OkCornel:


More testimonies from nairalanders;

Funny that these testimonies carry the weight of evidence for you. Are they not just the subjective experiences of the individuals? And why should Christ, who only currently exists in Spirit, look like any of the pictures of shown? Is that in itself not evidence of actually not having an encounter with Christ at all? Sounds like image making to me. The abandoning of the Spirit for the flesh.

Is it not [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A40&version=KJVwritten]written[/url] that inasmuch as ye have done to those whom thou seest.........

budaatum:

Funny that these testimonies carry the weight of evidence for you. Are they not just the subjective experiences of the individuals? And why should Christ, who only currently exists in Spirit, look like any of the pictures of shown? Is that in itself not evidence of actually not having an encounter with Christ at all? Sounds like image making to me. The abandoning of the Spirit for the flesh.

Is it not [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A40&version=KJVwritten]written[/url] that inasmuch as ye have done to those whom thou seest.........

I guess the testimonies of many others from various parts of the world with the same conclusion should be counted as lies...

I also guess I must have committed a grevious error in believing "ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find"

Absolutely no worries at all...

OkCornel:

I guess the testimonies of many others should be counted as lies...

No! It is not for you to count! Counters do not love! They just count trees in the eyes of others.

OkCornel:
I also guess I must have committed a grevious error in believing "ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find"

No! And I say that despite my abhorrence of "believing" which I recently stated here!

First, it matters not whether you believe the testimonies of others or not, for they, unless their intent is to sheepiefy you, do not testify for your believing. And how, pray tell, is their testimony your own "find"?

OkCornel:

Absolutely no worries at all...

As you can clearly see, I do worry, a lot.

budaatum:

Hold on! You do know there were other additions, omissions, and edits in todays Bibles, right? Kind of makes believing suspect, won't you say? One might believe in a corrupted version!

buda is derailing! As far as op is concerned, thou shalt not create graven images and bow down to worship them.

There were. Not enough though to produce a "corrupted version," only enough to prevent a believer who is not diligent in the Truth from reaching spiritual maturity. If we are diligent, the same way that weird statements in something someone is saying to us or writing would stand out, the foreign elements would seem awkward in the context of the Bible.

For example, in John 7:53-8:11, something would not sit right with a story that sounds like that. At the end, the Lord Jesus does not condemn her? He forgave the man suffering from the palsy before healing him. He commanded the man he healed in John 5 to stop sinning or face worse consequences. In other words, even when He does not say that He does not condemn them, He does not even imply that He does not. When He forgives, it is because He saw faith. When He heals the man who was an invalid, it is because of the same. Why then is it said that He does not condemn here? In a way, it is because people want to see that He is not harsh on sin, but the Lord Jesus really is, as we see from Hebrews 13 and Revelation 2-3, at least.

Another example is the "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" statement. That also attempts to make this Jesus a forgiving Jesus Who bears all sin with little demand on the sinner. In fact, not a single person is forgiven who does not ask for it. Although the Lord Jesus paid the price for all human sin, only those who ask for it receive forgiveness on the basis of that payment that He made.

These are some examples of additions in the Bible. Doctrinally, they conflict with the rest of the Bible, but even scholars who translate from the manuscripts can tell today with the technology we have where the text has been corrupted. So we don't need to continue to labor under such errors.

Finally, as I said before, there is less than 1% of the text that is corrupted like this. So the believer is quite fine even if he lacks such scholarship. If he is obedient enough to submit to a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher, then he will also grow spiritually and mature and bear fruit for which he will receive the three eternal crowns that all believers are promised if they finish the course well.

OkCornel:


But the gift of prophecy has been withheld by the Holy Spirit according to you...

And we have no genuine prophets with the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit in our time ba?

I've heard you ooo...

Indeed. Because 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says so.

budaatum:

No! It is not for you to count! Counters do not love! They just count trees in the eyes of others.


No! And I say that despite my abhorrence of "believing" which I recently stated here!

First, it matters not whether you believe the testimonies of others or not, for they, unless their intent is to sheepiefy you, do not testify for your believing. And how, pray tell, is their testimony your own "find"?


