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Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich - Family (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Belafonte(m): 10:19am On Jun 22, 2020
Dande55:

This is very cool. Never marry a man with less than 20m cash/investment

I’m intrigued when I read comments like this. So, if I have 20m in cash & investments, what value is the woman bringing to the table?

Do note, that I don’t think I’ll be ready for marriage if I don’t have 50m in cash & investments, but whoever I’m marrying has to be worth that 50m

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Belafonte(m): 10:23am On Jun 22, 2020
Only men with low self esteem think they have to have a certain amount of money to be deserving of marriage.

As for me, the more zeros I add to my bank balance, the higher the likelihood of never marrying.

24 Likes 2 Shares

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Dande55: 11:30am On Jun 22, 2020
Belafonte:


I’m intrigued when I read comments like this. So, if I have 20m in cash & investments, what value is the woman bringing to the table?

Do note, that I don’t think I’ll be ready for marriage if I don’t have 50m in cash & investments, but whoever I’m marrying has to be worth that 50m
Whatever you wish my dear.
If you want a woman that's as equal as you are and you somehow got to find one, that's good for you.

What I'm saying is that every woman should avoid the mistake of saying he has vision, so many poor people today had/have visions.

12 Likes 1 Share

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Dande55: 11:32am On Jun 22, 2020
Belafonte:
Only men with low self esteem think they have to have a certain amount of money to be deserving of marriage.

As for me, the more zeros I add to my bank balance, the more the likelihood of never marrying.

So, you will marry cos you want a woman that's gonna uplift you from poverty state or that will be there to comfort you when you don't have the money? You see why you men are very selfish yet, you always get to turn the table around and some gullible women will believe so.

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Biglittlelois(f): 12:02pm On Jun 22, 2020
Facts;

Money rules the world, without money you are nothing.

But the desperate love of money is the root of all evil, note that I said "desperate" because one can still love money and get it legitimately.

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Belafonte(m): 12:09pm On Jun 22, 2020
Dande55:

So, you will marry cos you want a woman that's gonna uplift you from poverty state or that will be there to comfort you when you don't have the money? You see why you men are very selfish yet, you always get to turn the table around and some gullible women will believe so.

Stop arguing with yourself.

I want a woman who’s going to appreciate me for who I am, not what I can provide. If women would rather marry rich men, I really have no problem with that tbh. Just don’t come and be forming love, knowing I would disgust you if I were broke

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Belafonte(m): 12:11pm On Jun 22, 2020
Dande55:

Whatever you wish my dear.
If you want a woman that's as equal as you are and you somehow got to find one, that's good for you.

What I'm saying is that every woman should avoid the mistake of saying he has vision, so many poor people today had/have visions.

She doesn’t even have to have a dime. I’m not concerned about how much she makes. There are other things that matter to me in a wife

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by DontBullshitMe: 12:24pm On Jun 22, 2020
Interesting.
Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by pmoye(m): 12:31pm On Jun 22, 2020
This is the best comment I have read on this thread.

I deliberately decided not to emphasize the income the wife brings to the table because the worth of a lady one wants to marry should be supremely above money. I like the way you said that she has to be worth that 50m.

I personally cannot marry or bring children into this world if I am not supremely capable to give them a good life. Not just life, a good one. As much as everyone is complaining about life being difficult in Nigeria, some people and their children will never understand what that means, simply because the parents have enough and more than enough. What money is required to live a good life, the man should provide, which is the easier part of the job. The harder aspect is the role of the wife and mother who is literally the superintendent of the home whether or not she has an income.

Brilliant contribution from you sir!

Belafonte:


I’m intrigued when I read comments like this. So, if I have 20m in cash & investments, what value is the woman bringing to the table?

