ebos:

Again, I want to know the name of Pilgrim’s Church.

I-man, I guess she might not be proud of her church but I don’t know if I guessed it right.

Keep guessing. When you guess correct, pilgrim.1 go clap for you!

I'm quite happy in my local Church; but my debates have nothing to do with which particular denomination I fellowship with. Rather than make this a denominational issue, I've rather offered my persuasions from the same Bible wey una no fit debate!

I-man:

You only have to go though Nairaland to find historically,how many threads were started to rant about Catholicism.Compare that to how many were started by Catholics to rant about Protestantism or Pentecostalism.You won't find me on a Protestant thread questioning their beliefs or history

That you're not in any thread questioning Protestant beliefs does not accredit the Pope's unfortunate statement against other Churches and Christians.

pilgrim.1:

That you're not in any thread questioning Protestant beliefs does not accredit the Pope's unfortunate statement against other Churches and Christians.

This is just hocus pocus.The Pope said that other Churches were not true churches.Tell me,do Protestants and Pentecostals believe the Catholic Church is a true church which offers a path to salvation.The Pope is merely saying what other Churches say about Catholicism anyway.

You can play the ostrich but the evidence on NL is overhwelming,compelling and irrefutable as to who forms the most threads to engage in denominational bashing

pilgrim.1:

Keep guessing. When you guess correct, pilgrim.1 go clap for you!

I'm quite happy in my local Church; but my debates have nothing to do with which particular denomination I fellowship with. Rather than make this a denominational issue, I've rather offered my persuasions from the same Bible wey una no fit debate!

Its already a denominational issue,in case you missed it.This thread is about the assertion that a particular denomination-Catholicism-is a modernised form of idolatory.How denominational can you get?

You are obviously uneasy about your particular denomination.Perhaps it may have some "dodgy" history

herdey2tu:

Modern Roman Catholic Churhes do not worship idols, we worship the true living Almighty God, we reference His son; our lord Jesus Christ and comforter; the Holy Spirit, and honour The Blessed Vigin Mother of Jesus Christ, because of all being created by God, she was the most blessed and favoured for God's plan for mankind.

I've asked ebos to please help us non-Catholics by posting the Hail Mary prayer and the verses in the Bible that the prayer was taken from. This was his answer to my questions (and I suppose he answered as many Catholics would have  done):

ebos:

Catholics do not WORSHIP or PRAY to Mary.  Christians pray to God.  What we give Mary is just the honour which she truly deserves.

So, let me offer you just a small portion from a CATHOLIC website that states categorically that Catholics pray TO MARY! (emphasis mine)


"Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed
their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the Person of Christ manifested in His mysteries.
In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another:
the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" He did for His lowly servant and through her for all
human beings. The second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus,
because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused."

- from the Catechism of the Catholic Church; 2675.

      Source: (http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/mary3.htm)


Incase you missed it, let's review again the highlighted parts in that excerpt. Two things stand out clearly there:

(a) the Catholic Churches developed "their prayer TO the holy Mother of God"

(b) they also "entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God TO the Mother of Jesus"

Now, this is coming from a Catholic website that references the Catechism of the Catholic Church - and who then can argue that Catholics PRAY TO Mary? This is just a small confirmation by a Catholic document that Catholics pray TO Mary - which negates the claim by many Catholics that they do NOT "pray to" her! Who dey confuse who?!?  

I-man:

This is just hocus pocus.The Pope said that other Churches were not true churches.Tell me,do Protestants and Pentecostals believe the Catholic Church is a true church which offers a path to salvation.The Pope is merely saying what other Churches say about Catholicism anyway.

Yes, I-man. . . that is the way your Pope holds a "dialogue" with 'other Churches'! Who's speaking hocus pocus now?

I-man:

You can play the ostrich but the evidence on Nairaland is overhwelming,compelling and irrefutable as to who forms the most threads to engage in denominational bashing

Yep, and it should not have been news around the world when the Pope affirmed his own bashing from the Vatican, abi?

I-man:

Its already a denominational issue,in case you missed it.This thread is about the assertion that a particular denomination-Catholicism-is a modernised form of idolatory.How denominational can you get?

Oh, I see! Catholics suddenly see themselves as a "denomination" - merely for the sake of this argument, not so?

