igbobuigbo:

Most Nigerians are pragmatic in doing what? In forging a SSN and getting a job thereafter? This is cyberspace means this is cyberspace.

What exactly is your question? Speak plainly rather than beating around the bush.

DapoBear:

What exactly is your question? Speak plainly rather than beating around the bush.

What are Nigerians pragmatic in doing? That was you characterization of them when I tasked you on the ease with which you talked about illegal immigrants breaking the law to obtain a SSN.

igbobuigbo:

What are Nigerians pragmatic in doing? That was you characterization of them when I tasked you on the ease with which you talked about illegal immigrants breaking the law to obtain a SSN.

Ah, they are pragmatic in obtaining fake SSNs and using them to work, despite it being technically illegal. I'm not necessarily advocating any of this stuff btw, but I'm just pointing out that people do what they have to do to survive.

And realistically, it isn't clear how much of a problem the US gov't truly has with this (again, so long as you aren't committing any felonies or major crimes here.)

DapoBear:

Ah, they are pragmatic in obtaining fake SSNs and using them to work, despite it being technically illegal. I'm not necessarily advocating any of this stuff btw, but I'm just pointing out that people do what they have to do to survive.

And realistically, it isn't clear how much of a problem the US gov't truly has with this (again, so long as you aren't committing any felonies or major crimes here.)

I see that you are given to making blatant over-generalizations, or near so. Did you do a fake SSN, and did anyone you know did?

igbobuigbo:

I see that you are given to making blatant over-generalizations, or near so. Did you do a fake SSN,  and did anyone you know did?

No real incentive for me to discuss my personal affairs online. You can draw your own conclusions, it should be pretty obvious, heh. Or even think I'm talking out of my @$$ if you like, no skin off my back.

DapoBear:

No real incentive for me to discuss my personal affairs online. You can draw your own conclusions, it should be pretty obvious, heh. Or even think I'm talking out of my @$$ if you like, no skin off my back.

And here you are online maligning all (or most, as you put it) Nigerians in the USA as fake SSN makers with your senseless over generalizations. I did remind you this was cyberspace, no?

igbobuigbo:

And here you are online maligning all Nigerians in the USA as fake SSN makers with your senseless over generalizations. I did remind you this was cyber, no?

Who said ALL Nigerians in the usa do this? A lot of them do not. But a lot also do. You've got to learn to read a bit better, this is the second time you've completely misread one of my posts.

And if you have read and still not understood, simply ask yourself, "Is this person likely to be maligning and rubbishing a group of people that includes HIMSELF?"

DapoBear:

Who said ALL Nigerians in the usa do this? A lot of them do not. But a lot also do. You've got to learn to read a bit better, this is the second time you've completely misread one of my posts.

And if you have read and still not understood, simply ask yourself, "Is this person likely to be maligning and rubbishing a group of people that includes HIMSELF?"

You said most and I did note that. Pls reread my last post. You do not have an incentive to talk about yourself in light of a fake SSN forger, but you do have to talk so about most (as you put it) other Nigerians. Now, who are those you know constituting the most? You should be able to sustain your claim.

igbobuigbo:

You said most and I did note that. Pls reread my last post. You do not have an incentive to talk about yourself in light of a fake SSN forger, but you do have to talk so about most (as you put it) other Nigerians. Now, who are those you know constituting the most? You should be able to sustain your claim.

Err, no. You've again misread things. I am not claiming that ALL Nigerians in the US are "fake SSN forger" (this is YOUR term, not mine.) Many immigrate here legally through the lottery, educational visas, etc. But there are a goodly number who immigrate illegally. I have no clue what the statistics are, but I think many would agree that it is a large fraction. And of this large fraction, another large fraction obtains papers one way or another. If you choose to interpret this as "fake SSN forger" (again, your term, not mine), it is up to you.

Those are the facts on the ground, though. Now, if your criticism is that I don't know how big this fraction is, then I'll concede that specific point (but only that point, no other.)

Dapobear,

You said, ''like most Nigerians, I'm pragmatic''
I asked, ''pragmatic in doing what''
You responded, ''pragmatic in obtaining fake SSNs and using them to work.''

Are these not the summary of the facts?

Well, rather than cherrypicking, let's look at the comments that preceded it:

DapoBear:

Yep. Keep your nose clean, don't break any laws (well, you'll kind of have to break laws a bit to get a SSN and a job), pay your taxes, etc and you'll be fine here.

