cgift:

I am happy for you my sis. Congrats! This thing (brain) no be by force, God just give you flenty flenty How we go wash am?

Haa! I still dey dance for here _{(see me - I get classes very early momo, and I still dey misbehave for here)} 

If to say you dey near Bristol, e for easy to call you make you join our party! E go happen in 2 weeks time, and I no fit wait!!

oko_wo_obo:

you're crazy - honestly speaking.

Chei. . my belle don pain me with laff tire!

oko_wo_obo:

you're crazy - honestly speaking.

oko_wo_obo,

you be hermaphrodite? That your name na wa o

Funny and surprising, how the christians conveniently project falsehood on two brothers in faith; Muhammad and Jesus (AS, to both of them)

Afuah in her comparison called Muhammad an idolator! Wow! Was not the core message of Muhammad to the Arabs of Makka and mankind in general was to shun idol worshpping? Have you seen any mosque or a muslim that ever erected an idol or any symbol and said it is reconciliable within Islam?

She further said that Jesus read the Bible and Muhammad was illiterate. She was partially correct. Muhammad needed not to be other than illiterate. Today, even the non muslims have a devouted study on what he brought; Islam and Qur'an. We call these people orientalists.
Jesus read the Bible is completely false! The Bible was gathered together, not from the immediate companions of Jesus. But from people of later generations. Then it was put together, with authorship of those who gave only one name and 'according to' projection!

Tell me Afuah, just Afuah is enough to identify you, without other Afuahs around the world? These are just simple things that will separate truth from falsehood.

olabowale:

Funny and surprising, how the christians conveniently project falsehood on two brothers in faith; Muhammad and Jesus (AS, to both of them)

Dont ascrib to Mohammad what he was not and would never be. He said he was not sure what Allah would do to him at the end of his life. Do you know that? He was not even sure of his call to prophethood and that led him to giving four conflicting accounts of his call! Is that not a thing of shame for a prophet not to know how he was called? Mohammad and Jesus are not two brothers. Jesus is Mohammad's creator and came to die for Mohammad too.

If Mohammad directed you people to go and confirm his words with the bible, how dear you call the bible false? Do you dishonour your prophet by calluing him a liar or that he was not sure of what he was saying? If the quran gives authority to the bible, and not vice versa, if there is conflict between the two, which should give way? Is it not the one that has the higher authority? So, Uncle Ola, your quran should be kept aside whenever there are occassions it conflicts with the bible. ok?

olabowale:

Jesus read the Bible is completely false! The Bible was gathered together, not from the immediate companions of Jesus. But from people of later generations. Then it was put together, with authorship of those who gave only one name and 'according to' projection!

Oh! Somebody who does not know his own scripts claiming to know anothers There is nothing i wont see on this forum! Let me help you sir:

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister,

Jesus was reading the scriptures sir. Make sure you dont faint o. You will tell me whether it was the quran or a hadith Jesus was reading today.

olabowale:

Tell me Afuah, just Afuah is enough to identify you, without other Afuahs around the world? These are just simple things that will separate truth from falsehood.

So, Uncle, stop day-dreaming. Your quran completely gives authority to the bible. If then, it comes later to disdain the bible or Jesus in some other Suras, it only shows how disconcordant and irreconciliabl your propht and his book is.

@olabowale,

How are you today?

olabowale:

Funny and surprising, how the christians conveniently project falsehood on two brothers in faith; Muhammad and Jesus (AS, to both of them)

Christians are not projecting falsehood. Rather, Muslims have been playing a diehard game of pretending to have truth and yet not having been able to defend their claims.

olabowale:

Afuah in her comparison called Muhammad an idolator! Wow! Was not the core message of Muhammad to the Arabs of Makka and mankind in general was to shun idol worshpping?

I think when you carefully weigh the evidence, the conclusions are staggering indeed that Islam practices a queer form of idolatry that Muslims have sought to hide from the international community for centuries. Muhammad did a clever thing - he flushed out hundreds of idols and established his own.

olabowale:

Have you seen any mosque or a muslim that ever erected an idol or any symbol and said it is reconciliable within Islam?

Certainly, yes I have.

This is the staggering truth; but while I was still a Muslim we knew that some of the popular mosque around the world were regarded as "holy shrines" - and in some cases, the graves of some notable Ismalic figures are actually built inside some of the mosques!!

The irony of this is that Muhammad had actually decried this very practice - and that was why he cursed the (Roman Catholic) Christians in his accusation against the monks that they built shrines around their worship places and were worshipping their priests! Little did Muhammad know that his won devoted followers would do the very same things for which he had rained curses the Catholic Church!

This is a just a brief response to your concerns - but I usually have my FACTS ready before posting replies. So, if you could be bold enough to DENY the above, I would gently serve you the gist in full (yes, my original post and not a PLAGIARIZED material ).

olabowale:

She further said that Jesus read the Bible and Muhammad was illiterate. She was partially correct. Muhammad needed not to be other than illiterate. Today, even the non muslims have a devouted study on what he brought; Islam and Qur'an.

Okay, time up! Settle your heart, dear sir - Muhammad was NOT illiterate. He read and dictated the Qur'an, teaching it's perculiar accents to his scribes, what to write where and how to pen them down. Shocked? No need to be - the truth is out today, and many Muslim apologists are summersaulting over themselves to hide the fact.

