Meanwhile, it just came to my remembrance to ask you this, ebos:

This Mary-prayer issue, abeg you fit help non-Catholics understand a small point? Here:

    WHERE in the Bible did Jesus or any of the apostles EVER ask anyone to pray TO Mary? WHERE did they EVER do that?


Thank you plenty-plenty!

Wordsmith:

That last remark doesn't make sense. How does you claiming the Prostentant church to be "dodgy" correlate with what she said? She merely said and has continually emphasised that the debate/discussion revolve round the Bible; the Word as the reference point and final authority for the two oppossing sides.

Erudite.

The highlighted part is what they keep running from.

newness99:

What r u talking about? So the millions of catholics around d world typically see others as rude, silly and offensive, because one catholic (me) makes a comment about a post that is truly aggravating? Na wah for you o.

If you were the only Catholic, I wouldn't even take notice of you. But that you made a remark typical of the Catholic hue and cry when Protestants address issues from your quarters was reason enough for me to call your singular attention to what you inadvertently "missed".

newness99:

As per the Pope saying oda churches r not christians? Did u watch/hear the whole message, or u just heard that part and turned off your tv?

But newness99, take style go through my rejoinders. I've already offered a link for easy access to those who might be wondering about the "context" of the Pope's affirmations. See it here: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-74061.192.html#msg1438367)

newness99:

You need 2 learn 2 give people d benefit of doubt and hear them out, instead of taking things out of context and analyzing, solely on d bit u heard.  No prob sha, one love, one God. I'm out.

I think were asking the very same thing from either sides of the fence. Could Catholics be more accommodating enough to hear Protestants out instead of 'analyzing' our convictions out of context?

n.oxide:

okay, i bumped into this thread and i think i'll like to make a few contributions

about the idolatory thing, why do the Roman catholics still erect statues (or efigies) in the premises of their place of worship a.k.a church compund, eh?. . . .

I-man n pilgrim.1 what can we say about this

Well, pilgrim.1 likes to take it in stages. I believe we might have occasion to come back to that point when we get there.

@Pilgrim,

“Sorry, Catholic did not say worship.” Hum! This is just the beginning, there will be sorrier to say to Catholics.

Now, Pilgrim, the reasons you gave for concealing the name of your church simply shows that all is not well with your denomination. Your fear of launching attacks against your Church means there are some hidden things your church has perpetrated. There is nothing you raised against Catholic that has not been addressed – quoting the bible verses. From Infant baptism, Images, Mary etc. You have not presented any bible portion(s) that condemn Infant baptism etc. You talk of what is written by the apostles without applying what Mary said that All Generations Shall Call me blessed. Was Mary not among the disciples? Why then you have refused to apply her teaching?

However, you have just confirmed my comments on Pray or Ask. Christ or His Apostles applied the two words based on what message they tried to pass to the people concerning prayer to God. Let me believe that Pilgrim has not used the phrase ‘I pray you’ before or brother, please ask my Pastor to pray for me?

I-man:

If Christianity is the true religion,and one claims that a majority of Christians are actually idolators(Most Christians are Catholic or Othordox),then the natural question is,which Church or group of Christians are not idolatrous?

First, I should repeat again that I've not categorically accused Catholics of being idolaters. If the case I present from the WORD leads Catholics logically to that inference, I'd rather that they explain to us WHAT is actually missing, and HOW Protestants are wrong in such inferences.

Second, I don't think anyone is asking "if Christianity is the true religion", and you can't cop out  that inference and apply it only to the Catholic Church simply because "most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox". The basic question is if any claim of any group stands the scrutiny of God's WORD.

If you're talking about numbers, may I remind you that Muslims are far more than Catholics. Does that therefore make Islam "the true religion"?

I-man:

If you deny the validity of Catholicism,and you are a Christian,then it raises the presumption that your Church is  truly Christian.

It depends on just what basis you define "validity", because I nowhere have stated that I fail to recognize the "validity" of the RCC.

For me, the simple question revolves around Catholic beliefs and practices; and there we must ask the question, do those beliefs and practices derive their legitimacy from the WORD of God?

You guys have been systematically dodging the WORD and trying to narrow this discussion merely to which group is "mostly Christians" built around size by numbers. Sorry, I saw that coming from a mile away - and that's why I'd not go down that path to turn the discussion into a shouting match between which Church out-numbers the others!

