What's all this emotion and sympathy that you're begging for, and then subtly threatening that viaro will regret. Tithe is most damning? Are you confused or just plain mischievous. Go and sit down and consider weightier matters.
So people are perishing and suffering because they've given a '10%'. They went broke on the 90 remaining se? You're pointless and clueless, and viaro isn't going to fall for your propping flattery. Dishonest tithephobic.

^^^
@nuclear boy
Brilliant summation, God bless you for this. What you have written above is the koko of the matter and the resultant societal effect. This evil greed motivated false tithe doctrine is making christian abandon their primary and most important christian duty of loving our neighbours through helping them with our resources. Imagine if just half of the money being scammed off people as tithes was used to help the down trodden in society, Nigeria would be a much much safer place for us to live in.

From the Prince of Preachers (C H Spurgeon)   http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0145.htm

{In fact, I should be starting a separate thread later on "Love Thy Neighbour" using this sermon as its base)

Love your neighbour, in the next place, because that will be the way to do good in the world. You are philanthropists, some of you subscribe to missionary societies, you subscribe to the society for orphans, and other charitable objects. I am persuaded that these institutions, though they be excellent and good things, are in some respects a loss, for now a man gives to a society one-tenth of what he would have given himself; and where an orphan would have been kept by a single family, ten families join together to keep that orphan, and so there is about one-tenth of the charity. I think the man who has the time is bound to give nothing at all to societies, but to give all away himself. Be your own society. If there be a society for the sick, then if you have enough money, be your own sick society. If you have the time go and visit the sick yourself, you will know money is well spent then, and you will spare the expense of a secretary. There is a society for finding soup for the poor. Make your own soup. Give it yourself; and if every one who gives his half-a-crown to the society would just spend half-a-sovereign to give the soup away himself, there would be more done. Societies are good; God forbid that I should speak against them; do all you can for them: but still I am afraid that they sometimes thwart individual effort, and I know they rob us of a part of the pleasure which we should have in our own benefactions—the pleasure of seeing the gleaming eye, and of hearing the grateful word when we have been our own almoners.

@Pastor debosky,

Don’t tell me I have to wait till Sunday morning to get that sermon   I believe you have week day services on-going  

debosky:

If I recommend you do what I do, with good faith, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
If it is not worth recommending to anyone, then it is WRONG in itself - and we both know it isn't.

debosky:

you cannot remove the validity of giving 10% using the OT as a guide, and recommending same to others.

By recommending to others, I do not prevent them from deciding to do as they wish; the decision on what to do is still down to the individual.

debosky:

2. Recommending to another Christian does not take away anyone's freedom. I do not take your freedom away by saying I follow a practice and it can be a guide for you as well if you CHOOSE to do so.

debosky:

In any case, I fully agree that tithing should be de-emphasised, and more time spent teaching giving without undue 'setting apart' of tithes. While doing that, there is no need to 'eliminate' as it were any reference to tithing.

What is the basis for recommending 10%, why not 5% or 15% or 50%, why 10%? You should know a good number of people don’t sit in church (with the pastor preaching) for the fun of it. They sit and listen because of the trust and confidence they have in the pastor. As a pastor, you must choose your words with great care because of the impact on the congregation. Your recommendation is likely to cause more damage than good in the long run. If Zikkyy gives 50% of his income to charity, why recommend that same amount to my brother? If Zikkyy gives 0% of income, why recommend same? i.e. I give 0%, I think you all should do same. My sincerity does not matter here as I could be wrong. There is also the risk of turning him into a robot debosky. Preaching giving on percentages that have no basis is wrong. I will not be teaching true Christian giving when I set percentages. Let the heart do the motivation, let (unconditional) love lead him.

If Paul had instructed the Corinthians to set aside 30% of their income as collections for the church at Jerusalem, maybe you will be recommending 30% today as the base amount for charitable contribution to support other brothers & sisters in need. I am happy he didn’t set a percentage amount. I also wonder why you don’t recommend that we sell our properties and bring to a pool for redistribution just like the early believers. There is no need to eliminate reference to tithing. There is a motivation for these actions, and that is what we should reflect on debosky.

I really don't know what is wrong with fellows in this forum, for some time now I've been silently going through the posts on this forum and I've observed that there are some people on this forum who are bent on saying just anything they like without thinking through. I wonder what was  the poster's intention or what he wanted to get from his post.

For all I know, everything done in this life was initiated by some one, we are only mimicing the initiator of what ever we are doing today. I wonder if the poster doesn't celebrate or observe xmas and easter. These events were not recorded in the bible to be celebrated but we do observe them. I want to believe that if this new method adopted by RCCG for getting their tithes was initiated by a 'WHITE MAN' we all would have adopted it without any noise.

Praying for those paying tithe is just a matter of confirming or reminding God of his promises for tithe paying. It's just like praying for a sick person to get heal, not that God doesn't know that he/she is sick but as he said that we should ask and it shall be given, not that he doesn't know our needs. So praying specially for obedient children of God shouldn't be something provoking so far it has been commanded.

For those who disagree on tithe paying, I'm not sure they are Christians cos if they were to be Christians, not just by name but those that will want to know the truth and will be compelled to open the bible to get to know what God says about an issue raised in either church or by friends, they would have been able to get understanding of Malachi 3:8-12 which says,

"3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

3:9
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

3:11
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

3:12
And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts."