Note also: an "illiterate" man who could not have allowed anyone to cheat him in measuring the war booties must have been a scholar with bootie-figures!

olabowale:

We call these people orientalists. Jesus read the Bible is completely false!

Luke 4:16-20
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him."

olabowale:

The Bible was gathered together, not from the immediate companions of Jesus. But from people of later generations. Then it was put together, with authorship of those who gave only one name and 'according to' projection!

The Qur'an was gathered and compiled after Muhammad's death! Learn to balance your shakara and let's see what you really have to share.

olabowale:

Tell me Afuah, just Afuah is enough to identify you, without other Afuahs around the world? These are just simple things that will separate truth from falsehood.

There are millions of "Muhammads" in the world - so what's your point really?

@Pilgrim.1: I now clearly understand you; evidently, you lack any understanding of Islam. Since you are a Yoruba woman, some of your family members are still in the religion, I am going to assume, for the sake of this subject. Now ask them, if any of they will bow to any idol, physical or imagined? All will tell you no. The only reason is that it is against islam. No single Muslim will bow to Muhammad (AS). yet everyone reveres him. When you were a muslim, even though you lacked any tangible knowledge of islam at that time, did any one ever instructed you to bow to any other than ALLAH? That being the name of The Creator in the language of Arabia. Remember that the Christian arabs use the same name for The Creator and Isa for Jesus. Both are different and separate. One is truly GOD, Lord. The other, some in their bent understanding of what God The Creator is is assumed to be God. Yet he said I can not do anything of my own, except by the POWER provided to him from GOD!

What Idol did Muhammad installed? Do the Muslims worship it? I have been Muslims all my life and never once bow down to any Idol. I even refused to pray to Jesus or say amen, when ever any is mentioned with God. Examine the Qur'an again, for the first time and do the same on the Hadith and Sunnah of Muhammad (AS), you will not find any place for idol worshipping! Period. If you do, I will become a christian. If you cannot, for surely, you cannot, come to Islam. Submit to your God Almighty, alone.

It is very refreshing that you have seen mosques with grave around it. My question is this, is idol worshipping allowed in Islam? In Islam, it is not even permitted to pray to Muhammad (AS), so that God can bestow a favor! If it is not permitted, then it is not a rule in Islam. Unlike christianity, where the essence of that religion, by its founder Paul, even though the religion carries, in dishonesty the name of a noble prophet of God, it is the veneration and worship of this prophet that is the core. Christian hangs only on Jesus, and nothing else.

Muhammad (AS), was an illiterate, taught only by God. Muhammad's tutor was Jibril. Whats your point? I dont get it. I was shocked when Afuah said Jesus read the Bible. To a layman like me, I take it that the Bible was already penned before jesus was raised up! Please clarify that for me.


Luke 14-16: As you have clearly stated, all that he read was the old testament. On one hand a part of the christian book, but of Jewish usage. Do you believe in that part of the Torah, the book of esias, which jesus read? If you do, you will notice that he described himself, only as a prophet and nothing else. Further, it was pronounced by a prophet of old, before Jesus. Didnt any prophet before jesus performed any and all of the miracles in Jesus' reading?


But the Qur'an was memorized, completely, by Muhammad and many hundreds of his followers while he was still alive! Thats the difference. A real set apart difference. Further, if you know anything about what brought about the compilation of Qur'an to a book, you will leave that topic alone. Like the present day, Islam have always been having open enemies. After the death of the holy prophet, we had pagan tribes, who proclaimed with their lips that they have become muslims and wanted to learn Qur'an. The muslim caliphate and his contemporary believed them, since no one sees the heart. Unfortunately, these tribes killed hundreds of reciters of this illustrous book. therefore, it became eminent that the book is preserved, for the fear that the enemy of Islam, will not have upper part.

My sister, we still have the same, even today. Watch on google the atrocities of the christian missionaries in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other muslim communities. Even in your home country of Nigeria. Shameful!

Do you truly know the full names of the writers of the gospels? Simply a first name only and it is according to identification. Really, it is not clear who the true writers are. Exceptthe writings of paul, who used to be saul, everything is blurry.

In addition, if Jesus truly finished up/complete his mission, how come Paul changed everything and turn upside down the mission of Jesus? Something is wrong here! How is it that Jesus have to be in heaven before he sent more information to somebody from outside the core of his followers, the 12 desciples? They were not believers and he needed a new brand of believer to lead the new flock, outside the lost children of Israel (Jacob)?

How is it, that he did not even tell his followers, while he was there on earth them? Since he was not a meek and shy person, and he spoke about many important matters, like the one who will betray him, the holy spirit that will come and teached or led to all thing, this thing about Paul was not important enough? He did not know anything about it then, having a limited knowledge or what? I want your answer!

Okare! The Bible , Torah of Musa, Sabur of Daud and Injil of Isa bin mariam (AS jami'ah), that Muhammad spoke about, was already corrupted before Muhammad (AS), was called to the office of prophethood. Allah, in His bounty of Mercy, asked Muhammad to confront the people of the book, without using aggression. This meant that he asked them matters, which they knew the truth about, but hid the truth from their community, but would be impossible to hide it from Muhammad, they knew him, from their knowledge of their book, that he was a prophet.