As you can clearly see, I do worry, a lot.

Did you read my first post on this thread?


Do you also agree the Gospel of Matthew to John is a testimony of the Apostles accounts with Jesus?

Ihedinobi3:

Indeed. Because 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says so.

No, that scripture tells clearly that Love is the greatest.

And not your interpretation that the gift of prophecy is no longer available to the church.

Going by your interpretation of that scripture, the gift of tongues and knowledge is no longer available to the church as well.

That is a fallacy

OkCornel:


No, that scripture tells clearly that Love is the greatest.

And not your interpretation that the gift of prophecy is no longer available to the church.

So, it does not say that gifts of prophecy will be done away with?

[8]Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
[9]For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
[10]but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 NASB

Are you making things up?

OkCornel:


No, that scripture tells clearly that Love is the greatest.

And not your interpretation that the gift of prophecy is no longer available to the church.

Going by your interpretation of that scripture, the gift of tongues and knowledge is no longer available to the church as well.

That is a fallacy

I just quoted it, man. I didn't interpret anything. If it doesn't say what I said that it says, then don't believe it.

1 Corinthians 13 v 8;

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

@Ihedinobi, according to your interpretation of the above scripture... in addition to the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues and knowledge no longer exists in the church too abi?

Ihedinobi3:

I just quoted it, man. I didn't interpret anything. If it doesn't say what I said that it says, then don't believe it.

You just quoted it out of context. Read the entire chapter. Paul was talking of how Love is the most important and greatest of everything.

If according to you, those gifts are no longer available to the church, then why did Paul include them as gifts of the Spirit in his letter to the Ephesian church?

OkCornel:
1 Corinthians 13 v 8;

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

@Ihedinobi, according to your interpretation of the above scripture... in addition to the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues and knowledge no longer exists in the church too abi?

Well, the only interpretation that I have done is to say that "the perfect" in verse 10 is the complete Bible. Of course you can fight about that, if you want. Otherwise, the above needs no interpretation. It says what it says, namely, those gifts are not permanent. They were not meant to be.

Ihedinobi3:

So, it does not say that gifts of prophecy will be done away with?

[8]Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
[9]For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
[10]but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 NASB

Are you making things up?

Read the entire Chapter in context and stop quoting a verse out of place;

1 Corinthians 13 King James Version (KJV)

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

King James Version (KJV)

Ihedinobi3:

Well, the only interpretation that I have done is to say that "the perfect" in verse 10 is the complete Bible. Of course you can fight about that, if you want. Otherwise, the above needs no interpretation. It says what it says, namely, those gifts are not permanent. They were not meant to be.

So that which is "perfect" has already come?

Ephesians 4 v 7-13;

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

@ihedinobi3

OkCornel:


You just quoted it out of context. Read the entire chapter. Paul was talking of how Love is the most important and greatest of everything.

If according to you, those gifts are no longer available to the church, then why did Paul include them as gifts of the Spirit in his letter to the Galatians?

Who is interpreting now? You, man, not me.

The entire chapter was part of something even larger. You'll need to read from chapter 12 to chapter 14 to understand what Paul was talking about.

The Corinthians were making a big deal of having spiritual gifts of the, well, "pyrotechnic" or dramatic sort. And Paul was explaining to them what spiritual gifts are for.

According to him, we all have different gifts all for the edification of one another to build up the entire Church, not to show off. So, if we are not doing that, then our gifts are meaningless, that is what the chapter on Love is about. We build each other up in the Truth, and we can only do that out of love for one another. If we love one another, then we will seek to help each other grow in the Truth however we are able to do that.

As it happens, only by ministering the Truth to each other can we help each other grow. At the time, the Bible was not complete so that much Truth came by revelation (prophecy) and was confirmed through all sorts of powerful signs like speaking in foreign languages supernaturally and other miracles.

But at a point in time, the Bible would be completed and widely available (and it was well before 70AD even). At that point, prophecy would no longer be necessary since you could find the whole Truth by reading the Bible. Dramatic things like speaking in foreign languages supernaturally and performing incredible miracles like healing would also no longer be necessary to prove that those who were proclaiming the Gospel were truly speaking for God, since all you needed to do was read the Bible to know if what they were saying was true.

