CAPTIVATOR:

JUST as you swallow an argument that said eating emblem is important for everlasting life irregardless of whether its factual or not , only to run away on the other thread . shown another hole in the argument you propagate on this thread again, by a user Jozzy4, you quickly deflect again .

Says much about you .

Is baptism necessary for Salvation? Can you enter God's kingdom without baptism?

rottennaija:


Is baptism necessary for Salvation? Can you enter God's kingdom without baptism?

Why not go and address your other blunders you left behind?

rottennaija:


Is baptism necessary for Salvation? Can you enter God's kingdom without baptism?

1. 1 Pet 3:21 Baptism puts a person in line for Salvation Like Noah's ark .. Its a public expression of the 'Request a person made to God for a good conscience through the ressurection of Jesus Christ ' ( Dedication )


2. Its required of Christians, a symbol of a Christians dedication to God Even Jesus did set the pattern . ( Matt 28:19,20), But many people in the past, will be ressurected in other to gain Life even when they had not been baptized as long as they put faith in Christ . ( Act 24:15)

CAPTIVATOR:


1. 1 Pet 3:21 Baptism puts a person in line for Salvation Like Noah's ark .. Its a public expression of the 'Request a person made to God for a good conscience through the ressurection of Jesus Christ ' ( Dedication )


2. Its required of Christians, a symbol of a Christians dedication to God Even Jesus did set the pattern . ( Matt 28:19,20), But many people in the past, will be ressurected in other to gain Life even when they had not been baptized as long as they put faith in Christ . ( Act 24:15)

So how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?

I mean, isn't it contradictory?

rottennaija:


So how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?

I mean, isn't it contradictory?

You didn't read well, here is the statement again " ), But many people in the past, will be ressurected in other to gain Life even when they had not been baptized as long as they put faith in Christ . ( Act 24:15) "

By ressurected to gain Life, this refers to their conduct after ressurection, which gives them a fresh opportunity to Know Christ and decide to put faith in him, those who do are hence granted everlasting life , ( John 3:16 )

CAPTIVATOR:


You didn't read well, here is the statement again " ), But many people in the past, will be ressurected in other to gain Life even when they had not been baptized as long as they put faith in Christ . ( Act 24:15) "

By ressurected to gain Life, this refers to their conduct after ressurection, which gives them a fresh opportunity to Know Christ and decide to put faith in him, those who do are hence granted everlasting life , ( John 3:16 )

Actually, I read and understood what you wrote. It seems that you don't understand my question (the context).

When I asked "So how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?" , this was in specific reference to those who were declared to have God's favour. People like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Joel.

So, my question is "how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?

I mean, isn't it contradictory?

rottennaija:

Actually, I read and understood what you wrote. It seems that you don't understand my question (the context).

When I asked "So how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?" , this was in specific reference to those who were declared to have God's favour. People like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Joel.

So, my question is "how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?

I mean, isn't it contradictory?

None of them is yet qualified for everlasting life as they've not fully exercise faith in Jesus. They must learn to put Jesus' thoughts, words and actions to good use and in fact make it their own.

That's why the Bible said these ones will be resurrected so that they're judged by what is written about Jesus and how Jehovah's Witnesses have exercised faith in Jesus as they made a happy global family of peace-loving worshippers possible in a world filled with hatred and racism! Revelations 20:13-15

Whoever ignores what we're telling them then will be destroyed completely, that's why those who knew all these arrangements will be the FIRST to be resurrected. 1Thessalonians 4:16

So from Abel till John the baptist aren't yet certified for everlasting life {Matthew 11:11} because they never had the opportunity to exercise faith in Jesus, the one and only way to real life! John 3:16

Maximus69:

None of them is yet qualified for everlasting life as they've not fully exercise faith in Jesus. They must learn to put Jesus' thoughts, words and actions to good use and in fact make it their own.