In suratul fathiah, also known as the mother of the book or the 7 oft repeated verses, the last verse of this surah called the Jews; the incurrer of the wrought of God and the Christians; the group that is astray. How then do we use your book? Remember an episode inMadina, whereby Umar bin khattab was so excited to have found some information in the Bible, which correspondende with Qur'an, which promugated the holy prophet to call the Muslims together and told that if Musa were to be alive, and hears about he, muhammad's mission. Musa, will have no choice except to have followed Muhammad! What applied to musa, also applied to Isa and others (AS jami'ah)! My further proof is the even of Isra wal Miraj. I advise you to seek the knowledge about this topic. What Muhammad did in jarusalem (Masjid Aqsa and Dome of the Rock), on one hand and his ascention to heavens. All of it from makka and return to it, in part of one night! It will be too much for you, so swallow bit by bit.

For starter, there is no one among the muslims, a quarter of the world population, that will say that anything about the Bible, the opposite of what i have said. Many will say more in the same light as i have written. There are many verses of the Qur'an that support my statement. When the Bible is referred to, in the Qur'an, the prophet is required only as to confront the jews and the christians as to force them to admit the truth, which they knowingly hid from their communities.

Note that he only spoke to the learned among them about religion matters. For instance, in chapter 5, the table spread, Allah the Almighty commanded His Messenger to tell the christian that they should desist from saying three, because God is One! Further, he was commanded to tell them, those who claimed and still claim that they are children of God, to say to them, that why do God punish you, when you do wrong? Except that the truth is that you are only His creation. part of punishment is condemnation to the fire of hell!

If you are truly child of God and not your father's child, my sister, tell me why isnt your last name God? Think about it. You will find that your ascendants as well as mine, indeed that of all mankind, will go and merge only to Adam! Is Adam God then? Your father did not creat your body and soul, but only part of the agency that God almighty employed to creat you. So your Lord, your Creator is One and not your father!

Stop the nonsensical and come to a reasonable understanding!

Olabowale,

your posts is making me sleep

@cgift: Sure. Your claim that my post is making you sleep, is a cheap capout, for oh, i canot face reality. Yet you sit or listen through the falsehood or feel good session of your big time pastors/evangelists! Wow! Your excuse will not wash with me.

olabowale:

@cgift: Sure. Your claim that my post is making you sleep, is a cheap capout, for oh, i canot face reality. Yet you sit or listen through the falsehood or feel good session of your big time pastors/evangelists! Wow! Your excuse will not wash with me.

Now I am hungry

Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, My LORD GOD Almighty I am shivering to my marrow.This is the greatest failed attack I have ever seen done against my GOD with such a monumental failure. Pilgrim,Cgift Nwando and the rest,may the HolySpirit continue to give you cover, For this superb job executed here. I just found this thread.
Don maselo, may not be a muslim! He just set this play ground and stepaside to watch the fire burn the religion. Or just as pilgrim said because they cram a lot and dont read, there might be no resource to engage the Holyspirit with.I have lived 90% of my life in the core north I know this guys very well, there fore I put my seal on every thing said here. Another way to know about a religion is to look at the lives of the founders and how the religion is practiced. Islam has drawn too much blood over time.The records are there.We know the tension we go thru here in Kaduna. I rest my case for now

olabowale:

@cgift: Sure. Your claim that my post is making you sleep, is a cheap capout, for oh, i cannot face reality. Yet you sit or listen through the falsehood or feel good session of your big time pastors/evangelists! Wow! Your excuse will not wash with me.

I have just gone thru all the posts in this thread. With the way you have been arguing your case here it just goes to show that u are not a graduate from a proper school. You kept shifting the goal post. As you are doing with this last post of yours-why are you bringing in [pastors and evangelists? Are you crating an escape route for your self again?. Boy rest your case.because u no get case. DO you know how the spirit of shedding blood from MO's time has entered the Muslims in Kaduna and Kano? do you know how they are killing Innocent souls here. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 this cant be a religion of peace. Plsssssssssssssssssssssss. I hereby suggest that you should be ignored henceforth for not staying with the issues and for shifting the goal post

olabowale:

But the Qur'an was memorized, completely, by Muhammad and many hundreds of his followers while he was still alive! Thats the difference. A real set apart difference.

you also forgot to mention one other glaring difference. Mo and his good friends forgot a great deal of the quran they claimed to have "completely" memorised no?

@pilgrims1

Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 09:12:58 PM
We call these people orientalists. Jesus read the Bible is completely false!

Luke 4:16-20
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the[b] book of the prophet Esaias[/b]. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him."

I no fit laugh o my sister. . Did Jesus read the bible or the book of the Elias? Was he given the bible or the gospel?

babs787:

@pilgrims1

I no fit laugh o my sister. . Did Jesus read the bible or the book of the Elias? Was he given the bible or the gospel?

@babs787,
Hehehhoho. . Abeg, babs787. . . you wan make water comot for ma eye with laff!

Wey your answers to my kweshuns?

Anyway, I might be off for a week - enough time for you to harrass people on the Forum with more "Periklytos" and plagiarism.


Enjoy o jare!!

@Olabowale,

Hehe. . . After reading your complaints (instead of serious explications to issues), I sat back to play internet games (Yahoo Zumo) and laughed all the way. . . until now that I'll quickly respond to yours and treat myself to some fresh-fish peppersoup!

