D-optimist:

@ OGAJIM

I will never insult or attempt to insult anyone on this forum but try my very best to enlighten people on contentious matters that I have ideas on.

I would personally want to know why you don't pay tithe but rather give offering in church. Sorry if it's in your earlier post,might be I didn't go through them one after the other. Is it that the so call tithe is too much for you to pay, maybe considering the millions you make. lol,

Also, being an elderly person doesn't mean that you know all about even this topic we are deliberating on. As a matter of fact God hides most of his 'things', I mean most of what he wants to reveal to humanity he hides it from the mighty and the scholars of the world. He uses things that seems foolish to reveal his works.

Can I be very clear on this, is it that your denomination doesn't pay tithe or you just decided not to pay? Or perhaps there's a portion of the bible that forbids such practice?

Asking this with no intention of infringement.

I don't pay tithe (as I pay taxes) because I don't find anywhere the Scriptures made it a Christian MANDATE to pay 10% of one's income. My GIVING varies, I could give more than 10% at any time if the Holy Spirit leads me to, I have no love for money because money can't define me or make me. I don't cry after money the way some folks do, "I am content with what I have and Lord's contentment still I crave, " Is that too old for you to recall?




I know that being an "elderly" doesn't make you more knowledgeable than the "kids" but the point I was trying to make with that was that most folks were still in diapers when I first stepped into a Pentecostal Church and I am a FRUITFUL person not stagnated.
I know this:

Matthew 11:25 (King James Version)

25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

If you can show me where Jesus Christ, Paul or the other Apostles paid tithe instead of FREEWILL offerings, I would reconsider my position,

I said it once, and I'll say it again: RCCG is a JOKE!  get it? a J.O.K.E. 

@ Ogajim

I'll get back to you tomorrow cos right now I'll be heading home. You sound like an angry christian. I seem to get you right now, tithing to you is a sin cos it was not orally commanded by Christ or we should pay 'tithe' but in the way or amount we like. There are lot of things that Christ did that I'm sure you've not done and also some things that you do that Jesus never did. Please don't crucify them as if you've never committed sin before, if you call it a sin.

@ afiq

I wonder what you mean when you say that RCCG is a J.O.K.E. Is it only RCCG that pays tithe or you've never heard of any church that pays tithe around you.

People should learn to stop blaspheming MOGs for your good. Remember, TOUCH NOT MY ANOINTED AND DO MY PROPHET NO HARM.

D-Optimist:

I sense you are a person who wants truth. I beg you in Christ's Name to answer these 3 questions -

[1] who is the "Lord's Anointed" and His "Prophet"?

[2] who in the Bible said "Touch not my anointed and do my prophet my harm" and when (in what context)?

[3] who was he talking to i.e. who was he telling not to touch these "anointed prophets"?

If you agree to answer, you can make the answers short or you can expound on them! Thank you, Bro

[size=4pt]ps: I wager there will be a hastening to answer these and change the topic by the dude who looks into mirrors and sees a simpleton[/size]

@D-optimist
You obviously know very little about tithes and you need to do more studies. You can start with deut 14:22-29 were tithes was properly defined and the practise explained when you are thry with that read hebrews 7:5-19 were the practise of tithing was anulled for christians. The bible also describes tithing as a weak, useless and unprofitable practise in that passage.

D-optimist:

@ Ogajim

I'll get back to you tomorrow cos right now I'll be heading home. You sound like an angry christian. I seem to get you right now, tithing to you is a sin cos it was not orally commanded by Christ or we should pay 'tithe' but in the way or amount we like. There are lot of things that Christ did that I'm sure you've not done and also some things that you do that Jesus never did. Please don't crucify them as if you've never committed sin before, if you call it a sin.

@ afiq

I wonder what you mean when you say that RCCG is a J.O.K.E. Is it only RCCG that pays tithe or you've never heard of any church that pays tithe around you.

People should learn to stop blaspheming MOGs for your good. Remember, TOUCH NOT MY ANOINTED AND DO MY PROPHET NO HARM.

This guys writes like a baby, crayon might be a good start buddy. I had no idea they trained you to be a SHRINK as well since you know me very well now after managing to read a couple of posts, wonders shall never end! I need answers to these few questions next time you come in contact with a computer:

1) Where did I call tithe/tithing a SIN?