I-man:

You are obviously uneasy about your particular denomination.Perhaps it may have some "dodgy" history

Nothing of the sort. I just like to tease you guys and hold your firmly down to the written WORD!

I don close for today. Heading home. Will meet you tomorrow - so post am well before daybreak!

pilgrim.1:

Yes, I-man. . . that is the way your Pope holds a "dialogue" with 'other Churches'! Who's speaking hocus pocus now?

Yep, and it should not have been news around the world when the Pope affirmed his own bashing from the Vatican, abi?

You have perfected the art of pointless remarks      Has the Pope said anything different from what other Churches or Christians say of Catholicism?Nope.

Logically,if non-Catholics insist that Catholic doctrines and Catholicism breaches certain fundamental Biblical doctrines which casts doubts on its legitimacy,certainly,Catholicism is not in a position to recognise to recognise their validity either.

Since the 2 entities are so mutually imcompatible,why is anybody surprised when each questions the other's legitimacy? It is simply an acknowledgement of the obvious

pilgrim.1:

Nothing of the sort. I just like to tease you guys and hold your firmly down to the written WORD!

From the undisclosed sanctum of a dodgy church with an even more dodgy background.

That last remark doesn't make sense. How does you claiming the Prostentant church to be "dodgy" correlate with what she said? She merely said and has continually emphasised that the debate/discussion revolve round the Bible; the Word as the reference point and final authority for the two oppossing sides.

frankly, i don't see why this ish has to get personal. let's face the core issues with the Word, rather than take shots at each other with the usual - my church is a badass, yours is not. . .

Wordsmith:

frankly, i don't see why this ish has to get personal. let's face the core issues with the Word, rather than take shots at each other with the usual - my church is a badass, yours is not. . .

This is unbridled sanctimonious drivel.If you object to such perjorative discussions,then you will object the very existence of this thread.

That last remark doesn't make sense. How does you claiming the Prostentant church to be "dodgy" correlate with what she said? She merely said and has continually emphasised that the debate/discussion revolve round the Bible; the Word as the reference point and final authority for the two oppossing sides.

My facetious comment was in response to her evasion of our request to identify her Church.Her evasion prompted my comments about the "dodginess" of her Church.

@ I-man,

this is gbade. x you're referring to, so you better pull out that inhaler and breath the schmuck real easy. I won't have none of that.

By my last statement, i didn't mean we can't question ourselves, or critique doctrines we perceive are contrary to God's Word, no, what i really meant was this -"yo, pilgrim what Protestant church do u attend? nah, i think she's ashamed of church yada yada" - by that i meant it was getting personal. don't get it twisted, bro. . .

Wordsmith:

By my last statement, i didn't mean we can't question ourselves, or critique doctrines we perceive are contrary to God's Word, no, what i really meant was this -"yo, pilgrim what Protestant church do u attend? nah, i think she's ashamed of church yada yada" - by that i meant it was getting personal. don't get it twisted, bro. . .   

If "you are ashamed of your Church" is uncalled for,then what do you make of -"your Church is . . . .idolatory,"this is the way your Pope holds dialogue","you Catholics insult others"?  Obviously,if you resent the first quotation,you will resent the others,especially the second,which begs the question,why don't you then condemn the  thread if you don't like comments about "dodgy churches"?

If she is secretive about her Church,then one wonders what is prompting this.A dodgy Church perhaps 

okay, i bumped into this thread and i think i'll like to make a few contributions

about the idolatory thing, why do the Roman catholics still erect statues (or efigies) in the premises of their place of worship a.k.a church compund, eh?

I am currently a student of Madonna university, Elele campus, Rivers state (as at time of posting) and that was formerly a pilgrimage ground. Till now I still see statues of Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ but I really get mad and confused when I remember this,

I believe we all use the same Holy Bible and it was Recorded in Exodus ch. 20 vs 4-5 "Do not make for yourselves imagesof anything in heaven or on earth or in the water under the earth. Do not bow down to any idol or[b]worship[/b] it because I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals. I bring punishment on those who hate me and on their descendants down to the third and fourth generations."

with this alone I am easily convinced tha the Roman catholic church can be a form of modern idolatry.

why do they still keep statues and I still see people actually bowing down and praying to these statues.

may I also add a statue is a mere work of art, human inteligence and skill and can be used for ornamental purposes but it becomes an idol when it is being worshipped and that is what the Bible warns against.

hmmm, maybe this part of the Bible is blurred in the versions the Roman catholics use. lol

I-man n pilgrim.1 what can we say about this

@ I-man,

let's rewind a lil' bit. Now the topic's "RCC is not a church, but a mordernised way of idolatory?" .that was the main crux, reference of such a claim - The Bible. Now asking about her particular church doesn't connect with the topic to me. Of what relevance is the name of her church got to do with topic at hand. It seemed errthing derailed from there. . .

heys! why haven't u sat down to think: 'how could one sixth (1/6) of the world's population be wrong. a whooping 1.1 billion individuals couldn't be crazy.
if you reason well, think about this.