You shouldn't be whinging - that's below a man who claims to have been a Muslim all his life and yet scarcely understands his own Qur'an. Most along your post, you seem to be more concerned about what you see on Google, so that you may lay claim to some wild excuses of what "Christians" are doing (which you already know has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity). And if you take a closer look, Google can fetch you more than enough stuff about Islam that will put your whining to rest!

olabowale:

@Pilgrim.1: I now clearly understand you; evidently, you lack any understanding of Islam. Since you are a Yoruba woman, some of your family members are still in the religion, I am going to assume, for the sake of this subject. Now ask them, if any of they will bow to any idol, physical or imagined? All will tell you no. The only reason is that it is against islam. No single Muslim will bow to Muhammad (AS). yet everyone reveres him. When you were a muslim, even though you lacked any tangible knowledge of islam at that time, did any one ever instructed you to bow to any other than ALLAH? That being the name of The Creator in the language of Arabia. Remember that the Christian arabs use the same name for The Creator and Isa for Jesus. Both are different and separate. One is truly GOD, Lord. The other, some in their bent understanding of what God The Creator is is assumed to be God. Yet he said I can not do anything of my own, except by the POWER provided to him from GOD!

. . .

Stop the nonsensical and come to a reasonable understanding!

I hear.

This is why I hinted that your posts are not half as intelligent as one would have hoped - considering that you'd been a Muslim all your life. You are just going along with all the mumbo jumbo you received to recite by rote without the dimmest understanding what you postulate.

You don't yap ignorantly to allege that I had no understanding of Islam - especially when YOU have not been able to honestly and intelligently refute any point in my post. My family members are all Christians now - and they came to know Christ as Lord and Saviour with a deep conviction after having carefully examined the humongous fallacies in Islam that you still have not been able to explicate.

As regards idols in Islam, you don't even have the slightest clue as to your assertions. What is the BLACK STONE (al-Hajar al-Aswad) doing at the KAA'BA - do Muslims not venerate and KISS that stone when they visit Mecca? After having been a Muslim all your life, you obviously forgot the conspicuous idolatry of venerating the Hajar al-Aswad that has become an established tenet in Islam? Where did Allah instruct Muhammad to rever that STONE by kissing and venerating it?

Even Muhammad's close companions knew there was no justification for Muhammad's actions in venerating that stone. Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the black stone with these words: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Bk. 26, Num. 667). In another Hadith, after Umar kissed the stone, he said there was "no reason for us to do Ramal* (in Tawaf**) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Bk. 26, Num. 675). Muslims today doing the circumbulation during the pilgrimage kiss the black stone when close to it; or those who are far from touching the stone would raise their hands toward it.

* Ramal - walking fast around the Kaa'ba
** Tawaf - circling the Ka'bah seven times as an act of worship

You would only be serving the public your typical Islamic denials by excusing these actions of venerating a Black Stone as not depicting idolatry. Muhammad had no reason from Allah for his actions; and his companion Umar bin Al-Khattab testified that it was merely to "show off" to the pagans - which is the closest frank explanation in the Hadith for what Muslims practise today. If you're still bemused, you could please point where in the QUR'AN Allah instructed Muhammad to rever the black stone, thank you.

More Idolatry in Islam

Now recall that one of the things I mentioned earlier was that Muhammad had accused Christians of worshipping their priests and monks in shrines which they had built around their graves. That some of these things were partly true does not mean that they were a part of Biblical Christianity or even Judaism.

In all the Islamic texts where Muhammad made those allegation, there was not the slightest hint that he got that practice from the Bible - they were merely allegations Muhammad made in his seething hatred against Jews and Christians. Muslims today have taken Muhammad's baseless accusations to mean that is what the Bible teaches.

A few examples of Muhammad's allegations will suffice for the moment. There are EIGHT things I'd like to highlight for you in Muhammad's unfounded allegations. But first notice that a simple report was made to Muhammad concerning a picture which they had seen in an Abyssinian Church; and he not carry out any investigations of that simple report. Rather, he formulated his allegations and the began to rain Allah's curses on Jews and Christians.


(1) Muhammad's prejudiced judgement on a report he did not investigate

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Num. 1076::
'A'isha reported: Umm Habiba and Umm Salama made a mention
before the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) of a church
which they had seen in Abyssinia and which had pictures in it.
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When a
pious person amongst them (among the religious groups) dies
they build a place of worship on his grave, and then decorate it
with such pictures.
They would be the worst of creatures on the Day of judgment
in the sight of Allah.
- - - - - - - - -

(2) Muhammad used that excuse for quarrelling with the Jews

Malik Muwatta Book 45, Num. 45.5.17:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that
he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that
the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,
said was, 'May Allah fight the Jews and the christians. They took
the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration.
Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' "

(see also Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Num. 1080 & 1081)
- - - - - - - - -

(3) Muhammad "warned" Muslims by cursing Jews and Christians

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 56, Num. 660:
Narrated 'Aisha and Ibn 'Abbas: On his death-bed Allah's Apostle
put a sheet over his-face and when he felt hot, he would remove it
from his face. When in that state (of putting and removing the sheet)
he said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians for
they build places of worship at the graves of their prophets."
(By that) he intended to warn (the Muslim) from what they (i.e. Jews
and Christians) had done.
(see also S. Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 72, Num. 706)
- - - - - - - - - - - -

(4) Muhammad warned Muslims to NOT take his grave as a place of festivity

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book. 10, Num. 2037:
Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said:
Do not make your houses graves, and do not make my grave
a place of festivity. But invoke blessings on me, for your blessings
reach me wherever you may be.
- - - - - - - - - - -

(5) Muhammad feared Muslims would make his grave an idol for worship:

Malik Muwatta, Book 9, Num. 9.24.88
Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam from
Ata ibn Yasar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless
him and grant him peace, said,
"O Allah! Do not make my grave an idol that is worshipped.
The anger on those who took the graves of their Prophets
as places of prostration was terrible."

