logic101:

@cap 28
i just observed something interesting
libya has been omited from the economic indexes of countries .In that way one cant examine the standard of living in libya here are a few sitess

http://www.economywatch.com/economic-statistics/economic-indicators/GDP_Per_Capita_PPP_US_Dollars/2011/

has it occured to you that possibly they might not have been able to gather data in libya to make such assessments or possibly they have updated it to reflect the fact that the data does not reflect countries undergoing choatic change (military nature) like Libya.

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So let me understand. You people's support for Gaddafi's dictatorship is purely based on his provision of a higher standard of living than can be found in many, if not all African countries?

Pray tell why you guys did not move to Libya then to enjoy this wonderful paradise. Someone above mentioned democracy as being a bad thing. Please tell me you don't live in any western country because if you do then that would be most hypocritical of you.

You give the example of Nigerian democracy having achieved nothing for 50 yrs but then neglect to mention that in that period we have had only about 6 yrs of true democracy. We have had military dictatorships and have had supposedly "civilian" rulers who rigged themselves into power.

I would also love you to explain the success of scandinavian countries who have the highest standard of living in the world. When you talk of Free education I have a friend who just went back to her native Sweden to go to medical school for free because she couldn't afford the cost of studying in the US. Are you going to say that Sweden is not a democracy?


Your arguments are better directed at Capitalism as an economic system not democracy as a political one. Libya can be the utopia you all claim it is without one man and his family terrorising the whole country like it is his personal property. If Libya was such a paradise there would not be such a popular uprising. People deserve not to live in fear.

PS. The people have entered Gaddafi's compound and are searching the rooms.

tony_450:

So let me understand. You people's support for Gaddafi's dictatorship is purely based on his provision of a higher standard of living than can be found in many, if not all African countries?

Pray tell why you guys did not move to Libya then to enjoy this wonderful paradise. Someone above mentioned democracy as being a bad thing. Please tell me you don't live in any western country because if you do then that would be most hypocritical of you.

You give the example of Nigerian democracy having achieved nothing for 50 yrs but then neglect to mention that in that period we have had only about 6 yrs of true democracy. We have had military dictatorships and have had supposedly "civilian" rulers who rigged themselves into power.

I would also love you to explain the success of scandinavian countries who have the highest standard of living in the world. When you talk of Free education I have a friend who just went back to her native Sweden to go to medical school for free because she couldn't afford the cost of studying in the US. Are you going to say that Sweden is not a democracy?


Your arguments are better directed at Capitalism as an economic system not democracy as a political one. Libya can be the utopia you all claim it is without one man and his family terrorising the whole country like it is his personal property. If Libya was such a paradise there would not be such a popular uprising. People deserve not to live in fear.

PS. The people have entered Gaddafi's compound and are searching the rooms.

tony_450:

I don't care about Gaddafi or Nato either, my opinions are based purely on principle. If you remember how this all started you'll know that no one was going to come to the aid of these people even when they were begging for help. Gaddafi brought this all on himself. He saw what was happening in Tunisia, Bahrain, Egypt etc and decided to crush the peaceful protests by threatening the whole city with death.

Yes I remember that Bahrain KILLED the protestors with the aid of troops from Qatar and Saudi Arabia, there is evidence all over the net! heres a little sample


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6RCBOC-MAM

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/2011314124928850647.html

So why were they not bombed then Tony?

You said he threatened the whole city with death lol! he's been doing that for 43 years why is it wrong now?

tony_450:

Now look at this objectively and tell me how a dictator of 43 yrs should be tolerated by his people when they see those around them fighting for and celebrating freedom?

Thats not objective, thats your opinion.

tony_450:

Nato gave them help the only way they could, suppported them, and helped them throw of oppression.

You call Bombing and killing to help rebels support? If NATO bombs Nigeria with thousands of Bombs to help MEND defeat the government would you call that support? You deserve a trophy for your euphemisms.

tony_450:

If you question NATO's motives, I can't defend them because i don't know what they're thinking and neither do you.

Don't be so naive lol! I know exactly what they are thinking "little African country with the largest OIL reserves in Africa, lets steal it now and blame it on the Arab spring".

tony_450:

I can't defend them because i don't know what they're thinking and neither do you. On the other hand, the situation at hand called for their support and its up to the Libyan people who called them in to get rid of them and decide their own future.