So, of course, the Coming of the complete Bible ended that era of great signs and wonders. Now we help each other grow in the Truth by using the Bible to proclaim the Gospel to unbelievers, by using it to teach believers so that they can grow in the Truth, and by using what spiritual gifts the Lord has given to us to help each other access the Bible and solid Bible teaching so that we can all grow to maturity and become spiritually productive too.

Ihedinobi3:

Who is interpreting now? You, man, not me.

The entire chapter was part of something even larger. You'll need to read from chapter 12 to chapter 14 to understand what Paul was talking about.

The Corinthians were making a big deal of having spiritual gifts of the, well, "pyrotechnic" or dramatic sort. And Paul was explaining to them what spiritual gifts are for.

According to him, we all have different gifts all for the edification of one another to build up the entire Church, not to show off. So, if we are not doing that, then our gifts are meaningless, that is what the chapter on Love is about. We build each other up in the Truth, and we can only do that out of love for one another. If we love one another, then we will seek to help each other grow in the Truth however we are able to do that.

As it happens, only by ministering the Truth to each other can we help each other grow. At the time, the Bible was not complete so that much Truth came by revelation (prophecy) and was confirmed through all sorts of powerful signs like speaking in foreign languages supernaturally and other miracles.

But at a point in time, the Bible would be completed and widely available (and it was well before 70AD even). At that point, prophecy would no longer be necessary since you could find the whole Truth by reading the Bible. Dramatic things like speaking in foreign languages supernaturally and performing incredible miracles like healing would also no longer be necessary to prove that those who were proclaiming the Gospel were truly speaking for God, since all you needed to do was read the Bible to know if what they were saying was true.

So, of course, the Coming of the complete Bible ended that era of great signs and wonders. Now we help each other grow in the Truth by using the Bible to proclaim the Gospel to unbelievers, by using it to teach believers so that they can grow in the Truth, and by using what spiritual gifts the Lord has given to us to help each other access the Bible and solid Bible teaching so that we can all grow to maturity and become spiritually productive too.

1) The gift of prophecy is still very much active, just as it was in the Old and New Testament

2) The purpose of those gifts (prophecy, tongues e.t.c) are for;
a) Perfection of the Saints
b) Edification of the body of Christ
c) For the work of the ministry

Unless you want to tell us the objectives for which the gifts were given in Ephesians 4 v 11-13 HAS BEEN FULLY ACCOMPLISHED

Meaning none of the gifts are relevant or are absent since the Bible era

OkCornel:


1) The gift of prophecy is still very much active, just as it was in the Old and New Testament

2) The purpose of those gifts (prophecy, tongues e.t.c) are for;
a) Perfection of the Saints
b) Edification of the body of Christ
c) For the work of the ministry

Unless you want to tell us the objectives for which the gifts were given in Ephesians 4 v 11-13 HAS BEEN FULLY ACCOMPLISHED

Meaning none of the gifts are relevant or are absent since the Bible era

This is the point at which I would laugh at you.

You are basically saying, "in spite of everything I have seen, I'm going to keep believing this thing I believe because that is what I want to believe, and I don't care if it's false." Sure, do that. You're welcome to believe whatever you like. You and the Lord will settle affairs on that when He returns.

As for me, I know that the perfection of the saints is what edification is about, and it only comes about through the work of ministry, which in turn is only possible when the saint has been built up or "edified" to "perfection" or maturity when he becomes able to use his spiritual gift to aid other saints to grow. And I also know that none of this can happen unless the Truth is what is being ministered.

And since the Truth is now complete in the Bible, I know that prophecy and other gifts that were used as placeholders have ceased or been removed until the Tribulation.

That is where I stand. Stand wherever you please.

Ihedinobi3:

There were. Not enough though to produce a "corrupted version," only enough to prevent a believer who is not diligent in the Truth from reaching spiritual maturity. If we are diligent, the same way that weird statements in something someone is saying to us or writing would stand out, the foreign elements would seem awkward in the context of the Bible.