2) What Christian you "know" have done everything Christ did?

3) Are there no "things Christ never done" that we should do as Christian?

4) What "evidence" do you have to show I "sound like an angry Christian"?

5) Is it Christian to call everyone that doesn't agree with your beliefs names?


I can't have a back and forth with someone with an IQ of a rodent so please come correct and let's have a proper discussion rather than saying "way to go" every time you see viaro or debosky write something that supports what you seem to be programmed to accept and follow.

Now you know why I mentioned in an earlier post that I've been at this for over 27 years, I wonder where you were then, come out of your hiding and let it rip.


You don't seem to know the meaning of Blaspheming or you wouldn't associate it with a mere mortal, can one blasphem against another man? chineke me!

When you give to your local church, how much of every dollar goes to help the poor or needy?

When you give to a church, in most cases what you give goes for the COMFORT of the church members - a building to keep you out of the weather, a PA system so you can hear better, seating, heating, cooling, paper supplies, salaries, building upkeep and maintenance, utilities, etc. etc. Most ALL of what you give is for MAN'S COMFORTS and for the salary of a pastor.

And what is wrong if the giving serves the needs of others apart from mine? Is giving ONLY meant to go to the poor?

Your arguments end up sounding very shallow - Paul made collections for other churches who were in one form of need or the other, early Christians sold their possessions and brought it to the disciples and this was shared amongst the brethren. These are just two examples of practices where the giving went to the church, and was used as intended by God.

In most cases, when you give to the local church, you are giving little or nothing to the poor. In MY OWN OPINION, when you give to the local church, you are giving to man, but also giving to promote God's Word.

That is an opinion - giving to the poor is NOT the only form of giving that Jesus said we should do. In any case – giving to your church (regardless of the percentage) does not tie your hands and prevent you from giving to someone down the road who needs your help. Only someone with a legalistic mindset would think that way.

Jesus did say when you give to the poor/needy you ARE giving to Him.

Is that the only way of giving to Jesus? Again, you try to fit everything into a narrow definition. In Luke, Jesus said give to everyone who asks. If there is a genuine need in the church, be it for giving to the poor or any other need, then you ARE giving to God.

Zikkyy
If you could recall, you made baseless accusations as regards my habit, fear and exit. It is to this that I said you were dishonest. I wasn't even having your modifications in mind. Like I implied, I don't exactly mind about the modification, as you've shown it to be your hobby.
I said 'see what you(plural) said AMONG OTHERS', and I went ahead with indirect quotes from 2 or 3 tithephobics on their ideas on tithe. But trust you guys with your instinct for narrow thinking, picking and choosing my posts to suit your depraved intellects.

Yes nuclearboy
Back to you. You failed to answer my questions, hope they're not tough on you? Does God hate an uncheerful giver? Is it a sin or are you going to hell if you give uncheerfully?
You should note that I was addressing all the tithephobics, so stop screaming 'I HAVE EVERYTHING against tithes'.
Now to help you and perhaps others on both sides of the divide, all children of God should know or begin to know that christian giving is based on love's grace, not on happiness/cheerfulness. All the 'if you don't feel good about it, it's wrong don't do it' and vice versa idea is not of God, but another gospel.
The idea that a 200naira offering collection in church service is just right, cheerful, acceptable, not of necessity. But a 100 000naira offering seems borne of necessity, a coerced offering, fleecing. The idea is O, the pastor has eaten this morning, the church doesn't need this 'luxury'. This should've been given to the poor. Sounds more like Judas Iscariot to me. But this is the impression rolled out by anti-tithers.
I believe that a true christian should if possible ALWAYS give. It's just like salvation, it's a command to repent, but still involves a free will. A wise person knows it's inherently compulsory then to repent. I'll say the same for giving(any form). Only a foolish person will purpose/choose not to give. We're commanded to give e.g Luke6 but it still involves our will.