Do note, that I don’t think I’ll be ready for marriage if I don’t have 50m in cash & investments, but whoever I’m marrying has to be worth that 50m

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by pmoye(m): 12:34pm On Jun 22, 2020
Belafonte:


She doesn’t even have to have a dime. I’m not concerned about how much she makes. There are other things that matter to me in a wife

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by bukatyne(f): 1:07pm On Jun 22, 2020
cheesy

Thread is gradually going to the traditional roles of a man and a woman.

Like Belafonte said, the woman you are bringing N50m to meet has to be worth it and not in monetary terms.

It is in those qualities women think is slavery or 'promoting' patriarchy today.

@Belafonte what qualities are you looking for in a wife that would worth N50m?

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by cococandy(f): 1:57pm On Jun 22, 2020
So nobody should marry again?
What percentage of Nigerians are rich and how much of this percentage are young men ready to get married?

Maybe you mean to say “don’t get married to someone who is not able to care for himself and sustain a family”. seeing as he will probably be looking for a woman to do all the ‘wifely’ things for him.
But being rich is not a requirement for that.

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by cococandy(f): 2:01pm On Jun 22, 2020
Belafonte:


I’m intrigued when I read comments like this. So, if I have 20m in cash & investments, what value is the woman bringing to the table?

Do note, that I don’t think I’ll be ready for marriage if I don’t have 50m in cash & investments, but whoever I’m marrying has to be worth that 50m

The answer to your first question lies in your second paragraph. Whatever makes her worth 50m to you is the value she’s bringing to the table.

Remember, this proverbial table is the base where everything including but not limited to money is placed.

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by cococandy(f): 2:02pm On Jun 22, 2020
Dande55:

This is very cool. Never marry a man with less than 20m cash/investment

You people don’t want Nigerian boys to marry grin

2 Likes

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by pocohantas(f): 2:14pm On Jun 22, 2020
Lol. Financially independent should be the word. Not rich!

I pity all these women playing good girls (online). Men keep raising the bar higher. They don’t want broke girls, they don’t want non-working women and they applaud themselves for it. They even demonized and trivialized the input of a housewife.

Yet when a woman wants a working man, they bark at you and you cower in fear. You think these niggas give two fcks about you?

Systematically you dance to their tunes till they hold all the aces. Continue being resident good girls o. Na NL praises go end am.

Good girls are going to shop in Igando market under sun and rain, chooking leg inside potor potor. Baby girls dey pick groceries from Ebeano. Well done ehn. grin

29 Likes 11 Shares

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Mariangeles(f): 2:21pm On Jun 22, 2020
pocohantas:
Lol. Financially independent should be the word. Not rich!

I pity all these women playing good girls (online). Men keep raising the bar higher. They don’t want broke girls, they don’t want non-working women and they applaud themselves for it. They even demonized and trivialized the input of a housewife.

Yet when a woman wants a working man, they bark at you and you cower in fear. You think these niggas give two fcks about you?

Systematically you dance to their tunes till they hold all the aces. Continue being resident good girls o. Na NL praises go end am.

Good girls are going to shop in Igando market under sun and rain, chooking leg inside potor potor. Baby girls dey pick groceries from Ebeano. Well done ehn. grin
grin grin grin
Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by cococandy(f): 2:29pm On Jun 22, 2020
grin Why does the bold sound funny.

True I like men for the confidence they have in demanding what they want even when they do not deserve it. Gold diggers, leeches, broke ass etc are slangs developed for women to broke shame us. Whereas asking a man to be financially independent before settling down makes the woman a bad person for requiring that.

Women are always striving to be “perfect” and it’s never enough because of the endless and confusing list of what makes a good woman. Must not be a gold digger, must not be dependent, must also always be available when the man requires it or she’s to blame for the maid taking over her home. It’s tiring.

Personally I believe in sharing finances because it’s rare to see a man that’s a 100% provider. But only if that sharing of finances translates to sharing other aspects of what’s required in running the home. I require it.
Otherwise the woman is contributing way more than the man.


pocohantas:
Lol. Financially independent should be the word. Not rich!