I-man:

So that leads to the question,what is your Church?-Anglican,Baptist,Mountain of Fire,Jehova Witness.e.tc?

These all are regarded by the Catholic Church as "Protestants" - and that is the issue. In just the same way as you declare yourself to be Catholic, so I make the same declaration to be Protestant.

If you have concerns about what particularly forms the core of my convictions, simply post same concerns and we'll take it up from there. Belonging to a particular denomination does not guarantee anyone a place in heaven, abi?

It depends on just what basis you define "validity", because I nowhere have stated that I fail to recognize the "validity" of the RCC.

For me, the simple question revolves around Catholic beliefs and practices; and there we must ask the question, do those beliefs and practices derive their legitimacy from the WORD of God?

You guys have been systematically dodging the WORD and trying to narrow this discussion merely to which group is "mostly Christians" built around size by numbers. Sorry, I saw that coming from a mile away - and that's why I'd not go down that path to turn the discussion into a shouting match between which Church out-numbers the others!

What are you blithering about ?    I have seen more coherence from Muslims in the Islam threads.

Second, I don't think anyone is asking "if Christianity is the true religion", and you can't cop out that inference and apply it only to the Catholic Church simply because "most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox". The basic question is if any claim of any group stands the scrutiny of God's WORD.

If you're talking about numbers, may I remind you that Muslims are far more than Catholics. Does that therefore make Islam "the true religion"?

Where did that come from?

@ebos,

ebos:

“Sorry, Catholic did not say worship.” Hum! This is just the beginning, there will be sorrier to say to Catholics.

Okay, I'm waiting for the continuation!  

ebos:

Now, Pilgrim, the reasons you gave for concealing the name of your church simply shows that all is not well with your denomination. Your fear of launching attacks against your Church means there are some hidden things your church has perpetrated. There is nothing you raised against Catholic that has not been addressed – quoting the bible verses.

Rubbish. My discussions have not been based around denominations within the Protestant community that the Catholic Church has issues with. Catholicism has problems with Protestantism on the basis of "belief" rather than on the basis of denominations among Protestants. Smart games you guys want to play, but sorry - it just won't work.

ebos:

From Infant baptism, Images, Mary etc. You have not presented any bible portion(s) that condemn Infant baptism etc.

Please take style talk true. Have I not discussed this issue of INFANT Baptism before? Go back again and see it:

       (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-74061.160.html#msg1435500)
       (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-74061.160.html#msg1435805)

I also left you a question/query there: "If Jesus baptized INFANTS, please ebos show it!"

Did you do so? Rather, this was your terse statement: "Infant baptism, I will still come to it.  But you have to answer questions today from us."

Maybe I missed it; but show me where you actually came back to it!

ebos:

You talk of what is written by the apostles without applying what Mary said that All Generations Shall Call me blessed. Was Mary not among the disciples? Why then you have refused to apply her teaching?

I've not argued to say Mary is not blessed. I simply have queried the idea that Catholics deny that their Cathecism actually states that they PRAY TO Mary! Have you shown me from the Bible that Jesus or the apostles taught us to PRAY TO Mary?

ebos:

However, you have just confirmed my comments on Pray or Ask. Christ or His Apostles applied the two words based on what message they tried to pass to the people concerning prayer to God. Let me believe that Pilgrim has not used the phrase ‘I pray you’ before or brother, please ask my Pastor to pray for me?

My dear ebos, you should know that pilgrim.1 has never prayed to ANYONE who is not God. If the Bible ask you to pray to MARY, please show it. Afterall, did you not deny this in your answer and state that Catholics do not PRAY TO Mary? I'm waiting for another denial, sir. Believe me, you go steady yourself to read more Cathechisms today!

I-man:

What are you blithering about ? I have seen more coherence from Muslims in the Islam threads.

Yes. . . more coherence from them that have rubbished Catholicism, not so?

I-man:

Where did that come from?

From your post - go read it again: "Most Christians are Catholic or Othordox", did you not say?

pilgrim.1:

Yes. . . more coherence from them that have rubbished Catholicism, not so?

They are undoubtedly more coherent

From your post - go read it again: "Most Christians are Catholic or Othordox", did you not say?

and you took that to mean . . .that I think Catholicism's legitimacy can be seen from its size? That is why I said you are blithering.