I am sure NATO will just walk away now and let the Libyans decide their future lol! keep dreaming! they will recoup the billions they spent on bombing Libya like they did in Iraq and they will also award themselves all the CLEAN UP and RE-CONSTRUCTION contracts from the $100 Billion in their banks.

tony_450:

You can't support a dictators wishes against the will of the people

You need to read up on history, you have a lot to learn but you are quite young so I understand, what do you think the foreign policy of the west has been towards Africa and the Middle-east all these decades?




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Uploaded with ImageShack.us  <== [size=13pt]Is that you TONY hugging Gaddafi?[/size]

You people's support for Gaddafi's dictatorship is purely based on his provision of a higher standard of living than can be found in many, if not all African countries?

let me explain my own position.


1. i am indifferent to libyan affairs.

2. libya still has a better standard of living than most other african countries, if the reports i hear are correct.

3. as per his dictatorship- i know nothing about that besides the fact that many african mercenaries and terrorists were said to have received training in libya.


lastly, can you name the african countries with the "higher standard of living" which you are referring to.

Young and naive? Wrong on both counts mate. You don't know me.

@tpia@ you misunderstand me. I'm saying that just because Libya has a good standard of living as compared to other African countries doesn't excuse all the other things Gadhafi has been accused of.

I'm also saying that if Libya was such a paradise, there would be no popular uprising and people wouldn't be celebrating in the streets.

tony_450:

Young and naive? Wrong on both counts mate. You don't know me.

[size=18pt]oops! I meant Young and DUMB! You should wake up and apologise if you dream of getting to know me[/size].

Also I really don't care what NATO does anywhere else. The topic of discussion is Libya. If the people of Bahrain felt that it was in their interest to take up arms agaisnt their government, and then proceeded to ask the UN for help, I would support the UN coming to their help too.

By the way, the leadership of Bahrain is a monarchy, not a dictatorship.

The Western and Nato time an money is getting low each minutes so they are really in a haste to install a puppet so that they can have access to oil reserve and the remaining 100billion$ reserve including awarding multi billion dollars contract for theirselves lol. Ghaddafi knows this and this people that is why he has all the support of most libyans

tony_450:

Also I really don't care what NATO does anywhere else. The topic of discussion is Libya.

[size=13pt]so why on earth you talking about Sweeden?[/size] 

tony_450:

I would also love you to explain the success of scandinavian countries who have the highest standard of living in the world. When you talk of Free education I have a friend who just went back to her native Sweden to go to medical school for free because she couldn't afford the cost of studying in the US. Are you going to say that Sweden is not a democracy?

[size=13pt]Your level of Dumbness is immeasurable[/size] 

[size=13pt]British SAS troopers help co-ordinate rebel attacks in Libya[/size]

The Guardian has learned that a number of serving British special forces soldiers, as well as former SAS troopers, are advising and training rebel forces, [size=13pt]although their presence is officially denied[/size].

The Guardian has previously reported the presence of former British special forces troops, now employed by private security companies and funded by a number of sources, including Qatar. They have been joined by a number of serving SAS soldiers. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/23/sas-troopers-help-coordinate-rebels

oh well, Dropping thousands of Bombs, the French Arming the rebels and British mercenaries is a modern definition of a no-fly zone to protect Libyan civilians

nolongTing:

[size=13pt]so why on earth you talking about Sweeden?[/size] 

Obviously your ability to seperate out arguments and logically answer the different points presented is severely limited. Its really pointless arguing with someone as academically challenged as you are but then again you are probably a product of the poor and defective education availabe in most Nigerian schools. Your wild conspiracy theories and flights of fantasy point to an over-imaginative mind so you'll probably do well in Nollywood. Except for the fact that your poor reasoning skills would result in mangled scripts and terrible plots.

Also, resorting to insults in order to win arguments is not a sign of intelligence. Neither does the number of smilies you use indicate any sort of ability to express yourself.  On that note I'm signing off and you wouldn't be hearing back from me on this topic unless of course you magically resolve your problems. 

Sayōnara

PS: Please learn to spell

^^^^
That is uncalled for. Enough said. Do you have to resort to putting down every aspect of the country befor getting your message across? What has Nollywood and failing Nigerian education got to do with the war in Libya?