As a matter of fact, paying tithe is not optional but a commandment, cos if it wasn't he wouldn't have liken it to robbery. On the other hand, paying your tithe is like having advantage over someone that doesn't cos like it is written that he will open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. So it's all left for you.

Also, if he was not talking about 10% of whatever you earn here including cash and yield, what else was he referring to here? Help me out.

I beseech you brethren to stop arguing on things that are not relevant but as much as you can try and think twice before commenting on public forum like Nairaland. If you don't seem to understand what is done in a particular place most especially in the Church of God, please find a way and ask your Pastor if you have one or a responsible Elderly person or pray to God to give your understanding not your imagination, I Tell you he will be ready to help you out if you ask in earnest.

I beg to rest my case here, THANK YOU

D-optimist:

I really don't know what is wrong with fellows in this forum, for some time now I've been silently going through the posts on this forum and I've observed that there are some people on this forum who are bent on saying just anything they like without thinking through. I wonder what was the poster's intention or what he wanted to get from his post.

For all I know, everything done in this life was initiated by some one, we are only mimicing the initiator of what ever we are doing today. I wonder if the poster doesn't celebrate or observe xmas and easter. These events were not recorded in the bible to be celebrated but we do observe them. I want to believe that if this new method adopted by RCCG for getting their tithes was initiated by a 'WHITE MAN' we all would have adopted it without any noise.

Praying for those paying tithe is just a matter of confirming or reminding God of his promises for tithe paying. It's just like praying for a sick person to get heal, not that God doesn't know that he/she is sick but as he said that we should ask and it shall be given, not that he doesn't know our needs. So praying specially for obedient children of God shouldn't be something provoking so far it has been commanded.

For those who disagree on tithe paying, I'm not sure they are Christians cos if they were to be Christians, not just by name but those that will want to know the truth and will be compelled to open the bible to get to know what God says about an issue raised in either church or by friends, they would have been able to get understanding of Malachi 3:8-12 which says,

"3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

3:9
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

3:11
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

3:12
And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts."

As a matter of fact, paying tithe is not optional but a commandment, cos if it wasn't he wouldn't have liken it to robbery. On the other hand, paying your tithe is like having advantage over someone that doesn't cos like it is written that he will open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. So it's all left for you.

Also, if he was not talking about 10% of whatever you earn here including cash and yield, what else was he referring to here? Help me out.

I beseech you brethren to stop arguing on things that are not relevant but as much as you can try and think twice before commenting on public forum like Nairaland. If you don't seem to understand what is done in a particular place most especially in the Church of God, please find a way and ask your Pastor if you have one or a responsible Elderly person or pray to God to give your understanding not your imagination, I Tell you he will be ready to help you out if you ask in earnest.

I beg to rest my case here, THANK YOU

^^^ See above, VIARO, for a lesson on LAWS FOR CHRISTIANS.

"obedience" to "Commandments", mind you! And of course, an "advantage". Plus of course, the "way to get called BLESSED (most worthy intentions for a believer today)".

Of course, the final recourse is to the "almighty pastors/elders". Who of course, passed on the holy doctrines of xmas and easter!  As opposed to us, armed robbers who hate God and are making Him go hungry (aww, see how lean God has become due to nuclearboy starving Him  ).

Viaro, could I have helped the case I outlined above more? 

viaro,

You don't listen, and you misquote.  I NEVER said THE definition of tithe is tax.  I said ONE definition is tax.

I have given here the message God has given me to preach.  I am only the messenger.  God has told me those who reject the message are not rejecting me, they are rejecting Him.  God has told me it is His fight, not mine.  But I have told God that His Son died for me on the cross.  The least I can do is fight for Him.  But I know by fighting, sometimes I can get in God's way.

I did not ask God if I could be a messenger.  God told me, through The Holy Spirit, what He wanted me to "TELL THE PEOPLE."  I am doing as God has commanded.

Once I have given the message God has ordained me to give, I have done my part.  I know that God has used me to plant a seed on this blog and that my comments that came from His Spirit has served my purpose here.  Therefore, I am now backing out of this blog for a time.

I love every single one of you, regardless of your views.  You are all by brothers and sisters.  MAY GOD BLESS EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU.

Gary Arnold
Clovis, California USA
www.BibleEd.org

nuclearboy:

"obedience" to "Commandments", mind you! And of course, an "advantage". Plus of course, the "way to get called BLESSED (most worthy intentions for a believer today)".

Of course, the final recourse is to the "almighty pastors/elders". Who of course, passed on the holy doctrines of xmas and easter!  As opposed to us, armed robbers who hate God and are making Him go hungry (aww, see how lean God has become due to nuclearboy starving Him  ).

Nuclearboy, you know why most tithing boys and girls think this way na. It’s sad but it’s a source of hope for most people, maybe you shouldn’t deprive them of that. There not much you can do about it anyway. You can educate, but you can’t force people to decide what to believe. It’s their call. If you really want to make that change, take it out on the people that preach it.

^ I have no problem with them living on "hope". It faileth NOT.

The post you quoted was just to alert Viaro to the reality of what these "children of God" are being MADE to believe. [size=4pt]now I've done it again and Viaro is on his way back to inform me its not force but a fair teaching. Image must be dancing at my mistake[/size]

D-optimist:

I really don't know what is wrong with fellows in this forum, for some time now I've been silently going through the posts on this forum and I've observed that there are some people on this forum who are bent on saying just anything they like without thinking through. I wonder what was  the poster's intention or what he wanted to get from his post.

