What else 2 Tempt 'em

The whole bible story started with the creation of heaven and earth and we never really got to know how the angels, satan and God was created.
I thought it was Adam and Eve that sinned and not me, so why should I be judged for their sins?

There are so many mysteries in this world and all I can say is that this life sucks.

God Is God All By Him Self, He Is The Beginning And The End

And We Are All Part Of God

Interesting Question! Just one person I guess, Can Provide an answer to the Question, His number is ,

What, ?

Most narrations in the bible are actually metaphorical. I am still finding it hard to believe that God something as simple as a "fruit" is responsible for the human race's predicament. God always ilustrate things using parables and metaphors. It will be wise to think he is using the concept of a "fruit" to illustrate
something else.

cute-ass:

@ goodguy

now its very obvious you're just playing the i-know-best-game and in my opinion the game is dumb and old. So get real and behave smart instead of twisting what we've said, putting words in our mouths.

So because I posted what I gathered from your post, I am suddenly playing the "I-know-best" game, huh? Is this how you normally respond whenever your thesis is refuted? Is yes, please get real and behave smart, instead of misunderstanding me without bothering to asking for clarification. I wonder why people always automatically assume that the other party is playing smart whenever their defenseless arguments are countered. I'm sure if I had come with something like, "You're so right, cute-ass!", you'd be very excited, abi?

cute-ass:

We'er trying to tell you that God gave every man the ability to choose between wrong and right. I'm sure your mind is actually questioning God for creating women if he dosen't want men to commit fornication/adultery, right??
Sweetheart please snap out of it

Now let me tell you what you and the others may not know already. The truth is, no response here is new to me (Apart from those that say God would have eventually allowed Man to eat the fruit - I've never thought to that side before). What everyone else here has posted, I have always thought deeply about it too, and tried reasoning it out. Do you think I just woke up suddenly and came to this thread to make my posts on this issue? This issue is something I think about almost everyday, and I keep arriving at the same conclusion -- 'If God doesn't want it to happen, it will not happen - Freewill or no freewill'. There's absolutely no way one can justify the existence of freewill, without contradicting at least, one of two attributes we humans have always attached to God - Omniscience and Omnibenevolence - and that's simply what I pointed out in your post, and the others'. Nonetheless, I always try to satisfy my curiousity with Deut 29:29 and Isaiah 55:8 whenever everything gets blurrier.

gbade. x:

@goodguy:

please don't put words into my mouth. I for one never said God wasn't Omniscient, please stop putting words in my mouth!!

I should be the one begging you not to put words into my mouth. Please read my post again. I never said that you said God isn't Omniscient.

gbade. x:

What i said earlier on was that Omniscience and freewill go hand in hand, but run parallel. take for example this: perhaps in the future, it is predestined that a man, say corrupt, commits a grave sin. There's every chance he uses his freewill to change his ways. Meaning he can change that destiny. A good graphic example is Judas Iscariot. The Lord Jesus had prophesied he'd betray Him. While Judas fulfilled that prophecy, there was every possibility that he change his ways and repent but like the Scriptures put it, his mind was already corrupted, set on what he'd achieve- temporary pleasure via monetary gains.

This is very sensible, and I am trying very hard to reason with you here. But again, there is a contradiction. If anything at all, the concepts of predestination and freewill are just completely logically impossible. If a man has been predestined to do something, then there's absolutely no way his freewill can help him. As a matter of fact, he has no freewill. Being predestined, is more like being programmed to do something, and no matter how hard you try, you will end up doing that which you have been predestined to do. In the case of Judas Iscariot, he was predestined to betray the Lord, and there was no way he could have changed that. He was the scapegoat that was used for the salvation of mankind, via Jesus Christ, and of course, he's going to rot in hell for that . Telling me that he could have repented, seems to me like a not-so-rational-enough argument. Before he was predestined, God knew Judas would not be able to repent for what he did, so why was the task of betrayal put on him in the first place?

interesting discourse, nut i'd like to make a quick comment on the Judas Issue

Jesus stated that someone would betray him out of the 12, but Judas made a choice to be that one, it could've been any of the other disciples

I agree the twin issues of predestination and free-will are difficult to reconcile, it remains a very tough subject to resolve

rufflychux:

Most narrations in the bible are actually metaphorical. I am still finding it hard to believe that God something as simple as a "fruit" is responsible for the human race's predicament. God always ilustrate things using parables and metaphors. It will be wise to think he is using the concept of a "fruit" to illustrate
something else.