Wordsmith:

let's rewind a little' bit. Now the topic's "RCC is not a church, but a mordernised way of idolatory?" .that was the main crux, reference of such a claim - The Bible. Now asking about her particular church doesn't connect with the topic to me. Of what relevance is the name of her church got to do with topic at hand. It seemed errthing derailed from there. . .  

If you are concerned about relevance,there are more apparent cases on this thread that would have attracted your attention.

If Christianity is the true religion,and one claims that a majority of Christians are actually idolators(Most Christians are Catholic or Othordox),then the natural question is,which Church or group of Christians are not idolatrous?

If you deny the validity of Catholicism,and you are a Christian,then it raises the presumption that your Church is  truly Christian.So that leads to the question,what is your Church?-Anglican,Baptist,Mountain of Fire,Jehova Witness.e.tc?

aight, i get your point. And when u eventually get to know the name of her church, then what would you do with it?

Wordsmith:

aight, i get your point. And when u eventually get to know the name of her church, then what would you do with it?

It depends on which Church it is. . .doesn't it?

Like I said. .you can't for instance have a debate with a Hindu and tell them their belief system is flawed without disclosing what then is this belief system that isn't so flawed.It is all a natural and logical consequence of such a discussion.

Either the whole of Christianity is pointless or it is from God.If it is the latter,and the biggest branch of Christianity is merely idolatrous,which one isn't?A comparative analysis is an intergral and natural consequence of this kind of debate.

One has to be uneasy about one's belief to insist on hiding them.

Catholics typically see others as 'rude, offensive, silly' but never take the time to look closer at the same things coming from their quarters.

Wat r u talking about? So the millions of catholics around d world typically see others as rude, silly and offensive, because one catholic (me) makes a comment about a post that is truly aggravating? Na wah 4 u o.

As per the Pope saying oda churches r not christians? Did u watch/hear the whole message, or u just heard dat part and turned off ur tv?
U need 2 learn 2 give pple d benefit of doubt and hear them out, instead of taking things out of context and analyzing, solely on d bit u heard.  No prob sha, one love, one God. I'm out.

dat post was 4 pilgrim 1

Catholics typically see others as 'rude, offensive, silly' but never take the time to look closer at the same things coming from their quarters.

She must have done a statistical analysis of all 1.1 billion Catholics to arrive at that conclusion.

@Wordsmith

What relevance does the quoted comment have to the topic?Or you no see am as well

@newness99

From the way you speak i can see that you are not even a faithful Catholic, We have been very polite with ourselves all along Ebos and I-man have been defending the Catholic faith without using any abusive word. But you can from nowhere with abusive words against my name.

It is true in Spanish LOCO mean crazy, But thank God that in my language it means "God is my Hiding place". You see how wrong you are? You better repent.

I'm a faithful catholic (Thank you very much). You asked for it. Everyone knows religion is a sensitive topic so where do u get off saying Catholics r not a church, they r idolaters. D mere sight of those words pissed me off bad. Ne wayz, there's freedom of speech in nairaland.

Sorry 'bout d name calling o, i'm a lover not a fighter baby. Lovely meaning, Loco - 'God is my hiding place'.

Pilgrim & Co,

The word PRAY can be used in many ways depending what you have in mind or trying to put across. ‘PRAY’ can mean ask, implore, entreat, plead, request, inquire etc. The phrase “PRAYER TO MARY” which you see on the website you posted does not mean Catholics worship Mary. When Catholics say ‘they Pray to Mary,’ it simply means they ASK or IMPLORE Mary to Pray for them. Again PRAYER can also mean appeal or whatever and it can be used to articulate the thought you have at that point in time. When I say, “I appeal to you,” does it mean I worship you?