I-man:

They are undoubtedly more coherent

I hear you - that's why you've been going over to litter their thread, not so? I hear. . I hear.

I-man:

and you took that to mean . . .that I think Catholicism's legitimacy can be seen from its size? That is why I said you are blithering.

No worries. The legitimacy of the Catholic Church which up until now you have found it unspeakably difficult to enunciate is what I'd like you to address.

pilgrim.1:

I hear you - that's why you've been going over to litter their thread, not so? I hear. . I hear.

They are not wholly coherent,just much better than you.  Seriously,they are.

No worries. The legitimacy of the Catholic Church which up until now you have found it unspeakably difficult to enunciate is what I'd like you to address.

Is that why you are blithering ? 

Pilgrim, (you) show me any verse where infant baptism is condemned. Believe and be baptized? No, it didn’t condemn it. So, show me the portion of the bible, Pilgrim.

I-man:

They are not wholly coherent,just much better than you. Seriously,they are.

No worries. It simply stands to record that they have not been able to debate issues - the same way that you scurry around with these excuses.

I-man:

Is that why you are blithering ?

Did I acknowledge that anywhere? And does that answer my query? Haba, I-man. . na wah for your wayo!

ebos:

Pilgrim, (you) show me any verse where infant baptism is condemned. Believe and be baptized? No, it didn’t condemn it. So, show me the portion of the bible, Pilgrim.

The links are still available where I discussed the issue. If you've visited that link, read through my rejoinders, and then find where you think I'm wrong, then please post it here so we can further discuss it.

Your question sounds like someone asking the following:

Em. .  ebos, (you) show me any verse where smoking "weed/speed" is condemned. .

ebos, (you) show me any verse where pedophilia by Catholic priest is condemned. .

ebos, (you) show me any verse where praying TO Mary is condemned. .

ebos, (you) show me any verse where selling indulgences to sinners is condemned. .

. . . and a multitude of other abracadabra queries!

The one thing to note is that, no matter how una try to 'magic' this discussion, you're at a tight corner now. Wey that towel wey I ask you to borrow I-man? The sweat go plenty O!

@ebos
you talked about Jesus and his pictures. Let me ask, when was those pictures snapped?,which camera did they use? and who snapped him those pictures?. I ask this question because the face i see on those of your so called '' pictures of  Jesus" looks like the man who acted Jesus in the film "Jesus of Nazareth". Let me ask you again, if for instance, you bow in front of those pictures(images) and suddenly Jesus enters through the door what will you do at that moment?
until this questions are answered, well i reserve my comments.

I-man, take these 2 towels. One is for reserve incase one is saturated. Pilgrim, my bible tells me that charity covers a multitude of sin. However, this discussion would have been so exciting if we could know our various denominations. This will help us point out our mistakes, then corrections effected. How do you see this idea?

Bigfred,

Do you know that Jesus face appeared on Veronica’s handkerchief as an impression to show His approval when she (Veronica) wiped Jesus face as it was covered with blood and moisture? That is Jesus journey to Calvary. This type of story was passed from the Apostles to their Successors.

For all y'all who want to know the origin of the catholic church and the Papacy; read matt 16:13-19. St. Peter was an apostle of Christ, the first Pope the Catholic church had, and all the popes have succeded him. the catholic church was the only church before martin luther caused a schism and broke away in the 16th century and formed the Lutheran church. Henry VIII founded the Anglican church because the Pope of the time refused to grant him divorce from Catherine of Aragon because she could not give him a male heir, we all know that Henry went on to kill her and married five more women in quick succession killing all of them publicly. Then John Wesley broke out of the Anglican church to form th Methodist Church in the 1700s. The Pentecostal churches did not start springing up until the 1900s. I think people should focus on serving God rather than critising other denominations, we catholics believe that Mary and all other people(Saints) who lived Godly lives on earth couldn't possibly be anywhere else but in Heaven which is why we ask for their intercession, WE DO NOT WORSHIP THEM, THAT IS RESERVED FOR GOD ALMIGHTY

Men and brethren ! You are talking about 1billion catholics in the world can not all be fooled at once. Remember God does not work that way. He has spoken His word and we are to follow His word. I expected the Catholics members to look at this topic objectively, these following points are clear and straight forward,

1. Why do Catholics make images and bow down to them in prayers? ( this is in contradiction with the ten commandments)

2. Why do they use something like a white coin for holy communion in place of Bread and wine? ( Jesus used bread and wine)

3.Why don't they believe in the manifestation of the Holy spirit? (Jesus and all the apostle manifested the power of the Holy spirit)

4. Why the ash Wednesday? ( i cant find that in the Bible)

5. Why the honouring of Mary? (meanwhile non of the apostles made mention of any thing like that in their teachings)

6. Why the baptism of children? ( we all know baptism is for those that have heard the gospel and believe, does those innocent children also heard the gospel and believed?)