For all I know, everything done in this life was initiated by some one, we are only mimicing the initiator of what ever we are doing today. I wonder if the poster doesn't celebrate or observe xmas and easter. These events were not recorded in the bible to be celebrated but we do observe them. I want to believe that if this new method adopted by RCCG for getting their tithes was initiated by a 'WHITE MAN' we all would have adopted it without any noise.

Praying for those paying tithe is just a matter of confirming or reminding God of his promises for tithe paying. It's just like praying for a sick person to get heal, not that God doesn't know that he/she is sick but as he said that we should ask and it shall be given, not that he doesn't know our needs. So praying specially for obedient children of God shouldn't be something provoking so far it has been commanded.

For those who disagree on tithe paying, I'm not sure they are Christians cos if they were to be Christians, not just by name but those that will want to know the truth and will be compelled to open the bible to get to know what God says about an issue raised in either church or by friends, they would have been able to get understanding of Malachi 3:8-12 which says,

"3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

3:9
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

3:11
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

3:12
And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts."

As a matter of fact, paying tithe is not optional but a commandment, cos if it wasn't he wouldn't have liken it to robbery. On the other hand, paying your tithe is like having advantage over someone that doesn't cos like it is written that he will open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. So it's all left for you.

Also, if he was not talking about 10% of whatever you earn here including cash and yield, what else was he referring to here? Help me out.

I beseech you brethren to stop arguing on things that are not relevant but as much as you can try and think twice before commenting on public forum like Nairaland. If you don't seem to understand what is done in a particular place most especially in the Church of God, please find a way and ask your Pastor if you have one or a responsible Elderly person or pray to God to give your understanding not your imagination, I Tell you he will be ready to help you out if you ask in earnest.

I beg to rest my case here, THANK YOU

Another probable example of an old NLer going undercover to present "a different personality" who happens to have a lot of background information on NL.

Ekabo oga pastor!

FYI: I don't celebrate Xmas or Easter, never hung an Xmas tree in my house and finds no use for any of them, The old time RELIGION is good enough for me. Everything has been commercialized and folks who are supposedly Christians are falling for them, I am fine thank you.


I am "optimistic" that the truth will be preached one day by a Pastor with enough Chutzpa to preach the truth undiluted. Christians are supposed to give ( money, time, love, care, etc) the "wofers" and the "charismatic" fold tend to focus more on only the money part and the stuff about "willing God through faith".

Follow your heart but be sure you are not just following an "MOG"

What is this nonsense? Follow your heart? Is that one from your Bible or where? The heart of man is desperately wicked, I'll rather take a chance with following God's words and not men's philosophical and philanthropic ideas and articles.

And see garyarnold soliloquyizing, what's with the scare tactic 'anybody that doesn't agree with you is not agreeing with God'. God sent you to fight on tithes, what a funny god that must be. This is the kind of stuff people do that make disbelievers to call christians deluded and legalistic. You do need to take a seat gary. You need it, and your pals need it as well.

nuclearboy:

@Viaro:

I have no doubt that at the forthcoming Olympics, you Viaro, can win all three Gold, Silver and Bronze medals at the "mental gymnastics" events for your intellect. Still, this is a puzzle to me remembering what I have seen you write here before on other topics.

You argue that cheating and doctrinal errors are wrong in christianity. But you argue for the most damning issue in christianity - the thing that seeks to commercialise Christs' teachings and make God out to be a land-lord who allows you continued tenancy BECAUSE you paid your rent and bought Him bushmeat your last visit to the village. You send "grace" out the window when you tell us a doctrine from the pits of hell is acceptable because you want no laws for Christians. Would you then support we kill since there are no binding laws on Christians? Why do I even ask seeing as the effect of our tithers has included the starvation to death of many just so they can say from the pulpit "God is good. Can't you see it? He has provided us air-conditioning in this monument to idiocy"! e.g. Adefarasin wants a 410 million Naira air-conditioning system.

Here on NL, you see people saying "few (if any) of Oyedepo's church members can afford to send their children to the school he built with their money". You see people saying "its private jet galore" whist members children are sent home from cheap school. I grew up in Lagos, friend. Have you seen the children coming out of the slums today? They will kill you for a piece of bread. They will break your car window to insist you give them money once its dark. We live in fear here once you have a good car whist you're enjoying your scholarship in the west telling us those innocent children who had their lives stripped from them and who were turned into animals are not partly victims of these rogues on the pulpits who have turned God's plan for societal relief into a self enrichment venture. Is the effect not worth considering especially when it passes (and ballons) from generation to generation. Or is it government alone that empowers society?

Those children had parents who believed God would bless them if they gave the "man of God". Seeing as the children only got hunger in return, the word "God" is a travesty to them and they prefer a knife or a gun. Many here have faced them and heard firsthand "ehn, you're praying to God? oya O, pastor, pray for us too but know something - that your God is greedy and I'll just give him some cash and he will forgive. And if he shows here as me dey vex, I go shoot am, e go cry". Funny? well, maybe to you safe in the west and telling us we don't know what we see.

But if the preaching of "tithes" AS IT IS FOUND here is Godly, God is not worth it! But I know God is worth it seeing as He warned us of them - "For they mouth empty boastful words (I AM GOD/CHRIST etc), and by appealing to the lustful desires (TO PROSPER) of sinful human nature, they entice people (NEW CHRISTIANS) who are just escaping from those who live in error (JUST LEFT THE UNREGENERATED LIFE). They promise them freedom (HEALTH, WEALTH, DOMINION), while they themselves are slaves of depravity (MONEY, MONEY AND MORE MONEY)"

This then, is what you don't seem to see you are supporting with your words.