I pity all these women playing good girls (online). Men keep raising the bar higher. They don’t want broke girls, they don’t want non-working women and they applaud themselves for it. They even demonized and trivialized the input of a housewife.

Yet when a woman wants a working man, they bark at you and you cower in fear. You think these niggas give two fcks about you?

Systematically you dance to their tunes till they hold all the aces. Continue being resident good girls o. Na NL praises go end am.

Good girls are going to shop in Igando market under sun and rain, chooking leg inside potor potor. Baby girls dey pick groceries from Ebeano. Well done ehn. grin

8 Likes 2 Shares

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by pocohantas(f): 2:42pm On Jun 22, 2020
cococandy:
grin Why does the bold sound funny.

True I like men for the confidence they have in demanding what they want even when they do not deserve it. Gold diggers, leeches, broke ass etc are slangs developed for women to broke shame us. Whereas asking a man to be financially independent before settling down makes the woman a bad person for requiring that.

Women are always striving to be “perfect” and it’s never enough because of the endless and confusing list of what makes a good woman. Must not be a gold digger, must not be dependent, must also always be available when the man requires it or she’s to blame for the maid taking over her home. It’s tiring.

Personally I believe in sharing finances because it’s rare to see a man that’s a 100% provider. But only if that sharing of finances translates to sharing other aspects of what’s required in running the home. I require it.
Otherwise the woman is contributing way more than the man.

It is the truth o, forget that it is funny.

Some ladies are always trying to be different- perfectly different. I am not different, I am even worse. I am not a good girl please. I am ME. I LOVE money and I love comfort. We will meet each other halfway and take it from there.

I am not interested in any other model and would never be.

Sharing finances? Perfect
House chores? I am really not fixated on this, as I can clean a whole village alone. It will even take me time to notice no one is helping. He should sha be appreciative and supportive.

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Nobody: 2:48pm On Jun 22, 2020
Nnaabros:
This one has snapped.

What you don't know is that men will always get what they want. But you women, hardly. You're always going to be at the losing end with this mindset.

Don't ever think you're punishing guys, our options are limitless. But you, you may have to wait out your life.
What exactly is your point?How is 'wanting' to marry a financially stable person a punishment?

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by annayawchee: 2:50pm On Jun 22, 2020
So why did your mom married your broke dad?

Who will marry your broke brothers/sisters?

Who will marry your broke ass?

Your sense entitlement is so laughable and pitiful.

What will you add to the life of the already made man aside your battered and smelly puna?

Better go and hustle your way out of poverty..

4 Likes

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Magnoliaa(f): 2:59pm On Jun 22, 2020
bukatyne:
Money has wings.

Not really. That would mean all your hustling, investments, businesses is a gamble. Why work hard when you don't know if it'll be lost. Money doesn't have a mind/wings. You control it.

The person who is rich today can become poor/broke tomorrow and vice versa.

Rather than this skeletal approach, why don't we dig to see what's wrong with the Nigerian family system and correct it?

How many men are rich in Nigeria?

What happens if all that made a man 'the head' was money and he loses it ten years into the marriage; should his wife get a divorce?


So like this is just 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 posts addressed to women concerning marrying a rich man. We've always talked about other ideals for a marriage at other times - don't diminish/deflect the course of the topic.

If I read well, too, the op DID NOT condemn other things that make a marriage work or not. It's just highlighting one of the things that make/mar a marriage.

Divorce, loosing money... has nothing to do with the advice?

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by pmoye(m): 3:05pm On Jun 22, 2020
Well said.
There is no amount of feminism that will make me ever think that a man that is not financially (also emotionally) capable should go ahead and get married. I went ahead to reference some income grades in the original post from a very practical point of view. Many Nigerians contract marriage purely based on hope, what you would call the best case scenario. Unfortunately, worst case scenarios seem to be prevalent in our generation, and before you know it the man that sounded so self-sufficient and cocky at the beginning is reduced to nothing more than a sack of ego and anger for inability to take care of their families. These are real situations. What is worse still is the fact that such men, even when the wives are the ones bringing in the larger share of the income, keep demanding for an impossible amount of respect from the woman.