That is why I said, outsiders always get Catholic wrong. Catholics know who they worship and you are not to quote them wrong. Does it make any sense for Catholics to deny who they worship? If we cannot profess who we worship in public, why going behind to worship her. It then means we are not proud of worshipping Mary or idols as you erroneously claimed. Catholics give Holy Mary Honour but worship the living God. Haba!

Catholics cannot be like some other Protestants who are not proud to let people know where they worship. Probably, because of some clandestine code of belief. We are proud to give Mary Honour and will continue to do so world without end.

Pilgrim, why all the time, I’m quite happy or comfortable with my Local Church? Is Local Church the answer we need? Why not replace the word “Local” with the name of your church? I can’t understand what is difficult to mention just a name and the issue of denomination will close. Just wondering!

Ebos is very proud to be a Catholic but can that be said of you? If your answer is affirmative, then mention it.

ebos:

Pilgrim & Co,

The word PRAY can be used in many ways depending what you have in mind or trying to put across. ‘PRAY’ can mean ask, implore, entreat, plead, request, inquire etc. The phrase “PRAYER TO MARY” which you see on the website you posted does not mean Catholics worship Mary. When Catholics say ‘they Pray to Mary,’ it simply means they ASK or IMPLORE Mary to Pray for them. Again PRAYER can also mean appeal or whatever and it can be used to articulate the thought you have at that point in time. When I say, “I appeal to you,” does it mean I worship you?

@ebos,

Please simply admit that the Catholic Church prars TO Mary. I asked you the question earlier and you denied that Catholics pray to Mary; rather you "explained" that they only "honour" Mary!

In the first place, don't confuse your readers here by trying to play word games between PRAYER and WORSHIP! You did not define WORSHIP, rather, it was PRAYER that you tried to tell us what it "means"! My question was simply whether or not Catholics PRAY to Mary - and you denied your own Catechism! Na wa for you!!


The way you've come back trying to contradict your own denials only serves to further worsen the situation for you. So, if you define prayer to mean "ask, implore, entreat, plead, request, inquire etc", could we apply these terms and see if that is not the same thing as "praying" TO God? Sample these:

Matt. 6:6
'But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door,
pray TO thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward
thee openly.'

When the Lord Jesus taught on prayer, TO whom did He ask us to direct our prayers? Why did He not ask anyone to "pray TO" Mary?

Now, let's even examine those definitive terms you used. Everywhere we read in the Bible, we find that the Lord Jesus Christ was clear that He did NOT ask people to pray TO Mary! Not one time! Closely examine the following and see Who He asked us to direct our prayers TO:

To ASK:

Matt. 7:11
'. . how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ASK Him?'

Matt. 18:19
'Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ASK,
it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.'

Matt. 21:22
'And all things, whatsoever ye shall ASK in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.'

John 14:13
'And whatsoever ye shall ASK in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.'

John 15:16
'. . . that whatsoever ye shall ASK of Father in my name, He may give it you.'

John 16:23
'. . .Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ASK the Father in my name, he will give it you. '


You'll also find that NOT one time did the apostles pray TO Mary or teach that anyone should pary TO her! They were clear as to whom they directed their prayers TO:

Act 8:24
'Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye TO the Lord for me, that none of these things
which ye have spoken come upon me.'

Acts 12:5
'Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church UNTO God for him.

Rom 10:1
'Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer TO God for Israel is, that they might be saved.'

1 Cor. 11:13
'Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray UNTO God uncovered?'

2 Cor. 13:7
'Now I pray TO God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should
do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.


It is interesting that the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2675 admonishes Catholics to entrust their supplications and praises to Mary. But the WORD of God clearly stipulates something else! Rather than devote our supplications and praises to Mary as the Catechism urges, we read the following statement in Php. 4:6 --

'Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving
let your requests be made known UNTO God.'

My dear ebos, e go hard for you to kick against the goads! The evidence is before you - take them or leave them!

ebos:

Pilgrim, why all the time, I’m quite happy or comfortable with my Local Church? Is Local Church the answer we need? Why not replace the word “Local” with the name of your church? I can’t understand what is difficult to mention just a name and the issue of denomination will close. Just wondering!

Ebos is very proud to be a Catholic but can that be said of you? If your answer is affirmative, then mention it.

Let me rest this case once for all. Pilgrim.1 is VERY happy where she fellowships. Her local Church fellowship does not pride herself with making bogus boasts about who we are - and for all that, we're not ashamed of who we are.