^^^ This is a fantastic encapsulation of why the agitation to challenge the teaching on "tithing". The fact of the matter is that "tithe" teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is an extremely wicked anti-Christian doctrine. And let us not be misled that this is only so in Nigeria; let us not forget or overlook the fact that a lot of our Nigerian "pastors" and "GOs" are taking their false doctrine from American "prosperity"/Word of Faith preachers. Thus, in America particularly the wicked tithing doctrine is prevalent in a particular section of Christianity i.e. Pentecostal/Charismatic/Word of Faith camps --- some of which I even hesitate to call Christianity! You know what is worse; these wicked doctrines are often also prevalent among the poor and the hopeful ---- thus the wickedness is ravaging the American black community in particular. The mainstream Christians are not so badly affected ---- but we cannot afford to say "it is not my problem." The same thing obtains here in the UK: the mainstream churches - Catholic, Anglican, Baptist etc - do not preach the wickedness of "tithing" thus the white majority population is not significantly affected and thus the majority may not see it as a problem. BUT go to the black churches and the likes of Ashimolowo, the convicted Goodman etc etc have been getting fat on the back of these wickedness on the poor and the hopeful/aspirational and often misinformed or poor-thinking Nigerian/African/Caribbean congregations.

Look at someone saying you should not follow your heart in your giving! That is an example of what I mean by the teaching of "tithing" being anti-Christian considering that the clear Christian teaching is in fact that you should follow your heart!

2 cor 9: 7 (NIV)

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Imagine, "follow your heart" as in what the Holy spirit reveals to you, "When I use a word or phrase, it means what I choose it to mean neither more nor less" I am sure you've heard that before but in case you haven't, there you have it.

Your heart can be interpreted as your conscience, I don't know what part of Nigeria you come from but it is so in my area.

I am still waiting for you to show where Jesus, Paul and the Apostles paid tithes, I don't care about money as much as some folks do and it has no bearing on my happiness either, maybe you should learn to love money less and focus more on love for your neighbor, widow, orphan, etc because those are weightier SEEDS to sow than mere money. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven, "

I am CONTENT with my position and my service to God, I don't need mortal validation to make me feel good about myself, I still love you with the love of God and pray that one day, you will grow enough balls to see the light.

Shalom.

I am taking the liberty to copy and paste here the post below made by origen2k on another thread (with small touches); I wonder if the latter part is taken by the poster from elsewhere; nevertheless, I really like the point it makes.

origen2k:

I want to opinethat tithing is not for the new creation believer.It was for the old covenant of laws imposed on the Jews ONLY.Jesus however urges us to give alms, This is stronger in commitment than tithes in that you have to go to an extent of selling what you have often to give to the poor, Read below.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Even as we entered this very day, God the Father ensured that all was certain that the sun was fully poised, ready to shine across the firmament upon all men .However, the fortunes defined by the world order of systems partially favors the one and inexplicably leaves out the another…
I want to say that this very morning already met some people mourning and sorrowing amidst myriad of fears piled up at the doorsteps of their hearts, thinking “What shall I Eat? What shall I drink and what shall I wear?”

That does not sound like you of course because…it’s never you.

As well, there are little children without parents also, probably unlike you and I and these little ones have no clue about how they can steer the course of their entire lives or even to begin with, have something to feed on this day.
In a world driven by hatred, wickedness and greed these abandoned ones have no fighting chance against myriads of odds competing for their daily sustenance.

However, the same morning that met some individuals in perpetual lack and anguish also met some individuals cornered with problems of how to go about dispensing and spending of their wealths.

What shall we then say to these things? It is the partiality of the times--The favoritism that ensures that a succinct few garner and possess the most wealth and resources of the world whilst a very many others scarcely subsist and thereby barely live from hand to mouth.
However thanks be to the almighty that the story is not ended there-- there are men of good hearts and intents. These, like the eyes of the almighty, observed all these and therefore strongly believe that there is a radical solution—a reviewing of this abysmal trend.
And like the heart of the creator, these believe that this societal bedeviling should be ameliorated by one means or the other.
And who are these set of exemplary crop of individuals?

They are no other but you and me.

And the most simple and potent means has been described by the Holy Scriptures: Giving: A very powerful option.

That popular song says give and it shall be given to unto you good measure, press down and shakingen together and running over --adapted from the Holy Scriptures. This giving pays eternal dividend in that it ensures something: A promise of a premium treasure account in the heavens as succinctly painted by the biblical passage:

Luk 12:33 “Sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor. Make yourselves wallets that don't wear out-a dependable treasure in heaven, where no thief can get close and no moth can destroy anything.

And the word and promises of God are without fail, for:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
For indeed no man has been able to sojourn to the heavenlies but there is one bridge that takes you closer to that much desired cherished location: Giving to the poor. Giving to the poor inis a very powerful weapon against the  militating of the devilish gates of hell against your ascendancy to a stately place after your transition from this carnal dwelling place.

In that light i would want to advocate to us that besides helping the poor out of sympathy, we should also be doers of the word and not hearers only.

Help the needy and deprived and the Almighty God shall surely help you:

Pro 19:17  He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

Enigma,

You are correct about the "market" for these unholy "doctrines of men" The "mainstream" Churches don't get too worked up about your money, they believe you should give what's in your heart to give not one they get from you through a combination of comedy acts, scary tactics (You're robbing God by not paying tithes), good marketing strategy, seed sowing, "products (oil, handkerchief) marketing,  etc.

