in isrel, and don't know these things? Of what use is salvation, why did Jesus need to come. Those are your questions. I'll help you.
Remember we're talking of Jesus who is seperate from sinners. Since you say only christians are sinners, I'll assume Christ is seperate from christians. Or this also doesn't apply to christians.
I see you've quoted some of the books you earlier dismissed, so permit my quoting. John 1v29 the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.
Matthew 1v21 for he shall save his people from their sins.
That's what Jesus came to do, to save from sin, take away sin, not just forgive. Forgive is part but it's more than that. He came to take away. Daniel 9v24

I never said Christians are sinners. A Christian has recieved nature of righteousness. The men of the world are sinners that we need to bring to life in Christ. A Christian may make him a sinner. Paul would not call Christian sinner. Its only James that use such language.

The scriptures you quoted are still saying what Iam saying. you read my last post in a hurry. The sins of the world were only taken away when Jesus died and not at john's baptism.
Hebrews 9:16-17
   For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Joagbaje
You said the only person that can commit sin is a christian. Now its you never said christians are sinners. What is the definition of sinner/s?
The verses I quoted tell you why Jesus came, not what you're saying. I didn't mention a thing about John's baptism. I quoted that Jesus came to TAKE away sins/save from sin which is more than just forgiveness. If I get you right, you're saying Jesus came to bring forgiveness to christians.
Hebrew 9v15 says Christ's death was for redemption of sins under the OT. What are you quoting?

A man may have done a crazy thing , that doesn't mean he is a crazy man. A Sinner is a man under the dominion of sin. When a man gets born again, he ceases to be a sinner. Even if he makes a mistake, he is still a child of God. Because salvation is not by works of righteousness we have done. There is no good thing that a sinner/ umbeleiver would do that is justified by God.No work of righteousness can make him a saint. Because he was born in sin . His good work is still dirty before God. Thesame way there is no mistake that a Christian will make that will make him a sinner. Because he is born into righteousness. Sin is. Nature and not conducts , righteousness is also a nature. A good behaviour will not make the sinner a Christian and a wrong action will not make the Christian a sinner.
Jesus came to give us eternal life. As we recieve this life , the old nature of sin is taken away. Forgiveness is one of the things in the package . The more a Christian grows in the knowledge of Gods word , the less mistake he makes. God ants us to grow beyond the level of sinning and confessing and repentance everyday.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works

Joagbaje/CEC/Word of Faith disease laid bare (by a former WoFer, Rhema graduate who studied under Hagin at that!):

From http://faithpreacher..com/

The word of faith has been studied and rejected by the Church's most esteemed scholars, theologians and ministers. The word of faith is not found in the writings of the Church Fathers. It is unorthodox. The word of faith can only be crafted by taking scattered scriptures and twisting them to fit through one passage of scripture: Mark 11:23. Word of faith ministers ignore mountains of Bible passages, even entire books of the Bible, such as Job. Why? They have to. The word of faith does not fit in with the whole counsel God's Word. It is a teaching of half truths and the redefining of terms. Many of the passages critical to word of faith teaching are taken out of their context and setting. Others passages are completely buthchered to line them up with word of faith doctrines.

The innocent WoFers are a confused and ignorant lot while the leaders are despicable heretics.

This Joagbaje who is denying "atonement" will soon turn around and tell you there is "healing in the atonement" using Isaiah 53. It is what aletheia calls the Humpty Dumpty syndrome: a word is what I want it to mean; if this means I want to use the word white to describe what everyone else can see is black then white it is; I could of course be inconsistent and next minute, use the word white for another thing that everyone can indeed see is white ---- madness!

Somebody who does not even have English comprehension now becomes a master on how Greek and Hebrew words should be translated! Prideful and arrogant ignoramuses! Katallage ko, katallage ni!