That's why the Bible said these ones will be resurrected so that they're judged by what is written about Jesus and how Jehovah's Witnesses have exercised faith in Jesus as they made a happy global family of peace-loving worshippers possible in a world filled with hatred and racism! Revelations 20:13-15

Whoever ignores what we're telling them then will be destroyed completely, that's why those who knew all these arrangements will be the FIRST to be resurrected. 1Thessalonians 4:16

So from Abel till John the baptist aren't yet certified for everlasting life {Matthew 11:11} because they never had the opportunity to exercise faith in Jesus, the one and only way to real life! John 3:16

While I will wait for CAPTIVATOR to respond to my questions, your response is quite interesting, even amusing. What I will do is to save it (together with my question for context), then frame it up and hang it somewhere.

rottennaija:


While I will wait for CAPTIVATOR to respond to my questions, your response is quite interesting, even amusing. What I will do is to save it (together with my question for context), then frame it up and hang it somewhere.

You will see each sentence backed with scriptural reference.

So if you feel it's amusing there's no problem, but know that the same goes with whatever you're saying as long as you're not able to correlate what you believe with all the scriptures!

A Jehovah's Witness will just be laughing at you each time you dodge a thought provoking question due to a scriptural quotation that totally sound contradicting to what you're asserting and you can't explain whether it's symbolic, only for you to be expecting an interested person to wipe it out completely from his thoughts and agree with you anyway!

rottennaija:

Actually, I read and understood what you wrote. It seems that you don't understand my question (the context).

When I asked "So how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?" , this was in specific reference to those who were declared to have God's favour. People like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Joel.

So, my question is "how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life?

I mean, isn't it contradictory?

You are wrong. They are yet to put faith in Jesus.

They were Prisoners to the Faith about Jesus and his ransom .


Galatians 3: 23

" Now before faith came we were held in CUSTODY under the LAW, being kept as PRISONERS until the coming FAITH would be Revealed ".

How could people kept as prisoners to the faith to come be said to have fully put faith in Christ ?

Colosians 1:26 buttress further, this sacred secret was HiDDEn from past generations ... Do u see why your question is very wrong now ?

CAPTIVATOR:

You are wrong. They are yet to put faith in Jesus.

They were Prisoners to the Faith about Jesus and his ransom .


Galatians 3: 23

" Now before faith came we were held in CUSTODY under the LAW, being kept as PRISONERS until the coming FAITH would be Revealed ".

How could people kept as prisoners to the faith to come be said to have fully put faith in Christ ?

Colosians 1:26 buttress further, this sacred secret was HiDDEn from past generations ... Do u see why your question is very wrong now ?

Was Noah, Abraham, Jacob also prisoners of the law too?

rottennaija:

Was Noah, Abraham, Jacob also prisoners of the law too?

They were called to work for the preparation of the Law. Notice that whenever God speaks to any of these people you mentioned, he's emphatic about people's lifestyles and attitude which were clearly seen as bad deeds when the law finally arrives!

So all of them even from Abel till John the baptist were all PRISONERS of the Law until Faith in Jesus was established! Abel offered a sacrifice that's of greater value than that of Cain {his brother} of course both men offered their sacrifices before the one who neither need meat nor fruits to survive. But why was it of any significance?
Because it depicts what God himself will do to remove the blemish of Adamic sin! Only those who lived after Jesus performed the ultimate sacrifice and put faith in that sacrifice are no more prisoners of what remains anonymous to all from Abel till John the baptist! Matthew 11:11

So they were all prisoners to the same course, even in my own opinion Moses and all those who lived after him were much more enlighten about the personality of our Creator than all those who lived before Moses! Exodus 6:2-3

CAPTIVATOR:

You are wrong. They are yet to put faith in Jesus.

They were Prisoners to the Faith about Jesus and his ransom .


Galatians 3: 23

" Now before faith came we were held in CUSTODY under the LAW, being kept as PRISONERS until the coming FAITH would be Revealed ".

How could people kept as prisoners to the faith to come be said to have fully put faith in Christ ?

Colosians 1:26 buttress further, this sacred secret was HiDDEn from past generations ... Do u see why your question is very wrong now ?

I hope you realize that in Galatians 3: 23, the apostle Paul is writings about the Mosaic law. Now, please refer again to your post here.

Where they prisoners to the faith or prisoner to the law?

Was Noah, Abraham, Jacob also prisoners of the law or prisoners to the faith?

Was Noah, Abraham, Jacob also prisoners of the Mosaic law too?

rottennaija:


I hope you realize that in Galatians 3: 23, the apostle Paul is writings about the Mosaic law. Now, please refer again to your post here.

Where they prisoners to the faith or prisoner to the law?