And with respect to sharing finances, as I mentioned in the original post, then such husbands must as a minimum also share respect with the wife. What historically made man the head and lord of the house was because man was literally the source of most things in his house, while women devoted themselves exclusively to take care of the man and the entire household. It baffles me that our generation appears to increasingly trivialize this enormous responsibility that is already on the woman. I could never marry a full house wife and think for a second that I was picking the larger share of responsibilities.

Like you have perfectly captured, roles of men and women at home are being culturally revised. Increasing number of men and women now believe that the woman should join in becoming breadwinner. That is literally sharing the man's burden with women. Unfortunately the historical burden of women in the home is not been as equally shared with men. This is something the society should be ready to discuss otherwise we will end up with lady folks who are extremely bitter, and justifiably so, because of the way the society treats them.

cococandy:
grin Why does the bold sound funny.

True I like men for the confidence they have in demanding what they want even when they do not deserve it. Gold diggers, leeches, broke ass etc are slangs developed for women to broke shame us. Whereas asking a man to be financially independent before settling down makes the woman a bad person for requiring that.

Women are always striving to be “perfect” and it’s never enough because of the endless and confusing list of what makes a good woman. Must not be a gold digger, must not be dependent, must also always be available when the man requires it or she’s to blame for the maid taking over her home. It’s tiring.

Personally I believe in sharing finances because it’s rare to see a man that’s a 100% provider. But only if that sharing of finances translates to sharing other aspects of what’s required in running the home. I require it.
Otherwise the woman is contributing way more than the man.


10 Likes 1 Share

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by pmoye(m): 3:19pm On Jun 22, 2020
90k monthly may be okay for you as a single person, even then it depends on where you live in Nigeria. But as a married man that is meant to cater for his household it is indeed grossly insufficient. In case you haven't realized it, it is not normal to be used to suffering. I know some of you try to use religious thinking to make you guys happy in poverty, but it is not normal... Start thinking properly. It is actually possible to plan your way into a decent living condition, and no you don't need the fictitious Nollywood-kind 'helper' to bail your ass out of poverty.

If each of you spends just N1,000 a day on food (roughly N335/meal), without having children that is already N60,000 in a month. On 90k monthly it is even impossible to own your own house; if your house rent is a just 300k per year, that is 25k in a month.

Now you have just 5k left, and you haven't even accounted for transportation, or for medical care, health insurance, savings, giving parents token...etc. What of sending children to school that's very likely going to be a private school? You perhaps can get a decent school for about 30k per term (not sure)... Where will that come from? What about clothing? What about family outing from time to time? The list is certainly endless, these are just few of the apparent expenses.

Also, because you're Nigerian, the moment you get married everyone including yourself expects your wife to put to bed within a year. What happens when a baby comes on your 90k monthly salary? The baby will literally take more than what you and your wife consume daily. What of antenatal care, or you will decide to put your pregnant wife on agbo? What if her delivery is complicated and you need to contract a CS? How much do you think a CS is? In a decent hospital you may spend about 150k on that. At that rate and within just 1.5 years of marrying you are already broke and you are likely going to be for a very long time. And if your wife is to be established in her business or trade by you, how much exactly will you be able to save up on a 90k salary? Will you be able to save 100k in 5 years? I doubt that.

This is just an illustration using 90k; in reality many of the men I am targeting earn far below that. Some 30k and yet they want to marry on that. I have different examples of married men earning way below that. I know a couple, the husband earns about 15k and the wife about 18k. They have 4 children. Another couple has 6 children on similar salary... Even if you want to help people like that, where exactly will you begin? What kind of future do you think children sired in such a background will have? These things are supposed to be self-apparent, unfortunately common sense isn't always common after all.