Who will dwell in God's holy hill? Among other criteria, it is he that sweareth to his own hurt and changeth not. He has purposed to continue to give. It's IRRELEVANT to him whether he's cheerful or not. Even if it hurts, yet he gives. This is holiness and only true children of God can show this. It's not about singing in choir before Awolowo finished primary school or 'doing fine' for many years. Anybody can be happy/cheerful. Heard someone say "you can be happy/cheerful and not get to heaven". You can be smoking hemp, drinking, be deep in immorality and still be cheerful/happy. Giving should definitely not be founded on such triviality. BTW, how happy was Jesus Christ when He gave His life? Did God not love Him? He was sorrowful, and very heavy, even unto death, yet He gave. Did God hate this uncheerful giver? His disciples weren't cheerful about it. Even God didn't seem that cheerful about it. Yet He gave. Even Paul's service was sometimes out of necessity. 'He' wrote 2Corinthians 9. Hey, he also wrote 1Corinthians9v16. Necessity is laid upon me, woe is me if I preach not. I'm a debtor. He gave out of necessity. He wasn't using necessity as an excuse. No christian has an excuse not to give. It's devil's lie to say 'hey, if you're not cheerful don't give'. This is scriptures, it's not just about tithes. Let's outgrow narrow perceptions and know God more.

kunle
Obviously, you've not read Hebrews 7, maybe you've seen it but I think you've not read it. And stop all this Deuteronomy 14 stuff, you've being told times without number that there're other forms of tithe. Stop seeking to confuse others, it's pharisaic and last I heard, even that sect loves to tithe as they love to give alms too.

^^^

3 consective posts and not enough sense to fill one sentence. Is that the best you can do? You remind me of an elderly chap in the Islamic section. All talk, no truth or reasoning. You ask if God hates an uncheerful giver? Why are you asking me? Why not do us all a favor and visit God to ask Him? What I know is "God loves a cheerful giver" AND "as the Spirit lays it on your heart, give" not moronic questions about if God point blank comes out to say He hates uncheerful giving when the Bible says "God hates deceitful scales" which would suggest if deceitful, God is not "with" it. Why don't you let them know the truth and then accept whatever they bring "cheerfully"?

This post at least shows you know you are cajoling people to bring money as obligations when they are not.

^^^
Image123 is only interested in protecting his source of filthy lucre, he doesn't really care wether God likes it at all.

Nuclearboy
They were 4 consecutive posts not 3. I'm not suprised anyway. It's fast becoming your trademark to pick and choose from God's words how much less mine. What's number of posts got to do with the matter btw? It's obvious to any unbiased person that you barely read(maybe skimmed through) the posts but was more eager to click on reply and have 'the last say'. Hypocrites. As usual, you didn't deal with issues raised but resorted to bitterness and mudslinging. Same goes for kunle. I wonder why the heathen rage and the people unite together to imagine a vain thing.

ok, 4 consecutive posts and no sense in any. so how do I deal with "nothing"

Image123:
. . .It's IRRELEVANT to him whether he's cheerful or not. Even if it hurts, yet he gives. This is holiness and only true children of God can show this. It's not about singing in choir before Awolowo finished primary school or 'doing fine' for many years. Anybody can be happy/cheerful. Heard someone say "you can be happy/cheerful and not get to heaven". You can be smoking hemp, drinking, be deep in immorality and still be cheerful/happy. Giving should definitely not be founded on such triviality. BTW, how happy was Jesus Christ when He gave His life? Did God not love Him? He was sorrowful, and very heavy, even unto death, yet He gave. Did God hate this uncheerful giver? His disciples weren't cheerful about it. Even God didn't seem that cheerful about it. Yet He gave. Even Paul's service was sometimes out of necessity. 'He' wrote 2Corinthians 9. Hey, he also wrote 1Corinthians9v16. Necessity is laid upon me, woe is me if I preach not. I'm a debtor. He gave out of necessity. He wasn't using necessity as an excuse. No christian has an excuse not to give. It's devil's lie to say 'hey, if you're not cheerful don't give'. This is scriptures, it's not just about tithes. Let's outgrow narrow perceptions and know God more.

Some sense in what you wrote but it's being overshadowed by a lot of waffling.

2 Corinthians 9:7  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

In this context, cheerful means willing and prompt, so it's not irrelevant whether the person is cheerful or not. (BTW, I don't know how you could even write that seeing as it says "God loves a cheerful giver". So to pin your argument on just that one meaning of the word cheerful is to undermine it.