I know someone who went to Goodman's Church and left before he went to jail, seen a friend who worshiped at different RCCG branches in the US return home to the Anglican Church. It means folks are learning to say the least.

To tell someone how and what to give is not Christian because:

2 Corinthians 9:7 (King James Version)

7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Enigma:

Look at someone saying you should not follow your heart in your giving!

Maybe the man does not have a heart.

^^^ I thought he was missing just the Brain portion of humans. And now you say he got no heart too

Na wa O

@nuclearboy,

I'm sorry that what you may read in this reply to yours would come down very strong. I don't mean to, but it is inevitable because there are certain things which cannot be excused in your assumptions about my position on this subject.

nuclearboy:

I'd decided not to speak concerning this issue again on this thread. I'd also come to believe the only pro-tither on earth with a brain was Viaro. Sad to see Debosky has joined him. One thing I notice though - Gary made a point that you both have ignored in the attempts to turn this whole thing upside down.

Gary said . . .

I don't know how you could be so assuming, nuclearboy. The quote from Gary that you claimed I ignored was already addressed in my reply - see post #324. How then could it be said that I "ignored" whatever Gary had said in the post you quoted from him?!?

nuclearboy:

IF you, Viaro, know that IT IS AS YOU ARE LED IN YOUR HEART, why insist it is the Word "tithe" that must be used? Why THAT Word? Why not "Gifts". Why not "Support".

This is absolutely hypocritical, sorry to say. The question of "insisting" is mine personally - I did not insist that it should be called 'tithe' for any other Christian who wants to play games with semantics. I set aside a tithe - call it "a tenth part" or "one tenth" or "1 out of 10" - that is what I do on my own personal choice. I will not wait for any anti-tither to come slave himself insisting that I call it "support" or "gift", as if my tithe is NOT to support the ministry in Church, or as if by not calling it a "gift" it was meant to be a merchandise!

My position on this subject has been made clear so many times on this thread and others besides. If I choose to tithe, it is what I have determined to do from my own heart. If another Christian decides that he/she prefers to NOT tithe, I don't have any quarrels with him/her. The one thing I have always maintained is that NEITHER anti-tithing nor pro-tithing arguments should become LAW for the Body of Christ. Anti-tithers who are at pains to say we should change the word 'tithe' to something else are just being mischievous - and yours. . "support", "gift"?? Please, let's leave these childish excuses far behind us.

Do what you decide to do - I will have no problem with you any day if whatever you decide is rather to NOT tithe. I look beyond these polarising arguments to the actual giving; and if any Christian wants to call theirs anything else even though the amount is about 10% of their income, then let them call it whatever else they choose to, and stop worrying over what viaro has decided to do. You stick your hand in your own pocket and do as you would with what is thine - and let me decide to do what I would with what is mine. Above that, neither arguments over the fence prevails anything over love in our faith, no?

nuclearboy:

Why the legalistic term that is being used to scare people.

Tithe is NOT a legalistic term - let anyone who wants to scatter their intestine do so anytime they hear the word 'tithe'. It is not the word in itself that is legalistic; rather it is the way people misuse that word to dramatic effects to argue non-essentials. This legalism of anti-tithing arguments is what I have taken time to point out in posts #291 and #292 - I didn't see you say anything about Gary "ignoring" those posts altogether before complaining that I ignored what he pointed out! What kind of double standards is this?

Have you ever sat down to ask yourself why anti-tithers on the most part are so legalistic in their arguments? When people talk about "tithes", who in the Church today is going to Israel to fetch 10% of literal agricultural produce to give in church? So, if one wants to give 10% which is a "tithe" of their income, what is the quarrel in that? Anti-tithers often argue as if NOTHING in the history of the world has ever been tithed except Israel's agricultural produce! This narrow carping is what is most disdainful in legalistic arguments - and it is the argument that is legalsitic, not the word 'tithe' in itself. So, if anyone wants to faint and be rushed to the hospital for just hearing that word, they are also free to faint and let's stop worrying over childish talk.

nuclearboy:

Do you remember what Jesus said was His duty? " To set the Captives free?" amongst others. Do you read what Joagbaje's milk teeth people say here that is purely opinionated and not backed by any scriptural sense? For these, it is "how can you say pastor is wrong"? Is that true, Viaro? Is pastor perfect? Is pastor saying "it is voluntary"? Is that why these "babies" come here and curse because pastor is being factual?

The Biblical principles for people tithing today does not stand or fall on what Joagbaje or any other person says on the subject. NOBODY (including you and me) is perfect - NONE! Just because some people tend to have taught wrongly does not therefore mean anyone who says anything about tithe must by default be wrong! That is a fallacy that would not even stand at all, and it is just about the same thing as using one person to foist guilt by association.

nuclearboy:

We all say GIVE. Then we again say GIVE. But you say aniti-tithers are stingy BECAUSE we say the word tithe is being used to convince people that they OWE IT AS AN OBLIGATION.

Please don't misrepresent what viaro stands for. I am opposed to dubious assertions and fallacies that anti-tithers employ to foist their legalistic arguments upon the Body of Christ in order to see Christians stop tithing altogether. That is the point.