For example, in John 7:53-8:11, something would not sit right with a story that sounds like that. At the end, the Lord Jesus does not condemn her? He forgave the man suffering from the palsy before healing him. He commanded the man he healed in John 5 to stop sinning or face worse consequences. In other words, even when He does not say that He does not condemn them, He does not even imply that He does not. When He forgives, it is because He saw faith. When He heals the man who was an invalid, it is because of the same. Why then is it said that He does not condemn here? In a way, it is because people want to see that He is not harsh on sin, but the Lord Jesus really is, as we see from Hebrews 13 and Revelation 2-3, at least.

Another example is the "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" statement. That also attempts to make this Jesus a forgiving Jesus Who bears all sin with little demand on the sinner. In fact, not a single person is forgiven who does not ask for it. Although the Lord Jesus paid the price for all human sin, only those who ask for it receive forgiveness on the basis of that payment that He made.

These are some examples of additions in the Bible. Doctrinally, they conflict with the rest of the Bible, but even scholars who translate from the manuscripts can tell today with the technology we have where the text has been corrupted. So we don't need to continue to labor under such errors.

Finally, as I said before, there is less than 1% of the text that is corrupted like this. So the believer is quite fine even if he lacks such scholarship. If he is obedient enough to submit to a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher, then he will also grow spiritually and mature and bear fruit for which he will receive the three eternal crowns that all believers are promised if they finish the course well.

I do not consider you a "believer" Ihe. You have done far too much work to merely believe, and seem to use the word in its traditional pastor teaching sense, which perhaps is why you and I conflict being a teacher myself, albeit of earthly maths. I just can't imagine the harm I'd do if instead of teaching to understand I tell my students to believe in Pythagoras. I see that as the problem of our society and nation in fact. Imagine how so much more powerful we could be if the tools to understand that you clearly have is what is taught instead of "belief". Would we not know to say "Let there be light", and light will be?

The devil in me just makes me want to take my pen and delete that word and replace it with 'understand', and 'know'. After all, when one seeks, one may indeed believe, but once one has found, one must surely know and understand, as you clearly do.

But indeed, there is a need. For how does one teach understanding of what requires long years of personal study and experience least one first believe it then seek understanding, which is what you have done? Yet will I, as unworthy as I am, ask one as you to consider that if the taught could learn to do that which makes you you, o how much more understanding and knowing and power there might be.

I, buda, pray.

Ihedinobi3:

This is the point at which I would laugh at you.

You are basically saying, "in spite of everything I have seen, I'm going to keep believing this thing I believe because that is what I want to believe, and I don't care if it's false." Sure, do that. You're welcome to believe whatever you like. You and the Lord will settle affairs on that when He returns.

As for me, I know that the perfection of the saints is what edification is about, and it only comes about through the work of ministry, which in turn is only possible when the saint has been built up or "edified" to "perfection" or maturity when he becomes able to use his spiritual gift to aid other saints to grow. And I also know that none of this can happen unless the Truth is what is being ministered.

And since the Truth is now complete in the Bible, I know that prophecy and other gifts that were used as placeholders have ceased or been removed until the Tribulation.

That is where I stand. Stand wherever you please.

So the church of today has many fiefdoms, denominations and many conflicting doctrines are the embodiment of saints already perfected abi?

You need to have a good look at yourself for trying to fit the Holy Spirit into a box.

So wait, the signs and wonders of men called by God after the Bible era e.g. say John G. Lake or Williams J. Seymour or Kathryn Khulman... they're all fake or what?

Nice to see you limiting the words of God and the abilities of His Spirit to the Bible era...

It's interesting to hear someone telling us there are no believers with the gift of prophecy since after the Bible era...

Very interesting...

OkCornel:
Ephesians 4 v 7-13;

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I wonder why one would say the gift of prophecy ends with the Bible era...when it is very clear verse 12-13 is not fully achieved.

Talk about unity of the faith, we see a fractured and divided church currently. Talk about knowledge of the Son of God, people are quarelling whether Jesus is God or not. Talk about stature of the fulness of Christ, there are still a lot of spiritual babies in the church...