Your response:

igbobuigbo:

Spoken like a ''true'' Nigerian. Remember this is cyberspace.

Mine:

DapoBear:

Agreed with the first statement; like most Nigerians I'm pragmatic

Not sure of the significance of your second statement.

So it appears you interpreted the above to mean that (A) I'm a ssn forger myself (B) I claim that most Nigerians are ssn forgers. Correct me if I am wrong in this guess about how you interpreted things. Hopefully you can see how the thrust might be different.

How is it a black sunday? they were breaking the law, they got caught

DapoBear:

Well, rather than cherrypicking, let's look at the comments that preceded it:
Your response:
Mine:So it appears you interpreted the above to mean that (A) I'm a ssn forger myself (B) I claim that most Nigerians are ssn forgers. Correct me if I am wrong in this guess about how you interpreted things. Hopefully you can see how the thrust might be different.

Now you are the one beating about the bush and going round in circles. Dude, stop your penchant to generalize.

aisha2:

How is it a black sunday? they were breaking the law, they got caught

Eh, some of these people have families, kids in school, wives, etc. It isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Imagine a man being deported and then being separated from his kids who are citizens, for example. Would be nice if we could just say, "he broke the law, screw him", but it affects more than just him.

igbobuigbo:

Now you are the one beating about the bush and going round in circles. Dude, stop your penchant to generalize.

I shall stop generalizing and assuming that all here can read and comprehend without everything being broken down for them. Obviously that was not a good assumption to make.

^^^

True. be careful what you put up here.

DapoBear:

Eh, some of these people have families, kids in school, wives, etc. It isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Imagine a man being deported and then being separated from his kids who are citizens, for example. Would be nice if we could just say, "he broke the law, screw him", but it affects more than just him.

Excuse it all you want but truth is there is no excuse for breaking the laws. Simple. Am poor does not give me the excuse to steal, my boss ill treats me does not mean i should steal or change figures, a crime is a crime, the sooner we stop excusing it the faster we will sit up and build good and long lasting legacies. When someone steals a biro we excuse it tommorrow he will steal 10 billion, case study Ibori from stealing grocires to cement and building materials to stealing billions of dollors, one crime leads to a bigger and worse crime. My take,am entitled to it

aisha2:

Excuse it all you want but truth is there is no excuse for breaking the laws. Simple. Am poor does not give me the excuse to steal, my boss ill treats me does not mean i should steal or change figures, a crime is a crime, the sooner we stop excusing it the faster we will sit up and build good and long lasting legacies. When someone steals a biro we excuse it tommorrow he will steal 10 billion, case study Ibori from stealing grocires to cement and building materials to stealing billions of dollors, one crime leads to a bigger and worse crime. My take,am entitled to it

Eh, Western world steals billions from Africa. They send crappy white engineers to work for these oil companies, who are not even the best in their companies (seriously, I talked to one of these white dudes working for Shell when I was in Port Harcourt, he was senile, lazy and incompetent.)

If you are going to steal from Nigeria and Africa more generally, don't whine and complain if Nigerians steal back.

DapoBear:

Eh, Western world steals billions from Africa. They send crappy white engineers to work for these oil companies, who are not even the best in their companies (seriously, I talked to one of these white dudes working for Shell when I was in Port Harcourt, he was senile, lazy and incompetent.)

If you are going to steal from Nigeria and Africa more generally, don't whine and complain if Nigerians steal back.

OK this your take is a bit pathetic to be honest. I'm sure you know stealing is wrong and nothing justifies it.

Eh, whatever. I'm not looking for external justification or validation here on Nairaland. If you no gree, so be it. It is what it is.

I'm not even claiming that stealing is not wrong. But a thief cannot complain that someone is robbing him, really; that is hypocrisy.

DapoBear:

Eh, whatever. I'm not looking for external justification or validation here on Nairaland. If you no gree, so be it. It is what it is.

I'm not even claiming that stealing is not wrong. But a thief cannot complain that someone is robbing him, really; that is hypocrisy.

So if i despoil your daughter then it's basically right to despoil ma own daughter?
Why do we have courts?

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any illegal immigration. Everyone would just stay in their own country, happy. However, that is not the case. And given that the UK in particular had a direct hand in making Nigeria a cesspool, what right do they have to complain about illegal immigration from Nigeria?