One thing is for sure that Gaddafi is going to leave whether he likes it or not!

tony_450:

Obviously your ability to seperate separate out arguments and logically answer the different points presented is severely limited.

You really have made it obvious that you are an incurable im.bec.ile – you can't even spell the most BASIC word in the english language – what a pathetic sod lol! 

tony_450:

Its really pointless arguing with someone as academically challenged as you are but then again you are probably a product of the poor and defective education availabe available in most Nigerian schools.

I have corrected your recurring spelling mistakes,  now I will give you a lesson in logic you wish you had:

The facts:--

NoLongThing was born in England 

NoLongThing received the best education money can buy in England 

NoLongThing is a professional Software Developer 

Your blind assertions:--

“academically challenged”, is obviously impossible

“probably a product of the poor and defective education availabe available in most Nigerian schools.”  is vividly false.

Thats how you use logic, take notice of how its devoid of senseless, incoherent waffling. 

tony_450:

Your wild conspiracy theories and flights of fantasy point to an over-imaginative mind so you'll probably do well in Nollywood. Except for the fact that your poor reasoning skills would result in mangled scripts and terrible plots.

It took you half an hour to make an attempt to sound intelligent – don't try it again it makes you sound dumber than you already are. Trying to make links between conspiracy theories and Nollywood really sums you up lol! When you are well read like me the elocution occurs naturally. 

tony_450:

Also, resorting to insults in order to win arguments is not a sign of intelligence.

You have mistook a fact for an insult.  So why on earth are you talking about Sweden? Was genuine question referring to your unintelligible rant and "Your level of Dumbness is immeasurable" - is a FACT – everyone can see it, can't you? 

Look, little boy, the moral of the story is: don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house. 

zur Hölle fahren

nolongTing:

[size=13pt]British SAS troopers help co-ordinate rebel attacks in Libya[/size]

The Guardian has learned that a number of serving British special forces soldiers, as well as former SAS troopers, are advising and training rebel forces, [size=13pt]although their presence is officially denied[/size].

The Guardian has previously reported the presence of former British special forces troops, now employed by private security companies and funded by a number of sources, including Qatar. They have been joined by a number of serving SAS soldiers. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/23/sas-troopers-help-coordinate-rebels

oh well, Dropping thousands of Bombs, the French Arming the rebels and British mercenaries is a modern definition of a no-fly zone to protect Libyan civilians

I thought there was a UN embargo on supplying arms and equipment to anyone in Libya. It would seem that NATO has gone far beyond their mandate and perhaps it should be looked at by the UN whether charges should be brought against the Leaders of France and Britain.

Horus:

I thought there was a UN embargo on supplying arms and equipment to anyone in Libya. It would seem that NATO has gone far beyond their mandate and perhaps it should be looked at by the UN whether charges should be brought against the Leaders of France and Britain.

Speaking of which:

40 min 44 sec ago - Libya
A US lawmaker fiercely opposed to NATO's role in the Libya conflict called Tuesday for the alliance's military chiefs to be held to account under international law for the deaths of Libyan civilians.

"Otherwise we will have witnessed the triumph of a new international gangsterism," Democratic Representative Dennis Kucinich, a leading opponent in the US Congress to Washington's role in the fighting, said in a statement.

Kucinich said that NATO forces had flouted UN Security Council resolutions in acting as "the air force for the rebels, who could not have succeeded but for NATO's attacks" and had[b] "illegally pursued regime change."[/b]

"NATO's top commanders may have acted under color of international law but they are not exempt from international law," he said, as opposition fighters captured Muammar Gaddafi's fortified Tripoli compound.

"If members of the Gaddafi regime are to be held accountable, NATO's top commanders must also be held accountable through the International Criminal Court for all civilian deaths resulting from bombing," said Kucinich.

NATO has insisted that its attacks are in keeping with UN resolutions passed this year which allow military action to protect civilians in Libya.

But UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has expressed alarm at the number of civilian casualties in the conflict, including those inflicted in NATO air strikes.

And NATO's air attacks have drawn harsh criticism from members of the UN Security Council, including Russia, China, Brazil, India and South Africa, who say the action goes beyond UN resolutions on Libya.  -  AFP

^^^^
What has the man have to say about the freedom of the people. I have never seen Libyans in this celebrating mood before.

I don't care so much about what other views are but just glad the Libyans are free to express themselves.