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Bk. 59, Num. 725:
Narrated Urwa bin Az-Zubair:  'Aisha said, "The Prophet said
during his fatal illness, "Allah cursed the Jews for they took
the graves of their prophets as places for worship." 'Aisha added,
"Had it not been for that (statement of the Prophet ) his grave
would have been made conspicuous. But he was afraid
that it might be taken as a place for worship."
- - - - - - - - - - -

(6) Muhammad warned Muslims to not pray facing the graves

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Num. 2121:
Abu Marthad al-Ghanawi reported Allah's Messenger
(may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not sit on the graves
and do not pray facing towards them.

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Num. 2122:
Abu Marthad al-Ghanawi reported Allah's Messenger
(may peace be upon him) as saying:
Do not pray facing towards the graves,
and do not sit on them.
- - - - - - - - - - -

(7) Muhammad forbade Muslims from building anything over graves

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2116:
Jabir said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)
forbade that the graves should be plastered
or they be used as sitting places (for the people),
or a building should be built over them.
- - - - - - - - - - -

(8.) Muhammad forbade Muslims associating graves with the mosques

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1083:
Jundub reported: I heard from the Apostle of Allah (may peace
be upon him) five days before his death and he said: I stand
acquitted before Allah that I took any one of you as friend,
for Allah has taken me as His friend, as he took Ibrahim as
His friend. Had I taken any one of my Ummah as a friend,
I would have taken Abu Bakr as a friend. Beware of those who
preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets
and righteous men as places of worship,
but you must not take graves as mosques;
I forbid you to do that.


Certainly, there are far more than the foregoing that I could outline for your consideration. The point is that you often come to the Forum and make so much accusative noise without carefully examining your own religion and ummah to see that Muslims have broken EVERY SINGLE warning that Muhammad gave his devotees.

I was tempted to post the more heinous idolatry of Islam which not many people know about; but perhaps you may just prompt a good reason for me to do so as we go along. For the moment, let me show you clear evidence to the fact that Muslims have consistently thrashed Muhammad's protests and warnings - and the very thing he feared about Islamic idolatry is what they continue to do to this very day!

Muslims have thrashed EVERY SINGLE warning Muhammad gave

Now here's the amazing thing that Muslims do and yet pretend that nobody knows about. I'll list the references to Muhammad's warnings, and then follow them closely with clear facts as to Muslims thrashing them with impunity - so that YOU, olabowale may decide for yourself!


Malik Muwatta Book 45, Num. 45.5.17:
. . . 'May Allah fight the Jews and the christians. They took
the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration.
Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' "


If Allah is going to fight the 'Jews' and 'Christians' for the sin described above, is he ready to fight Muslims as well for doing that exact same thing? For there is no denying that Muslims have very well taken the graves and burial sites of their prophets as places of worship. They have:

~ "decorated them (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Num. 1076:)

~ "built places of worship around graves"
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 56, Num. 660)

~ "made the graves places of festivities" [such as Hajj]
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book. 10, Num. 2037)

~ "taken the graves as mosques"
(Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1083)

~ taken Muhammad's grave as a "place of worship"
Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2116:)

~ taken the graves of some of their notable figures as above
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Bk. 59, Num. 725)

~ offered their prayers facing the graves"
(Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Num. 2122:)
(Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Num. 2121:)


It is now up to us to proffer clear and unambiguous pointers all the things listed above; and it is up to YOU, olabowale to either humbly acknowledge the FACT, or play the usual Islamic duplicity of DENYING them.

Here are a few examples:


#1. Muslims have decorated the graves and burial sites of religious figures in Islam (thus thrashing Muhammad's appeal to the contrary: [Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Num. 1076:]):

Peer Baba Shrine

Peer Budhan Ali Shah is regarded as a Muslim saint in Jammu, India. On the back side of the Civil Airport is famous Dargah of 'Peer Baba' (as he is popular called, and also regarded as the guardian of Jammu). Although his shrine is associated with the Sufism branch of Islam, it nonetheless is one of its few remaining stubs in Kashmiriyat and attracts devotees from all branches of Islam as well Hinduism and Sikhism. However, the Hindu and Sikh devotees vastly outnumber their Muslim brethren at the shrine when they gather every Thursday.

[img]http://jammukashmir.nic.in/tourism/jammu/30.jpg[/img]
         The Decorated Grave of Peer Budhan Ali Shah

[img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:UYyaCu47Sx9toM:http://jammu.nic.in/jammphoto/peerbaba1.jpg[/img]
click here to see a larger picture of the man praying at the decorated grave of  in exactly the Islamic style of supplicating Allah)


#2. Muslims also have "taken the graves as mosques" - again thrashing Muhammad's injunction against it, for example in Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1083. This is even where the whole colossal failure of many Muslims is emblazoned, and I'll take my time to share some from various locations around the world (so that you know it's not a localized mishap of some Muslims):

(a) Imam Reza Shrine

A notable figure in Islamic theology, Imam Reza was poisoned and died in 817 in Sanabad. He is believed to have been the only one of the twelve Imams buried in Iran; the place of his burial named Mashhad ( the place of martyrdom, located northeast of Tehran, Iran; between the two mountain ranges of Binalood and Hezarmasjed). This site has become the most holy place of Shi'ite Muslim pilgrimage. The Goharshad Mosque is located south of the Imam Reza Shrine; and the latter is also the repository where the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran stored the controversial enriched Uranium ("UF6 3.5 enriched" in experimental scales.