And someone is saying what?

OkCornel:


Did you read my first post on this thread?


Do you also agree the Gospel of Matthew to John is a testimony of the Apostles accounts with Jesus?

No, Cornel, I had not read your account of Akiane, though, as you have seen in one of my posts, I did go and research her all the same. Now that I have read your post though, I can't but be reminded of the angel of the Lord taking Swedenborg on a journey through Heaven and Hell.

None of the Gospels were written by any of the Apostles of Jesus. None of them are even eyewitness accounts as shown by Luke who tells us clearly that his narrative is what he received from many before him and eyewitnesses and ministers, which is clearly, a second hand account.

But that's besides the point. The Word of God it is to those who place God at the forefront of their reading despite the additions, corrections and ommisions, for the devil too [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4%3A1-11&version=NKJV]wears[/url] Prada.

budaatum:

I do not consider you a "believer" Ihe. You have done far too much work to merely believe, and seem to use the word in its traditional pastor teaching sense, which perhaps is why you and I conflict being a teacher myself, albeit of earthly maths. I just can't imagine the harm I'd do if instead of teaching to understand I tell my students to believe in Pythagoras. I see that as the problem of our society and nation in fact. Imagine how so much more powerful we could be if the tools to understand that you clearly have is what is taught instead of "belief". Would we not know to say "Let there be light", and light will be?

The devil in me just makes me want to take my pen and delete that word and replace it with 'understand', and 'know'. After all, when one seeks, one may indeed believe, but once one has found, one must surely know and understand, as you clearly do.

But indeed, there is a need. For how does one teach understanding of what requires long years of personal study and experience least one first believe it then seek understanding, which is what you have done? Yet will I, as unworthy as I am, ask one as you to consider that if the taught could learn to do that which makes you you, o how much more understanding and knowing and power there might be.

I, buda, pray.

If you teach math, I think you'll understand then, if I use the concept of axioms.

You cannot even begin to understand anything about a mathematical system, if you do not first accept certain axioms upon which to base your mathematical reasoning.

But axioms cannot be proven. They are fundamental assumptions that are either right or just not right. In the end, you have to simply decide whether it makes sense to believe or accept a set of axioms or not. But you must make that choice to even have a shot at getting started on a mathematical journey.

This is what makes a believer a believer. We have to decide first and foremost whether we are willing to base everything on Jesus Christ, God become Man to die on the Cross for our sins, or not. We have to decide if we trust Him enough to believe whatever He says. Then we have to make the decision to diligently learn everything that He has to say and teach and studiously and painstakingly apply it in every point to our lives.

This is not something that you can say that you can study and scrutinize and prove. Either it makes sense to us intuitively to believe in the Lord Jesus or it does not. As it is, all of Creation around us and our own consciences are all we need to figure out whether such Faith is sensible or not. If we choose not to believe in the Lord Jesus, we will end up believing something else entirely. But we will choose in one direction or another. No one can avoid that.

On the basis of what we choose to believe fundamentally, that is, the axioms of life that we choose to adopt, we start to make sense of life. Of course, life will produce a feedback to tell you whether your axioms were sensible or not. If they were, you will find encouragement and confirmation in your choice to believe, and you will go from "tentative" to "sure" in time. This really is what we call spiritual growth in Christianity. At spiritual maturity, the believer is quite certain and convinced of the Truth of what he believes. He is no longer easy to persuade in any other direction. This does not mean that he cannot fall away anymore. He can, if he stops working forward. There is no standing still in the spiritual business of life. Either you are growing more resolute and convinced of one way of life or you are growing more resolute and convinced of another.

The main difference between the Christian and others is that life's feedback tends to agree with everything that the Bible teaches. It doesn't for other belief systems including atheism. But, of course, each of us has the godlike ability to believe whatever we want, which comes packaged with the ability to persuade ourselves to ignore whatever we prefer to ignore and see whatever we want to see. Of course, it's not so strong as to turn reality on its head, so anybody can still change whenever they want. That is, after all, why Christians can throw their Faith away, and unbelievers can become Christians too.

