aribisala0:

again this is wrong and there are no absolutes.

most individual cases will be dealt with on their own merit

if i steal $1000 from you and use the money to have a party at McDonalds and the money is found in the CASH REGISTER what do we do ?? who owns the money??

There are no absolutes in life especially in legal cases. You are trying to put the carriage before the horse.

Here’s how the law works. There is the law as written, which does not change from case to case but has to be interpreted by the Judge. Then, there are facts to a particular case, which is almost never the same as any other case. It is the lawyer’s job to apply the unique facts of his case to the settled body of law (stare decisis).

The first thing to do is go down the main section of law and if an exception applies, then you apply it. You don't apply an exception before analyzing the main section of the law.

Nice try with the money example. Money cannot be personal property – it is not unique. The person in possession of money is deemed the actual owner unless you have evidence to the contrary, which is why cops will record serial numbers.

The only time that someone can sell you a fraudulent property (real or personal) and actually pass title is in real estate, and that’s only when you record the title in public records which should serve as notice. Then you become a bona fide purchaser.

The truth is that most people think they know the law but what you think the law is and what it actually is are two different things.

Wallie:

There are no absolutes in life especially in legal cases. You are trying to put the carriage before the horse.

Here’s how the law works. There is the law as written, which does not change from case to case but has to be interpreted by the Judge. Then, there are facts to a particular case, which is almost never the same as any other case. It is the lawyer’s job to apply the unique facts of his case to the settled body of law (stare decisis).

The first thing to do is go down the main section of law and if an exception applies, then you apply it. You don't apply an exception before analyzing the main section of the law.

Nice try with the money example. Money cannot be personal property – it is not unique. The person in possession of money is deemed the actual owner unless you have evidence to the contrary, which is why cops will record serial numbers.

The only time that someone can sell you a fraudulent property (real or personal) and actually pass title is in real estate, and that’s only when you record the title in public records which should serve as notice. Then you become a bona fide purchaser.

The truth is that most people think they know the law but what you think the law is and what it actually is are two different things.

most people think they know the law but ONLY YOU DO
WHICH LAW ?
NIGERIAN LAW?
statute or general legal principles
find someone else to lecture about the law NOT ME
what you are talking about is NOT RELEVANT here
i gave you the example of a WALMART EMPLOYEE who mistakenly reduces the price of an item causing significant loss to WALMART can the goods be recovered as "STOLEN"


ownership of stolen goods that are purchased in [b]good faith [/b]varies in several jurisdictions all based on case law and not usually on detailed LEGISLATION

I SUGGEST YOU research recent amendments to UK law and the position in Switzerland with regards to stolen goods "PURCHASED IN GOOD FAITH"

the position in NIGERIAN LAW is NOT settled and will be influenced by future litigation
of cause i would welcome any reference to statute or case law NOT BLUSTERY BOMBAST

was anything stolen in this case

from whom

this whole argument is irrelevant in this case as there is no theft or related case before the police
what we have is a blunder by officials who were in lawful possession unless there is evidence of collusion with the buyers which cannot be ruled out but must be PROVEN

aribisala0:


in this case their is no evidence of fraud or theft more like a blunder e.g. an employee of walmart mistakenly marks a dress for $20 instead of 200 and i buy it and walmart tries to recover same from me

let us be real here. where is the evidence for fraud/theft or crime in this case

I missed this. If you try to buy the clothing, they don't have to sell it to you. Lately, companies usually add disclaimers against typographical error.

If you already bought the dress, and Walmart can prove that you knew the price was wrong, the sale can be rescinded. This is called "mistake" under contract law. If it was a unilateral mistake, and one party knows of the error or a reasonable person should have known that there was an error, the contract will be set aside.

If it was a mutual mistake then the contract is voidable, which means that Walmart can choose to rescind it.

we are talking about goods that have been bought in good faith at an auction from the government.
there is a risk that the good may be defective etc.