Pictures of Imam Reza tomb in the precincts of the Mosque

[img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:6zaONMEf4ZhGhM:http://www.anthro.uci.edu/html/Programs/Anthro_Money/Images/Z-shrine-image006.jpg[/img]



              (click here for a closer view of the tomb inside the Mosque.)

More Examples of Muslims Shrine venerations:


Muslim tradition also has a veneration to John the Baptist, such that a Tomb was erected in his honour inside the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. Scholars hold varying reports about this tradition: (a) some say only the head of John was found when the mosque was being refurbished; (b) others hold that his head is housed in a crypt below a mosque inthe old city of Sebastiya near nablus; (yet others claim the head was buried at Muwakir.

[img]http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/tombs/yahya_umayyad.jpg[/img]

Whatever the tradition held, the point is that there is a TOMB of "John" inside the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus.




Inside the Mosque of Sayyida Zaynab in Caira, Egypt is a TOMB built as a shrine where Muslims hold their worship:

[img]http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/zaynab_tomb.jpg[/img]


Despite the fact that Muslims are well aware of Muhammad's dying protests that they should not "plaster" any graves or "build anything over a grave" (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2116:), the direct opposite continue to be the vogue for them. Another example yet is the TOMB of Abu Bakr in Char Bakr Necropolis show below:

[img]http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/tombs/abu_bakr(char).jpg[/img]


Another notable Islamic figure is Abū abd-Allah Muhammad ibn al-`Arabi; and in his honour, Muslims built his TOMB encased in glass in the lower level of a MOSQUE at the bottom of Mount Qasyun in Damascus, as shown below:

[img]http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/tombs/ibn_arabi.jpg[/img]



The Citadel of Qaitbay in Alexandria was founded by Sultan Al-Ashraf Abou Anasr Saif El-Din (or, Sultan Qaitbay), another noted figure in Islam. His TOMB is in the "city of the dead" in Cairo, Egypt - and also housed in the tomb are said to be two footprints of prophet Muhammad preserved in black stone:

[img]http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/qait_bay_tomb.jpg[/img]



The Jade casket of King Timur (surrounded by tombs of members of his family and other prominent figures from Timurid rule in Central Asia) are seen housed in the Bibi Khan mosque in Samarqand, Uzbekistan. See picture below:

[img]http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/tombs/timur.jpg[/img]


Now, for those who are interested in viewing the FACT that these TOMBS are actually located INSIDE the MOSQUES, please [url=http://www.wasifmehdi.com/Images%20Gallery/Syria%20Easter%202007%20Trip/030407%20-%20Ziyarat%20Bab-e-Saghir/P4030002.JPG]click here[/url] to see the very large picture of an Imam standing in a mosque reading from a book (to his congregation), with the the TOMB of Hazrat Bilal housed inside the mosque and located just behind him.

@olabowale,

The foregoing simply demonstrates that you have no clues what you're trying to argue; but then I could forgive the fact that Muslims in their zeal to push what is bogus in Islam would always try to make some unfounded noise and allege that nobody knows Islam like them! That is simply what you have been trying to sweat out in your long treatise; but sorry, your arguments do not change the facts on ground.

Indeed, the MARIOLATRY of Catholicism is not Biblical Christianity - I need to remind you about that. I can't blame you much that you often mix them up - because that was our experience before my conversion! But while searching and investigating matters on my own without the usual exculpations of the mullah, I discovered the humongous duplicity of the Imams who will read one thing in the Qur'an and Hadiths, and then go directly against their own Religion and thrash the protests of their own Prophet before his death!

All the rest of the elderly argument you made should be regarded as the complaints of an elderly man. So, in due respect I would not want to send you any headaches and hot flashes. . . so that you may have strength of heart to read some more when I take your next complaints apart.

Enjoy for now.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

Have you seen any mosque or a muslim that ever erected an idol or any symbol and said it is reconciliable within Islam?

Do you remember your query, Olabowale? As quoted above, let me remind you by outlining them once again:

If I have seen:
(a) any mosque; OR
(b) a muslim

that ever ERECTED:

(a) an IDOL; . . .or
(b) any SYMBOL

. . . and said it is reconciliable within Islam?

And my bold assertive answer was:

Certainly, yes I have.

[img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:UYyaCu47Sx9toM:http://jammu.nic.in/jammphoto/peerbaba1.jpg[/img]

(reminder: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-86405.128.html#msg1618540)

I hope after you go through the above, you would carefully choose your words and not present your usual bloviates which you often mistake for "discussion".

Cheers.

@pilgrim.1 i hail u darl, infact you are great

@ Pligrim.1: Please proof to me from Qur'an and Sunnah/hadith, the two Islamic sources of guidance, that idol and image worshipping is reconsiliable or acceptable. You see, we are aware that people mix culture into Islam. However, Islamic culture stands alone. By its standing alone, it means that it is not all aspects of arab culture that can be called Islamic! Indeed, not all aspect of Makkan or Madinan cultures can be classified as Islamic.