In the end, there is nothing special about me. I have been a Christian since childhood, yes, but I only began to learn what Christianity was about less than two years ago in October 2017. October last year, I began to post on this forum with this account. Not only have I continued to grow through that time, but I have also been offering everyone who gives me half a chance an opportunity to learn where I learned. I have been willing to teach others what I know, and to lead them to where I myself was taught. I have not denied it to anybody whom I thought might be willing to listen, certainly not you.

But I have never graduated from being a believer. I have never met or even seen the Lord Jesus. I have never seen angels or been to the Third Heaven. I have never met any of the saints that wrote the Scriptures or were written of in the Bible. I take everything in it on Faith, one, because it all makes sense, and, two, because it all always works out just as it says that it will.

That is what I call everyone to do: give the Bible an honest shot, and see where it takes you, before assuming the position of judge over it.

OkCornel:


So the church of today has many fiefdoms, denominations and many conflicting doctrines are the embodiment of saints already perfected abi?

You need to have a good look at yourself for trying to fit the Holy Spirit into a box.

So wait, the signs and wonders of men called by God after the Bible era e.g. say John G. Lake or Williams J. Seymour or Kathryn Khulman... they're all fake or what?

Nice to see you limiting the words of God and the abilities of His Spirit to the Bible era...

I don't believe that I said any such thing. I don't go to any church, because they all dispense with the Bible in one way or another, just as you yourself and your friends do.

The Church will not be fully perfected until all the saints who will be saved are brought in. That will happen during the Tribulation just before the Lord Jesus returns. But each believer is responsible no matter when they have lived to grow spiritually and attain to "perfection" or maturity. That is what the Bible and spiritual gifts was given for. Now that we have the Bible, all spiritual gifts are given to operate with it, not in place of it. So, the Church will be brought to fullness in number and in stature through the exercise of spiritual gifts that operate in consonance with the completed Bible now.

As for having a look at myself, I would say the same to you, but only for pretending to think that you know anything about the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure how many times I will have to say this to you: if anybody pretends to make claims or do things that the Bible disagrees with, they are a liar, no matter who they are or where you read about them.

Sure, whatever you say, man. I'm tired already.

budaatum:

Funny that these testimonies carry the weight of evidence for you. Are they not just the subjective experiences of the individuals? And why should Christ, who only currently exists in Spirit, look like any of the pictures of shown? Is that in itself not evidence of actually not having an encounter with Christ at all? Sounds like image making to me. The abandoning of the Spirit for the flesh.

Is it not [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A40&version=KJVwritten]written[/url] that inasmuch as ye have done to those whom thou seest.........

hmm....I fear for you oh buda.are you sure it ain't "testimonies" like this that will be used to oust you out of NL come 2020?
I advice you,Lord Reed and Jnr agree on what qualifies for testimonies/miracles now

jesusjnr:
A few weeks back I had a dream where Jesus had appeared to me briefly, and I had opened a thread to share concerning this experience. However this effort was seen a joke to many who took their turns in mocking it and laughed me to scorn, with some even suggested that I was mentally unstable, and that I go check myself.

thread link:
https://www.nairaland.com/5291314/jesus-appeared-me-first-time#80097542

But thankfully not everyone saw it as a joke, for as few as they were, there were yet those who gave me the benefit of a doubt as my bro @Okcornel whose efforts which I believe were Spirit-led has culminated in the opening of this thread which confirms the image of Jesus that I saw in my dream.

Now @Okcornel had brought some images of Jesus drawn by a gifted artist called Akiane Kramarik for me to confirm if it agreed with the image of Jesus I had seen in my dream.

And it's quite a long story, but to cut the story short, the second image he showed to me of Jesus which the artist called the prince of peace was a match of the face I saw in my dreams and also the look He had in His eyes.

It was really an overwhelming feeling to be able to confirm that, with the image someone else who had also seen Him in her dreams and visions had drawn of Him, and with that same exact gaze.

I never saw this confirmation coming for I had already moved on from that, but thanks to my bro @Okcornel who God has used to achieve this. And I would like him to share with us the details of what was actually going on his own side and inspired him to yet persist with this.