Lol, Some are people killing themselves here, while the Libyans are liberating themselves.

Libya with no trade union

Libya with no human right record

Libya with no opposition

Libya with no constitution instead you have a green book from Almighty Gaddafi himself.

What!!! Gaddafi is now an hero to some Nigerians.

The-same set of  Nigerians who either ran-away, hid themselves during the NADECO struggle .

When other Nigerians are fighting for their freedom.

I thought some Nigerians said  Gaddafi will win the battle.

Where is Gaddafi and his sons: they ran away. GOOD.

That is what you get when you fight against your people.

tony_450:

So let me understand. You people's support for Gaddafi's dictatorship is purely based on his provision of a higher standard of living than can be found in many, if not all African countries?

let me ask you a question - would you rather live in supposedly democratic nigeria with no running water, death trap roads, no electricity, no social welfare safety net and no security or the libyan jamahiriya which was  a socialist state run by various  people's  committees who catered for the needs of their people and were able to provide good roads, constant electricity, free eduation and health care, state of the art hospitals and a clean environment?

Pray tell why you guys did not move to Libya then to enjoy this wonderful paradise. Someone above mentioned democracy as being a bad thing. Please tell me you don't live in any western country because if you do then that would be most hypocritical of you.

do you know anywhere in the western world where democracy is being practised in its pure form because i dont, western countries are run and controlled by the international banks and mutinationals.  govts in europe and america serve the interests of powerful corporations they do not serve the interests of their electorate, politicians get into office through donations from these powerful interests and once there they pass laws which ensure that these corporations remain rich and powerful. It has always been like this, the rich and powerful have always been in control while everyone else has been expected to take orders from them, the rights that many people in the western world enjoy today like collective bargaining, equality rights , disability rights etc were not given out on a platter - they were fought for by poor and workign people and now they are all being taken back - look at what is happening in america now - obama has given in to right wing reactionaries who want the total abolition of any form of welfare for the poor, elderly or sick - here in britain cameron who is a public school educated elitist bends over backwards to keep his banker friends in the city of london happy by bailing them out with tax payers money while the poor bear the burden of this by having to pay higher taxes and cuts in social welfare programmes -is that your idea of democracy?

You give the example of Nigerian democracy having achieved nothing for 50 yrs but then neglect to mention that in that period we have had only about 6 yrs of true democracy. We have had military dictatorships and have had supposedly "civilian" rulers who rigged themselves into power.

the so called 6  year democratic period that you refer to is when nigeria imposed the most draconian economic policies on its populace, obasanjo - the supposedly democratically elected president implemented some of the most draconian economic policies you could ever imagine - policies which were designed to keep nigerians trapped in poverty for ever.  it was during his tenure in office that nigeria's sovereignty was hijacked by the  international financial institutions - and this is still an ongoign process - this is why poverty and unemployment is rising in nigeria -

I would also love you to explain the success of scandinavian countries who have the highest standard of living in the world. When you talk of Free education I have a friend who just went back to her native Sweden to go to medical school for free because she couldn't afford the cost of studying in the US. Are you going to say that Sweden is not a democracy?

yes, sweden is one of the few european countries that is actually implementing a fairer and more equitable economic system - but they are the exception to the rule.

Your arguments are better directed at Capitalism as an economic system not democracy as a political one. Libya can be the utopia you all claim it is without one man and his family terrorising the whole country like it is his personal property. If Libya was such a paradise there would not be such a popular uprising. People deserve not to live in fear.

like i said the majority of european countries do not practice democracy, america is definitely not a democracy it is a plutocracy - which is where power and money is concentrated in the hands of a tiny group of super rich elitists - these elitists use their power and vast wealth to buy and control the govt who in turn serve their interests.

your argument against one man ruling libya for so long holds no water - the british elite have been running britain for over 600 years and they are still in power, the founding fathers of america were slave owners, merchants and pirates - the descendants of these people still run america, before you can run for the presidency in america you have to be in a position where you can afford to spend millions of dollars on campaign trails - this automatically excludes about 90% of the population, the vast majority of american senators and congress men are from wealthy backgrounds - the majority of britain's former prime ministers are oxford or cambridge educated - these are elite institutions only accessible to a few in society - mainly the rich and powerful.  in america the political class are mainly harvard and yale men and women - the western political class is dominated by the elite, you can not call your govt democratic when the people who represent you only come from the elite class.