[b]there is no theft here[/b]
so i don't see what your point is here??

no one has reported a theft and if the customs followed the guidelines
they would have put an ad in the newspapers so i really am perplexed at what you are trying to say

aribisala0:

most people think they know the law but ONLY YOU DO
WHICH LAW ?
NIGERIAN LAW?
statute or general legal principles
find someone else to lecture about the law NOT ME
what you are talking about is NOT RELEVANT here
i gave you the example of a WALMART EMPLOYEE who mistakenly reduces the price of an item causing significant loss to WALMART can the goods be recovered as "STOLEN"


ownership of stolen goods that are purchased in [b]good faith [/b]varies in several jurisdictions all based on cased law and not usually on detailed LEGISLATION

I SUGGEST YOU research recent amendments to UK law and the position in Switzerland with regards to stolen goods "PURCHASED IN GOOD FAITH"

the position in NIGERIAN LAW is NOT settled
of cause i would welcome any reference to statute or case law NOT BLUSTERY BOMBAST

was anything stolen in this case

from whom

this whole argument is irrelevant in this case as there is no theft or related case before the police
what we have is a blunder by officials who were in lawful possession unless there is evidence of collusion with the buyers which cannot be ruled out but must be PROVEN

Oga, calm down no be fight! You are wrong and also mixing contract law with criminal law. Most of the theories that I’m spewing is just first year law stuff.

Let’s take it one example at a time. Luckily, most contract law is common law and I can easily look up UK law on the web.

I guess I should have added a disclaimer to my posting but here it goes:

I’m not licensed to practice law in the UK or Switzerland except in the US :-)

aribisala0:

we are talking about goods that have been bought in good faith at an auction from the government.
there is a risk that the good may be defective etc.

[b]there is no theft here[/b]
so i don't see what your point is here??

no one has reported a theft and if the customs followed the guidelines
they would have put an ad in the newspapers so i really am perplexed at what you are trying to say

OK. Let's talk about this particular case. In my original post, I said that you cannot sell what you do not own and I still stand by the statement.

There is no such thing as a bona fide purchaser for personal goods. For Customs to sell the goods the title needs to pass to them; otherwise, the buyer is out of luck.

Going back to post #53, if there’s a law that automatically transfers title of abandoned property at the Warf to Customs, then a 3rd party can buy it with no problems. However, this is only true if the property is “abandoned.”

How do you know if a property is abandoned? The statute that transfers title to the customs or the courts will define “abandoned” to you.

Since you like examples so much, here one: I forcefully take the keys of your car from you claiming to seize it just because. I then turn around and sell the car on Nairaland to an unsuspecting buyer. What recourse does the buyer have against you and me?

you seem determined to engage in a vainglorious exercise.

we are talking about equipment auctioned from the nigerian ports

let us not go off at a tangent till we end up talking about the behaviour of subatomic particlles in aluminium foil

all i am saying is that


there is no theft here unless we have not been given the truth

the customs are obliged to give consignees notice of impending auction

they claim that they did so let us deal with the here and now and not talk about year one or year x law.
if the customs have done everything that they are claiming they did then in my view

there has been no theft and
the goods are lawfully auctioned.
knowing nigeria like i do  i can speculate about what went down but we must deal with the facts as they are told us .

i believe in using the smallest possible tool to accomplish a task and so i don't see the need for biographical data about your licensing status it is good (for you)but IRRELEVANT .
all i am tryin to show is that the position is by no means the same across different jurisdictions with regard to rights to stolen goods that are purchased in good faith but
for the UMPTEENTH TIME
it is by no means clear that they were stolen as we have a statement from no less that the comptroller of customs to that effect

aribisala0:

we are talking about goods that have been bought in good faith at an auction from the government.
there is a risk that the good may be defective etc.

[b]there is no theft here[/b]
so i don't see what your point is here??

no one has reported a theft and if the customs followed the guidelines
 they would have put an ad in the newspapers so i really am perplexed at what you are trying to say

Also, "good faith" in your context just means that you can't be charged criminally but you will still forgo the property you bought. However, in the civil court, you can sue the seller for the money you paid him.

nikkygal:



But the Comptroller of NCS, Alhaji Dikko at a resumed session with the committee on Tuesday however insisted that he did not act alone, adding that the agency had at the expiration of the first 15 days for such container to be cleared notified the relevant authorities on the need to act.