7. Why the rosery? (HM Na WA)

8. If the Pope is the Vicar of God, what is the Holy spirit then?

Can we be more objective about this plenty questions and compare with what the Bible says?

@Twayin

Who does the Bible refers to as the only midiator between man and God?

@Twayin

Who does the Bible refers to as the only midiator between man and God?

@Locoman

I have told you many times that the communion Catholic use is bread and wine. What you called coin is bread made without yeast. The jews were making bread without yeast at the time of Christ. So, any bread you make without yeast cannot rise. Unlike our own bread here, we use yeast to make it rise. Bring that issue again.

@ebos

I have never seen them using anything like wine they only use the bread as you have rightly said. It is just that bread i have seen them using and not two things representing the body and blood of Christ. you have omitted the wine issue what about that?

I cannot find this and that in Bible, but who wrote the bible? Catholic wrote the bible. Your argument is like telling your maker to have made you this way and not that way.

Again, who told you that Catholic don't use wine? Have you listened to our consecretion before? Ok, find any Catholic Church at your side and attend today. You will find out for yourself. They have mass everyday.

ebos:

I-man, take these 2 towels. One is for reserve incase one is saturated. Pilgrim, my bible tells me that charity covers a multitude of sin. However, this discussion would have been so exciting if we could know our various denominations. This will help us point out our mistakes, then corrections effected. How do you see this idea?

Bigfred,

Do you know that Jesus face appeared on Veronica’s handkerchief as an impression to show His approval when she (Veronica) wiped Jesus face as it was covered with blood and moisture? That is Jesus journey to Calvary. This type of story was passed from the Apostles to their Successors.

ebos
please don't make me laugh! how can an impression from a  handkerchief that was used to WIPE a blood stained face transform to the face the catholics call Jesus.The clean shaven bears, the well combed hair, hands legs etc were all gotten from this handkie.
Ebos my good friend, i praise your efforts in defending the catholic faith even some Rev.fathers will not go to this extent. But if at any time you don't have answer to any question please let us know instead of this kind of answers; However, iam still waiting for answer to these questios below b4 i make any further contribution.

bigfred:

@ebos
you talked about Jesus and his pictures. Let me ask, when was those pictures snapped?,which camera did they use? and who snapped him those pictures?. I ask this question because the face i see on those of your so called '' pictures of  Jesus" looks like the man who acted Jesus in the film "Jesus of Nazareth". Let me ask you again, if for instance, you bow in front of those pictures(images) and suddenly Jesus enters through the door what will you do at that moment?
until this questions are answered, well i reserve my comments.

@ebos

I like you too much, I would like to have you as a friend maybe we will have one thing to disagree about.

The catholics did not write the Bible. They where destroying the Bible so that the truth of salvation will never come to light. Remember they where killing people found with the Bible and they refused to allow the Bible to be translated from Aramaic to any other language except Roman language. But the truth can not be destroyed you know.

Bigfred,
You are getting everything wrong. Handkerchief was a true story. However, the picture never matter hence we don’t worship them. Do you want to tell me all those Jesus films you watch everyday especially His crucifixion were all acted by Catholics? Why the impersonation? Does that mean they are Jesus?

Locoman,
The bibles Catholic destroyed were written by Wyclif and Tydane because they were faulty. The bible was in a scroll (wood) but Stephen Langston who was the catholic Archbishop of Canterbury first wrote them in a printed form, and it has been there for over 600 years before these unscrupulous guys came up with their faulty bibles. Even today, if you go to Vatican you will see the scroll that contain the word of God.