You say 'GIVE'? Do tithers not "give"? What is so special about this word "give" that it has become the singular anthem of anti-tithing brethren. Please differentiate this for me - "Abraham GAVE tithes" - what is the difference between "GAVE" and "tithes"?? What did he GIVE?!? You say 'GIVE' - fine. . . that is what many tithers do: they GIVE, and what they give is a "tithe". What is the biggy in that?

Google is your friend - search and see that it is anti-tithers who argue that it is wrong for Christians to tithe - these same folks will not argue that it is okay for Christians to give 10% of their income. Everywhere you turn, their message is clear: tithing is wrong - in the other cases, they wil tell you that a Christian who is tithing (10% of their income) has fallen from grace! If you point out that Christians who tithe are GIVING a portion of their income, our anti-tithing brethren then subtly say they have no problem with such - yet, these same anti-tithers hold that such Christians have fallen from grace!

If the real problem is the talk of "obligation", then let's focus on that rather than shout everywhere that "tithing is wrong" and yet come back pretending that we don't have a problem with Christians who choose to tithe! That, my brother, is the height of hypocrisy. If something is wrong, don't come back saying if some people are doing it, you don't have a problem with them even though you are condemning what they do. Let us not muddy the waters with ambiguous language - rather, let us be clear.

To be clear, I have no worries at all with anyone who chooses to tithe or NOT to tithe; but I do have a problem with making tithing an "obligation" upon the Body of Christ - and in the same way, I have a problem with people who want to make their own anti-tither arguments "obligatory" unto others! This is why I have often said that people should be left to decide what they want to do - either ways, as long as we are not forcing anything upon anyone, then the arguments would not need to even arise at all.

nuclearboy:

How is that so hard to understand? Look at Gary's caveat (also bolded) that it wouldn't be a problem if the right teaching WHICH YOU SAY you advocate was what was being taught i.e. it is voluntary and not a law.

I know people who teach it voluntarily - and we don't have to go very far to see anti-tithers in this thread who have a problem with voluntray tithes. So the so-called caveat from Gary is pretentious - people who say they don't have a problem with Christians tithing are the same folks who condemn voluntary tithes; some neatly tell us that such tithing Christians are sinning (why, they do know). . or that these Christians have fallen from grace. In some other "caveat", anti-tithers tell us that tithing Christians are going to hell!

It is because of noise like that that I just don't want to be bothered by pro-tithing or anti-tithing arguments. I cannot trust anti-tithers who see everything wrong with tithers and then turn round and say that they do not have a problem with them when in bold fact they do not hide or pretend about condeming tithers. Yes, I know some would be quick to tell me that pro-tithers also condemn anti-tithers. . . I thank those who remind me about that; but I also remind them that their own condemnation against tithers are not better if they think that tithers have fallen from grace.

nuclearboy:
God will prevail, Viaro and I know you will in time seriously regret this thing you're doing, for you will see its effect firsthand one day.

I do not regret "this thing". . . I've had enough time in my life to have regretted arguing against tithe before God openned my eyes on how many anti-tithers are using falsehood to condemn tithers! If I am going to regret rejecting the fallacies of anti-tithing arguments which I counter, so be it - I say this not in pride or haughtiness; but rather because I know that the legalism of anti-tithing arguments is not what God has setout for me.

nuclearboy:

This is mainly a Nigerian forum - always remember that; and most everyone we speak of here operates here and ARE destroying people's lives telling them NOT to support poor or orphaned or widow but to bring all streams to the billionaires who build monuments to themselves and say "God is good" because they are thriving through the fear of others. Can you honestly read a thread like "pay debt or pay tithe" and see what a guy named Mantraa decided to use to show truth; yet insist this is a good thing? Its the usage that we condemn since it is not binding you pay tithe. What is binding is that you "give willingly and as led". Now, if you would contest that, let me know. If that is true then, why not say that rather than defend the indefensible simply because God gave you an intellect that is "tops". You're not fair.

Okay, if you don't want me to discuss with Nigerians because this is a Nigerian forum, I shall leave you in peace and wish you love till Jesus comes.

Shalom.

You've not come down hard (as you think), Viaro

You only made your position known and I did mine too, albeit, a bit earlier.

These tithephobics never look at issues presented them(well that's a characteristic of fear,it paralyzes), they keep looking for holes and seeming weak points to attack. Did you also notice that I said that I'll rather take God's Words? Of course not! Your trade is to pick and choose, and make mountains out of molehills.
They'll claim not to have problem with tithe if. . . So now, tithes are the reasons for the sufferings in the country or the world, how myopic and uninformed. So you also think that when there's a 'church project' in any of your hated places of worship, they run it on 10%. You must be misinformed. Tithe is the least these people give, how many times/ways will that be told you?
See what you've said among others. "Tithe is extremely wicked antichristian doctrine, the most damning issue in christianity(you're a joke to The body of Christ to think such), a doctrine from the pits of hell". These hypocrites will then claim that they have nothing against tithe from the heart. This they do not because they care for the poor, but because they are jealous thieves lacking grace, and full of quotable articles but devoid of God's Word.

2Corinthians 9v6 every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
As he purposeth in his heart speaks of determination, what he determines. It's not speaking of following your heart. Follow your mind/heart is new age stuff. We're to follow God. Ogagim is close to it in his laboured clarification.
I want to also say that this verse is overbloated by tithephobics. Men have rather made a mountain out of a molehill in this case. And I think the overratings has got the devil at the back and helm. Just because scripture is quoted doesn't necessarily make the statement truth. Devil specialises in halftruths, seemingly quoting God's Word to Eve, even to Jesus. People are saying God loves a cheerful giver with the impression created that one should not give (offering, or tithes or anything) except you're cheerful. i.e people shouldn't give until they feel like it. Well, is anyone going to hell if they give uncheerfully,no? Does God hate an uncheerful giver, I ask?