Dikko who was represented at the session by a Deputy Comptroller General of Customs, Mr. John Atte however said that the agency decided to auction the NIPP equipment after it was gazetted and published in compliance with the law.

either this claim is true or it is not.
until further evidence is provided i will assume it is true
as such the issue of stolen good DOES NOT ARISE

Wallie:

Also, "good faith" in your context just means that you can't be charged criminally but you will still forgo the property you bought. However, in the civil court, you can sue the seller for the money you paid him.

i am not going to convince you and you will NOT convince me .
but like i said find out what GOOD FAITH means in Switzerland
why??
there is no absolute law. law is relative and varies from place to place

but

whatever the case with that argument it is irrelevant here.
you might forego property you bought(depending on circumstances and jurisdiction) if they were stolen

were these goods stolen??

if they were not then you have to sue for them and the recovery procedure is NOT the same for stolen property
there is no question of theft here??

aribisala0:

you seem determined to engage in a vainglorious exercise.

we are talking about equipment auctioned from the nigerian ports

let us not go off at a tangent till we end up talking about the behaviour of subatomic particlles in aluminium foil

all i am saying is that


there is no theft here unless we have not been given the truth

the customs are obliged to give consignees notice of impending auction

they claim that they did so let us deal with the here and now and not talk about year one or year x law.
if the customs have done everything that they are claiming they did then in my view

there has been no theft and
the goods are lawfully auctioned.
knowing nigeria like i do  i can speculate about what went down but we must deal with the facts as they are told us .

i believe in using the smallest possible tool to accomplish a task and so i don't see the need for biographical data about your licensing status it is good (for you)but IRRELEVANT .
all i am tryin to show is that the position is by no means the same across different jurisdictions with regard to rights to stolen goods that are purchased in good faith but
for the UMPTEENTH TIME
it is by no means clear that they were stolen as we have a statement from no less that the comptroller of customs to that effect

Vainglorious? Naw, I have nothing to prove in an anonymous forum and I’m just whiling away time  

Your arguments seem to be discombobulated – you need to try to make it more logical. Let’s see how we got here:

You said

truth is the buyers acted lawfully and may sue the govt,for substantial damages if they take them back by force. we must not forget that govt is not above the law

To which I responded

You cannot sell what you do not own. The title (legal rights) to the property did not pass to the Customs, which means that the title cannot be passed on to the buyers of the property. The contract for sale/auction is void ab initio and the innocent 3rd parties only have a claim against the Customs.

Also, the 3rd parties cannot be jailed because they didn't do anything wrong and only got duped.

Thinking about this further, it is also possible that there's a law that effectively gives legal rights to abandoned property to the customs. If true, then they can dispose it according to their rules.

The next question will be to determine if the property fits the definition of “abandoned property.” If it does, then the senate can’t really do anything but to change the law as written. Then again, this is Nigeria!

Who said anything about “theft” or “stolen”? Anyway, it has been fun and my billable hours are waiting!

aribisala0:

i am not going to convince you and you will NOT convince me .
but like i said find out what GOOD FAITH means in Switzerland
why??
there is no absolute law. law is relative and varies from place to place

but

whatever the case with that argument it is irrelevant here.
you might forego property you bought(depending on circumstances and jurisdiction) if they were stolen

were these goods stolen??

if they were not then you have to sue for them and the recovery procedure is NOT the same for stolen property
there is no question of theft here??

Here’s your Swiss Civil Code:

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/2/210.en.pdf

Art. 3
1
Where the law makes a legal effect conditional on the good faith of a
person, there shall be a presumption of good faith.
2
No person may invoke the presumption of good faith if he or she has
failed exercise the diligence required by the circumstances.

Point out the section on good faith that supports your stance.

it was already stated by the OP if you bothered to read that the customs believed they acted lawfully and they published their actions.

the reason why i said you need to read is there are various legal traditions about passing title which were highlighted in several cases involving JEWISH property that was stolen during the holocaust and this influenced where they sought to litigate e.g . there is the so called anglo american tradition whose doctrine is that a stolen property no matter how many times it is sold ; the title remains with the original owner and the other extreme GOOD FAITH position found in switzerland and other european countries.

however in england there was a so called dawn till dusk law from medieval times which allowed title to be lawfully transferred if sold in OPEN market in daylight

this is a very complex issue and not one that can be dealt with so flippantly as you did.

more importantly.

it has NO RELEVANCE here

Wallie:


Here’s your Swiss Civil Code:

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/2/210.en.pdf

Point out the section on good faith that supports your stance.

what is my stance??

my stance is that it has no relevance to our discussion other than to point out that it is NOT always true that one may NOT lawfully buy goods from another who does  not have good title.