Also, your court analogy doesn't quite capture the dynamic, imo.

dapobear , your arguments are the same some nigerians used to justify 419 in the past - they called it repatriation for slavery -etc . because of this Nigerians are renowned all over the world as fraudsters . further - these so called repatriates now do the same to their fellow nigerians via atm scams

no justification for bad behavior. you get caught - grin and bear it. people should also consider the consequences before they raise families as illegals. their actions are also a slap to those people who are doing the right thing - and worst of all, it is these very actions that make it so difficult for honest nigerians to get visas to places like the uk.

oyb: I think this is a very delicate issue. So certain analogies and comparisons that one might make aren't quite the way to understand the rightness/wrongness of this. In particular, a comparison between 419 is not quite apt, imo.

I fully concede that immigrating illegally is wrong. But there are certain wrongs that you almost cannot blame someone for doing. Lying is wrong, correct? But what if someone will kill or maim you if you tell the truth? What if telling a lie is the only way you save your life? Will you then blame someone for telling a lie to prevent themselves or their family from suffering physical harm? Yes, technically they are wrong, but it is something almost everyone would do.

I'm not saying the above example is a perfect analogy. But I think it is likely to more accurately capture what is going on than comparing to 419.

Anyway, hopefully you see it is a nuanced issue. People don't immigrate illegally to become billionaires or to get ill-begotten wealth that requires no work. Oftentimes the hardest-working people in a country are illegal immigrants. They are there to work very hard and support their family, to give future generations of their family a better chance at life.

If such a person obeys all other laws of the land, works hard and contributes positively to society, shouldn't we balance the good they are doing against the small evil of immigrating illegally?

This Dapo dude has no idea what he is talking about!

Since the Patriot act was enacted in 2001, 50 or any other law enforcement can ask for proof of status if they wish and once you're found to be illegal, they're supposed to hold you for ICE.

Why is your dad using an illegal Mexican to mow the lawn when you are there? You can't live at home for nothing now

ogajim:

This Dapo dude has no idea what he is talking about!

Since the Patriot act was enacted in 2001, 50 or any other law enforcement can ask for proof of status if they wish and once you're found to be illegal, they're supposed to hold you for ICE.

Can you provide a reference for this claim? I read through this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act,_Title_IV) and googled and didn't find anything saying that. But I could be mistaken, so would love to see a specific reference.

Why is your dad using an illegal Mexican to mow the lawn when you are there? You can't live at home for nothing now

Who said I still live in their home? Haven't lived there since I started college, been paying my own bills for a long time now 

Dapo,


There are installations you can't step into now if you're not a citizen i.e Ft Mead and Langley in this area. Upon entering those kinds of facilities, they will need your ID and once they determine you're illegal, they are required to hold you until ICE come for the pickup.
Some jurisdictions now make it their duty to verify IM status, one might not have to commit a crime before they get him/her is the point I am trying to make dude.

Some illegal people deserve what they get sometimes because most of them waste their time instead of solidifying their IM status.

^-- Ft Meade and Langley AFB are US Military installations, though. You getting in trouble wandering there is likely to occur for anyone who is foreign, even with valid status (temporary/student visa, for example) or not.

Regarding jurisdictions. . .I still think in 95% of locations here in the US, you are safe. This is not really a country that is out to get you, imo.

Finally, I agree with your sentiment that getting proper status should be any undocumented person's first priority. And it is surprisingly easy to get legalized, this country again makes it very easy to do so (again, assuming you've not committed any crimes.)

Good you get my point, I meant Langley as in the three letter agency

Some of our people put themselves in that situation when they begin to "enjoy" instead of status first, the last two trips I've made to Naija (F Dora if she doesn't like me calling NAIJA), there was at least one of our countryman being deported.

God help us all.

DapoBear:

Ah, they are pragmatic in obtaining fake SSNs and using them to work, despite it being technically illegal. I'm not necessarily advocating any of this stuff btw, but I'm just pointing out that people do what they have to do to survive.

And realistically, it isn't clear how much of a problem the US gov't truly has with this (again, so long as you aren't committing any felonies or major crimes here.)

what state do you live in?

I agree that most illegal immigrants have to avoid the police in order not to get caught. But i'm sure if the police gets a tip from a citizen about some illegal immigrants hideout, of course they will go searching. even here in the US
but the situation does seem safer in the US than in the UK and Europe in general though. I wonder why

^-- I live in California, but grew up in the east coast and south.

[size=14pt]"The immigration team searched all seven floors and rounded up 14 suspects in the teddy bear department."[/size]

I can only imagine the embarrassment of the deportees when they tell folks back in Nigeria that they were finally corralled by La Migra in the teddy bear department, of all places.