Image:

And now you've had your poorly put together and communicated "say", what have you accomplished?

[1] You made us realise you're not interested in whether the giving is cheerful or labored or forced when you say

Image123:

Well, is anyone going to hell if they give uncheerfully,no? Does God hate an uncheerful giver, I ask?

so as long as you collect, it doesn't matter whether they're uncheerful or not. You're likely a pastoral assistant waiting for his turn to be "sent forth" so I can understand.

[2] You show the confusion in your life (no brain and no heart, anyway) when you call people who are not collecting from anyone thieves and say it is those collecting that are "godly" and honest.

[3] You lie. I HAVE EVERYTHING against tithes and never said otherwise. What I have nothing against is gifts from the heart, not your legalistic "tithe" that makes a mockery of God's intentions for His children.

[4] Your ignorance - we quote God's Word but are "devoid of God's Word".

Did you ever hear this - "They that sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind"? Its in Hosea 8:7 (thats in the Bible) and like all things God says, it shall come to pass

Mr Image123, you are in the habit of coming here to run commentaries. Why are you afraid of confrontation? Is it because you feel your line of argument is probably too weak to be taken seriously? The few attempts you made always result in you making for the nearest exit with your tail between your legs.

Image123:

Did you also notice that I said that I'll rather take God's Words? Of course not! Your trade is to pick and choose, and make mountains out of molehills.

People ignored this bit cos your posts so far do not provide evidence you’ve been following God’s words.

Image123:

See what you've said among others. "Tithe teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is extremely wicked antichristian doctrine, the most damning issue in christianity(you're a joke to The body of Christ to think such), a doctrine from the pits of hell".

I made some slight modifications to your post, hope you don’t mind

Zikky
You're making baseless accusations. Being a tithephobic isn't an excuse for dishonesty, being a sinner is.
Making modifications to my posts is normal for you. At least, you're fond of doing it to God's Word, removing and adding as you please.

Nuclearboy
I'll be back to address your sorryness. I've more serious issues to attend to now, than light matters like tithes.

@ Ogajim

I'm not an old Nler, I got registered on this forum not too long ago but I never commented on it cos of lack of steady network connection.

Are you a christian? I mean do you go to church or rather do you take time to read your bible and get understanding of what you read if you do not go to church?

@ other anti-tithe payers,

If you guys are really 'christians' I mean 'if you are a church goer' even if you are not a born again christian and you don't love money rather love God, what is so difficult for you to pay just 10% of your income(earnings) to the church where you worship? What is 10% that you can't just let go if the insist on you paying, which I believe no one will ever tell you to pay it with a gun to your head. On the other hand, please if you don't believe in 'doctrines', if we should call it so, please leave that church so that you won't be classify as being disobedient which you know is a sin.

God will never force any one to do something, even in salvation he will never force you to let him have his way in your life, but the end thereof will justify his commandments. So for tithing, if you don't find it lawful to pay tithe, please don't do it. Let those that believe in it do it and stop crucifying them, still the end will justify it.

I want to ask for as many of these anti-tithers on this forum who do go to church to tell me if in their different churches, offerings are not always call for. I mean the ones you will give from your heart. Why do you even offer those ones if you've ever offered? Why don't you just stop offering in church and get on the streets to give to the poor and needy on our streets? You know we have them enough on our roads and streets who really need your help, yet they are still there and you are here preaching what you don't do. Okay let's say that each and everyone on this forum standing for or against tithing should just go do what he believes and preaches. I think with that Nigeria will be a better place. When Jesus talked of offering willingly from your heart, it was supposed to be the general offerings they get from your churches but for the 10% of your income, he demand it as he demands your time and love for him.

Remember, to love God entails KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS.

For those who think that tithe was meant for the Jews in the old or even now and not meant for us here, why don't you use only the New Testament of the Bible and forgo the Old Testament? We normally ignore most laws in the Old Testament because we believe it was only meant for the Jews or people of Old, but we forget to note that Jesus did not come to condemn the law. For as many as he wanted to make amend, he did. For example, Moses said that you can divorce your wife and go ahead to marry another but when he came he said that he hates divorce, but if ye should divorce it should be on grounds of adultery and not be remarry. This is one of such laws he mended.

I also think for those who said you should listen to your heart, it's not the best idea. God speaks through his word and sometimes openly to your hears and mind but most of our hearts have been so hardened that we would never listen to our heart when it speaks, or we rather be fast to hearken to the wickedness of our heart. Follow the word, Go to a Believing church not just the one you like because what you want to hear is being preached there.

GO OUT THERE AND CONTRIBUTE YOUR QUOTA, DO YOUR VERY BEST, MAKE SURE WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN DOES NOT TAKE YOU TO DAMNATION. IN ALL YOU DO MAKE YOU ARE DIRECTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT,

^^^ Optimist, I am a Christian who is driven to serve God the best way possible to achieve perfection even if that means discarding some of the widely held positions/beliefs/doctrines because at the end of the day, Jesus Christ is the only one I would emulate and not some "MOG" or "GOM". Being unselfish also means sharing the information I have with other believers as "Iron sharpeneth Iron"

I don't need to publicize what I give but I do my fair share in CASH and KIND, Some folks never fail to amaze me when I read some of the "opinions" here on NL, A Christian is required to demonstrate fervent love (charity) towards others be they Christian or not and I am not an auditor but remember God sees all things including our hearts and know those who really serve him in truth and in spirit, you are a man and your opinion of my service since you don't know me really doesn't matter to me.