my friend i am not sure what your point is and from the look of it we both share my uncertainty

i believe there would be a presumption of due diligence by any reasonable person in these circumstances
i really would prefer to talk about the nipp equipment and not engage in self indulgent showboating that is not relevant.
so NIPP equipment,

aribisala0:

what is my stance??

my stance is that it has no relevance to our discussion other than to point out that it is NOT always true that one may NOT lawfully buy goods from another who does  not have good title.

my friend i am not sure what your point is and from the look of it we both share my uncertainty

i believe there would be a presumption of due diligence by any reasonable person in these circumstances

Hausa Fulani Hegemony at it again. The strue enemies of Nigeria will stop at nothing to bring this country down. We have already jumped and passed. The thieves including their thieving boss should be arrested and jailed. Period.

The law only takes its course when the Presidency wants it to. That is why Tafa & Bode George were sentenced in the first place.

Any high profile case not concluded is a direct result of the Presidency's interference.

I am loving Senator Ngige.

THE CUSTOMS BOSS HAS CLEAR HIS NAME BY SAYING HE FOLLOW DUE PROCESS.LET US CHECK THE FACTS AND FIGURES
BEFORE NAILING PUBLIC OFFICE HOLDER.IF THE CUSTOMS MEN HAVE DONE ANY WRONG LET THE LAWS TAKE ITS CAUSE.
SINCE THERE IS AN OFFICIAL GAZETTE ON THIS MATTER THE SENATOR SHOULD WHAT TO.ONE NIGERIA

9ja4eva:

No mind the yeye man.I wonder who he thinks he is threatening.If only he knows who he is talking to.

I have the right to speak my mind and call the Government to order if i see something wrong.

It it my "RIGHT" not a privilege as a citizen of NIGERIA.

Who the F are you? Who cares? This is NairaLand, noone cares who anyone is, if you like, be Hitler himself.

Which kind of person comes on a forum to make baseless statements he or she cant corroborate?

Where is your evidence and proof that Patience collects millions from the customs man on a daily basis?

If you cant prove it and support it with facts, then, just zip it, i careless who or "what" you are.

It is indeed your right to lie shamelessly on the pages of the internet.

Shame.

You dey make me laugh.Your name sef no follow.

I thought you said you reported to the SSS?Shey SSS never issue arrest warrant ni?

I am not making no baseless statement dude.I have no business giving evidence or proof
to you.Those that matter know these things.YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THREATEN ME ON A PUBLIC FORUM
Since you be bad guys i dey wait for your SSS to contact me.

Its not a secret in Abuja and in the civil service.Please try get enlightened before you throw emtpy threats.

I sure say Boko Haram never hammer your family yet.If they do the love you have for Patience will turn to hate then
you will see the light.The N1 wey you dey collect from Patience go turn to kobo.

9ja4eva:

You dey make me laugh.Your name sef no follow.

I thought you said you reported to the SSS?Shey SSS never issue arrest warrant ni?

I am not making no baseless statement dude.I have no business giving evidence or proof
to you.Those that matter know these things.YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THREATEN ME ON A PUBLIC FORUM
Since you be bad guys i dey wait for your SSS to contact me.

Its not a secret in Abuja and in the civil service.The same Dikko that gave out 19 cars to the CG of Immigrations.
Please try get enlightened before you throw emtpy threats.

I sure say Boko Haram never hammer your family yet.If they do the love you have for Patience will turn to hate then
you will see the light.The N1 wey you dey collect from Patience go turn to kobo.

Shouldn't u be behind bars by now?

Thats amazing.

revomind:

Shouldn't u be behind bars by now?

Dem don release you?The cell too big for me and you.When you serve out your term let me know.

Can someone remid me again - when will this ultimatum expire?

They have been recovered, Praise the Lord!

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/customs-recovers-auctioned-nipp-equipment/101864/

how likely is it that dangote ,guinness or cadbury will allow their equipment to be auctioned in this way ??

15 of them have been recovered and they were all recovered from the North.

Dikko needs to tell the world what the vessels were doing in the North.His end has come.

Can someone remind me again - when will this ultimatum expire?

How could they have auctioned $3B NIPP equipment?

johnie:

Can someone remind me again - when will this ultimatum expire?

Expired this past Tuesday.