Nice submission here.  I've also thought the same thing, and also considering the thread someone created recently:

"Is The Biblical Cain The Son Of Lucifer Or The Son Of Adam?"

. . . I was thinking that perhaps, there could be a connection.  But then again, if we read the scriptures carefully, we'll see that the tree talked about was a real tree - yes, like the one at the back of my house.

Genesis 2:9 -  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

debosky:

Jesus stated that someone would betray him out of the 12, but Judas made a choice to be that one, it could've been any of the other disciples

Did Judas really make a choice? I have some words to deliver on this, but I guess this should be another topic on it's own.

@goodguy
About that 'predestined' thing,u know destiny can be altered so even if God has predestined someone to be great,some familiar forces can alter his/her destiny if he/she is not protected enough.
So also Adam & Eve were destined to be sinless but the serpent altered it thru temptation.
So free will still plays its role even amidst God's governance.

We were created in the image of God i.e. to have free will to know good and evil and to choose good or evil because we want to. But how will this be if He (God) controls us to do right and to love him? That means we would have no choice but to obey God. So, he put us in a position where we would be able to choose to obey or not to obey, to know what is good or bad and to choose what path we want to follow. We all know that if you force someone to love you, they don't really do.

So, God wanted us all to choose for ourselves if we would love and serve him or not by our own free will.

Po Deep:

@goodguy
About that 'predestined' thing,u know destiny can be altered so even if God has predestined someone to be great,some familiar forces can alter his/her destiny if he/she is not protected enough.
So also Adam & Eve were destined to be sinless but the serpent altered it through temptation.
So free will still plays its role even amidst God's governance.

So what you're saying now is that God's plan can be altered?

Look goodguy, i'd make this as simple and direct as possible.

The issue of Omniscience and freewill may sound contradictory but like i once said, they correlate yet run in parallel. Now the HOW is the mystery. . .

A good example i once gave of Omniscience and freewill running hand in hand is Biblical prophecies and the Choices we make.

Your stance in this thread/issue is driven by opinion and your opinion(s) is/are driven by the choice to think from one perspective. By this, freewill exist- because you exercise your freewill to think differently from another individual.

Biblical prophecies point to the Omniscience of God. Only an all-knowing God can see into the future. Prophecies concerning nations, the state of mind of the world as per God, growing cynicism for religion had been prophesied millenias ago.

Both factors operate but in a parallel manner.

Interesting. Very reasonable, and to be honest, I also share the same opinion. Also, note that I am not totally ruling out the possibility of humans having a freewill.

Now let me ask you this question - Do you believe in the statement below?

"If God wants something to happen, it will. If he doesn't want it to happen, it will not."

If yes, then you'll be contradicting yourself.

@goodguy
Yes. God's plan for one's life can be altered.
Remember the flood in Noah's days, God was please when he created man(Genesis) but displeased when man disobeyed him. So man was sposed to be cool but the eden incident introduced him to sin & so he annoyed God enuff to flood his kind wit d xception of Noah & co.

Hmmm. . .

God's plan for one's life can be altered. I would have loved to give you instances but you may not want to agree based on the fact that I will be using the Quran to support my claim.

Before you do or say anything, God is already aware. Nothing happens without God's knowledge. No evil befalls any man without His knowledge. If God does not want to punish someone, nobody can do that and if he decides to, nobody can hold him back.

Its only man and Jinn that are given freedom to do whatever they feel like. Man should also understand that he is free to choose between good and evil and will be rewarded for anyone he does, but he should also know that he cannot control the outcome of events which is known only to Allah alone.

God knows that prayer changes things and as a result tells us to always pray, because is the sword of the believer and through prayer, what you thought that is impossible will become possible.

I have thus spoken from my own Islamic perspection.

Thank you all.

@goodguy
Uh-huh.

@ goodguy:

first off, freewill is not a possibility - it is a fact. My previous rejoinder is enough to attest to that fact.

And Yes, i believe in that statement.

And No, i don't believe i have contradicted myself in any sense.