And also give us more information concerning the amazingly gifted artist Akiane Kramarik who drew this image of Jesus at the age of eight, whose remarkable story is also said to have led her atheists parents to Christ.

And anyone else who Jesus has appeared to should feel free to confirm if His image shown here corresponds with this or not, as my bro @enthronedbyGod had already done on the thread where this was confirmed.

#Jesusisreal

God bless.

Related links: https://www.nairaland.com/5353610/much-respect-all-those-put#81270061

https://www.nairaland.com/5170107/words-jesus-vs-bible/3#81326679

https://akiane.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiane

I have been seeing the face of Jesus especially when i worship at midnight. He looks like this :

Ihedinobi3:

If you teach math, I think you'll understand then, if I use the concept of axioms.

You cannot even begin to understand anything about a mathematical system, if you do not first accept certain axioms upon which to base your mathematical reasoning.

But axioms cannot be proven. They are fundamental assumptions that are either right or just not right. In the end, you have to simply decide whether it makes sense to believe or accept a set of axioms or not. But you must make that choice to even have a shot at getting started on a mathematical journey.

This is what makes a believer a believer. We have to decide first and foremost whether we are willing to base everything on Jesus Christ, God become Man to die on the Cross for our sins, or not. We have to decide if we trust Him enough to believe whatever He says. Then we have to make the decision to diligently learn everything that He has to say and teach and studiously and painstakingly apply it in every point to our lives.

This is not something that you can say that you can study and scrutinize and prove. Either it makes sense to us intuitively to believe in the Lord Jesus or it does not. As it is, all of Creation around us and our own consciences are all we need to figure out whether such Faith is sensible or not. If we choose not to believe in the Lord Jesus, we will end up believing something else entirely. But we will choose in one direction or another. No one can avoid that.

On the basis of what we choose to believe fundamentally, that is, the axioms of life that we choose to adopt, we start to make sense of life. Of course, life will produce a feedback to tell you whether your axioms were sensible or not. If they were, you will find encouragement and confirmation in your choice to believe, and you will go from "tentative" to "sure" in time. This really is what we call spiritual growth in Christianity. At spiritual maturity, the believer is quite certain and convinced of the Truth of what he believes. He is no longer easy to persuade in any other direction. This does not mean that he cannot fall away anymore. He can, if he stops working forward. There is no standing still in the spiritual business of life. Either you are growing more resolute and convinced of one way of life or you are growing more resolute and convinced of another.

The main difference between the Christian and others is that life's feedback tends to agree with everything that the Bible teaches. It doesn't for other belief systems including atheism. But, of course, each of us has the godlike ability to believe whatever we want, which comes packaged with the ability to persuade ourselves to ignore whatever we prefer to ignore and see whatever we want to see. Of course, it's not so strong as to turn reality on its head, so anybody can still change whenever they want. That is, after all, why Christians can throw their Faith away, and unbelievers can become Christians too.

In the end, there is nothing special about me. I have been a Christian since childhood, yes, but I only began to learn what Christianity was about less than two years ago in October 2017. October last year, I began to post on this forum with this account. Not only have I continued to grow through that time, but I have also been offering everyone who gives me half a chance an opportunity to learn where I learned. I have been willing to teach others what I know, and to lead them to where I myself was taught. I have not denied it to anybody whom I thought might be willing to listen, certainly not you.

But I have never graduated from being a believer. I have never met or even seen the Lord Jesus. I have never seen angels or been to the Third Heaven. I have never met any of the saints that wrote the Scriptures or were written of in the Bible. I take everything in it on Faith, one, because it all makes sense, and, two, because it all always works out just as it says that it will.

That is what I call everyone to do: give the Bible an honest shot, and see where it takes you, before assuming the position of judge over it.