You can go ahead and abuse me, but a decent life is not cheap. And feeding well, having health insurance coverage, and having savings are the basic minimum, it's only being used to poverty and its religious correlate called contentment that makes you believe a family can survive on 90k monthly. We shouldn't be copying poverty examples around us.

As a man simply lead a purposeful life. Do your calculations well. If you need to change jobs, or to have a side hustle please do it so you can have enough and more before you try to get married. It isn't fear on the children we bring to this world whose best skill these days is to drop their account number everywhere cyberbegging.


Acidosis:
Your write-up is useless if you can't define "rich". And since you people always claim that everything is relative, who are you to classify a 90k salary earner as poor? What if the 90k meets his needs in his environment? He's still poor and shouldn't marry because you said so or because every married man must live in Lagos or Abuja?

15 Likes 1 Share

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Mariangeles(f): 3:20pm On Jun 22, 2020
pmoye:
Well said.
There is no amount of feminism that will make me ever think that a man that is not financially (also emotionally) capable should go ahead and get married. I went ahead to reference some income grades in the original post from a very practical point of view. Many Nigerians contract marriage purely based on hope, what you would call the best case scenario. Unfortunately, worst case scenarios seem to be prevalent in our generation, and before you know it the man that sounded so self-sufficient and cocky at the beginning is reduced to nothing more than a sack of ego and anger for inability to take care of their families. These are real situations. What is worse still is the fact that such men, even when the wives are the ones bringing in the larger share of the income, keep demanding for an impossible amount of respect from the woman.

And with respect to sharing finances, as I mentioned in the original post, then such husbands must as a minimum also share respect with the wife. What historically made man the head and lord of the house was because man was literally the source of most things in his house, while women devoted themselves exclusively to take care of the man and the entire household. It baffles me that our generation appears to increasingly trivialize this enormous responsibility that is already on the woman. I could never marry a full house wife and think for a second that I was picking the larger share of responsibilities.

Like you have perfectly captured, roles of men and women at home are being culturally revised. Increasing number of men and women now believe that the woman should join in becoming breadwinner. That is literally sharing the man's burden with women. Unfortunately the historical burden of women in the home is not been as equally shared with men. This is something the society should be ready to discuss otherwise we will end up with lady folks who are extremely bitter, and justifiably so, because of the way the society treats them.


The most annoying!

Ybaby come oooo grin

5 Likes

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Klass99(f): 3:26pm On Jun 22, 2020
.

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by pmoye(m): 3:37pm On Jun 22, 2020
I think that's the most accurate expression (in bold) for the situation...Because if dem never take marriage swear for us in Africa why we too dey rush enter project (marriage) when we no fit. Typical African parents will be asking for grandchildren when you never even get job.

Klass99:


Until people decide by themselves and for themselves, to give up groupthink and herd mentality, they will continue to believe that being single is worse than the havoc Covid-19 has wrecked and continues to wreck.

Personally, I don't think it is so much about the society, it is about poor and limiting mindsets, where people believe that without marriage or kids, they cannot have or live, a full, vibrant, responsible, happy and good life.

Until people change their own limiting mindsets about certain things, they will suffer. I am not against marriage or kids, for people who sincerely desire one or both. I can't help but ask ''Dem use marriage swear for us in Africa? grin'' grin This is one of the most hilarious phrases I have seen on NL and one of my favourties too, because it resonates well with me. Dem no use am swear for me sha!

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by LordKO(m): 3:38pm On Jun 22, 2020
Belafonte:


Stop arguing with yourself.

I want a woman who’s going to appreciate me for who I am, not what I can provide. If women would rather marrying rich men, I really have no problem with that tbh. Just don’t come and be forming love, knowing I would disgust you if I were broke


"Just don’t come and be forming love, knowing I would disgust you if I were broke" succinctly worded @Belafonte - unfortunately that's the hallmark of perfidious (expedient) people. 