I already know what you are gonna say, but then i'd give room to follow up on your write-up.

please i also want to know where exactly is this garden of Eden located

If you are a good student of the Bible, you will know that there were two trees at the center of the Garden. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil(NOTE KNOWLEDGE) and the tree of life. Adam and Eve choose the the knowledge of good and evil and so judgment of right and wrong began. Nobody ever asked what about the tree of life at the center. do you know why nobody is concerned, because the knowledge of good and evil does not make Life that God offers to appeal to us again.
Why did God plant it there? Look at it this way, if Adam had guarded the garden and controlled assess to the garden, what do you think will be the value of this two trees. It will be the most precious things, of more value than Gold, Diamond or Petrol because who ever owns practically will control the other creatures who desire life or knowledge. We were created the richest of Gods creation but how did we handle it, we flopped and denied ourselves the privilege of supremacy. That is why God planted the tree at the center, so we can easily guard what will make us rulers on earth juts exactly the way God wanted-"so that they may have dominion over all creations, "

@lawenjins
Location of the garden of Eden?

Genesis 2:10-14
10. Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads.
11. The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12. And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there.
13. The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush.
14. The name of the third river is Hiddekel, it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

In some Bible versions, the river Hiddekel is referred to as river Tigris.
So try finding these rivers & get ur question answered.
OR better still, gba kámú.

me i,m confused about this so called tree,while some pple said it was the real tree as in TREES,some pple said that it was what was in BETWEEN EVE,S LEGS they were refering to as the tree in the garden of eden,the whole thing don tire me jare.WHERE IN THE WORLD IS THE GARDEN OF EDEN?before we talk about the tree.

The information gathered from a variety of sources who have accessed the realms beyond our three dimensional reality - what we would term the spirit world - from seers to clairvoyants, herbalists, out of body experiencers, near death experiencers, and so on is that in the spirit world, where the Source of life we refer to as God dwells, in this dimension, the concept of time and space as we know them on earth are inoperative.

The spirit world - OUR TRUE HOME - where we all go upon passing, is said to be a vast place filled with life, learning and leisure of proportions and beauty unimaginable to humans. It even has colors that are unknown on earth.

It is not 'up there' in 'heaven', but permeates even right through us here on earth and everywhere. We cannot see this realm because they vibrate at a faster rate than us on earth. But they can be accessed, and have been accessed by generations of seers, psychics, herbalists, and Near Death Experiencers.

This is where all the people, and even animals and insects, we consider 'dead' reside, mostly in conditions of unimaginable bliss and happiness.

The spirit world is also a place of the Eternal Now.

Present, past and future can be accessed from this dimension. Time as we know it is an illusion. Linear time is simply a means for us to exist effectively on the earth plane.

In reality there is only the Eternal Now.

Space is non-existent because in this realm, you think of a place and you're there - wherever. Even communication is done via telepathy, and is said to be vastly superior to speech as a form of communication, because you can also access the communicator's feelings during the exchange.

When you understand these basic facts of existence, you'll see that the idea that 'God did not know' what 'Adam and Eve' would do, even the idea of God 'testing' the couple, etc etc, is all biblical nonsense.

NO SUCH THING HAPPENED. There was no fruit in any garden with 'Adam and Eve' on it.

''Adam'' and ''Eve'' if they did exist (highly doubtful), were the first Jews, not the first human beings.

Human beings existed in Africa and elsewhere no less than 50,000 years before ''Adam'' and ''Eve'', were invented by Jewish scribes.

Yahweh, the ''God'' of the bible is NOT GOD.

The real God of the universe, the source of all that is, does not get jealous, does not get ''angry'' does not 'test' his creation, does not order his 'chosen people' to go on killing sprees and raping escapades as does the Old testament ''God''.

These are all physical human attributes that were ascribed to the Source of All Life by Jewish scribes in their bid to control and dominate their people, and wage war against their neighbours.

God does not demand ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice as does the Jewish tribal god Yahweh, and He does not 'punish' people for their sins.

Such ideas are based on ancient pagan beliefs that predate Christianity and are not founded on truth.

What happens when you pass away is that you return to the spirit world, and your actions on earth are reviewed by yourself with the assistance of your spirit guide or chi, as the Igbos call them, and  highly evolved entities on behalf of the Creator, who operate in a non-judgemental capacity characterised by love and understanding.

You as a spirit, operating with an expanded consciousness characterised by greater awareness, will upon being shown less than complimentary aspects of your past life, may decide by advice or of your own accord, to RETURN in another human body, to resolve karmic issues related to your last life.

You will be made to forget your full personality as a soul, as 'knowing the deal' will prevent you from accomplishing your set goals, which always are to do with spiritual development as a soul. It is said that every soul has a deep desire to attain spiritual development, and Earth and other planets are regarded as schools or boot-camps for soul development, as adverse conditions exist there that could not be found in the spirit world. By suffering, learning lessons, teaching lessons as humans, souls experience spiritual evolution.