I do perfectly understand you Ihe. Axioms are indeed necessary for those in preschool or those in class one, but an understanding of them apply in class 2 and thereon which is why we must and do show how they are true. The problem I encounter is in teaching axioms to students in the more advanced class. One might postulate that a+b, for instance, equals b+a, but eventually, we do and must show our students how and why we say so, otherwise, we merely create believers, and not the doers we hope to create. One cannot after all create Light by bread alone, and teaching axioms to the more advanced student is like not first examining to find out what they already know. I myself find this when I'm asked if I have accepted Christ into my life by preachers who have not even read their Bible from the beginning to the end. It is also why I am not one of your students, as you rightly point out. Why, pray tell, would you require my obedience to you when it is written that the Kingdom of God can be in me too? Can you not see how ridiculous I would sound if I were to require such obedience from you? Would it not sound very much like I were asking you to bow down and worship me? "Oh what arrogance my dear buda", would be the [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4%3A10&version=KJV]appropriate retort[/url] if I were you.

Please know that my journey has been different to yours which is why I likely take the stance I take. I was an atheist from birth and was rationally educated to know that proof and evidence is key with belief frowned upon without it. The axiom in rational education is "all things are created by words", which is why a scholarly educatiin is a prequisite and all other things follow on from there. For however one looks at things, in the beginning surely was the Word, which is indeed God, without which nothing was made.

Rational education however also taught me the folly of living by bread alone, which is seen in your extensive seeking for the Knowledge of God that you show here. For it is obvious that it includes a lot more that proceedeth out of the Mouth of God than the Bible, which is bread alone. Or can you honestly claim you only read the Bible?

Thankfully, God who created me the way I am knows what I am and never asked me to have faith or intuitively accept that which I have no evidence for. Its like I was given an exemption from preschool and was advanced to the higher classes, for as is written, those who seek will surely find. Our error, however, is in thinking that we alone have found, and that all others must therefore sit at our own feet and learn. Such as these fail to understand that they who must be first must needs be last for out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast strength been ordained. I mean, look at you, all but two years old! No! Look at me even, less than 9 months old, with strength to avenge both enemies and foes! Yet, as the Lord did [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=NIV]say[/url], "Love, buda! Or ye shall end up shirtless!"

It is not over the Bible that we must not judge, considering the additions and corrections and ommision, but over that which was written by the very breath of God. For the Lord never said "do or do not unto the Bible". What he rightly said was "Do unto these who thou see", or one shall incur a huge dental bill which is the wages or "Lord Lord".

I guess its difficult to enter back into the womb and be reborn. Yet, the Grace of the Lord God Almighty ministers to us all and those with ears will see.

Michellekabod2:
hmm....I fear for you oh buda.are you sure it ain't "testimonies" like this that will be used to oust you out of NL come 2020?
I advice you,Lord Reed and Jnr agree on what qualifies for testimonies/miracles now

I can assure you Michelle that come the day the will of my Lord will be done.

You, must fear not!

OkCornel:


Again, it's not about religion. Although I'm happy you brought up Buddhism as an example which I'll address later.


Walking with God entails following and obeying the TRUTH.

The truth is God and God is the truth.

Walking with God also entails Spirituality (which in this case is letting His Spirit guide you, and also nurture your spirit man)

Before I go further, I want to ask...how much of the Scriptures are you familiar with?

If you'll ask that, I really don't think you can get an answer that we can work with .... Assume you're talking to someone who doesn't even believe in the existence of Gox

budaatum:

No, Cornel, I had not read your account of Akiane, though, as you have seen in one of my posts, I did go and research her all the same. Now that I have read your post though, I can't but be reminded of the angel of the Lord taking Swedenborg on a journey through Heaven and Hell.

None of the Gospels were written by any of the Apostles of Jesus. None of them are even eyewitness accounts as shown by Luke who tells us clearly that his narrative is what he received from many before him and eyewitnesses and ministers, which is clearly, a second hand account.

But that's besides the point. The Word of God it is to those who place God at the forefront of their reading despite the additions, corrections and ommisions, for the devil too [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4%3A1-11&version=NKJV]wears[/url] Prada.

Thanks for the heads up on Swedenborg. I skimmed the surface and it looks interesting.

I'll dig into the details much later. Thanks.

judedwriter:


I have been seeing the face of Jesus especially when i worship at midnight. He looks like this :

You painted that?

I'd like to know more about the origin of that particular painting.