The two reasons why I refrain from stating it here on the Forum are:

(a) some have asked me to state it so they could divert the topic being discussed and then launch into unbridled vitriol
against my denomination - that one, pilgrim.1 will not oblige them

(b) my focus has always been the WORD rather than tradition of any denomination - so, if you can't concentrate on the
WORD of God, nothing else avails: not even what my local Church says on any matter.

I'm quite satisfied that the Pope made a categorical statement against "OTHER Churches and Christians" - without specifying any particular denomination. If he had mentioned Methodist, Assemblies of God, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, etc, then we would know best to deal accordingly. But Catholics have made it a divide between Catholics and Protestants - and no magical abracadabra will change the focus of the discussion. Next time, the Pope will be cautious what he utters.

I advice seun to change the topic of this thread or a great doom will fall on ur website,

@topic, you know u will rot in hell thats why u wanna start criticizing on earth, betta wait till ur soul perish b4 u criticize. I wonder why Nigerians are so interested in criticizing other religion when we know we all serve same GOD;,

smile4kenn:

I advice seun to change the topic of this thread or a great doom will fall on your website,

Nutin go happen. Trust me!

smile4kenn:

@topic, you know u will rot in hell thats why u want to start criticizing on earth,

Thanks for already stating your own criticizing as highlighted; but sorry, pilgrim.1 will NOT even go near Hell! My soul is safely in the hands of the Lord Jesus, not in the hands of any Catholic.

smile4kenn:

betta wait till your soul perish before u criticize.

You should simply have referred that message to the Vatican which criticized others and made it world news.

smile4kenn:

I wonder why Nigerians are so interested in criticizing other religion when we know we all serve same GOD

Sorry, the Pope is NOT a Nigerian! Even then, he should not have criticized others if you guys are so unhappy to read responses from Protestants!

Now ebos, continuing my gist with you o jare. . .

ebos:

That is why I said, outsiders always get Catholic wrong. Catholics know who they worship and you are not to quote them wrong.

A-ha! Did I quote the Catholic Catechism 2675 wrong? Abi una get two "Cathechism 2675"?

ebos:

Does it make any sense for Catholics to deny who they worship? If we cannot profess who we worship in public, why going behind to worship her. It then means we are not proud of worshipping Mary or idols as you erroneously claimed. Catholics give Holy Mary Honour but worship the living God. Haba!

Sorry, the Cathechism did not say "worship" - and I'll quote that one when we get there! Rather, the Catholic Cathchism said plainly that Catholics PRAY TO Mary!

ebos:

Catholics cannot be like some other Protestants who are not proud to let people know where they worship. Probably, because of some clandestine code of belief. We are proud to give Mary Honour and will continue to do so world without end.

Hehe. . ebos, we don't have "cladenstine" code of beliefs. That should be clear by now to you from my rejoinders. I've remained within the WORD of God rather than any code of belief or tradition from any Church or denomination.

Since it is a matter of Catholics and Protestants, I'm happy to remain within that context and discuss issues presented. It is this same matter of the Catholic Church following some "code of belief" that contradict the WORD of God that is informing my inputs here, and nothing else.

I-man:

You have perfected the art of pointless remarks      Has the Pope said anything different from what other Churches or Christians say of Catholicism?Nope.

Lol. . . we know wetin dey pinch the Pope before he came out with that Vatican statement affirmation! Go back to the annals of Church history and see how the Catholic Church "dialogued" with those she considered 'dissenters'. Pointless remark? Oh, I see - the Pope made a pointless remark to have even bothered to make it an official matter that 'other churches not Christian', or whichever way, abi?

I-man:

Logically,if non-Catholics insist that Catholic doctrines and Catholicism breaches certain fundamental Biblical doctrines which casts doubts on its legitimacy,certainly,Catholicism is not in a position to recognise to recognise their validity either.

No - the Catholic Church from beginning did not recognize the validity of whatever it considered NON-Catholic . . abi them no tell you?

I-man:

Since the 2 entities are so mutually imcompatible,why is anybody surprised when each questions the other's legitimacy? It is simply an acknowledgement of the obvious

Right. I don't know why you're so surprised to even bother replying in the first instance - since the Vatican publicly and officially questioned the legitimacy of other Churches and Christians.