The 'time' we spend on earth as humans is in reality - an illusion.

A seventy year life on earth is little more than the equivalent of 'an hour' in the spirit world, and it is said that in spiritual classroom sessions, students go for an earth life and return to the ongoing lesson when the life on earth is completed, just as if they'd visited the bathroom.

Reincarnation is a fact of life known to humans for over 100,000 years.

Until you start regarding everything you read in the bible and koran with a pinch of salt, down to the ridiculous, pilfered Jesus fairytale, you'll never arrive at the truth on this earth.

For more on the accounts of near-death experiencers, whom incidentally cut across ALL cultures, races and religions while sharing remarkably similar experiences of the hereafter, visit:

www.near-death.com

some body should try and tell me something more serious about my question now! you guys are briliant yes! but i am not yet confused, but all the same sha i believe one day the right answer will definitely come.
stay in touch with me, love you all!

ah. you are a Man of little Faith! that is what you are, why ask such question, God have his reasons for creating that tree in the garden, for He know's all that is why He is God.

my take on this is very very simple!!! its just so amazing how we try to confuse ourselves by complicating things so much!!!! LOL

Okay, in order to have absolute freedom, you have to have the OPPORTUNITY  and SPACE to do absolutely anything you want! wheather good or bad! so, in order for God to show that man has absolute freedom, the OPPORTUNITY and SPACE for sin HAD TO be there!!! how can you tell me i am free to do anythign and go anywhere and then have a boundary?!?!?!? then its NOT absolute freedom!!!!

there can ONLY be absolute freedom in the presence of absolute SIN!!!!!!!! the reason for the tree being in the garden was the only way for man to be absolutely free!!! God is so amazing in that if he says he is giving you something, he does so abolutely and wholeheartedly!!! to NOT have the tree in the garden would mean that man NEVER had the space to prove to himself and others that he is truly free!!!!! whatever God had going with adam had to be freely entered into by both parties! as in God could never force himself or his knowledge on adam. it had to be adam freely asking or entering in with God.

What was supposed to happen was that the tree was supposed to always be there but as man CHOSE to not touch it, this meant that the relationship between God and Man was totally free and entered into because they WANTED to and not because fear forced them to!!!!

this is the kind of relationship we ARE to have with God!!! not the stupid and condemned view we have living in fear 24/7!!! people repenting every minute out of fear of not going to hell! LOL

Wake up people and smell the coffee!!!!!! GOD IS LOVE AND PEACE!!!! not the image of a twisted being who wwould purposely put temptaion in our way! NOT TRUEEEEEE!!!!!!!

God, being a perfect God, who knows the end of a thing before the beginning of it intentionally planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden to glorify Himself. He is to be glorified in the fall of man.
Note that the word "God" means object of worship. He never became object of worship until HE created angels and man to worship HIM though HE had the attribute in HIM.

So also, among other attributes, HE is a Saviour but never has man fallen or lost to be saved or redeemed. On the cross He Redeemed or Saved man back to Himself. Have you ever met a genuinely saved believer? He ever llive to glorify and appreciate God, irrespective of life's tumult.

This is the mistery of the fall and rise of man. All planned by God.

Why Did God Plant That Tree In The Garden Of Eden?

Answer: So that a bitch called Eve, could convince her spouse to Feast on the fruit of the tree with her, and the Human race; be damned forever.

Whatever People believe, this is what I personally choose to believe:

I tried quetioning everyone around me about so many questions in the Bible, The tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, who did Cain marry , his sister, are we all decendants of Noa, etc. I received answers to some of them, but at the end of the day, I just came to this conclusion:

1. Faith shouldn't move in parallel to Facts, if we had facts to all we asked, then there will be nothing to have "Faith" in or "Believe" in. If I had answers to everything I asked, then there is no place of that element of things unseen, hope of things to come and things that have happend long time in the past.

2. Is there any fact that Yesua (Jesus) every existed, I will say no to that, but I am happy to belong to that collection of people who believe in what was written and put together by the scholars which we were told, were led by the spirit of God to put all the "spiritually-relevant" books together to form today's Bible.

3. Whatever anyone chooses to Believe, it's important that Facts aren't all we need to exist in this modern world , 21st Century. There are lots and loads of doctrines out there, but at the end of the day, it's down to your personal relationship with God, what did God reveal to you about these things?

Peace Out!