Was Noah, Abraham, Jacob also prisoners of the law or prisoners to the faith?

Was Noah, Abraham, Jacob also prisoners of the Mosaic law too?

Its self explanatory, Galatians 3:23 explains the Faith has arrived in the past generations, " BEFORE the faith arrives " , " until the coming FAITH would be Revealed ". Would it use this expressions if Faith was revealed to the people u mentioned?

CAPTIVATOR:


Its self explanatory, Galatians 3:23 explains the Faith has arrived in the past generations, " BEFORE the faith arrives " , " until the coming FAITH would be Revealed ". Would it use this expressions if Faith was revealed to the people u mentioned?

How did the faith arrived in the past generations when the scriptures themselves said, "before the faith arrived"? It also said they were looking to the faith that was about to be revealed?

Did it say they were prisoners of the faith? If the faith had not arrived, how could they be prisoners of it? You are just deceiving yourself, Ga 3 is speaking about the mosaic law in particular, it was this law that kept the Israelite prisoners, captive of the law (not faith that came later).

The Mosaic law came about 400 years after Abraham Noah, Abraham, Jacob. They were never a part of the Mosaic laws, let alone be prisoners of it. When you get something wrong and your attention is drawn to it, be polite enough to see and accept your mistakes, instead of trying to muddled up the issues.

Watchtower it itself acknowledge that the place is talking of the mosaic law, as it kept the Israelite in custody (prisoner).

*** it-1 p. 562 Custody ***
At Galatians 3:19-25, a spiritual application of the terms “guarded” and “custody” is made. Paul says that the Law made transgressions manifest and that “the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin.” But he continues: “However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed.” He thereby emphasized how natural Israel was in spiritual custody, being guarded or kept by the Law, until the faith toward Christ arrived.

Custody as used by the Bible in some instances means the detention of a person. An example is the half Israelite who abused Jehovah’s name while in the camp of Israel. After he transgressed the Law, the account states: “Then they committed him into custody till there should be a distinct declaration to them according to the saying of Jehovah.”

*** w08 3/1 p. 20 “The Law Has Become Our Tutor” ***
The Law as a Tutor
Why did the apostle Paul compare the Mosaic Law to a tutor? What makes this illustration particularly appropriate?

The first aspect is the protective nature of the Law. Paul explained that the Jews were “guarded under law.” It was as though they were in the protective custody of a tutor. (Galatians 3:23) The Law influenced every aspect of their life. It bridled their lustful passions and their fleshly desires. It supervised their conduct and continually rebuked them for their shortcomings, making each Israelite aware of his own imperfections.

The Law was also a protection from corrupting influences, such as the degraded moral and religious practices of the nations that surrounded Israel. God’s prohibition on intermarriage with pagans, for example, was essential to the spiritual well-being of the nation as a whole. (Deuteronomy 7:3, 4) Such statutes preserved the spiritual purity of God’s people and prepared them to be able to recognize the Messiah. These were loving provisions indeed. Moses reminded his fellow Israelites: “Just as a man corrects his son, Jehovah your God was correcting you.”—Deuteronomy 8:5.

rottennaija:


How did the faith arrived in the past generations when the scriptures themselves said, "before the faith arrived"? It also said they were looking to the faith that was about to be revealed?

That was a typo, my point " Before the Faith arrived " is enough to tell you, the Faith has nor arrived in the past generations .

Did it say they were prisoners of the faith? If the faith had not arrived, how could they be prisoners of it? You are just deceiving yourself, Ga 3 is speaking about the mosaic law in particular, it was this law that kept the Israelite prisoners, captive of the law (not faith that came later).

The Mosaic law came about 400 years after Abraham Noah, Abraham, Jacob. They were never a part of the Mosaic laws, let alone be prisoners of it. When you get something wrong and your attention is drawn to it, be polite enough to see and accept your mistakes, instead of trying to muddled up the issues.

Watchtower it itself acknowledge that the place is talking of the mosaic law, as it kept the Israelite in custody (prisoner).

This is why I added Colossians 1:26 it was a scared secret kept from past generations

My point was : How could they have known this Faith if it was yet to arrive ?

Or you want to tell me it arrive , then return during the mosaic law era, only to come back again

CAPTIVATOR:


That was a typo, my point " Before the Faith arrived " is enough to tell you, the Faith has nor arrived in the past generations .