ἱλαρός
hilaros
Thayer Definition:
1) cheerful, joyous, prompt to do anything

P.S. Wasn't Jesus prompt to do the Father's will?

aletheia
You ought to understand that I'm not exactly seeking commendation, but with the hope that truth will prevail in hearts.
When YOU say that I wrote it's irrelevant whether the person is cheerful or not, it can easily erode/distort some meaning of the post. I think I said 'it is IRRELEVANT to HIM' (the giver). I didn't generalise the 'irrelevance', neither did I state that it's irrelevant before God, please note.
Also if you'll recall, I was talking on cheerful as being overbloated/unbalanced. I talked of the impression created and attacked it in that view. I emphasised on giving, founded on love's grace, not on cheerfulness. I'm not sure antitithers will go well with prompt giving, they'll likely think it has coerced, fleecing, of necessity.

Why do ye not understand my speech? I've not said there's something wrong with being cheerful. I've said it's not a foundation, a must on which giving is premised. Yes, our attitude should be cheerful. That's an exhortation, it doesn't plan in anyway to debar anyone from giving. Every man should give, let him give! Actually verse 4 of that passage connotes that not giving is a shame.
I'll allude to praise. Good christians know that they must GIVE praise. The COMMAND is to rejoice in the Lord always. Even when it hurts, we praise God. Infact, I'm told that such actions spur miracles. If we choose to rejoice, give praise whether grudgingly, in necessity, or cheerfully, in season and out of season. Why should the attitude be viewed like a sin, with contempt when it touches our pocket? The best attitude for praise is still cheerfully, but nothing debars us from giving praise when we're sad or unwilling.

Malachi 3:5 (NIV)
“So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.

Those who teach tithing are defrauding laborers of their wages and will be judged accordingly.

Those who GIVE FROM THE HEART, CHEERFULLY, will be blessed accordingly.

What is this gary? Now you're bringing in private interpretation. That same passage says bring all the tithes. You can't argue that it addresses levites or is law, then come back to quote it. Are you desperate?

Image123:

You can't argue that it addresses levites or is law, then come back to quote it. Are you desperate?

Yes, he can. It addresses anyone who perverts justice for his own purpose(s) and is in this case, particularly suited to "those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice"

What people are giving willingly will do God's Work because God takes care of His work and will lay it on the hearts He wishes to give as He wishes. If you don't believe God is capable of raising the finances for His work, you're a joker. Go and find honest work to do rather than scamming people out by making it obligatory to pay a tax that is not Godly. Giving is GOOD. Taxing people is NOT GOOD.

Since the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities, NOT TO THE TEMPLE, and the Levites then gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests, it is that tenth of the tithe that went to the storehouse, NOT the whole tithe from the Israelite farmers.

The PRIESTS robbed God of the offerings.  See Malachi 1.

The PRIESTS robbed God of the tithe.  See Nehemiah 13.

Actually, the whole book of Malachi is addressed to the priests. 

Starting in chapter 1, by the time you get to verse 6 you see it is THE PRIESTS who are being addressed.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and
the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3
continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to
judgment…, "  In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8.

THE PRIESTS were robbing God, AND NOW they rob the children of God.  HOW did they rob God of the tithe?  No one actually took their tithe to God as God directed them to take His tithe to the Levites.  To withhold the tithe from the Levites, or to steal the tithe from the Levites was considered robbing God.  Since God NEVER changed His command to take His tithe to the Levites, anyone who takes His tithe to other than a Levite is robbing God.

To say God wants you to take His tithe to the church is a flat out LIE and cannot be substantiated by God's Word.  STOP TELLING LIES!  Those who teach lies are liars.

garyarnold:


Actually, the whole book of Malachi is addressed to the priests. 

Starting in chapter 1, by the time you get to verse 6 you see it is THE PRIESTS who are being addressed.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and the priests.

Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests.

Chapter 3 continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to judgment…, "

In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God.

It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God.

So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests.

The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8.

THE PRIESTS were robbing God, AND NOW they rob the children of God. 

HOW did they rob God of the tithe? No one actually took their tithe to God as God directed them to take His tithe to the Levites. 

To withhold the tithe from the Levites, or to steal the tithe from the Levites was considered robbing God. 