People are so funny is this Forum, please what are the main criteria of a good governance?
is Libya a Socialist or a Capitalist country?
these are part things you should put into consideration when talking about Libya
Gaddafi did a VERY VERY VERY good job in Libya, for me a prefer a Gaddafi to all the 15leaders that we have had since we gained independence,
maybe you guys don't know, the NTC and Bokom Haram are of the same idea, they both want a change in government and rule of law.
Trade Union is a agenda of a Capitalist nation.
please what is human right??
in term of Opposition, Nigeria has opposition since 1960, where are we today.
Point of correction the GREEN BOOK is Libya rule of law, more or less their constitution.Libya has never practiced democracy so how do you expect them to have a Constitution l

british intelligence have now come out openly to admit that they had been actively  involved in the overthrow of the libyan govt since February, they now openly admit that they had spies, ex SAS and MI6 on the ground in libya as far back as February this year - weapons, communications were all supplied to the rebels in order to accelerate the removal of the libyan govt:

[flash=200,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zadvM7umTzk&feature=channel_video_title[/flash]

Fimmy:

People are so funny is this Forum,  please what are the main criteria of a good governance?
is Libya a Socialist or a Capitalist country?
these are part things you should put into consideration when talking about Libya
Gaddafi did a VERY VERY VERY good job in Libya, for me a prefer a Gaddafi to all the 15leaders that we have had since we gained independence,
maybe you guys don't know,  the NTC and Bokom Haram are of the same idea,  they both want a change in government and rule of law.
Trade Union is a agenda of a Capitalist nation.
please what is human right??
in term of Opposition, Nigeria has opposition since 1960,  where are we today.
Point of correction the GREEN BOOK is Libya rule of law,  more or less their constitution.Libya has never practiced democracy so how do you expect them to have a Constitution l

Libya once have a constitution.

Gaddafi replaced it with the green book which contains his personal philosophy.

and please whats the GREEN BOOK? story book abi?

Fimmy:

and please whats the GREEN BOOK? story book abi?

Why ask when you know the answer.

Roland17

If only Gaddafi conducted democratic elections and handed over, he would have been a Hero in Africa.

Right on point.

i dont know the answer

Fimmy:

i dont know the answer

The GREEN BOOK contains Gaddafi's political philosophy.

emmatok:

The GREEN BOOK contains Gaddafi's political philosophy.

I bet you were there when it was being written by Gaddafi?

BTW, when OBJ leveled and massacred the whole town of Odi, where were the British, French and US troops to overthrow the Nigerian government?

What exactly do you think Gaddafi did that's worse than what OBJ did?

^^^^
How old are you?

For your information Gaddafi is not getting back that position!

this is the third of fourth time they've announced the end of gaddafi since the beginning of this war.


i dont know why everyone is so eager to broadcast "news" they wish was true, without confirming if it actually is.

what's almost certain now is that country might split up eventually.

all4naija:

^^^^
How old are you?

For your information Gaddafi is not getting back that position!

LWKMD, and here's someone asking how old another being is, have you really made any sense with all the long post you keep typing?

If he's not getting back to that position, how's that your problem? button line, he's 100% better than 95% of all your leaders both dead and alive, you can pick a discussion on that if you think i am wrong.

[flash=300,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uOr_9a2el0&feature/channel_video_title[/flash]

The number of brainwashed individuals in the world today is very alarming. So to some people democracy is the best form of government. How has democracy helped in Africa? Democracy is just a form of government and nothing makes it superior to other forms of govt. Any government that cannot provide what in Economics is called the basic need of life is a faliure i.e, food, clothing and shelter. The Gaddafi regime provided this and more and I think most Libyans agree with that.

However If the people of Libya do not want Gaddafi they have the right to make their demands but what we have seen in the last six months is that groups of gang in Benghazi unilaterally changed the national flag, constituted a non-democratic government, harmed every dick tom and harry with AK47 guns and supported by the West who claimed they invaded Libya because Gaddafi promised to crush the rebels. This is not how things are done it is recolonization.

While I am not very concerned about how the Libyans go about their revolution my major concern is the Nigerian govt recognizing those rebels. Why not wait and see the endgame before recognising them. Who knows what the NTC would become? GEJ seems to be making to many hasty decision as regards foreign affairs.