Please note that anything regional, that Qur'an and hadith/Sunnah disagree with or there is irreconciliability, between them, is unISLAMIC! Therefore, the practices of making a shrine out of the burial place of a holy person, is out of the rules and guidelines of ISLAM.

Pligrim.1, you must agree with me that the holiest of Muslims from the beginning of the Islam of Muhammad (AS), must be Muhammad himself! Yet, it is not permissable to worship him! The history of Islam shows us that immediately that it was known to the community, in madina, that the holy prophet passed away, many amongst the companions (ra), were trying to keep hush-hush. It was in this state that it was reported that Abu Bakr (ra), the person assumed leadership immediately said to the community, that whoever is worshipping Muhammad, know that Muhammad is dead, but whoever is worshipping Allah (God Almighty Creator), know that He is EVERLIVING! This statement alone, culled out of the verse of Qur'an (If Muhammad/the prophet dies, will you turn away, knowing that he dies just in the same as those prophets who have passed (I just paraphrased)), was the voice of reason that brought the community to its senses, even though they were in the saddest state of their religious experience.

For further illustration, when the present Oba of Lagos was interviewed, by a Nigerian Newsman in America, he was asked how he could go through the Ifa (Oracle/voo doo) procedures of his coronation. Knowing fully well that he is a Muslim and things like that are not part of Islam. His answer of the makkan pagans usage of the same ifa to know the where about of the prophet during his Hijra from Makka to Madina was the single indication to many that he knows little or nothing in Islam. Though he carries islamic projection.

Just like you, your lack of knowledge of islam, in the true spiritual sense of it, is your reason for convertion out of it and really the only reason you are using the actions of deviants to illustrate true Islam. While I say this about you, I also have to commend you on your pointing out to the christians of nairaland the website you deemed as propaganda, bending the rules to make Islam look bad. Indeed the whole of those websites are bad.

You will not see a muslim argue with you about the birth and miracles of Jesus son of Mary. Neither will you find any muslim to say that Jesus will not come back, to earth. These are in the Qur'an and to disagree will mean disagreeing with the Qur'an itself!

While you argue with me, please show clarity in your judgement. I never will say that all muslims practice Islam correctly. Islam is woven into cultures and most have abandoned the pure Islam. I am one of them. This is why we all seeking guidance and ask for forgiveness at the same time.

Again, show me from Qur'an and Sunnah/Hadith that it is permissable to set up image/idol. Having pictures hanging in ones home is even frowned upon in Islam. Yet, Islam is not boring. You can still have exciting life.


@ Afuah; Otisen. Please, do not make the head of my head swell for nothing, because it will be deflated, as soon as I send my rebuttal, InshaAllah.

To all enjoy.

@pilgrim

I no fit laugh o my sister. . Did Jesus read the bible or the book of the Elias? Was he given the bible or the gospel?

@babs787,
Hehehhoho. . Abeg, babs787. . . you wan make water comot for ma eye with laff!

Really, oya answer my question and no take style waka ooooo

Wey your answers to my kweshuns?

cunny woman . You know say you misfired there

Anyway, I might be off for a week - enough time for you to harrass people on the Forum with more "Periklytos" and plagiarism.

You dey take style run abi just like pataki and some have been doing. I go dey here dey wait you o. Regards to that your lawyer sister and your brother

Enjoy o jare!!

You too my sister


Please I read all your lenghty rejoinders with regards to erection of images in mosques. I will be very grateful if you can provide me be it Hadith or Quranic verse that supports same and if you cant, then you will agree that Islam does not support same.

@pilgrim

I do hope you agree that Jesus never read the bible and was not given same.

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim

I do hope you agree that Jesus never read the bible and was not given same.

Was that meant to be a joke to hide behind another excuse?

babs787:

Really, oya answer my question and no take style waka ooooo

There we go again!

Babs, you no dey shame? Are you not old enough to keep playing this game of "oya answer me" when indeed you always scoot off a question and would never seek to address any issue until you 'tiff' material to plagiarize and call it YOUR OWN?

Please, look for another gimmick - that one is far too worn out now and should be dropped. If you don't have answers to the questions I offer after responding to your queries, then simply crawl past my repostes and don't further embarrass your duplicity.

babs787:

cunny woman . You know say you misfired there

On what exactly?

babs787:

You dey take style run abi just like pataki and some have been doing. I go dey here dey wait you o. Regards to that your lawyer sister and your brother

Take style "run" to where? Ohh, I see - that I would be off the Forum for a while as previously announced so you could have enough time to harrass readers with your plagiarisms and characteristic denials, abi?

Well, it's unfortunate that I'll be off for a while. But I'll pop in after my exams and see the rough play you've been up to in my absence.

babs787:

You too my sister

I hear.

babs787:

Please I read all your lenghty rejoinders with regards to erection of images in mosques. I will be very grateful if you can provide me be it Hadith or Quranic verse that supports same and if you can't, then you will agree that Islam does not support same.

I'm sorry to observe that you really did not read my rejoinders while supposing you did.

After addressing the caterwauls from olabowale, I made it clear that the idolatry he had accused against Christians are non-issues which are unBiblical. In simple English: those things are not the practices of Biblical Christianity - so olabowale was trying to cheat behind the counter by making such unfair allegations.