If no other thing Pilgrim will agree, at least she will agree with this one. No doubt.

you non catholics should better not piss me off by saying things u dont know. nobody bows down to the saints and we honour mary not worshipping. catholic church is the only church that was founded by christ while others were founded by human beings like yourselves. dont say things u dont know my dears. if you dont know anything about the catholics you ask pls?

pls we read the bible

sonia11:

you non catholics should better not piss me off by saying things u don't know. nobody bows down to the saints and we honour mary not worshipping. catholic church is the only church that was founded by christ while others were founded by human beings like yourselves. don't say things u don't know my dears. if you don't know anything about the catholics you ask please?

please we read the bible

You honour Mary,what about Joseph? don't you think he deserves to be honoured also?
If you say you don't bow then you are not yet a catholic.

ebos:

Bigfred,
You are getting everything wrong. Handkerchief was a true story. However, the picture never matter hence we don’t worship them. Do you want to tell me all those Jesus films you watch everyday especially His crucifixion were all acted by Catholics? Why the impersonation? Does that mean they are Jesus?

Locoman,
The bibles Catholic destroyed were written by Wyclif and Tydane because they were faulty. The bible was in a scroll (wood) but Stephen Langston who was the catholic Archbishop of Canterbury first wrote them in a printed form, and it has been there for over 600 years before these unscrupulous guys came up with their faulty bibles. Even today, if you go to Vatican you will see the scroll that contain the word of God.

If no other thing Pilgrim will agree, at least she will agree with this one. No doubt.

Ebos, iam not against the handkerchief story, are you telling me that these pictures(images)were gotten from there? if not WHERE i want to know.

Nice one. . the thread moves faster than I could ever anticipate!

Twayin:

For all y'all who want to know the origin of the catholic church and the Papacy; read matt 16:13-19. St. Peter was an apostle of Christ, the first Pope the Catholic church had, and all the popes have succeded him.

Please stop! This is not yesterday - and people can read the Bible for themselves now, you hear? Can you show us the Pope in the Bible? What translation did you use for Matt. 16:13-19 in order to dress Peter as the first Pope? How many Popes were in existence in Peter's day or while he was alive?

Twayin:

the catholic hhurch was the only church before martin luther caused a schism and broke away in the 16th century and formed the Lutheran church.

You haven't recovered from that as yet, have you?    Sorry, here's something small for your consideration:


The East-West Schism, or Great Schism, divided Chalcedonian Christianity into Western (Latin)
and Eastern (Greek) branches, i.e. Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Though normally
dated to 1054, the East-West Schism was actually the result of an extended period of estrangement
between Latin and Greek Christendom. The primary causes of the Schism were disputes over
papal authority—Pope Leo IX claimed he held authority over the four Eastern patriarchs—and over
the insertion of the filioque clause into the Nicene Creed by the Western Church. Eastern Orthodox
today claim that the primacy of the Patriarch of Rome was only honorary, and that he has authority
only over his own diocese and does not have the authority to change the decisions of Ecumenical Councils.

               Source: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism)

Would you like to edit accordingly, Twayin?

Twayin:

I think people should focus on serving God rather than critising other denominations,

We would be glad if you take that same message to the Vatican. Could you do that? Thank you plenty-plenty!

Twayin:

we catholics believe that Mary and all other people(Saints) who lived Godly lives on earth couldn't possibly be anywhere else but in Heaven which is why we ask for their intercession, WE DO NOT WORHIP THEM, THAT IS RESERVED FOR GOD ALMIGHTY

So because they're in heaven, they have automatically become mediators? Wetin Bible tell you about how many mediators Christians have between them and God?  

@ locoman

Don't y'all pentecostals go to pastors and deacons saying "pastor pray for me", if you go to them on earth here telling them to lay hands on you and pray believing that God will answer their prayers on your behalf, how much more the mother of God and all those holy people in heaven?

@Pilgrim,

Where did Peter die? We all know that Peter moved His seat to Rome and was killed there. Since then all his successors have remained in Rome till date. Go and study how Saint Peter died and where.

I hope Pilgrim, Locoman, Bigfred & Co should stop telling their Pastors to pray for them. When we bow down in the church, it is simply a sign of respect to Mary. Meanwhile, God still manifest His Presence in His Temple. Still wondering how these churches that came up yesterday even the ones I saw when the founders established them could question the power of Catholic Church who wrote the very bible they are quoting. It is surprising.