Shagari was still president when I left high school so don't think you're talking to a kid buddy. Take time to look at the World around you to know what's vanity and what's not because ALL the institutions people tend to look up to really aren't there to glorify God, if you look closely, you will see. Some of us have taken a long time to look at some things and come to the conclusions we have and prayed about it as well. I don't tithe, I do OFFERING and give of my time and resources to help others and my Church, I don't need validation.

Mark 13:33 (King James Version)

33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

@ OGAJIM

I will never insult or attempt to insult anyone on this forum but try my very best to enlighten people on contentious matters that I have ideas on.

I would personally want to know why you don't pay tithe but rather give offering in church. Sorry if it's in your earlier post,might be I didn't go through them one after the other. Is it that the so call tithe is too much for you to pay, maybe considering the millions you make. lol,

Also, being an elderly person doesn't mean that you know all about even this topic we are deliberating on. As a matter of fact God hides most of his 'things', I mean most of what he wants to reveal to humanity he hides it from the mighty and the scholars of the world. He uses things that seems foolish to reveal his works.

Can I be very clear on this, is it that your denomination doesn't pay tithe or you just decided not to pay? Or perhaps there's a portion of the bible that forbids such practice?

Asking this with no intention of infringement.

D-optimist,

Tithing is not a requirement for a Christian; Jesus does not require a Christian to tithe; the apostles did not teach or require a Christian to tithe; the Bible does not require a Christian to tithe.

When you post the way you are doing, I'm afraid you are displaying ignorance of the Bible and of Christian doctrine.

First of all go back, sit down, take your time to learn some basic things or do "research"; you can start by simply reading all the posts on this thread i.e. arguments for and against "tithing"; When you are better informed, even if you still believe in "tithing" come back and discuss with informed people.

Let me give you one clue: the major debate on this thread has been between two camps: those who advocate "tithing" even though they accept that it is NOT a Christian obligation and those who insist that the biblical teaching is that each Christian should simply give as s/he purposes in his heart.

So, you still have some work to do before you can be taken seriously I'm afraid.

Image123:

Zikky
You're making baseless accusations. Being a tithephobic isn't an excuse for dishonesty, being a sinner is.
Making modifications to my posts is normal for you. At least, you're fond of doing it to God's Word, removing and adding as you please.

Zikkyy is dishonest abi? Let take another look at the evidence

Enigma initial post

Enigma:

^^^ This is a fantastic encapsulation of why the agitation to challenge the teaching on "tithing". The fact of the matter is that "tithe" teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is an extremely wicked anti-Christian doctrine.

Your response

Image123:

See what you've said among others. "Tithe is extremely wicked antichristian doctrine, the most damning issue in christianity(you're a joke to The body of Christ to think such), a doctrine from the pits of hell".

My correction

Image123:

See what you've said among others. "Tithe teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is extremely wicked antichristian doctrine, the most damning issue in christianity(you're a joke to The body of Christ to think such), a doctrine from the pits of hell".

Now between zikkyy and Image123, who is truly dishonest? It’s quite obvious to readers you re the one displaying adding and removing skills here. This is exactly what I find you doing to God’s word; you take the bible twist the content and come up with your own version, Zikkyy comes along to correct you, and you say he is dishonest. Imagine that   You should be ashamed of yourself image123  

@ Zikky

I saw Image123's "wayo" and I hope/believe most readers saw it too; your own integrity on the matter is totally intact!

D-optimist:

@ other anti-tithe payers,

If you guys are really 'christians' I mean 'if you are a church goer' even if you are not a born again christian and you don't love money rather love God, what is so difficult for you to pay just 10% of your income(earnings) to the church where you worship? What is 10% that you can't just let go if the insist on you paying, which I believe no one will ever tell you to pay it with a gun to your head. On the other hand, please if you don't believe in 'doctrines', if we should call it so, please leave that church so that you won't be classify as being disobedient which you know is a sin.  

The problem I have with you guys is that you don’t read posts. When you manage to, you have problem processing the information. Your post above does not reflect the true position of the people you are directing your post at. After going through eleven pages, I expect you to be more accurate in your assessment. Or have you been relying on hearsay? Maybe the only post you read is that of Image123. Do yourself a favor and read through one more time.

D-optimist:

When Jesus talked of offering willingly from your heart, it was supposed to be the general offerings they get from your churches but for the 10% of your income, he demand it as he demands your time and love for him.

So the 10%of my income is by force abi? Okay na.

D-optimist:

I also think for those who said you should listen to your heart, it's not the best idea. God speaks through his word and sometimes openly to your hears and mind but most of our hearts have been so hardened that we would never listen to our heart when it speaks, or we rather be fast to hearken to the wickedness of our heart. Follow the word, Go to a Believing church not just the one you like because what you want to hear is being preached there.

What are you saying here?

D-optimist:

GO OUT THERE AND CONTRIBUTE YOUR QUOTA, DO YOUR VERY BEST, MAKE SURE WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN DOES NOT TAKE YOU TO DAMNATION. IN ALL YOU DO MAKE YOU ARE DIRECTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT,

Nice. I like this part   If only you will listen to yourself