This is why I added Colossians 1:26 it was a scared secret kept from past generations

My point was : How could they have known this Faith if it was yet to arrive ?

Or you want to tell me it arrive , then return during the mosaic law era, only to come back again

Hmmmmmmmmmmm,

Jehovah's Witnesses, thank you guys and may God continue to bless you people for me ooooooooo!

CAPTIVATOR:


That was a typo, my point " Before the Faith arrived " is enough to tell you, the Faith has nor arrived in the past generations .




This is why I added Colossians 1:26 it was a scared secret kept from past generations

My point was : How could they have known this Faith if it was yet to arrive ?

Or you want to tell me it arrive , then return during the mosaic law era, only to come back again

Me and you are talking about different things entirely. You are talking about faith and I am talking about the mosaic law. 

Let's remind ourselves how this conversation started. 
I asked you if baptism is necessary for Salvation, which you responded affirmatively with scriptural proof (rightly and admirable so). 

But you also added that many in the past will be ressurected to gain life (a point I missed while reading your response). Since I had missed that point while reading your response, I asked "how could or did many in the past put faith in Jesus (obviously not baptised) while he was not born or had not appeared yet so that they will now gain everlasting life? 

This was when you drew my attention to the fact that I missed an important part of your response. Which is, "will be ressurected in other to gain Life even when they had not been baptized as long as they put faith in Christ ." 

Then I drew your attention to the fact that you had missed the context of my question, in which the specific reference were to men who were declared right with God, men like Abraham, Isaac etc.

Then you told me that I was wrong. Quoting GA 3:23, you said those men have not yet put faith in Christ Jesus, that they are prisoners to the faith about Jesus. Quoting Col 1:26, you said it was a sacred secret and so they could not have had faith in Jesus.

Your response coincided (though you didn't say it) with the response of Maximus69 who has said that the Abraham, Isaac, etc are not yet qualified for life and will have to be taught about Jesus by JWs in the new paradise. If they accept they will have life and if they don't, they will not.

Of course! I have learned to ignore most of his comments are some can be so naive and extreme. Now, we were talking about baptism and it's absolutely necessity for eternal life. When you mentioned those men such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, those men n of faith were prisoners of faith, in reference to Ga 3:23 you quoted. 

This had distracted from the conversation of the necessity of baptism. But it had caught my attention as you had referred to them as prisoners of faith to come. To be certain, I wanted to clarify that the apostle Paul is speaking of prisoners of the mosaic law in specific reference to the Jews and Israel, that the law came hundreds of years after Abraham, that Abraham could not have been a prisoners of the law, which he was not part of and that Ga 3 is so specific to the Israelite. 

I hope we are in the same page now. What do you think?

rottennaija:


Me and you are talking about different things entirely. You are talking about faith and I am talking about the mosaic law. 
Your response coincided (though you didn't say it) with the response of Maximus69 who has said that the Abraham, Isaac, etc are not yet qualified for life and will have to be taught about Jesus by JWs in the new paradise. If they accept they will have life and if they don't, they will not.

Of course! I have learned to ignore most of his comments are some can be naive and extreme.

Regarding the difference in what both of you had in mind, i doubt if it's so. Because the Law was to guide honesthearted individuals until the arrival of Faith. So all honesthearted ones who lived after Moses became prisoners of the Law as they're well aware that it's from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with whom God made a covenant, these prisoners were held hostage by their own conscience as they really want to please that faithful God!

So it's exactly the same thing you're both saying, the only difference is while you believe that pre-Christian servants of God are automatically qualified for everlasting life, we JWs are saying NO they can't because they never had the opportunity to exercise faith in Jesus who later established Christianity which is the WAY, TRUTH and LIFE! Matthew 11:11

If you choose to ignore, it's none of our business. You yourselves have unknowingly testified to the fact that JWs can be of different
Nationalities
Cultures
Traditions
Profession
Literacy and so on but if questioned on any Topic our thoughts remain the same!

The Truth can't be twisted because there is no way millions of people from different nationalities across the globe can have one line of thought without the same teaching. So that's not gullibility neither is it extremety but oneness in word and thought! Romans 15:5-6, 1Corinthians 1:10, Ephesians 4:3

God bless you Sir!