Meanwhile, every sane person knows the importance of money and doesn't need crass and expedient elements to remind them of it - if as a person you need someone to remind you of the importance of success, you simply lack grit and common sense. Sane people don't allow money to define them, even when they've it in abundance. Of course, it's only a foolish and spineless man who'll allow a crass and expedient woman to share his crown with him. 

To every ethically sound (good) woman here or out there, don't allow any small-minded person to guilt trip you to immorality, because sane wealthy men marry ethically sound women every other day. As a matter of fact, true well-to-do people never base their respect, and goodness in general, for others on money/material things. Money remains a means to an end, but never an end itself, and it remains one of the easiest things to acquire, all things being equal. Those who do not have it today, remain steadfast and be content without being complacent, and don't allow anyone to abuse you.

If as an ethically sound woman here someone bullies you because of money they barely have directly or indirectly, if you can't defend yourself, direct the person and their backer(s) to me let me show them that the true haves don't shout unnecessarily like the crass and expedient have-nots and quasi-haves.

Success consciousness is the goal, say no to both materialism and parasitism - principle/spiritual values over expediency any day and anywhere. Of course, perfection is still of the creator of the world.

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Alexaonfleek: 4:13pm On Jun 22, 2020
annayawchee:
So why did your mom married your broke dad?

Who will marry your broke brothers/sisters?

Who will marry your broke ass?

Your sense entitlement is so laughable and pitiful.

What will you add to the life of the already made man aside your battered and smelly puna?

Better go and hustle your way out of poverty..
cheesy grin
Na their way be that.
When they have nothing to say,they will bring in the family members that are not on NL.
Since you have decided to bring in family members,lets go on.

Most dads then,were stable at least to marry.
Most importantly,most dads then had a sense of responsibility and knew from birth that they had to provide for the mums and kids.
Even parents would never allow their daughters settle for a man who cannot provide.

So honey,as long as we have good characters,we will surely see financially stable men to marry our broke asses tongue

19 Likes 3 Shares

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Belafonte(m): 4:55pm On Jun 22, 2020
Dande55:

So, you will marry cos you want a woman that's gonna uplift you from poverty state or that will be there to comfort you when you don't have the money? You see why you men are very selfish yet, you always get to turn the table around and some gullible women will believe so.

May I ask what is wrong in my wife comforting me when I don’t have money? Is she only supposed to enjoy the comforts my money will provide, but have no sympathy for me when my efforts to make money don’t quite pan out as I hoped?

I think that’s selfish from the woman’s point of view, if you ask me. But I’m not able be correction. Perhaps, you could enlighten me on why my sympathy to my failings isn’t a role my wife should play. Thanks

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Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by Romangalactic(m): 4:57pm On Jun 22, 2020
Belafonte:


Stop arguing with yourself.

I want a woman who’s going to appreciate me for who I am, not what I can provide. If women would rather marry rich men, I really have no problem with that tbh. Just don’t come and be forming love, knowing I would disgust you if I were broke
This is the mentality I have always had. I prefer it when a woman admits she likes money and is a golddigger, makes for better trusting in our relationship.

6 Likes

Re: Nigerian Ladies Stop Marrying Men That Are Not Already Rich by angelfallz(m): 4:57pm On Jun 22, 2020
pocohantas:
Lol. Financially independent should be the word. Not rich!

I pity all these women playing good girls (online). Men keep raising the bar higher. They don’t want broke girls, they don’t want non-working women and they applaud themselves for it. They even demonized and trivialized the input of a housewife.

Yet when a woman wants a working man, they bark at you and you cower in fear. You think these niggas give two fcks about you?

Systematically you dance to their tunes till they hold all the aces. Continue being resident good girls o. Na NL praises go end am.

Good girls are going to shop in Igando market under sun and rain, chooking leg inside potor potor. Baby girls dey pick groceries from Ebeano. Well done ehn. grin

Only men that don't know the value of a housewife, would trivialize that role.

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