In like manner, after having addressed his concerns comprehensively, I pointed out the idolatry of the BLACK STONE. I quickly skimmied through the threads to see where either you or olabowame would have proffered an answers as to me questions on that subject - but no, you typically never have answers that are clear enough to see in Islam.

The reason why I sent those replies to olaboale was to make him understand that if there's any major religious besides the Roman catholic Church that has thrashed every single warning given them, it is MUSLIMS. Actually, I know of more than 875 mosques around the world where such things are being practiced - but I haven't read any sane answers from olabowale to that, other than his usual illiterate noise in most of the threads.

Perhaps, you could show me something cogent from the Qur'an as to the idolatry of the BLACK STONE that Muhammad instigated and yet we haven't read where Allah specifically asked him to venerate that stone.

And what about his companion's declaration that the whole exercise was merely to show off to the PAGANS and there was NO NEED for the veneration of the stone?

These are simple straightforward concerns I was looking forward to olabowale addressing. Alas!

Anyhow, cheers.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@ Pligrim.1: Please proof to me from Qur'an and Sunnah/hadith, the two Islamic sources of guidance, that idol and image worshipping is reconsiliable or acceptable. You see, we are aware that people mix culture into Islam.

Unfortunately, you sound typically like the Muslim apologists who first wastes his strength on issues he can't handle before settling down to do his homework. It is not up to me to show "proof" to you from Qur'an or Hadiths that idolatry of any sort is 'reconcilable' as an established tenet in Islam - rather, it is up to Muslims to present clear explanations to the irreconcilable ones already tendered with clear evidence.

You haven't offered any explanations to the FACT that the veneration of the BLACK STONE (al-Hajar al-Aswad) was Muhammad's personal and choice idolatry. He had not divine injunction from Allah to kiss and rever that stone; and none of his companions had any such divine convictions that Muhammad's actions were authentically part of what Allah had requested of him.

Olabowale, where in the Qur'an did Muhammad get his ideas of the black stone veneration from?

Have you forgotten that even Umar bin Al-Khattab specifically attested to the fact that he only kissed that stone because he saw Muhammad do so - otherwise he would NOT have kissed the stone! Further on, he went so far as to mention that the veneration of that black stone was simply to SHOW OFF to the pagans - and not because Allah told them to practise such! Read Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Bk. 26, Num. 667 & 675.

Unfortunately, that idolatrous example of Muhammad spread quickly among Muslims (who, for the most part, do not have a mind to think); and consequently it became an established Islamic rite - not because it was an injunction by Allah; but simply because Muhammad had no reason at all to have exhibited it other than SHOWING OFF to the PAGANS (read the attestation by Umar bin Al-Khattab again)!!!

Now, if there's anyone who owes us an explanation about that bogus and glaring idolatry, then it should have been Muhammad himself, his companions, or Muslims who have no clues WHY that became an established rite in the first place!

olabowale:

However, Islamic culture stands alone. By its standing alone, it means that it is not all aspects of arab culture that can be called Islamic! Indeed, not all aspect of Makkan or Madinan cultures can be classified as Islamic.

Please carefully consider how contradictory you sounded there. If Islamic culture stands alone, what then are you confusing it by dribbling in the idea that some aspects of Arab culture are part of Islamic culture?

What is Islamic culture - and how does it differe from Arab culture?

You seem to be very quickly meandering between your own postulations. My dear sir, you may not have heard the stale news - but what you call "Islamic culture" is hugely synonymous with Arab culture: QED. Islamic is predicated on an Arab 'prophet'; its Qur'an is hammered in the Arabic language (which all Muslims are required to learn);

olabowale:

Please note that anything regional, that Qur'an and hadith/Sunnah disagree with or there is irreconciliability, between them, is unISLAMIC! Therefore, the practices of making a shrine out of the burial place of a holy person, is out of the rules and guidelines of ISLAM.

You may claim that, but hold on.

What has happened to the veneration of the BLACK STONE?

Muhammad have thrashed the very warnings that Muhammad issued against the idolatry of graves. My questions was, if Muhammad pronounced Allah's destruction on the 'Jews' and 'Christians' who did so, would Allah be willing at the same time to destroy the Muslims who have done exactly the same thing? If NOT, why NOT?

And to claim a different status for Muslims on that idolatry is certainly a colossal hypocrisy on your part. I hope you would not come back to confirm it.

Regards.

After reading the last rebutal from Pilgrim.1 i couldnt help but be thoroughly ashamed on Olabowale's behalf.

davidylan:

After reading the last rebutal from Pilgrim.1 i couldnt help but be thoroughly ashamed on Olabowale's behalf.

Lol, davidylan. . I was just wondering if I should simply switch to Zuma games. . . or sit for a few more minustes and walk these guys to the cleaners with their Qur'an in hand!

Yeah! sounds more exciting to do the latter. So, I'm going to seek out some mis-yaning they've made, and then we go see small drama.

Regards.

@ pilgrim.1
I just dey read dey enjoy the drama as they bluster and fumble with the very quran they claim to hold so dear until the insecure among them either turn tail and run or revert to the usual "she is attacking islam" mantra.

God bless you very plenty.

@davidylan,

davidylan:

until the insecure among them either turn tail and run or revert to the usual "she is attacking islam" mantra.

Hehe. . I especially like that amusing whinging form the insecure ones! They are the ones that usually send me signing off for a good while before I get less busy with work to come slap 'em a couple more times!

davidylan:

God bless you very plenty.

Enjoy, my brother. Bless you more.