Since God NEVER changed His command to take His tithe to the Levites, anyone who takes His tithe to other than a Levite is robbing God.

To say God wants you to take His tithe to the church is a flat out LIE and cannot be substantiated by God's Word. 

STOP TELLING LIES!  Those who teach lies are liars.

@garyarnold

On the issue discussed I sit somewhere in the middle,

not to be miscontrued with sitting on the fence.

You might say I'm keeping my cards shielded & guarded closely to my chest . . .

Garyarnold, with your refernces to priests and Levites,

I am waiting for the protagonist(s) or antagonist(s); whichever is applicable or concerned

to soon lumber you with 1 Peter 2:9 (i.e. saints are a "royal priesthood"

secondly Luke 3:23-38 (i.e. Geneology of Jesus Christ as a Levite)

and thirdly Hebrews 5:1-10 (i.e. Christ's qualifications as High Priest)

@36991
Jesus christ was not a levite, he was from the tribe of Judah and was not eligible to collect tithes. Heb 7:11-13

KunleOshob:


@36991

Jesus christ was not a levite, he was from the tribe of Judah and was not eligible to collect tithes. Heb 7:11-13

@KunleOshob

Are you saying that confidentally or that's what you think,

you want to watch that knee-jerk reaction

Study His geneology - He was; proxy his mother, a descendant of Aaron

Tell you what, by the time you read up on the "Levirate Law"

the penny should drop with an Ah-ha! exclamation

Hebrews 7:5,12,18 make it perfectly clear that the Levitical priesthood, which included the Lord's Tithe, ended at Calvary. In fact, verse 18 tells us that Numbers 18, regarding the priesthood and ALL its laws, including tithing, was DISANNULLED.

Since WE are now the royal priesthood, and the priests DID NOT TITHE, how are we supposed to tithe? THE PRIESTS DID NOT TITHE.

garyarnold:


Hebrews 7:5,12,18 make it perfectly clear that the Levitical priesthood, which included the Lord's Tithe, ended at Calvary. 

In fact, verse 18 tells us that Numbers 18, regarding the priesthood and ALL its laws, including tithing, was DISANNULLED.

Since WE are now the royal priesthood, and the priests DID NOT TITHE, how are we supposed to tithe? 

THE PRIESTS DID NOT TITHE.

@garyarnold

Garyarnold pull the other leg . . .

You know and I know that the priests tithed from the tithes

How you are supposed to tithe, am leaving that to you to figure out

You've confirmed you're now a royal priest

Also that priests (i.e. born again believers) are meant to be close to God

Saints and you inclusive have come off age now . . .

Trust me, you'll decipher the whole picture and suss out how

e36991 said, "You know and I know that the priests tithed from the tithes"

@e36991, it just might help if you opened your Bible and read the scriptures.

HINT:  Read Numbers 18:23.

The farmers took the tithe to The Levites.
The Levites gave a tenth of the tenth to the priests.
The priests DID NOT TITHE.  They used A PORTION of the tenth of the tithe for a heave offering.

THE PRIEST DID NOT TITHE.  It was the Levites who tithed from the tithe TO THE PRIESTS.

You also need to look at:
Hebrews 7:14 (KJV)
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

I'm literally laughing and rolling on my bed. How can you(garyarnold) argue that Malachi is written to priests abi na levites when we quote it, then throw it back and address it against people who preach tithes. I guess viaro's absence brought you back, hahaha. Was a terror to your soul right? pe o!
And none of the tithephobics can even see through. Bunch of pharisaic hypocrites.

Image123 - you really show a lack of knowledge on this topic.

garyarnold:


You also need to look at:

Hebrews 7:14 (KJV)

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

[flash=200,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k&hl=en_GB&fs=1&[/flash]

@garyarnold

Aw come off it, Whatcoo talkin bout, eh?

Sure God gave a tithe to the Levites for their work in the tabernacle and as an inheritance (Numbers 18:21, 24).

From the tithes they received, they were also to pay tithes (verse 26).

But noteworthy among the Levites God selected Aaron and his family to serve as priests (Exodus 4:14; Numbers 3:10)

Now because Aaron and his family were also Levites, they too would have been expected to tithe. Aint that right?

Read up on the Levirate Law to understand Jesus' geneology as a Levite